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Delnyn
Seeker

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2018 :  17:43:08  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Inquiry
Does anyone know the formal names of the languages of the languages spoken by the Creator Races? I exclude humans of course. If nobody knows, I will use Sarrukhese for surrukh, Batraichan for Batraichi, Aareean for aaree and LeShay for the fey.


Fluff Reason
I'm building an intelligent book as a dying wizard's legacy to Toril. The book teaches an alternative method of using the Weave to cast wizard/sorcerer spells. The education training is far more demanding than traditional wizardry and sorcery. Just to decipher sections of the book, the reader must be fluent in a whole array of languages, including ancient languages such as Loross, Aragrakh and Seldruin. This discipline is not intended at all to be a variant arcane class by the way.

Spells cast in this manner are not any more powerful than normally cast spells. In fact, attempting to cast spells without meeting each and every prerequisite results either in lower caster level and Save DC or outright failure. Failure results in damage or even drain depending upon the power of the spell. Think twice before you plan on casting that gate to Arvandor.

Edited by - Delnyn on 07 Oct 2018 21:05:33

Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
214 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  17:00:47  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
in Serpent Kingdoms 3.5 the Sarrukh's language is "Sarrukhar". Partial understandable if you speak Draconic.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4203 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  17:24:38  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The big question should be how have dragons inherited some sarrukh language when the two races existed millennia apart and if anything the dragons are more related to the aearee.

I've long wondered if the aearee evolution was like real world birds and thus they evolved from the dinosaurs (or in FR case the sarrukh). Thus the aearee language is an evolved form of sarrukh.

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Delnyn
Seeker

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  17:28:18  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

in Serpent Kingdoms 3.5 the Sarrukh's language is "Sarrukhar". Partial understandable if you speak Draconic.


Thanks Starshade. I will buy Serpent Kingdoms for more information on the sarrukh.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5339 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  00:29:35  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because in my Realms, some sarrukh obtained dragon eggs and tried to breed their own servitor dragons to maintain their hegemony over all races. They failed to control their progeny but elements of their language entered the draconic lexicon in the process.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Delnyn
Seeker

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  17:17:21  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Because in my Realms, some sarrukh obtained dragon eggs and tried to breed their own servitor dragons to maintain their hegemony over all races. They failed to control their progeny but elements of their language entered the draconic lexicon in the process.

-- George Krashos


You would think the sarrukh would have learned their lesson after the fiasco with the khaasta.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3031 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  19:59:00  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Because in my Realms, some sarrukh obtained dragon eggs and tried to breed their own servitor dragons to maintain their hegemony over all races. They failed to control their progeny but elements of their language entered the draconic lexicon in the process.

-- George Krashos


You would think the sarrukh would have learned their lesson after the fiasco with the khaasta.

Nah.

Interesting thought. What if the Sarrukh created the first Dragonborn?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 09 Oct 2018 19:59:45
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4203 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  20:30:31  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe the sarrukh of Okoth are not the same sarrukh that experimented upon these dragons. For starters the sarrukh of okoth died or fled to other planes before this experimentation took place (I think). I'm still working on it but the sarrukh were not a unified race of culture or form.
The sarrukh of okoth were the first empire but it broke apart when they started to discover fleshwarping magics. I reckon they used them first on themselves to augment their own abilities, make them a part of the weave so they could cast spells easier, make them stronger, more long lived. Some took the fleshwarping too far and were exiled. The empire started to fracture and a large number of clans or houses or tribes (not decided on the nomenclature) fled west. At the lake of steam they split and some went to lapaliiya while others went to anauroch. at least that's what I think happened.


