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Bragi
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USA
62 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2019 :  07:50:27  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Here's a rough draft of a human origins chart that I'm working on. It's partially cannon with some logical connections added.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7x11ckag1w3nqsj/Origins.pdf


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Bragi of Erin

Edited by - Bragi on 16 Jan 2019 08:50:22

Lord Karsus
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Posted - 13 Jan 2019 :  23:34:09  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-That's some good work.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Jan 2019 :  18:24:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't link the Azuposi with the Illuskans. Granted the Metahel apparently showed up there from somewhere to the "northwest" of the Pasocada basin, and they very much resemble the northmen, but the two cultures aren't necessarily interbreeding, and just how long those Metahel and Azuposi have been side by side is questionable (it may very well be less than a century).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 14 Jan 2019 :  18:32:56  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But then again. The northmen could have appeared in the trackless sea and while a group sailed east to tethyr and north to the Moonshaes and then onto illusk, another group could have sailed north and West to maztica. Same origin, but very different people.

I have the turami and talfir related. The turami ancestors were enslaved by the okoth sarrukh and when that empire broke apart and sarrukh fled to merrshaulk and isstosseffifil they brought the humans with them. The talfir are one such offshoot (and so are the tashlutans probably)

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Bragi
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Posted - 15 Jan 2019 :  00:40:04  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have updated the draft with all of the missing groups that I could find. I have numbered each relationship and I'm planning on going through and examining each one in subsequent posts. Many of these have already been discussed before so I'll be referencing prior discussions.

I anticipate updating several of them particularly the ones that have already had some variation. I may use different colors along the connections to indicate status such as consensus, disproven, and unofficial. I want to go through all of them first and then focus on the ones that may need to be updated.

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sleyvas
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7684 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2019 :  22:51:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

But then again. The northmen could have appeared in the trackless sea and while a group sailed east to tethyr and north to the Moonshaes and then onto illusk, another group could have sailed north and West to maztica. Same origin, but very different people.

I have the turami and talfir related. The turami ancestors were enslaved by the okoth sarrukh and when that empire broke apart and sarrukh fled to merrshaulk and isstosseffifil they brought the humans with them. The talfir are one such offshoot (and so are the tashlutans probably)



Actually, this would more imply that the northmen came from northwest of Anchorome OR that the northmen came from somewhere else, went to northwest of Anchorome, and then went to Anchorome where they met the Azuposi and started calling themselves Metahel.... so basically those 3 land masses west or north of Anchorome (and/or potentially portions of northern Anchorome itself). Of course, that's all from a single entry from city of gold talking about "the Metahel" and assuming that the Metahel and the Northmen are related. But given the descriptions of the Metahel, I'm not throwing the idea out the window.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
7684 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2019 :  23:09:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

I have updated the draft with all of the missing groups that I could find. I have numbered each relationship and I'm planning on going through and examining each one in subsequent posts. Many of these have already been discussed before so I'll be referencing prior discussions.

I anticipate updating several of them particularly the ones that have already had some variation. I may use different colors along the connections to indicate status such as consensus, disproven, and unofficial. I want to go through all of them first and then focus on the ones that may need to be updated.



Yeah, I like that version more for the northmen piece. You basically have included some places that are unofficial but that people here at the keep have made up OR that they found elsewhere (Myrmidune and Aurune being the land masses west and north of Anchorome as unofficial names that have been getting passed around).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Jan 2019 23:29:29
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Bragi
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Posted - 16 Jan 2019 :  20:25:42  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Relationship #1 - Human Genesis

According to the Grand History of the Realms by Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood, ape-like humans existed during the Days of Thunder. (-35,000 DR to -30,000 DR). The map on page 6 shows these primitive human tribes living on the southwestern continent. Page 30 has an entry labeled "pilgrimage of the tabaxi" where the home of humanity is named Katashaka. This also happens to be the unnamed continent on page 6. Thus, this is the foundation for humans native to Toril. I have placed them at the root of the chart indicated in racial box #1 [Katashaka People]. The origin of the species likely occurred in the early period of the Days of Thunder or prior. I think it is reasonable to assign a date of circa -35,000 DR for the modern human species. These Katashaka people are described as cave dwellers with primitive tools, similar to our real-world cavemen. They worshiped the "spirits of Katashaka."

I will be indicating on the chart that this race is established in cannon.

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Bragi of Erin
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Bragi
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Posted - 17 Jan 2019 :  01:08:50  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Relationship #2 - Katashaka People to Mhairshaulk and Northern Maztican People

Much of the information on the early human races comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" by Brian R. James. This fan made material was the pre-cursor to the later "the Grand History of the Realms" and as such is not strictly cannon; however, it's probably as close to cannon as one can get. The entry under -29,500 DR is the one that I used to base this relationship on.

quote:

In the south, the fragility of the first human civilizations was evident as the forces of the dreadful Tarrasque pushed southward from the Black Sea. The Lopango, Eshowe, Thinguth, and Tabaxi tribes were conquered, their culture subsumed by the newly formed empire of Katashaka. Only the humans of northern Maztica, under the protection of the feathered serpent Qotal, escaped enslavement.



This is the first evidence in a long line of history that the conquest and enslavement of humanity was the rule for early humanity. The arrival of the Tarrasque was a major event which triggered the branching of several races of humanity. My interpretation of this is slightly different than what is given in the source. It has the northern Maztica people already established before the arrival of the Tarrasque. I have reversed that slightly here by having the Tarrasque as the triggering for the first waves of human migration. I speculate that Qotal instigated the exodus of a group of humans to protect them from the Tarrasque when it arrived.

I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical.

