| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Sesserdrix
Acolyte
9 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2018 : 23:08:12
|
Howdy all,
Thanks for the thorough answers to my last question! I have a couple more about a slightly different subject that would help me get a better understanding of Realmspace.
How does it work with Ao's rules and interloping gods? Like Tharizdun came from Oerth, meaning that at least in FR lore, the existence of Oerth is a thing, right? But Ao isn't managing Greyspace, so in the case of Tharizdun being an interloping deity... Does Ao give them a pass? Or are they violating the system?
How about a god like Corellon? Does he count as an interloper into Realmspace or a native? I remember reading that Eilistraee was banished from the Planes by Ao during the Time of Troubles which leads me to believe that the Seldarine are considered under Ao's 'jurisdiction' if you will. So if they counted as interloping, it would suggest Ao still has power over those. Or did Corellon spawn from Shar and Selune like the rest and just broke into his own pantheon? Honestly I don't have a firm grasp of Corellon's origins in FR. Did the Untheric and Mulhorandi Pantheons do the same?
I've got a pretty good grasp of the main Faerunian pantheon and their place in this ecosystem that Ao seems to be balancing, I think, but it is when moving into other pantheons that I start running into some of these confusing situations!
Thanks all!
|
Edited by - Sesserdrix on 08 Sep 2018 23:11:27
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2018 : 23:18:42
|
| That I recall, the Seldarine was banished too by Ao's decree. Eilistraee is a particular case, however, because she is only worshiped in the Realms, even though she was born outside of it (since she chose to wander among the dark elves on Toril when she was still a young goddess). The Seldarine didn't spawn from Shar and Selune, they came to the Realms after the whole War of Light and Darkness thingy. I think that interloper deities, who are worshiped on multiple worlds, have an aspect for each world, and that aspect is subject to the rules of the world. Killing FR Corellon won't kill Corellon in general. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2018 : 01:25:42
|
| According to Ao… he has control over ALL gods in the realmspace crystal sphere. He is, according to Ao, THE only overgod and all other pantheons report up to him. Therefore, in theory, any god would have to have his permission to come in. BUT... all gods are liars... and Ao is an OVERgod… so that makes him the biggest liar (even moreso that Leira).. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2018 : 03:31:50
|
Well, this would be only for 1E/2E, as after 3E the Realms are in their own multiverse.
Any god can come to Realmsspace and seek worshipers, but they must do so under AO's approval and rules.
In 2E, the Forgotten Realms uses the Spelljammer setting to ''connect" the universe. Oerth, Toril and Kyrnn all exist close to each other in a cluster along with a dozen other nearby worlds. Officially, there is plenty of crossover between the settings, but most of it is minor.
There are three types of gods:
1)Single Sphere-this makes up the bulk of the FR gods. They only have a presence in the Realms and have worshipers there.
2)Multi Sphere-this type of god has a presence and worshipers in at least two spheres.
3)All Spheres-this type of god simply has a presence and worshipers everywhere.
Corellon and the elven gods are type three, as they are worshiped by most(but not all) of the elves in the universe. So When Corellon comes to the Realms, he must follow Ao's rules, but this has no effect on him multiverse wide. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 00:08:42
|
-The different rules and editorial mandates that were put in place during different editions make keeping track of this a complete mess. I stopped playing/following when 4e came about, but before hand it was basically like bloodtide said: in 1e/2e, everything was connected and in 3e, everything was separated. Except that led to a problem in that outside stuff still very much existed and influenced the Forgotten Realms, so in a way, 3e caused there to be multiple dimensions, if you will: the "actual" Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms-contained Greyhawk; the "actual" Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms-contained Dragonlance; the "actual" Ravenloft and the Forgotten Realms-contained Ravenloft.
