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Rils
Learned Scribe

USA
100 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2018 :  17:21:34  Show Profile Send Rils a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something to think about is that WotC isn't in the business of Realmslore for the sake of Realmslore any more. D&D has seen a massive resurgence in popularity, and has been at or near the top of best seller lists since 5e debuted. Search YouTube or Twitch for D&D videos, you'll get hundreds of thousands of hits. Thousands of people show up to watch groups play the game at cons like PAX and Twitchcon. Live games like Critical Role get 50-60,000 viewers weekly - it's now a form entertainment, not just basement buddies doing their own thing. WotC isn't interested in revisiting or updating minutiae; they are focusing on producing products for the masses.

And I can't blame them. When you are only putting out a couple sourcebooks a year, they need to be accessible and have a high ROI for content. That's why they mix adventures, player's options, and lore all in one. For those of us who've been playing for 20 years, we've seen it before. For a new generation of gamers, there's a lot of fresh ground to cover.

There's no evil corporate plot to withhold precious Realmslore from a small minority who's interested in it. They are re-writing it as they go. And expanding the game from a niche hobby to something that is openly and freely discussed on national TV by folks like Stephen Colbert and Cooper Andersen (did you see the segment where they reminisced about their old characters, and decided that Andersen is an elf in real life?). Its unrealistic to expect a return to the 2e splatbook era - after all, that's what drove TSR to bankruptcy (along with some other bad business decisions). Right now it's clear that WotC has a stable business strategy, and one that's working well.

And they have set up things like the DMs Guild specifically for the purpose of expanding horizons in directions they aren't going. It's kind of a false argument to say "well that material isn't canon", when Ed himself has said that FR canon is whatever you want it to be. How many times have we all encouraged folks to "make it your own"?

I'd love official lore books as much as the next guy/gal. But it's also willful denial to suggest that WotC is somehow robbing us of that, when they've made it very clear that they aren't going to do what people here are accusing them of not doing. There are other outlets for that, and I highly encourage you all to make use of them! Investigate what other people are putting out there. Publish your own stuff. Don't just sit here in this quiet castle-library off the Swordcoast corner of the internet and complain about it. Don't like what the company is doing? Share with us what YOU'VE got! I feel confident in saying for all of us - we'd love to see it!

Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2018 :  21:53:36  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rils

Something to think about is that WotC isn't in the business of Realmslore for the sake of Realmslore any more. D&D has seen a massive resurgence in popularity, and has been at or near the top of best seller lists since 5e debuted. Search YouTube or Twitch for D&D videos, you'll get hundreds of thousands of hits. Thousands of people show up to watch groups play the game at cons like PAX and Twitchcon. Live games like Critical Role get 50-60,000 viewers weekly - it's now a form entertainment, not just basement buddies doing their own thing. WotC isn't interested in revisiting or updating minutiae; they are focusing on producing products for the masses.

And I can't blame them. When you are only putting out a couple sourcebooks a year, they need to be accessible and have a high ROI for content. That's why they mix adventures, player's options, and lore all in one. For those of us who've been playing for 20 years, we've seen it before. For a new generation of gamers, there's a lot of fresh ground to cover.

There's no evil corporate plot to withhold precious Realmslore from a small minority who's interested in it. They are re-writing it as they go. And expanding the game from a niche hobby to something that is openly and freely discussed on national TV by folks like Stephen Colbert and Cooper Andersen (did you see the segment where they reminisced about their old characters, and decided that Andersen is an elf in real life?). Its unrealistic to expect a return to the 2e splatbook era - after all, that's what drove TSR to bankruptcy (along with some other bad business decisions). Right now it's clear that WotC has a stable business strategy, and one that's working well.

And they have set up things like the DMs Guild specifically for the purpose of expanding horizons in directions they aren't going. It's kind of a false argument to say "well that material isn't canon", when Ed himself has said that FR canon is whatever you want it to be. How many times have we all encouraged folks to "make it your own"?

I'd love official lore books as much as the next guy/gal. But it's also willful denial to suggest that WotC is somehow robbing us of that, when they've made it very clear that they aren't going to do what people here are accusing them of not doing. There are other outlets for that, and I highly encourage you all to make use of them! Investigate what other people are putting out there. Publish your own stuff. Don't just sit here in this quiet castle-library off the Swordcoast corner of the internet and complain about it. Don't like what the company is doing? Share with us what YOU'VE got! I feel confident in saying for all of us - we'd love to see it!



The DMs Guild is awesome and you're absolutely right.

Our only complaint is that it shouldn't be limited to just 5e edition and 5e timeline.