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Bragi of Erin
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7684 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2019 :  14:04:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

Relationship #2 - Katashaka People to Mhairshaulk and Northern Maztican People

Much of the information on the early human races comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" by Brian R. James. This fan made material was the pre-cursor to the later "the Grand History of the Realms" and as such is not strictly cannon; however, it's probably as close to cannon as one can get. The entry under -29,500 DR is the one that I used to base this relationship on.

quote:

In the south, the fragility of the first human civilizations was evident as the forces of the dreadful Tarrasque pushed southward from the Black Sea. The Lopango, Eshowe, Thinguth, and Tabaxi tribes were conquered, their culture subsumed by the newly formed empire of Katashaka. Only the humans of northern Maztica, under the protection of the feathered serpent Qotal, escaped enslavement.



This is the first evidence in a long line of history that the conquest and enslavement of humanity was the rule for early humanity. The arrival of the Tarrasque was a major event which triggered the branching of several races of humanity. My interpretation of this is slightly different than what is given in the source. It has the northern Maztica people already established before the arrival of the Tarrasque. I have reversed that slightly here by having the Tarrasque as the triggering for the first waves of human migration. I speculate that Qotal instigated the exodus of a group of humans to protect them from the Tarrasque when it arrived.

I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical.



One thing to bear in mind here, The people who are known as "Mazticans" are interlopers who came along from the north. The Payit would then be those who followed Qotal north from Katashaka, and they eventually broke into other separate cultures it seems. Where and when the Mazticans came onto the scene would be up for debate.

I'm relooking again at your chart, and at 62 it shows what appears a link from Azuposi to Illuskans. I would not recommend this or would like to hear why you would link them. I'd more recommend linking the Illuskans to the Northmen you show at 9. I'd also put links from the Illuskans and Rus to Rashemi and Arkaiuns (btw, misspelling on Arkaiuns).


On Nimbral, I'd put a link from Halruaa to Nimbral instead of from spelljammer to Nimbral. The humans of Nimbral appear to be Halruaan exiles that worshipped Leira. They've since had contact with spelljammers, but they specifically don't bring them into the country, etc... from what's written.


On Lantanna, I am intrigued by your linking them to spelljammer, and I wonder what drove that idea. They're noted as having green eyes, copper hair, and parchment colored skin in races of Faerun, so they've specifically stayed racially pure it seems like. That may be due to isolation. But, as far as I know, they're not currently linked as a port for spelljamming. Given the hair/eye/skin colorations, I wouldn't be surprised if they were a group who worshipped the Celtic god Goibhnie (but whether that was Northmen who travelled east, pre-Talfir folk, time travellers, planar interlopers, or spelljammers that landed on and took over this island... can't say).

Also, as long as we're talking semi-canon stuff, I'd recommend including Seethyr's stuff for Lopango. He introduces kind of another "name" or ethnicity for the "Green Folk"... one which is less savage. They worship a sun god who lives "amongst" them if you consider that he has his own city that priests serve him at, and the people live elsewhere. These people are known as the Natican, and their "sun god" is Intiri. However, there should still be the "green folk" who live in the jungle, use poisoned darts, and worship nature gods. There might be cultural differences between those who live in cities and those who live more savage/tribal lifestyles, but their stock is probably similar.

BTW, these people worship Intiri the sun god, but the Kolan people worship Tezca the sun god, and both cultures are very near one another. The people of Kolan are noted as "some of the cultural traits of the Maztican Peoples have blended with the racial heritage of the green folk". Unlike the Mazticans, a chief difference is that the Kolans don't practice human sacrifice. Still, it would appear like the Kolan people turned against Intiri at some point to worship a more warlike and evil sun god (Tezca). This may be why the Lopangan peninsula has little contact with the north, because of religious differences that cause conflict.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Jan 2019 14:12:22
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
62 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2019 :  00:11:36  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your feedback, all good points that I'll reference in the discussion when I get to those. I want to go over each relationship first and check off the ones that there is general consensus on and then go back and re-arrange the others based upon what is known and what can be logically inferred. That way I don't have to spend my time creating many iterations of the chart. After I have reviewed all of them then I plan on updating the chart based upon everyone's comments to a version 1 and more if necessary.

I do plan in incorporating the great work that has been done by the Maztica Alive group and other groups including the Lopango information that you've referenced.

I believe there was some basis that I found for the Azuposi to Illuskan connection but I need to review all of it again when I get there because I definitely could be wrong about that as well.

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Bragi of Erin
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
62 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2019 :  19:54:32  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Relationship #3 Katashaka People to Lung People

Similar to relationship #2 this information also comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms."

The following is listed under the heading -24,000 DR
quote:

The celestial dragon T'ien Lung led a tribe of humans north and east to settle among the modern day lands of Semphar, Skalhoond Forest, and The Firepeaks. These humans became known as Lung, the ancestors of the Tuigan, Shou, Wang, and other human ethnicities of Kara-Tur and the Far East.



I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical.

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Bragi of Erin
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
62 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2019 :  20:02:17  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm relooking again at your chart, and at 62 it shows what appears a link from Azuposi to Illuskans. I would not recommend this or would like to hear why you would link them. I'd more recommend linking the Illuskans to the Northmen you show at 9. I'd also put links from the Illuskans and Rus to Rashemi and Arkaiuns (btw, misspelling on Arkaiuns).



I plan on revisiting this but while I have it in front of me I'm just putting this here for now.

The connection between the Azuposi to the Illuskans is written in "A Grand History of the Realms" the fan created one by Brian R. James. It is on page 11.

quote:

In the wake of the Sundering, many humans of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faerun or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By -3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.


I'd really like to keep it because of the great respect that I have for his work and the contributions that he's made in smoothing out and filling in a lot of continuity.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin

Edited by - Bragi on 18 Jan 2019 20:04:17
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