-All in all, I think the 1e/2e way of thinking about it makes the most sense. 3e unnecessarily convoluted things, and 4e/5e probably exacerbated that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 01:47:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The different rules and editorial mandates that were put in place during different editions make keeping track of this a complete mess. I stopped playing/following when 4e came about, but before hand it was basically like bloodtide said: in 1e/2e, everything was connected and in 3e, everything was separated. Except that led to a problem in that outside stuff still very much existed and influenced the Forgotten Realms, so in a way, 3e caused there to be multiple dimensions, if you will: the "actual" Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms-contained Greyhawk; the "actual" Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms-contained Dragonlance; the "actual" Ravenloft and the Forgotten Realms-contained Ravenloft.
-All in all, I think the 1e/2e way of thinking about it makes the most sense. 3e unnecessarily convoluted things, and 4e/5e probably exacerbated that.
Agreed. There was absolutely no need to revamp the planes after 2E, and doing so broke a hell of a lot of prior lore.
I've seen some other planar set-ups, for other settings, and I've seen the various ones the Realms has been a part of. And I think the Great Wheel is the best of all the arrangements. That's not to say I'd not happily lift from other settings -- Paizo has some great material on some of the planar inhabitants, and there are some 3rd party planes that are great -- but nothing beats the Great Wheel, for me.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 03:47:27
|
| -For me, changing the "arrangements" of the Planes (Great Wheel/Great Tree) didn't really matter so much because I never conceptualized planar travel as something that linear. What got me were the changes/retcons to the actual content about them. There were definitely some cool ideas introduced in 3e about stuff, but a lot came at the expense of older stuff. Then the 4e changes kind of set fire to the whole thing. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 03:54:51
|
| Id like to see some repairing of things, yes the spell plague blew this or that up, but how did gods return/how would they recover. Lots of toothy nummies |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
|
|
|
Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 12:59:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-For me, changing the "arrangements" of the Planes (Great Wheel/Great Tree) didn't really matter so much because I never conceptualized planar travel as something that linear.
Same here.
Infinite planes don't really work in three dimensions, so I always visualized the layout as some type of affinity/travel arrangement schema.
|
What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 14:58:57
|
Ao himself rarely intervenes directly in the Realms. In fact - aside from creating the world and a brief appearance over Waterdeep at the end of the Avatar Crisis - he's basically been completely inactive and unresponsive and all-but-unknown in the Realms (as far as mortals can tell).
But even though Ao seems to just sit back and do nothing there's still plenty of Faerunian deities willing to step up to the plate. One will always come forward to do something about perceived infractions of Ao's rules, or instruct some sort of Chosen or proxy to deal with it instead.
Tyr hates rulebreaking unfairness, Cyric treacherously attempts to steal or manipulate power at every opportunity, Bane and Shar work to claim any power they can from weaker entities, Mask plays his shadowy power games, Mystra simply meddles in everyone else's portfolios in any way she decides is "necessary".
I've spoken out before about my despair at the Realms becoming a living soap opera of the gods. Mere mortals simply aren't of any consequence on such an epic stage, no matter how heroic or villainous or legendary they might be. Escalating things upwards - bringing in Ao and/or other overgods - just seems like a step in the wrong direction. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Sep 2018 15:09:57 |
|
|
|
AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 16:59:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
3)All Spheres-this type of god simply has a presence and worshipers everywhere.
Corellon and the elven gods are type three, as they are worshiped by most(but not all) of the elves in the universe. So When Corellon comes to the Realms, he must follow Ao's rules, but this has no effect on him multiverse wide.
The elven deities are definitely not "all sphere" deities. They are found where the Imperial Navy holds at least some sway, but would not be found in spheres without an elven world, nation, or Imperial Navy presence, such as most of the beholder spheres, illithid spheres, and most of the spheres under the Vodoni Empire.
The only deities canonically believed to be all-sphere powers are Ptah and Celestian, and that is specifically mentioned as a belief, rather than a fact, and the reasons for it are up in the air (Ptah followers say it's because their deity made everything, but it could just be because it is an old faith that has long since explored much of space).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 17:54:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
Same here.
Infinite planes don't really work in three dimensions, so I always visualized the layout as some type of affinity/travel arrangement schema.
