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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  00:56:58  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Ask your questions, lets see what we can clear up

For Instance is Thay the only place that takes Slaves?

Thay does take and buy and sell slaves but it is not the only place in Toril to do so.

Is it hot in Thay?

No, while some places are warmer than others but in general we control the weather so it is never too hot or too cold. With the exception of The Mass of St. Nick but that only last one to three days and just about everyone stays indoors during that time.


Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 10 Jul 2018 05:54:20

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  05:49:12  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How many Red Wizards are there?

The number varies but typically 1000 plus/minus 200-300.

Thay Red
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  05:53:34  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do monster run wild in Thay?

It depends what you call a Monster, typically we would say no. For instance the only Paladins in Thay are either dead or in Chains.

Thay Red
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  23:39:49  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No one has any questions?

Thay Red
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1877 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2018 :  04:07:18  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Might just be me, but I'm thinking "Facts" would be hard to come by... :D
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  00:08:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How many red wizards does it take to change a light bulb?

Who was THE leader in the Thayan Revolt against Mulhorand that led to the formation of Thay?

Why couldn't the mighty Zulkir of Necromancy become the god of necromancy, when his enemy and an outcast red wizard was able to do so?

Why would Szass Tam willingly accept an artifact which is known to have a curse that affects their moral judgment and drives them to more and more evil and depraved acts? Was it all really to control some demon lord that the first Zulkir of Conjuration, Jorgmacdon, was able to control without said artifact AND bind beneath Eltabbar?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
317 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  15:02:47  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

How many red wizards does it take to change a light bulb?



That depends on what they want to change it into
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31317 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  15:56:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

How many red wizards does it take to change a light bulb?




That's what apprentices and unseen servants are for.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
453 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  17:53:28  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

How many red wizards does it take to change a light bulb?




LED or incandescent?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  22:46:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

How many red wizards does it take to change a light bulb?




LED or incandescent?



continual ... you know for after Mystra dies.

BTW, I love this thread.... while I love Thay (more the old Thay)... there are definitely some areas that need improvement. The focus on Szass Tam acting like Xykon is one thing I'd like to see leaned away from. I liked him so much more when people "suspected" he was a lich, and he "kept it hidden" from the general populace. He was a much better schemer then. I miss the days when Thay wasn't a dead place, but rather a lush garden land, etc...


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  01:58:14  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is a light bulb?

Too many people think they know what Arch Zulkir Tam wants to be or do.

The Leader wasn't a single Mage but a Group of eight who became the first Zulkirs.

Thay has lots of Undead but it isn't a dead place.

The living still outnumber the undead 20 to 1

Thay Red
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  02:02:12  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good questions keep them coming.

Thay Red
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  02:10:05  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The dead outnumber the living in Thay 10 to 1

Thay Red
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  02:27:00  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zulkirs even Arch Zulkirs are masters of one School of Magic not all of them, What one Zulkir can do another cannot

Thay Red
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  03:02:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

What is a light bulb?

Too many people think they know what Arch Zulkir Tam wants to be or do.

The Leader wasn't a single Mage but a Group of eight who became the first Zulkirs.

Thay has lots of Undead but it isn't a dead place.

The living still outnumber the undead 20 to 1




A floating book, fleshed in red dragon scales and bound with gold bindings, and with the title "The Red Book of Spell Strategy" spelled in gold leaf floated in the air. Beside it, a sai also floated, its monouchi, or as some might call it the "tongue", angled downward at a slight 45 degrees, almost as though it were "looking" at the book. Suddenly, the book began flapping its pages.

"Such a travesty, Lorey, that the youth born today don't know the true history of the founding of their country. Admittedly, the current Zulkirate has done much to cover up the involvement of Thayd, the involvement of the Halruaans who were the original red wizards ... including Velsharoon... and they've tried to raise Ythazz Buvarr's notoriety."

At this, the sai, obviously referred to as Lorey, began shaking its monouchi from side to side and muttered, "Truly, its shameful Sleyvas, now do you finally get why I have always been so meticulous about"

But of course, the old bounty hunter turned holy artifact wouldn't let the longwinded sai start his own diatribe, for they'd be here for hours

"Nor do they know the true story of Jorgmacdon, and of course the fallout that led to the exile of Zhengyi and Velsharoon, nor the betrayal of Ilkrim Hlannadar, and of course the truth behind Thayd's disappearance, etc..."

At this, the sai, Lorey, began moving about "excitedly", adding, "Exactly, they do not even truly know of how the rage of dragons affected..."