As for George's revelations, I like it. He has hinted before at an enclave of sarrukh (I think in the vilhon region) that experimented on dragons and attempted to end the rule of dragons at the end of the thousand year war. This enclave may have been a remnant of the sarrukh baetith or just a last surviving outpost of sarrukh (the time of the sarrukh having long since passed). This means that this experimentation likely occurred around the time the dragons rebelled against their aearee masters and was either part of Jergal and the baetith's interference or was a byproduct of the rebellion of it or may even have been antagonistic (the two factions working separately to manipulate the dragons into rebellion). The draconomicon notes that the early dragon did not possess magic abilities like now, but I have seen a quote somewhere that states dragons are linked to the weave (like elves) and so perhaps this link was a result of experimentation and may even be how they got such awesome abilities. I think I would like to sarrukify the names of the dragon creators in draconic mythology now.

I do wonder if the early dragons were not dragons, but a wyvern like creature (as hinted at in the draconomicon) and the sarrukh experimentation and then crossbreeding resulted in the true dragons we know today.

The big question I have is what happened to the sarrukh performing the experimentations. It doesn't appear that many more experimental dragons were created after this period which means the experiments stopped. If the dragons got away from sarrukh control to then mingle with other dragons (how else would sarrukh language have gotten into dragon language), then perhaps in the act of breaking free of sarrukh control the dragons slaughtered their former masters.

Awesome lore nuggets as always George. Plenty for me to run away with.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3199 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  20:42:03  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I am of two minds regarding the Fey Creator Race. They either:

  • Speak an ancient form of Sylvan.
  • Are polyglots and don't have a language as we conceptualize it.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  21:28:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Because in my Realms, some sarrukh obtained dragon eggs and tried to breed their own servitor dragons to maintain their hegemony over all races. They failed to control their progeny but elements of their language entered the draconic lexicon in the process.

-- George Krashos


You would think the sarrukh would have learned their lesson after the fiasco with the khaasta.

Nah.

Interesting thought. What if the Sarrukh created the first Dragonborn?



Interesting idea, but then you've got to address why the dragonborn weren't known in the wider Realms before...

Unless the sarrukh only created a handful and for some reason didn't do any more. But their notes remained, and eventually fell into other hands. These later hands took those notes and ran with them for some reason...

An idea I've kicked around for a while is to connect dragonborn to my theoretical and entirely non-canon lost Netherese enclave.

It's always kind of bugged me that the published version of Netheril had all these flying cities -- but with a few exceptions, none of these cities went anywhere. They could conceivably go anywhere on Toril, but for Lurue only knows what reason, the majority decided not to. (Heck, one went into space; I dig the idea that the Rock of Bral was once a Netherese enclave)

So I made up a flying enclave that did go exploring, and decided it was over one of the unnamed continents when Karsus decided to show everyone how stupid he could be. Either this enclave was "parked" and didn't crash, or Mystra 1.0 "caught" it as she did the three she caught in the Heartlands.

Now stranded, the people of this enclave set about making a new home for themselves. And they eventually found some very serious enemy, there. To fight this enemy, they created the dragonborn. The dragonborn eventually defeated the enemy. And the former Netherese were either slain during the war or they dwindled and died off while the hardier dragonborn remained.

Keep three things in mind, with this whole story:

1) It's entirely non-canon; nothing even implies any of it is true
2) It's rough and needs some serious polishing
3) Part of the reason I connected the dragonborn to my lost enclave was because I wanted to come up with a backstory for the race that had nothing at all to do with the Spellplague.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4203 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  21:42:17  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe the dragonborn were more widely known in the very dun past, but so few records survive of the time of dragons that modern faerunian historians may not have discovered a mention of them yet

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1747 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  22:56:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Maybe the dragonborn were more widely known in the very dun past, but so few records survive of the time of dragons that modern faerunian historians may not have discovered a mention of them yet

Or the elves exterminated them. Like the planetouched around Sarbreen (before Ravens Bluff time).

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3031 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  23:13:13  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like something the Elves would do!