It should be an outlet for all these folks like George to make money off ALL of their hard hard work through the years regardless of timeline or edition.

We aren't bemoaning the resurgence of D&D or the DM's guild. It's a great business model.

We are bemoaning the lack of motivation for all these great people to publish the awesome lore they have ALREADY MADE on the platform that it's intended for...the DM's guild.

We WANT to support the business model, and we will pay for it.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5391 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2018 :  04:06:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
It should be an outlet for all these folks like George to make money off ALL of their hard hard work through the years regardless of timeline or edition.



There's no money in gaming. My free releases at the DMs Guild have been downloaded 1000+ times. Work where I've charged a set fee - the biggest download number is about 137 - and as for pay what you want, it's about 800+ downloads for $20 of revenue! I don't do it for the money but was curious to see what FR fans out there were willing to pay for FR content. Not much as it turns out. Must be a reflection on the content ...!

I'll just have to lift my game clearly.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7745 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2018 :  12:29:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
It should be an outlet for all these folks like George to make money off ALL of their hard hard work through the years regardless of timeline or edition.



There's no money in gaming. My free releases at the DMs Guild have been downloaded 1000+ times. Work where I've charged a set fee - the biggest download number is about 137 - and as for pay what you want, it's about 800+ downloads for $20 of revenue! I don't do it for the money but was curious to see what FR fans out there were willing to pay for FR content. Not much as it turns out. Must be a reflection on the content ...!

I'll just have to lift my game clearly.

-- George Krashos



Well, at least I'm not the only one. You've put a lot more up there, but my stuff was basically helping cover my expenses (I've probably spent 2 to 3 times of my earnings). Out of curiosity, I just checked from June 2016 to now. I actually have 2 versions of my red book of spell strategy up, because I rushed the first one... and well, I've never taken the time to figure out how to remove the old version. Still, I'm not looking to make a profit. I'm looking to share my ideas. I think a lot of the ideas I've been discussing these last 2 years have finally started gelling in me, and I've spent this last week gathering my notes I've talked about here to start putting them together. I want to do a short story introduction for each of my tharchs now, with said story wandering around and giving a rough overview. Then a small actual overview of each tharch from a "fact" based standpoint. Its been a really fun effort for me from an imagining standpoint. I just wish work didn't get in the way..

I also need to go through the products I've found, because I actually planned to NOT develop a lot of things and instead put references to other people's DMs Guild products. For instance, if someone's already done a conversion of a lupin like fox humanoid race, I may reference that instead of creating my own rules. If there's a set of spells or magic items or monsters that I particularly think was done well, I may reference that. I know I'll be referencing some of Seethyr's Maztica works and another individual who did a lot of bestiaries.

Anyway, just to give people an idea of what I've seen for earnings. My red book of spell strategy is I think 156 pages (I have made some updates to my local copy and not uploaded it yet). I probably should have put a price on it instead of PWYW, but for me, its about sharing. If someone is making a big profit there, its got to be because they're charging a large set price. I've seen a few pieces worth that though. I will also state, I'm a cheapskate, and I give a lot of PWYW stuff only a nickel if its less than 10 pages. I always give something though, but I'll rarely download anything shorter than 5 pages, because usually its not even worth reading.

Art - Forgotten Realms Heraldry -FREE -
downloads 893 Profit 0 - but its free
The Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy - Pay What You Want - downloads 682 Profit $35.00
The Red Book of Spell Strategy - Pay What You Want - downloads 231 Profit $11.88

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Seeker

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2018 :  17:18:32  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sadly, that site is 5e only. I have all kinds of stuff but it is 2e only and I have no intension of purchasing all I need to understand how the new stuff works so I can convert the 250+ spells and who knows how many items I have to the new system. Especially since it is not like I am going to start playing again. It is making me wonder if it is even worth it for me to post the stuff here. Does anyone still USE the 2e rules anymore?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7745 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2018 :  05:59:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Sadly, that site is 5e only. I have all kinds of stuff but it is 2e only and I have no intension of purchasing all I need to understand how the new stuff works so I can convert the 250+ spells and who knows how many items I have to the new system. Especially since it is not like I am going to start playing again. It is making me wonder if it is even worth it for me to post the stuff here. Does anyone still USE the 2e rules anymore?



Aulddragon is still posting 2e conversions of D&D gods throughout the universe. There's others as well. Personally, I'll never use the 2e rules again, but that's because I favored 3.5 (it gets broken at epic levels mind you because magic item bonuses get too big), but I also like Pathfinder and 5e. All 3 have their issues though (5e not enough rules written and tested through to have the breadth of 3.5, pathfinder also lacking options found in 3.5 and getting a bit too focused on the mechanics to see how it was goofy conceptually... its more than just dice and damage types).

