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Sylmaer
Acolyte

Canada
3 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2018 :  09:50:45  Show Profile Send Sylmaer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, I've been doing some work changing a few things (minor so far) of the pantheon, based on and inspired by a few scrolls from these halls.
The main thing I'd like input on is my rearrangement of deities to be 18 Greater Powers (plus 4 Elemental Lords) with servants (Exarchs) and Lesser Power allies. I also changed Lesser Powers to include Intermediates if they work with a Greater Power, and Exarchs include "weaker" Lesser Powers (or at least my perception) and demi-powers.

The list I've come up with: (Greater Power: Exarch; Lesser Power allies)
Good:
Tyr- Siamorphe; Ilmater, Torm
Amaunator- Waukeen?; Bahamut?
Chauntea- ?
Lathander- ?
Selune- Finder Wyvernspur, Shaundakul;
Sune- Lliira, Sharess;

Neutral:
Mystra- Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Malyk; Azuth
Kelemvor- Jergal;
Oghma- Milil, Deneir; Gond
Silvanus- Shiallia, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurue, Nobanion, Eldath; Mielikki
Tempus- Garagos, The Red Knight, Uthgar, Valkur; Tymora
Cyric- Mask?;

Evil:
Bane- Abbathor, Fzoul Chembryl, Maglubiyet, Hruggek, Talona; Loviatar
Asmodeus- Gargauth; Tiamat
Shar- Hoar (I was thinking of "splitting" him); Beshaba?
Myrkul- Bhaal?;
Talos- Ulutiu; Malar, Umberlee, Auril
Moander- ? (Really unsure, but wanted another one...)

Edited by - Sylmaer on 18 Dec 2018 09:53:52

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1328 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2018 :  10:53:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bahamut is an ally of Torm and Tyr in canon. I don' remember any other allies for Amaunathor...

So, far I like it tho.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8031 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2018 :  13:57:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as allies go, have you checked Faiths and Avatars & Powers and Pantheons & Demihuman Deities? It specifically lists allies. That being said, it seems like what you are trying to build out are subordinates, not allies. That does appear to be the latest trend I'm seeing, but honestly, in my personal viewpoint, I don't like that structure. It owes too much to basically a fealty type system, and when a higher power falls, all his or her subordinates are suddenly in disarray. I've actually taken to liking the concept that many of the lesser gods have started following a structure similar to what Velsharoon did (i.e. supporting multiple powerful gods), but most of them would actually serve deities that are on good terms with one another. Some lesser deities may also create minor alliances amongst themselves (such as beings such as Mask and Leira). Some may "serve" a greater power, but also work as a "mercenary" to other powers, putting their clergy available to service if there is a need. Also, some deities might serve other greater powers within other pantheons (for instance, Kereska Wonderbringer the draconic deity may serve Mystra but also serve Bahamut in the draconic pantheon).

I'd personally steer clear of having Myrkul and Moander as a greater power.

To put some food for thought out there, I'm going to list some examples of what I'm talking about


The Red Knight - serves Tempus as a goddess of military strategy, serves Mystra as a goddess of spell strategy and defense
Finder Wyvernspur - serves Oghma as a god of music, serves Mystra as a god of song magic
Mielikki - serves both Chauntea and Silvanus in similar ways
Nobanion - serves Silvanus as a "wild god" and Tyr as a "noble" god
Lurue - serves Selune as a strange relation to the magic of women (and thus a unicorn's tendency towards women), and serves Silvanus as a "fey" god... but also has multiple "allies" amongst greater powers as well, such as Lathander, Mystra, Chauntea, Sune. She might fall heavily out of the "serving" a specific deity and be simply a "natural" entity that most of the good gods favor and help.
Valkur - serves Tempus as a god of naval strategy, but serves Selune as an ocean deity affected by the tides
Leira - serves Mystra as a goddess of illusions, but "secretly" "serves" Cyric as a goddess of lies (in truth her serving him is more like a virus trying to usurp its host, for in my homebrew Leira WAS the Cyrinishad much as how Mask WAS Godsbane). Has an on again/off again relationship with Mask that resembles two lovers.
Deneir - serves Oghma as a god of scribes, writing, etc.. , but serves Mystra as a god of symbol and scroll magics and a god of spellbooks.
Uthgar - serves Tempus as a barbarian god, but also serves Silvanus as a wild god.
Loviatar - serves Bane as a dominatrix personae, but Asmodeus as a god of sin
[b]Malar -[b] serves Talos as a force of wildness, but has many associates amongst dark gods that he may take "odd jobs" for

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3226 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2018 :  23:59:09  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I am of the opinion that a continental-wide pantheon of multiple cultures just is a silly idea (no offense against you, didn't mean it that way). Yeah, there's plenty of cultural diffusion and trade and population migration, but regional and/or cultural pantheons just make a lot more sense.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5492 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2018 :  01:41:04  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We are of course taking a "top-down" view of religious worship in Faerun. In my Realms, the "standard" gods of such broad-based portfolios as war, nature, the sun/birth, death etc. all have regional names (especially in more southern reaches). They are the same deities, but nomenclature varies.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Sylmaer
Acolyte