I still think WotC should have used the Dragon Eggs falling from the sky in 1374DR. Son of the Farmer 42 comes home. Look what I found paw! It's and egg! Can I keep it. Then an infant Dragonborn hatches a week later!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1122 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  23:39:09  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Maybe the dragonborn were more widely known in the very dun past, but so few records survive of the time of dragons that modern faerunian historians may not have discovered a mention of them yet



This is canon. Just check "Dragons of Faerūn" sourcebook. Ed even said to me once that the prehistoric "dragonborn of Bahamut" and the modern day ones are somehow related, but he didn't elaborate

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
320 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  06:16:57  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's always kind of bugged me that the published version of Netheril had all these flying cities -- but with a few exceptions, none of these cities went anywhere. They could conceivably go anywhere on Toril, but for Lurue only knows what reason, the majority decided not to. (Heck, one went into space; I dig the idea that the Rock of Bral was once a Netherese enclave)


Well, it's *really* hard to maintain trade networks if your trading hub moves in an irregular pattern. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  10:05:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's always kind of bugged me that the published version of Netheril had all these flying cities -- but with a few exceptions, none of these cities went anywhere. They could conceivably go anywhere on Toril, but for Lurue only knows what reason, the majority decided not to. (Heck, one went into space; I dig the idea that the Rock of Bral was once a Netherese enclave)


Well, it's *really* hard to maintain trade networks if your trading hub moves in an irregular pattern. :)

Jeff



Nothing says they couldn't go elsewhere but come back on a regular schedule.

Besides, if they could lop off mountaintops and make them fly, maintaining trade would be easy. Just use gates, translocational magics, or flying caravans. Logically, they would have had those things, anyway, because how else would produce and things not produced in enclaves make it up to the flying cities?

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  16:20:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the Sarrukh / Aearee connection... wasn't there SOMEWHERE that had the Sarrukh splitting out and some of them turning themselves into the couatl up near where the aearee were. Maybe in serpent kingdoms?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  16:25:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I believe the sarrukh of Okoth are not the same sarrukh that experimented upon these dragons. For starters the sarrukh of okoth died or fled to other planes before this experimentation took place (I think). I'm still working on it but the sarrukh were not a unified race of culture or form.
The sarrukh of okoth were the first empire but it broke apart when they started to discover fleshwarping magics. I reckon they used them first on themselves to augment their own abilities, make them a part of the weave so they could cast spells easier, make them stronger, more long lived. Some took the fleshwarping too far and were exiled. The empire started to fracture and a large number of clans or houses or tribes (not decided on the nomenclature) fled west. At the lake of steam they split and some went to lapaliiya while others went to anauroch. at least that's what I think happened.


As for George's revelations, I like it. He has hinted before at an enclave of sarrukh (I think in the vilhon region) that experimented on dragons and attempted to end the rule of dragons at the end of the thousand year war. This enclave may have been a remnant of the sarrukh baetith or just a last surviving outpost of sarrukh (the time of the sarrukh having long since passed). This means that this experimentation likely occurred around the time the dragons rebelled against their aearee masters and was either part of Jergal and the baetith's interference or was a byproduct of the rebellion of it or may even have been antagonistic (the two factions working separately to manipulate the dragons into rebellion). The draconomicon notes that the early dragon did not possess magic abilities like now, but I have seen a quote somewhere that states dragons are linked to the weave (like elves) and so perhaps this link was a result of experimentation and may even be how they got such awesome abilities. I think I would like to sarrukify the names of the dragon creators in draconic mythology now.

I do wonder if the early dragons were not dragons, but a wyvern like creature (as hinted at in the draconomicon) and the sarrukh experimentation and then crossbreeding resulted in the true dragons we know today.

The big question I have is what happened to the sarrukh performing the experimentations. It doesn't appear that many more experimental dragons were created after this period which means the experiments stopped. If the dragons got away from sarrukh control to then mingle with other dragons (how else would sarrukh language have gotten into dragon language), then perhaps in the act of breaking free of sarrukh control the dragons slaughtered their former masters.

Awesome lore nuggets as always George. Plenty for me to run away with.