However, many things are somewhat edition agnostic OR are a welcome enough idea that people will review it to plumb the idea for conversion. Some things from prior editions that were very cool just never got reintroduced and could use a looking over. For instance, I've been surprised that noone ever redid the 2nd edition bard spell sound bubble. Its different than silence, as you can still talk in the bubble. For many it would help accomplish what they require with silent spell metamagic (unless they're gagged), and would function for more than one spell. It also had an interesting area effect wherein you could isolate a group of people from another for sound, such that you could pretty much cut off communications without making it immediately obvious (i.e. it doesn't suddenly get real quiet). It can effectively make an area proof from sonic / thunder type attacks from spells and creatures. What level is it? 1st level. Still, if your gagged... its no use... of course there was also the vocalize spell... if a person were worried about that issue, might be worth keeping it memorized.

Honestly, on the above, I think the silent spell feat should have been removed /replaced by the later sudden silent spell (and sudden silent spell should have had the ability for several uses a day) in 3.5, and options like vocalize and sound bubble reintroduced. Thus, people would have the means to cast "quietly" without having to use a feat. However, for the person that doesn't have the luxury of spell slots to spare, having the feat option open lets them be prepared.

Now, I'll not say a lot of those spells from 2e bear a conversion. They were awesome for the time, but they were broken. Especially when it came to "triggered" or "hanging" spells... but anyway, I'm meandering.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Varl
Learned Scribe

USA
267 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2018 :  13:11:36  Show Profile Send Varl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There's no money in gaming. My free releases at the DMs Guild have been downloaded 1000+ times. Work where I've charged a set fee - the biggest download number is about 137 - and as for pay what you want, it's about 800+ downloads for $20 of revenue! I don't do it for the money but was curious to see what FR fans out there were willing to pay for FR content. Not much as it turns out. Must be a reflection on the content ...!

I'll just have to lift my game clearly.


It's about visibility too. Until you just spoke it, I had no idea you had DMs Guild Realms content for sale, especially for a PWYW.


"Intimidation is a weapon of the Legion. Intelligence is not." -Illidan Stormrage
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5391 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2018 :  10:25:50  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My releases have been posted on a few FR Facebook pages as well as here. Not sure where else would get me more visibility. EnWorld maybe, but I’m saving that post for a big release.*grin*

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31817 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2018 :  23:13:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rils

Its unrealistic to expect a return to the 2e splatbook era - after all, that's what drove TSR to bankruptcy (along with some other bad business decisions). Right now it's clear that WotC has a stable business strategy, and one that's working well.


There was a lot behind their 2E bankruptcy. I think that WotC and TSR proved, though, before then and after -- and that other companies have proven, as well -- that there is a market for campaign settings.

I think WotC feels that it's not profitable enough to justify the work they'd have to do, though it's clear that they could farm it out to some dedicated lorelords and get some awesome material. I think they won't do that because they want to keep it all in-house... where they don't have sufficient people to do it. So they don't think there's enough profit to invest internally, but they won't invest externally, either. And this leaves a ravenous, once-dedicated fanbase to wither away.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2018 :  14:41:28  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
It should be an outlet for all these folks like George to make money off ALL of their hard hard work through the years regardless of timeline or edition.



There's no money in gaming. My free releases at the DMs Guild have been downloaded 1000+ times. Work where I've charged a set fee - the biggest download number is about 137 - and as for pay what you want, it's about 800+ downloads for $20 of revenue! I don't do it for the money but was curious to see what FR fans out there were willing to pay for FR content. Not much as it turns out. Must be a reflection on the content ...!

I'll just have to lift my game clearly.

-- George Krashos



That's very surprising. I've only ever created 2 maps, and both ended up selling over $250 each.

Not bad really.

Have you considered other platforms (DriveThruRPG, etc)?

I know I would pay splat book prices for your material, so I have hard time comprehending why this is happening.
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
243 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2018 :  11:12:00  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am quite happy with the current state of the Realms. Although to be honest I have zero need for WotC to produce any new content. I'm looking at starting a new Forgotten Realms campaign next year (although first I have to find a gaming group because I'm leaving my current group in Sydney ad moving to Adelaide at the end of January). I am very comfortable simply taking 1e, 2e and 3e material and farming it for ideas for a 5e campaign.