-I've always conceptualized it as almost like radio frequencies. The Material Plane exists on this frequency, the Astral Plane is that, the Elemental Plane of Fire is this, and so on. The only real canon issue there I guess would be travel to/from certain planes from other planes, but I never used those rules. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 18:08:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-For me, changing the "arrangements" of the Planes (Great Wheel/Great Tree) didn't really matter so much because I never conceptualized planar travel as something that linear.
Same here.
Infinite planes don't really work in three dimensions, so I always visualized the layout as some type of affinity/travel arrangement schema.
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Sep 2018 18:11:18 |
|
|
|
Sesserdrix
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 00:01:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-For me, changing the "arrangements" of the Planes (Great Wheel/Great Tree) didn't really matter so much because I never conceptualized planar travel as something that linear.
Same here.
Infinite planes don't really work in three dimensions, so I always visualized the layout as some type of affinity/travel arrangement schema.
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm.
I was always wondering about that and how that came about. Did some of the writers take issue with things like Planescape defining planar logic when they wanted to do it in a self-contained way in FR? Like, what went down to lead to that shift in 3e?
Personally, I have used an amalgamation of the Planes in my own games, ruling that the planes are inherently esoteric and ill-defined, so different people look at them in different ways in different times. They don't obey the normal physical laws of the Prime Material Plane, so they can each behave in different ways to different people and faiths. So got a god of the dead like Myrkul? Well, the plane of the dead is like the Gray Wastes. Get someone in there who is LN and transparent like Kelemvor? It is more like Fugue. Different dimensions of the planes? Could be. Different interpretations? Could be. I just leave it abstract as I tend to prefer the way they did Fugue to Gray Wastes, even though I like the clarity offered by the Wheel.
On the Elven Deities thing... Was Mord's Tome of Foes a monkey wrench in the elven story? It sure seemed like it. They painted Corellon as pretty damn hands off. I know it isn't a FR specific book, so I am guessing it is just that the FR Aspect of Corellon was more hands on. Just jumped out to me as weird on my last reading through. |
Edited by - Sesserdrix on 11 Sep 2018 00:05:16 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 00:45:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
3)All Spheres-this type of god simply has a presence and worshipers everywhere.
Corellon and the elven gods are type three, as they are worshiped by most(but not all) of the elves in the universe. So When Corellon comes to the Realms, he must follow Ao's rules, but this has no effect on him multiverse wide.
The elven deities are definitely not "all sphere" deities. They are found where the Imperial Navy holds at least some sway, but would not be found in spheres without an elven world, nation, or Imperial Navy presence, such as most of the beholder spheres, illithid spheres, and most of the spheres under the Vodoni Empire.
The only deities canonically believed to be all-sphere powers are Ptah and Celestian, and that is specifically mentioned as a belief, rather than a fact, and the reasons for it are up in the air (Ptah followers say it's because their deity made everything, but it could just be because it is an old faith that has long since explored much of space).
Jeff
Yeah, look at Krynn... elven deities aren't there. Eberron didn't have them. Athas didn't have them. Birthright didn't have the standard elven pantheon either (though they had Moradin in the world), and those elves are noted as not worshipping deities. Mystara had other elven deities. And that's just the big campaign settings... we don't know about smaller places like Jakandor, Ghostwalk, etc... that never got a whole world type explanation. It may actually be that the Seldarine are only found in Greyspace, Realmspace, and maybe a few other crystal spheres. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 00:54:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sesserdrix
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-For me, changing the "arrangements" of the Planes (Great Wheel/Great Tree) didn't really matter so much because I never conceptualized planar travel as something that linear.
Same here.
Infinite planes don't really work in three dimensions, so I always visualized the layout as some type of affinity/travel arrangement schema.
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm.
I was always wondering about that and how that came about. Did some of the writers take issue with things like Planescape defining planar logic when they wanted to do it in a self-contained way in FR? Like, what went down to lead to that shift in 3e?