On the wyverns, granted, I see you say "wyvern-like", but this is from GHotR… its one of the few things we can definitively relate to the aearee.

c. –30700 DR
Lammasu Massacre: One thousand Aearee-Krocaa lose their lives to a much smaller force of lammasu. Later experiments with domesticated landwyrms produce the first winged wyrms, which the aearee name wyverns. Thanks to its new wyvern armies, the Aearee-Krocaa empire expands rapidly.


BTW, along these lines, down in the Old Empires region this is also interesting from the original Old Empires, as it has both aarakocra and a Pteranodon like flying mount


The Riders to the Sky
This mountain chain is on the southeastern border of Chessenta. These are mostly hills ranging between 3,000 and 5,000 feet in height. On the southern end are a number of cliffs that are home to the tuuru, a race of giant birdlike lizards (pteranodons). Legends exist that in ancient days these huge birds were used as mounts by the warriors of Unther. Given the size, weight, and strength of the pteranodons, it is doubtful that they could support a human rider; either larger varieties once existed or the legend is a hoax.

There are also the ruins of an ancient aarakocra civilization on the slopes, but this tribe was hunted to extinction a century ago for sport by mercenaries from Chessenta.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Oct 2018 16:34:11
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1747 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  16:52:44  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Well, it's *really* hard to maintain trade networks if your trading hub moves in an irregular pattern. :)

Only if you care where it is at all. They made sure such trivialities don't get underfoot.
quote:
There were several companies that specialized in the creation of gates in Netheril, but Transgate Industries was the most revered. Throughout their 120-year history, they never had any problems with their magical gates: they were reliable, safe, and always got their passengers to their destinations.
  The company was started by a married couple named Ocelot and Ytartia. Both spent a great deal of time researching gates and intraplanar travel of all kinds. Through this seven years of analysis and testing, they were able to create the most stable gates ever seen in Netheril. Oddly enough, when one used one of their gates, there wasn’t a one-round confusion as one regained lost bearings (similar to the effect of a dimension door spell). For some reason, they were able to instill a sense of relational location equilibrium into the equation—something that the other gate companies never accomplished.
- Netheril: Empire of Magic

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Oct 2018 16:56:47
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  18:47:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ocelot? Ye gods.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4203 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  19:30:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most sources depict taverns as an offshoot of dragons, implying they came after dragons.

The draconomicon names the early Dragon precursor as eodraco. I don't think they were the same thing as a wyvern but I think it evolved into what we know as wyvern today.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  21:07:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Most sources depict taverns as an offshoot of dragons, implying they came after dragons.



I'm pretty certain that taverns followed an entirely different evolutionary chain.

Taverns are clearly more closely related to gazebos than to dragons.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Oct 2018 21:08:41
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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

296 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2018 :  23:50:20  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh no the dreaded gazebo, "Its just a gazebo!"

Somewhat related topic, I don't know what edition you are running, but I always found it odd that spells like Comprehend Languages and Read Magic basically eliminate many uses of Decipher Script, some uses of Spellcraft and one of the uses of Use Magic Device. I always thought it would be better to handle these spells as bonuses to the appropriate skill based on Caster Level, similar to the Jump spell.

Any ideas how you are going to tackle spells like that?

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Delnyn
Seeker

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2018 :  00:17:53  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Ocelot? Ye gods.

Maybe Bast made it to Toril long before the Imaskari barrier was erected, and Sharess was not her only or first guise. Completely unproven of course. But "ocelot" and "gods" in the same sentence was too hard to resist.
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2018 :  03:42:02  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am of two minds regarding the Fey Creator Race. They either:

  • Speak an ancient form of Sylvan.
  • Are polyglots and don't have a language as we conceptualize it.




I would agree with this. It's possible that the languages of the creator races would have been derived from languages associated with the planes (abyssal, celestial, infernal, primordial, and sylvan) since there would have been no progenitor Faerun languages from which to derive.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
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