As for AD&D 2e, I'd happily play in a 2e campaign, although I don't like my chances on finding a group these days ;)

DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures.
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  17:26:14  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So So after a long hiatus from FR lore I picked up a copy of The Mad Mage's Dungeon and was surprised to see tha Laduger, Deep Dera, Gorm and Halea was spoken of like they're still around. I thought they were killed off when 4e came about. Has the Sundering been erased from lore? Are we back to how things were in say 1375 DR?

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31817 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  17:29:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger

So So after a long hiatus from FR lore I picked up a copy of The Mad Mage's Dungeon and was surprised to see tha Laduger, Deep Dera, Gorm and Halea was spoken of like they're still around. I thought they were killed off when 4e came about. Has the Sundering been erased from lore? Are we back to how things were in say 1375 DR?




More or less. They've undone a lot of the 4E changes, though not all of them.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  17:30:29  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger

So So after a long hiatus from FR lore I picked up a copy of The Mad Mage's Dungeon and was surprised to see tha Laduger, Deep Dera, Gorm and Halea was spoken of like they're still around. I thought they were killed off when 4e came about. Has the Sundering been erased from lore? Are we back to how things were in say 1375 DR?




The Sundering has not been erased. It happened, as did the Spellplague. I don't know all the things that have been restored, but all the gods that were killed off in 4e (and before, like Bhaal), have returned to action, so it kind of "feels" a bit more, say 1375.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 14 Dec 2018 17:33:12
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1186 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  19:04:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all gods, according to Ed, just the most iconic (+ any god a GM wants, oc). The point is that, officially, there are still some dead gods out there. He said this in an AMA on Facebook last year.

You can check info on the changes of the Sundering here (tho, the article is far from complete)

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Sundering

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Dec 2018 19:12:49
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  19:15:58  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Not all gods, according to Ed, just the most iconic (+ any god a GM wants, oc). The point is that, officially, there are still some dead gods out there. He said this in an AMA on Facebook last year.




Seems like a majority of them, though maybe some of the minor ones weren't. But those who were killed in the Spellplague, and others like Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Myrkul, Bhaal, Moander, etc, have all returned. Oh, and Amaunataur and Lathander are now separate entities.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3006 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  20:49:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Not all gods, according to Ed, just the most iconic (+ any god a GM wants, oc). The point is that, officially, there are still some dead gods out there. He said this in an AMA on Facebook last year.

You can check info on the changes of the Sundering here (tho, the article is far from complete)

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Sundering



Judging by the SCAG and MToF, the only currently "dead" gods seem to be those who were already "dead" before the ToT (like Tyche, Murdane, Auppenser--who isn't exactly dead--etc...), plus a few others. From ToA, Ubtao's state seems to be up in the air (or his worship hasn't started again), for example. Others seem to be uncertain, like what the new Gilgeam actually is. But, that said, even some pretty obscure gods, like Selvetarm (whom I believe to have potential, though, if developed from where he sits) have returned.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  20:51:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There may be a few unaccounted for, but the majority have returned, and those who were made "aspects" of others in 4e are their own entity again.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1186 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  21:12:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember they explained that somewhere (in the GenCon video where they explained the Sundering, IIRC). These gods became too weak after the Spellplague and where either subsumed by allied gods that wanted to save them or consumed by gods/beings that wanted to increase their own power (Asmodeus consuming Azuth is a great example of this), yet they were strong enough to still influence their followers.

And mortals, always prone to make quick conclusions, believed those gods had always been aspects of the others.

There were also some of these weak gods that had enough power to stand of their own, and thus weren't consumed but insteat turned into exarchs (servants). For instance, the Red Knight.

With the Second Sundering, these gods recovered their power and returned to their former stations. That's why Asmodeus needed a big metaplot to retain his divinity: Azuth was going to be restored, whether he liked it or not.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Dec 2018 21:14:40
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  21:42:06  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, even some of the more powerful deities were made to be "aspects" (Sehanine of Selune, Talos of Gruumsh), but thankfully, they aren't anymore. Some of the lesser gods were further reduced to exarchs, but that has been changed too. Most (with some exceptions) that had been done has now been undone.

Sweet water and light laughter
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4335 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  22:12:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still sounds contrived and poorly though out even so many years later. I don't think I will ever get over the spellvague or the blundering.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1186 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  23:02:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Well, even some of the more powerful deities were made to be "aspects" (Sehanine of Selune, Talos of Gruumsh), but thankfully, they aren't anymore. Some of the lesser gods were further reduced to exarchs, but that has been changed too. Most (with some exceptions) that had been done has now been undone.



Well, this doesn't makes sense lorewise, that's why is good to know the designers goals to at least understand the why (even it you don't agree with the designers).

