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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2018 :  21:53:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5586 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2018 :  10:35:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Undarl wasn’t just a malaugrym, he was actually Malaug himself. And I recently had the privilege of reading some lore on those shapeshifters which even included a family tree.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 19 May 2019 02:53:02
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4723 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2018 :  10:40:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't wait to read what you do with that information I bet there is some juicy lore nuggets surrounding malaug that we don't know about (such as who he really was - netherese archangel perhaps).

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8281 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2018 :  13:43:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Sep 2018 13:45:34
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2018 :  15:40:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

I appreciate the comment. In examining my post, I think I can see where it seemed cryptic. That certainly wasn't intended. I figured I'd leave what I felt was extraneous information out. I'll get back to those documents I was looking at, get those back in here and open this back up to more examination.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3054 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  02:07:59  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Undarl wasn’t just a malaugrym, he was actually Malays himself. And I recently had the privilege of reading some lore on those shapeshifters which even included a family tree.

— George Krashos


I find that very interesting. Future DM's Guild product, maybe??

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  04:14:39  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

In following up to your response to my initial post from earlier, I have more information. So, first, I will identify what body of works I was initially reading "regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies", so that you can have a reference point as to where I am coming from.

Elminster and the Magelords of Athalantar
I was reading an article 'Dragon Magazine #228, called 'The Athalantan Campaign.' pgs. 27-37 That article discusses the nation of Athalantan, and very importantly, the history behind Elminster in a very specific manner. It appears that it is the most exhaustive account of Elminster's early life.

Malaugrym
Additionally, I read 'The Villains Lorebook', pgs. 99-101, as well as Dungeon #206 to refresh myself on these creatures.

The Phoenix Prophecies
As found in The Empires of the Shining Sea, pgs. 6-8, and 85-86.
_________________________________________________________________
My initial question read as:


quote:
Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?


Rephrasing it so that it makes more sense now:

Is anyone aware of a Phoenix Prophecy written by Nar'ysr at Mount Abbalayat (The Phoenix of Calimport, p.6-8, 85-86, The Empires of the Shining Sea), that addresses that Malaugrym would be a world wide foe during the extraordinarily dangerous Harpstar Wars?

Of particular note is the fact that Malaug (the creator of the Malaugrym per Dungeon #206) was posing as Undarl of Athalantar (Dragon #228: The Athalantan Campaign). Undarl/Malaug, as Malaugrym, was known to be:

quote:
His true form (a yuan-ti) was revealed in his battle with Elminster... but this was only the body he possessed on Toril. He was actually a Malaugrym or Shadowmaster (of whom more is told in the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy).


Great Reader sleyvas: thank you for asking me to clarify the question I was driving at. I do want to make sure I am getting my point across well. If something is off again, please do let me know if you think I need to clarify, etc., if you feel so inclined.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  04:17:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Brimstone,

I am not sure if you are referring to the tree by itself, or possible the entire remaining collection of 7,978 Phoenix Prophecies? If the latter, I would be beyond delighted to see such an epic undertaking considered and acted upon!

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Undarl wasn’t just a malaugrym, he was actually Malays himself. And I recently had the privilege of reading some lore on those shapeshifters which even included a family tree.

— George Krashos


I find that very interesting. Future DM's Guild product, maybe??


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Darvin_Amblecrown
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2019 :  19:52:45  Show Profile Send Darvin_Amblecrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This a great bit of Realmslore! cpthero2! I was just looking up stuff on the Malaugrym for questions about them in 5e, and this is helpful.

I wonder if they will talk about this in an upcoming Interview with the Old Mage?

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22814&fbclid=IwAR0pdj0gV-RLwXQIFkyoz3ncDrwTUE1yCF_hTdRRQYZlEAf8wbbAV_6wMfE
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8281 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2019 :  00:27:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AJA
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2019 :  01:11:54  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.

Morningdawn Hall (the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale) is built in the shape of a phoenix. There's also an old Candlekeep scroll on the subject.

EDIT: There is also Ed, of course;
quote:
Originally posted by @TheEdVerse, 11:42 AM - 16 Jul 2018
Replying to @PastorGall
The phoenix is found in the Realms, but they are rare and tend to be in remote wilderland areas.



AJA
YAFRP

Edited by - AJA on 19 May 2019 01:18:14
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1874 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2019 :  03:23:32  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
Either way, the Phoenix Prophecies are what, 7 tomes? There may well be yet another cryptic reference to that, too. Who knows?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:52:49  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good morning Acolyte Amblecrown,

I very much appreciate the compliment: thank you! :) I've been away for a while and am just getting back to some of the more relaxing, and fun activities, such as being here at Candlekeep! :)

I really feel there is a lot of very deeply connected and important issues that go overlooked and/or unexplored in the annals of the Realms. Exploring those materials, such as the Phoenix Prophecies, is amazingly interesting to me.