Personally, I have used an amalgamation of the Planes in my own games, ruling that the planes are inherently esoteric and ill-defined, so different people look at them in different ways in different times. They don't obey the normal physical laws of the Prime Material Plane, so they can each behave in different ways to different people and faiths. So got a god of the dead like Myrkul? Well, the plane of the dead is like the Gray Wastes. Get someone in there who is LN and transparent like Kelemvor? It is more like Fugue. Different dimensions of the planes? Could be. Different interpretations? Could be. I just leave it abstract as I tend to prefer the way they did Fugue to Gray Wastes, even though I like the clarity offered by the Wheel.
On the Elven Deities thing... Was Mord's Tome of Foes a monkey wrench in the elven story? It sure seemed like it. They painted Corellon as pretty damn hands off. I know it isn't a FR specific book, so I am guessing it is just that the FR Aspect of Corellon was more hands on. Just jumped out to me as weird on my last reading through.
Basically, you had things like Lolth getting killed on her home plane in Greyhawk for instance, but she still had her abyssal plane and home on Toril. Same with like Orcus, etc... So, part of it was a separating out such that "Orcus in the realms isn't Orcus in Greyhawk"... there became a duplicated Abyss for the realms and a duplicated Abyss for Greyhawk.
One of the things that happened in 3e was that Lolth got her own domain OUTSIDE of the abyss. One of the questions that some may raise with post sundering is ... did all these separate hells and separate abysses STAY separate? For instance, the "Torilian" Abyss got "hurled into" the elemental chaos at least for Toril after the spellplague. But its separated out again. Did what was in the elemental chaos get destroyed? Did a NEW abyss "copy" over during the Sundering from another world? Are we still TRULY working with the SAME abyssal lords?
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 02:55:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm.
The World Tree might just be the (not very accurate) Faerunian view of the planes. FR sages and experts think their native world is the center of the multiverse?
I'm not sure how well that approach jives with the portals and cross-world connections that run through the Realms' older history...
|
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 11 Sep 2018 02:57:14 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 03:49:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm.
The World Tree might just be the (not very accurate) Faerunian view of the planes. FR sages and experts think their native world is the center of the multiverse?
I'm not sure how well that approach jives with the portals and cross-world connections that run through the Realms' older history...
The thing is, in 2E, it was canon that there were other worlds, and that planar travel worked a certain way. In 3E, it was canon that there were no other worlds, and that planar travel worked an entirely different way.
You can say that the planes of the Tree are domains or layers of planes on the Wheel... But that doesn't change the fact that they made major changes for no readily apparent reason.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 04:51:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing says that the planes of the Great Wheel are actually laid out in a wheel -- that's just the most common visualization, shaped in large part by how those planes are accessed from the Outlands.
The Great Tree wasn't just a different arrangement of planes, though... They renamed the planes, moved deities and planes around, and then removed everything that wasn't directly connected to the Realms. In effect, the Realms became the center of the universe, with nothing else out there save for the Far Realm.
The World Tree might just be the (not very accurate) Faerunian view of the planes. FR sages and experts think their native world is the center of the multiverse?
I'm not sure how well that approach jives with the portals and cross-world connections that run through the Realms' older history...
The thing is, in 2E, it was canon that there were other worlds, and that planar travel worked a certain way. In 3E, it was canon that there were no other worlds, and that planar travel worked an entirely different way.
You can say that the planes of the Tree are domains or layers of planes on the Wheel... But that doesn't change the fact that they made major changes for no readily apparent reason.
Hmmm, good point.
I don't own any 3E FR material, and never have owned any.
I would certainly agree that a major restructuring of the basic cosmology is different than some gods dying or a lot of complicated metaplot involving NPCs.
Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?
|
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 11 Sep 2018 04:51:49 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 05:03:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?
Like the majority of the changes in 3E, if it got any attention at all from WotC, it was "it's always been this way -- just no one knew about it!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Sep 2018 05:04:04 |
|
|
|
BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 06:25:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?