Canada
3 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2018 :  02:13:15  Show Profile Send Sylmaer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I definitely see there being many different variations and cults, but for right now I'm wanting to establish the baseline/generic form that others deviate from. I also like Sleyvas' take on things and so, I think what I have right now will just be the main allegiances and who's domain they live in. And yes, the Exarchs are specifically subordinates; however, for the Lesser Powers it would vary but more so than canon. I also would imagine that one of them would rise up in power should their Greater Power die/disappear. OF course, then you wouldn't get the case where you can kill a god and take their powers but I prefer it because if a Greater Power were to die one of the Lesser Powers tied to them would rise up to take the spot.

As for Myrkul and Moander being Greater Powers, they were added to just fill the arbitrary "18 Greater Powers"... does anyone know of a deity that might fit better for NE/CE/CN?
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

892 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2018 :  13:07:47  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul has always been a Greater Power. Moander, on the other hand, is just a lesser power.

Bhaal serves Bane, not Myrkul.

Why the demotion for Maglubiyet? Ol' Fire-Eyes is a supreme racial pantheon head, while Bane is just another human god. I'm not sure Maglubiyet's even worshipped among humans. I certainly don't think racial deities from other pantheons have any business answering to a human god.

Tiamat also already has a boss (Io), so why's she answering to the Dark Lord of Nessus?

A lot of these groupings seem really arbitrary. Mask hates Cyric, Ulutiu is nothing like Talos or the Gods of Fury, Waukeen and Bahamut have nothing in common with Amaunator (and why's he good? Ammy is LN and with Lathander there, there's no real need for another sun god), Cyric is Chaotic Evil, Bhaal and Myrkul obviate Kelemvor's existence (Bhaal being the death god and Myrkul being Lord of the Dead, which means Kelemvor's just taking up space), and the Lord Below should not be a god if Azuth yet lives (and he conflicts with Bane; the Dark Lord rules over the plane that personifies Lawful Evil while Bane is just a Lawful Evil tyrant deity, nevermind that the Dark Lord is THE tyrant).
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8031 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2018 :  13:41:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Myrkul has always been a Greater Power. Moander, on the other hand, is just a lesser power.

Bhaal serves Bane, not Myrkul.

Why the demotion for Maglubiyet? Ol' Fire-Eyes is a supreme racial pantheon head, while Bane is just another human god. I'm not sure Maglubiyet's even worshipped among humans. I certainly don't think racial deities from other pantheons have any business answering to a human god.

Tiamat also already has a boss (Io), so why's she answering to the Dark Lord of Nessus?

A lot of these groupings seem really arbitrary. Mask hates Cyric, Ulutiu is nothing like Talos or the Gods of Fury, Waukeen and Bahamut have nothing in common with Amaunator (and why's he good? Ammy is LN and with Lathander there, there's no real need for another sun god), Cyric is Chaotic Evil, Bhaal and Myrkul obviate Kelemvor's existence (Bhaal being the death god and Myrkul being Lord of the Dead, which means Kelemvor's just taking up space), and the Lord Below should not be a god if Azuth yet lives (and he conflicts with Bane; the Dark Lord rules over the plane that personifies Lawful Evil while Bane is just a Lawful Evil tyrant deity, nevermind that the Dark Lord is THE tyrant).



Myrkul wasn't a greater power after he died, had his portfolios usurped by Cyric, and then those given to Kelemvor. I can't see him coming back after a century and just usurping Kelemvor's power. In fact, it very much begs the understanding of what exactly IS Myrkul's role now? I'm not wanting to see him gone, BUT he's no longer lord/judge of the dead. He's actually now the god of "death", which actually was a portfolio of Bhaal's. So, as I see it, Myrkul's back but simply as the god of death, and Bhaal's back but simply as a god of murder. The two are sharing what used to be a single lesser god's power. From a gameplay standpoint, it doesn't affect much other than I wouldn't expect to find their temples all over the place. I also would expect that Velsharoon and Myrkul might be contesting for worshippers. Velsharoon would likely heavily be working the "I'm Mystra's loyal servant" angle to get shrines in any temple to either her or Azuth (meanwhile, personally, in my homebrew he'd be strong anywhere that the United Tharchs of Toril exist <especially transferred Soorenar>, for the Thayan Exiles would have felt a strong kinship to him in Abeir, and he would have aided their culture significantly).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

892 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2018 :  00:56:06  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cyric only usurped Myrkul's dominion over the dead. As far as I know, his portfolios of dusk, decay, old age, corruption, exhaustion and autumn are still floating around.

I like that Velsharoon idea.