"Yes, yes," the talking book, which had transformed itself into a "Wheel of Spells" deck and was shuffling itself, "And they think this land ravaged and transformed into desert wastes is still bountiful. Why Amruthar, once one of the most grand cities, is ravaged. Then of course, the numerous suckling undead feeding upon living humans."

"Truly shameful it is," spoke Lorey, "I don't understand why the people don't"

But, the "Wheels of Spells" deck, which had transformed into a lanceboard set, with "knights" that looked like the holy symbol of the Red Knight, continued without letting the sai finish, "Why, I'm glad I left for Soorenar when I did. Little did I know a civil war would break out just a few years later. Made quite a bit of money hunting down Tam's lieutenants under the payroll of the Zulkirs though."

"That would be when you fell in with Damerik Palenthis, the young theurge of the red knight would it not?" asked Lorey, "The young fellow who was with you when Lady Jillian and I were trying to uncover where the Imprisoners had taken Mirt just prior to the Spellpla-"

As if she heard her name, an ephemeral young woman shrouded in azure flames and wearing a choker with the symbol of Deneir appeared from nowhere, and said, "Come you two, Lady Mystra requires our services again. She requires us to hunt down Savras's Sword of Spells, and return it and a Gur seer from the hordelands to Halruaa".

As the three of them disappeared, Lorey could be heard muttering, "But I was just going to tell them the truth behind the Book of Fastrin the Delver and how Lei-"

But, the lanceboard, which had become a longsword and settled into the hands of the weaveghost butted in again, "Another time Lorey, servant of Auppenser, the mother of magic needs us now."



below from Ed via the Hooded One on Thayd's involvement with the founding of Thay.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13186&whichpage=80


Hi again, all.
As promised, Ed has unearthed that handout from GenCon back in 1991 in response to Thauramarth's query about the zulkirs of Thay. Here (Copyright © 1991 by TSR, Inc. but handed out to a seminar audience with verbal permission given by Ed and TSR staffers that it could be reproduced and disseminated freely for use in home Realms campaigns, and this post is precisely that sort of "reproduction") is the text of "what the public can see" (those were Jim Ward's words, I believe) about the rulers of Thay:


TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}


The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:

Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate

Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)

Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts

Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs

Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command

Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors

Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)



The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:

Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them

Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask

Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time

Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort

Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution


So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Oct 2010 04:03:29


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  05:57:43  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So lets see 7 Zulkirs and the 8th Red Wizard. Makes a group of 8 who became the first Zulkirs...even if some died along the way. Technically Skimper himself was already in Thay before any Mulan set foot on Toril, albeit locked away. Released he fried the fool who set him free. But that was recent not in 922.

Thay Red
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  07:43:40  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EDIT: Does a serious thread about Thay really need a mention of your OC, Skimper?

Edited by - LordofBones on 13 Jul 2018 11:01:01
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5187 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  10:27:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

So lets see 7 Zulkirs and the 8th Red Wizard. Makes a group of 8 who became the first Zulkirs...even if some died along the way. Technically Skimper himself was already in Thay before any Mulan set foot on Toril, albeit locked away. Released he fried the fool who set him free. But that was recent not in 922.




Ed has told me that the original Zulkir of Divination was left off the list as someone (Zeb Cook he thinks) was planning on writing a novel in which he featured and wanted an entirely free hand.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  18:04:22  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

So lets see 7 Zulkirs and the 8th Red Wizard. Makes a group of 8 who became the first Zulkirs...even if some died along the way. Technically Skimper himself was already in Thay before any Mulan set foot on Toril, albeit locked away. Released he fried the fool who set him free. But that was recent not in 922.




Ed has told me that the original Zulkir of Divination was left off the list as someone (Zeb Cook he thinks) was planning on writing a novel in which he featured and wanted an entirely free hand.

-- George Krashos



How Prophetic

Thay Red
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  18:28:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

So lets see 7 Zulkirs and the 8th Red Wizard. Makes a group of 8 who became the first Zulkirs...even if some died along the way. Technically Skimper himself was already in Thay before any Mulan set foot on Toril, albeit locked away. Released he fried the fool who set him free. But that was recent not in 922.




Ah, but reread the above. There were Zulkirs BEFORE the "original" Zulkirs. Those 8 that formed "the Zulkirate" after the Council of the Black Star, many of them may or may not have even been around for the revolt over a hundred years prior. We also have that Jorgmacdon was the original "Zulkir of Conjuration" from dreams of the red wizards and also mentioned in Red Gold. So, the big difference being that Thayd had Zulkirs, but over exactly what "schools" we're unaware (they may not be the traditional eight). While these Zulkirs may not have been spellcasters, I do prefer to believe that they were, given the nature of the Thayan revolt.