Like the majority of the changes in 3E, if it got any attention at all from WotC, it was "it's always been this way -- just no one knew about it!"
For things related to the differences in rules mechanics between 2e and 3E, like race and class restrictions and rules, that approach seems fine.
For major changes to cosmology that aren't driven by a rule changes?
Nope.
But what actual effect did it have on the printed content of 3E materials?
Are we talking about a page or two of new cosmology that can easily be ignored, or a long chapter full of material that's basically useless to a DM using the older cosmology?
|
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 11 Sep 2018 06:26:49 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 07:34:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The different rules and editorial mandates that were put in place during different editions make keeping track of this a complete mess. I stopped playing/following when 4e came about, but before hand it was basically like bloodtide said: in 1e/2e, everything was connected and in 3e, everything was separated. Except that led to a problem in that outside stuff still very much existed and influenced the Forgotten Realms, so in a way, 3e caused there to be multiple dimensions, if you will: the "actual" Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms-contained Greyhawk; the "actual" Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms-contained Dragonlance; the "actual" Ravenloft and the Forgotten Realms-contained Ravenloft.
-All in all, I think the 1e/2e way of thinking about it makes the most sense. 3e unnecessarily convoluted things, and 4e/5e probably exacerbated that.
Agreed. There was absolutely no need to revamp the planes after 2E, and doing so broke a hell of a lot of prior lore.
I've seen some other planar set-ups, for other settings, and I've seen the various ones the Realms has been a part of. And I think the Great Wheel is the best of all the arrangements. That's not to say I'd not happily lift from other settings -- Paizo has some great material on some of the planar inhabitants, and there are some 3rd party planes that are great -- but nothing beats the Great Wheel, for me.
I explain away the changes using Planescape. The idea behind the books of Planescape was that information was 2nd hand (very much like the Forgotten Realms). Planar explorers would report what they know about the planes in a matter of fact manner.
3rd Ed sources that seem contradictory are not - they are just the written cosmology of a NON-PLANAR realms scholar. The whole view of the universe was constructed by a scribe reading over dusty old tomes instead of seeing them. As such, 2nd Ed cosmology is 2nd hand while 3rd E is 3rd or 4th hand. :)
Loophole found :) |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 14:09:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?
Like the majority of the changes in 3E, if it got any attention at all from WotC, it was "it's always been this way -- just no one knew about it!"
No, there was a reason for the change in the cosmology given, and it was almost a copy of something they used later. It was at the very end of 2nd edition. Though it is a bit obscure, its basically hinted that Vecna was pursuing some kind of powerful ritual in... I think... Die Vecna Die! Anyway, he did some kind of ritual that basically fractures reality from within Sigil. Consequently, this must mean (and I say this without rereading that adventure from 20 years ago) that Vecna was somehow able to oppose the Lady of Pain's restrictions on deities entering Sigil.
from the wiki of Vecna
Vecna did not stay gone forever, and rose as a demigod of magic and secrets in the world of Greyhawk. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. He then broke free into the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. (Vecna's multiverse shattering campaign in Sigil is used as an in-universe way to explain the differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions of Dungeons & Dragons.) When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god.
This is from the end of Die Vecna Die
Vecna has successfully tested Sigil's wards, showing a way for other power-mad deities to find entry. Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language
Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia, she shores up Sigil’s wards against entry by deities who attempt to ”cheat” as Vecna did.
Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace. Even with Vecna’s removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain
attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna’s time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased.
Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs ”aground” on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag
Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane.
The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn’t yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed, and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months.
However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever bethe same again.
Secondarily, Szass Tam's ritual to "remodel the world" mirrors this action by Vecna for those that look into both things. In theory neither is "instantaneous" either, as the repercussions of the spellplague may have been a kickoff a few years later from some power Vecna release, and the repercussions of the Sundering may have been a kickoff a few years later of the actions of Tam and Malark Springhill.