In 4e they wanted to get rid of the many gods they felt overlap with others. Sehanine and Selune overlaped each other, and Selune is more important to the Realms than Sehanine, so she was removed (notice, tho, that Sehanine was still an important goddess in the lore of the core 4e world). I never understood why they wanted to remove Talos, tho.

But this was no lore decision, it was an administrative one. And it happened to other settings as well (Io and Nerull were removed from the core, for instance). So, they just removed them and, for them, that's all it was needed. There was no need for lore explanation beyond "the Spellplague/Dawn War killed them", "this god was this other all along".

But, for 5e they wanted to restore a lot of things that weren't well recieved by players in 4e, including the gods. So, they had to create an in-game explanation for their return. It feels lackluster? Yes, it does. But is seems that is the only explanation we are going to get, at least officially.

WotC doesn't seems to care about previous lore and continuity anymore (that's why they came up with the Spellplague, to begin with), and Ed is still under NDAs, so if we don't like their explanation, we'll have to create a better one.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Dec 2018 23:07:19
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2018 :  23:54:50  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Well, even some of the more powerful deities were made to be "aspects" (Sehanine of Selune, Talos of Gruumsh), but thankfully, they aren't anymore. Some of the lesser gods were further reduced to exarchs, but that has been changed too. Most (with some exceptions) that had been done has now been undone.



Well, this doesn't makes sense lorewise, that's why is good to know the designers goals to at least understand the why (even it you don't agree with the designers).

In 4e they wanted to get rid of the many gods they felt overlap with others. Sehanine and Selune overlaped each other, and Selune is more important to the Realms than Sehanine, so she was removed (notice, tho, that Sehanine was still an important goddess in the lore of the core 4e world). I never understood why they wanted to remove Talos, tho.

But this was no lore decision, it was an administrative one. And it happened to other settings as well (Io and Nerull were removed from the core, for instance). So, they just removed them and, for them, that's all it was needed. There was no need for lore explanation beyond "the Spellplague/Dawn War killed them", "this god was this other all along".

But, for 5e they wanted to restore a lot of things that weren't well recieved by players in 4e, including the gods. So, they had to create an in-game explanation for their return. It feels lackluster? Yes, it does. But is seems that is the only explanation we are going to get, at least officially.

WotC doesn't seems to care about previous lore and continuity anymore (that's why they came up with the Spellplague, to begin with), and Ed is still under NDAs, so if we don't like their explanation, we'll have to create a better one.



I know the designers wanted to reduce the pantheon size. Sehanine being an aspect of Selune doesn't make that much sense, as the only thing they really have in common is that they are both "moon goddesses". If anything, Sehanine's role is more in line with Kelemvor's than it is Selune's, at least in FR.


I was okay with the Sundering being the in-game reason, I would have just liked more detail, if that makes sense. I am aware the explanations we got for lore changes (in both 4e and 5e) were subpar, and yes, it is obvious to me they don't care about lore anymore, which is frustrating to me. Sure, we can create our own (as we always have), but it's still irritating. At this point, they seem to be changing lore within the edition. I get that they want to create "tools", if you will, for players and DMs to use, and to take out what they don't like, and leave what they do, but hasn't it always been done that way? This disregard for lore and canon by the creators to me just says "I don't care". I'm sure there are those who are perfectly happy with this approach, and it doesn't sound like it is going to be changing any time soon, but to me it's sloppy. I can do whatever I want in my headcanon and homebrew, but when I pick up a Realms product, I expect there to be some established canon and lore, because otherwise, there seems little point in having an established setting at all. If an author was writing a series, with an established history, lore, and way the world functions, but then suddenly changed (and changed it halfway through a book), then just started throwing things in or taking things out whenever they felt like it…readers would have a real problem. That’s what this current direction in D&D feels like to me. They used 5e to bring back the old feel of the Realms, to restore what 4e had taken away (and I was excited about it), but now they’re just being willy-nilly with it, IMHO.

I don’t’ hate everything they’ve done (though I have a serious problem with certain things in MToF, I won’t go into that here. I did that in the MToF thread lol). I like the inclusivity they are bringing, with more LGBTQ characters, and of course, I’m glad the majority of the gods have been restored, or were put back in their rightful place, rather than being aspects.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1186 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2018 :  00:02:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and the Realms is not the only setting being mistreated (see what they are doing to Nentir Vale). I guess, only Eberron has been respected in 5e, and only because the creator is in charge of the adaptation.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 15 Dec 2018 :  00:10:04  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am mostly familiar with FR, but I am not surprised the other settings are being affected, as well (I know a little of Nentir Vale, I think from the Abyssal Plague events, IIRC. That is where I first learned of TRQ).

Sweet water and light laughter
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