Edited by - LordofBones on 22 Dec 2018 00:58:28
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3021 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2018 :  01:08:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Myrkul still has the archetypal decay, exhaustion, withering, etc... aspects of death in his portfolio. He seems to be about the phenomenon of natural death as a whole, including the natural causes that may lead to it (such as old age) and what comes after. Bhaal is about violent death.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8031 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2018 :  13:38:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to throw out there, I'd debate on whether anyone else didn't pick up say "corruption". The original intent for the use of the word was to meant as similar to decay (the body corrupting after death), and the difference between it and decay would be debatable. But my first thoughts when I hear corruption are entirely different. For me the first thing I think of with corruption is mobsters and politicians. I would call that out for clarity's sake.

Also, BOTH Moander and Myrkul held decay and corruption, and Moander specifically held Rotting Death. I would conclude that Moander was the holder of these and when Moander wasn't around Myrkul was taking advantage. I may be wrong though, but I think somewhere in 5e it was established that Moander is actually back (i.e. not just a maybe). Throw into this mix that WotC has put forward that there's a temple to Kyuss beneath the Galenas. Velsharoon had temples still, specifically in Mulmaster. Kiaransalee is also back, and there's hints of the Raven Queen as a possible Entrant to FR.

That being said, I've held for a while now that multiple gods can claim certain portfolios with no issue (i.e. there can be more than one god of war, etc...). However, there can only be one "ultimate judge of the dead" per pantheon, UNLESS the god willingly shares the power with another. For Faerun, its Kelemvor. For Mulhorand, its Osiris..... that is assuming that one's not aliasing the other. Along these lines, we have Kelemvor loving Mystra, goddess of magic. We have Osiris loving Isis, goddess of magic. The Mystra who has come back however may NOT be the Mystra that was murdered. In fact, there's many of us who believe that its Mystra I and not Midnight. One person also put forth an idea last year that I've fervently become drawn to, and that's that Midnight was herself tied to the Raven Queen (a being that had "forgotten" herself) prior to being raised as a goddess. After the goddess was murdered, the corpse was possibly "reborn" as the Raven Queen. In this idea, it would have Kelemvor in love with the Raven Queen and sharing his rule with her at his side. I personally like this concept, though it may make others wretch. In this concept, I would take it that all three individuals (Kelemvor, Cyric, and Midnight) were some kind of "manifestation" of some earlier or foreign power created possibly by Ao with the full intentions of messing with the dark three (for instance, Midnight tied to the Raven Queen, Cyric possible tied to Valigan Thirdborn who may be Loki, and Kelemvor possibly as some "jaguar god" of the dead of the True World/Maztica). Along these lines, these deities may have even have been valid and alive in the True World in other pantheons, and Ao simply used the ToT to give them a means to come over. Ao may have also introduced similar "reborn" beings back into the world in other pantheons as well prior to the ToT, for beneath Unther we here of a lamia noble named Ereshkigal and we also hear of a genasi in Unther using the name Ningal.

Along these lines, in Untheric symbology there were a king and queen of the realm of the dead, with debate over which was the more powerful. Those were and Nergal and Ereshkigal. Neither could necessarily be seen as good entities, and the love between them appears to not be true love. Still, it evokes an imagery that I like. Personally, I like the idea of "mirroring" this amongst Velsharoon and Kiaransalee, with possibly Velsharoon aiding Kiaransalee's return simply because he needs an ally against invasive enemies like Orcus. Being there is no love lost between Kiaransalee and Orcus, the two gods may have something of a marriage of convenience. To add a further "spurious gossip" to all of these, there will be those who whisper that the Raven Queen, Kiaransalee, the Queen of Air and Darkness, and even Auril are all linked entities who have become "confused". There may even be rumors by some of this "Queen of the Dead" sharing part of the year with Kelemvor and part of the year with Velsharoon similar to the stories of Persephone and Inanna having to sit the throne of the dead during winter. To this I'd work with Markustay's idea of what he was calling the Regalia of Winter that is some kind of malevolent intelligence that actually "infects" some gods via items (I might recommend renaming this the "Regalia of Death's Cold Dark Embrace" to mirror the idea that these things are tied to the powers of death, cold winds, and darkness). Why do all this? Well, because its fun.




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Dec 2018 13:41:23
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1328 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2018 :  14:04:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Why the demotion for Maglubiyet? Ol' Fire-Eyes is a supreme racial pantheon head, while Bane is just another human god. I'm not sure Maglubiyet's even worshipped among humans. I certainly don't think racial deities from other pantheons have any business answering to a human god.

Tiamat also already has a boss (Io), so why's she answering to the Dark Lord of Nessus?



In 4e, Bane beat both, Maglubiyet and Tiamat into submission cuz "Humanocentrism in fantasy is Tolkien unbreakeble rule", and in 5e Tiamat made a deal with Asmodeus to get out of Bane's camp as part of their plot for the Tyranny of Dragons storyline, that is really bad and makes no sense at all.

I know Ed explained here something about it, to give a little sense to the Tyranny of Dragons plot. You should search the Ed's questions topic if you want to know the story.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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