IRONICALLY, if one wants to look at it this way... Vecna's action IN GAME are from around 1371 DR (I think this is the end of 2nd edition). Then sometime AROUND 1371 to maybe 1374 presumably, Zulkir of Alteration, Druxus Rhym finds the "Tome of Fastrin the Delver" which reveals the ritual that Szass Tam is later to try and which kicks off the Thayan civil war in 1375 DR.
Along these lines Vecna held the portfolios of "Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue" within greyspace.... things which would very much interest Talos, Shar, Leira, Mask, and Mystra (and of course their servants)... It should be noted that Vecna's performing of his ritual did have planar repercussions BUT they did not make him stronger. In fact, he was no longer a greater power in 3rd edition, so it actually lessened him in power.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Sep 2018 14:11:03 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 14:37:17
|
By the way in that adventure, there's also a reference to the realms in which its said that a cambion follower of Vecna who was formerly a leader of the Doomguard Faction of Sigil (and who apparently has a golden eye, hand, right arm, and right leg, and says
The man giving the sermon is not a man at all. He is a cambion (half human, half demon). His name is Ely Cromlich, and he once served as a leader of the Doomguard Faction in Sigil. Though slain in the Faction War, Cromlich was raised back to life by Vecna because of his secret devotion to the Whispered One. He, too, possesses a golden left hand and eye, but he also has an entire golden right arm and right leg.
If left interrupted, Ely sermonizes hour after hour in a Stalinesque manner, expounding on Vecna’s plans for the rearrangement of the multiverse, where even Ao will hold a subordinate position to the one true god.
Should heroes with relics physically enter this chamber or make themselves visible, Vecna immediately sees the heroes with his purely physical senses. When Vecna finally does sense the heroes, either by sight, or in the aftermath of attack on Ely and his flock, Vecna also reveals himself.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 16:14:04
|
(Technically a cambion is half-human, half-devil ... and Planescape was never brought up to 3E rules which confuse the very-important-in-Planescape distinctions between devils and demons and fiends ... but details about one individual don't really change anything important in the bigger scene, lol.)
Although every big religion proclaims some sort of "One" "True" Godhead who reigns supreme over all others. So I don't read anything significant from that Planescape story, it's really only meaningful if it's supported by other stories coming from other bias. Especially since Vecna has a lot going for him but in the end he never really amounted to much on a cosmic stage crowded by other powers. Ao's power in the Realms is apparently supreme ... just as the Lady of Pain's power in Sigil or Anubis's power in the Astral, etc ... and it seems highly unlikely any of them would ever leave their power bases to subject themselves to other powers ... so maybe Vecna really is (or could be) The Big Deal in Greyhawk or some other realm. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Sep 2018 16:22:23 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 18:32:55
|
| Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 18:50:35
|
| Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 20:11:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.
I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.
So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 21:01:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.
I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.
So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.
Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.
Problem solved, neh? |
Ewan Cummins |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 22:15:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.
I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.
So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.
Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.
Problem solved, neh?
The issue is that the publisher should not be creating problems by ignoring and willfully changing prior lore. I like published game settings because there are so many more and better ideas than I can come up with on my own, and one of the things that first drew me to the Realms was the (at the time) relatively tight continuity.
Basically, I don't want to have to fix things that shouldn't have been broken. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2018 : 08:58:14
|
More emphasis on one setting means less on another ... it's fair enough, even rewarding, to focus on a more immersive Realms with less thought to what goes on elsewhere.
But yeah, WotC has done a terrible job of coordinating their own "canon", poor workmanship always eventually shows on shoddy products. That being said ... it is what it is, and it's up to individual GMs/authors to pick and choose or clean up the mess in their own Realms, most people eventually come to that realization and stop buying "canon" after enough inconsistencies and disappointments have piled up. 2E Planescape is best served in 2E Planescape rules, 3E Realms is best served in 3E Realms rules, they were never really intended to be parts of the "same" game. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Interloping Deities and the Realmspace