Thanks again,



quote:
Originally posted by Darvin_Amblecrown

This a great bit of Realmslore! cpthero2! I was just looking up stuff on the Malaugrym for questions about them in 5e, and this is helpful.

I wonder if they will talk about this in an upcoming Interview with the Old Mage?

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22814&fbclid=IwAR0pdj0gV-RLwXQIFkyoz3ncDrwTUE1yCF_hTdRRQYZlEAf8wbbAV_6wMfE


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  19:21:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Sleyvas,

Regarding as to whether there is any
quote:
mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself
, there is in the novel "Tymora's Luck":

quote:
"It's a phoenix! Some trick of Lathander's!" Beshaba gasped. "I warned you the bard's life would be forfeit", she growled to Holly. She turned about and lunged for Joel, grabbing him by his ponytail. "No, Beshaba!" Finder cried out. "He had nothing to do with this. Leave my priest out of it." The phoenix's shadow covered them all. Tymora's Luck, pg. 271


It is at that point that Finder pursues the phoenix, but all to late, as the phoenix escapes in a gate.

Additionally, the "Monster Manual II" from 2002, has an entry on it. Since the Forgotten Realms was the official campaign setting at that time, and the phoenix is listed in it, it does appear to comport with both Ed Greenwood's acknowledgement of the phoenix being in the Realms, and the novel I mentioned above as well.

I love that book so much.

Best regards,



[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Edited by - cpthero2 on 30 May 2019 19:24:48
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  19:37:48  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master TBeholder,

It is always a privilege to engage in these academic discussions with you! :) That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.


Unless I am misunderstanding your statement (and if I am, I ask your humble forgiveness), that statement appears to run contrary to the fact that (22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan. In fact, (14) fourteen of the auguries are argued by sages (and perhaps we should argue it more here for posterity and enlightenment) to have come true by 1370 DR. Empires of the Shining Sea, pgs. 6 - 8

As to your point regarding the volumes, you are most certainly correct that there were (7) volumes. Though there is an ability to view all of them, if I recall correctly, not all of them are in one place. Much to the chagrin of the Herald's at Herald's Holdfast, I'm certain...

Again though, if I misunderstood, and went off on a tangent, my apologies.

Best regards as always,



quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
Either way, the Phoenix Prophecies are what, 7 tomes? There may well be yet another cryptic reference to that, too. Who knows?


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2019 :  18:58:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Sleyvas,

Bumping back to your request for me to clarify my question and to cite my sources to remove the cryptic nature of my initial post, did you have any insight to my question regarding Nar'ysr at Mount Abbalayat writing a specific prophecy regarding the Maulagrym and the Harpstar Wars?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1874 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  18:24:35  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
(22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan.

I mean, how much Harpstar Wars have to do with Calimshan?
Or even the the Malaugrym, really. I suppose, they infiltrate and steal there too sometimes, but unless they'd munch someone really important, how significant they can be compared to the rest of local problems?
Plagues, fires, politics, dangerous lunatics, corruption, naval troubles (which calishites mostly bring on themselves), borders, beholders, drow raids, various unpleasant religions, elemental weirdness, and even surface elves... I mean, it's good old Calimshan.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2019 :  17:48:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master TBeholder,

haha... I can certainly appreciate that outlook for sure! My desire to get more information on the Phoenix Prophecies and the Malaugrym was about the relationship between particular Harper's and the Malaugrym. If the Phoenix Prophecies (which did identify the Harpstar Wars) did identify some sort of foreknowledge regarding Elminster, the Harper's in general, and the Malaugrym, then what else would they know? Perhaps one of those prophecies talks about the Blackstaff going full on criminal (according to some ethical systems, not the overly teleological one that he clearly justified his criminal behavior by). If so, did any of the Herald's of Holdfast know about it? If they did, did that lead to that schism between the Harper's and the Herald's?

There is a lot that could be potentially explained by many of those other 7900+ prophecies that have already shed light on a great many important events, and call into question the actions of many leaders and influential people over the years making certain decisions if they knew what was to come.

I've read a great deal of the prophecies, but though I could not find more information about this, it doesn't mean it isn't out there, and I was hoping some of you may have more insight into it. :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
(22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan.

I mean, how much Harpstar Wars have to do with Calimshan?
Or even the the Malaugrym, really. I suppose, they infiltrate and steal there too sometimes, but unless they'd munch someone really important, how significant they can be compared to the rest of local problems?
Plagues, fires, politics, dangerous lunatics, corruption, naval troubles (which calishites mostly bring on themselves), borders, beholders, drow raids, various unpleasant religions, elemental weirdness, and even surface elves... I mean, it's good old Calimshan.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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