At the same time, we have this story that Ythazz Buvarr led the Thayan revolt. Eventually, he turned into a demilich and was betrayed and trapped beneath Bezantur.

We also have multiple references to the fact that the original red wizards were from Halruaa and forced into exile from there, as well as references that link Velsharoon to these original red wizards.

So, we have multiple disparate threads surrounding the founding of Thay. My preference is to believe that they're all true, and at the same time somehow linked. For instance, Ythazz Buvarr is obviously a lich, and an old one since he becomes a demilich (but is still a standard lich at the time of the Thayan Revolt). So, perhaps he is the common thread. Maybe he was one of the Theurgist Adepts long ago (but only a minor member). What if he had been entrapped in his phylactery at some point and it was actually a young Velsharoon that freed him. Then perhaps these two, along with other Halruaans work on restoring Thayd (who is trapped as a vestige), by instilling him in a new body... and he effectively begins acting like a "Suel Lich" and burning out bodies. But, Thayd eventually takes over the body of a dragon, specifically one that can shapechange into a human form (a mature adult hex dragon from Dragon #343 would be interesting), and within this body he is able to survive without burning it out and lead the revolution, with Ythazz Buvarr, Jorgmacdon, Velsharoon, possibly Zhengyi, and possibly leaders from Pholzubbalt, the nearby League of Sammathar, and of course Mulan leaders within the Priador, Unther, and Mulhorand tired of the theocracy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5187 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2018 :  03:16:51  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, perhaps ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

170 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2018 :  21:22:36  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any other question even mundane ones?

Thay Red
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2018 :  01:05:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yes, perhaps ...

-- George Krashos



George, I'd love to hear any spin or improvements you might put on it. At the same time, I know you may be doing your own works.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1877 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2018 :  08:09:54  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to go back and look, but I do not think Zhengi ever became a Zulkir. I would also keep him separate from Velsharoon as he becomes devoted to another.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5187 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2018 :  13:37:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah yes, both take a different path to lichdom through their patrons, Talos and Orcus. But why?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2018 :  14:09:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I have to go back and look, but I do not think Zhengi ever became a Zulkir. I would also keep him separate from Velsharoon as he becomes devoted to another.



Cool, someone who wants to discuss ideas. I wouldn't have Zhengyi as a Zulkir. I would have him as one of many of the mages founding the country. That's not to say I would have him weak though. I'd place him on power levels though with Velsharoon, Jorgmacdon, etc... at that time.

However, I would have Jorgmacdon, and Zhengyi as allies of a sort. I see Zhengyi as a necromancer who delved into Narfell's history. I also see Jorgmacdon as a conjurer who delved into Narfell's history. For Zhengyi though, I think there may be a blood relationship to Narfell's LONG ago line of rulers. I believe at the time of the Thayan Revolt, Zhengyi was already a lich. I would also have Zhengyi and Velsharoon as allies of a sort, in that both delved in similar magics. In fact, for both Zhengyi and Velsharoon, I wouldn't make them necromancers. I would make them generalists who multi-classed into dread necromancer under 3.5 rules. I would have the two having very similar builds, but with Zhengyi having warlock/eldritch theurge and Velsharoon delving as a binder/anima mage. The big difference between the two being Zhengyi makes a pact with Orcus, and Velsharoon makes multiple short term pacts with multiple individuals as he needs.

As long as we're talking Zhengyi as well, he was designed in the 1e era, so a lot of concepts weren't around yet. I honestly picture Zhengyi working better as like a multi-classed wizard(generalist) 3rd/ dread necromancer 1st /warlock 1st with 10 levels of ultimate magus and 10 levels of eldritch theurge and 7 levels of other stuff (maybe archmage, maybe Nar demonbinder, maybe geometer, maybe even something like nightmare spinner giving him some focus on fear and illusions).

Note, I'm picturing this build involving using levels gained in ultimate magus going to warlock to later qualify for eldritch theurge (thus his entering said class with only 1 level of warlock).
Thus at level 20 it would have been something like 3 wiz/1 dread necro/1 warlock/10 ultimate magus/5 eldritch theurge ... but with 2 "lesser levels" of ultimate magus going to warlock, 1 "lesser level of spellcasting" going to dread necro, and 7 of the levels where both go up going to wizard and dread necro both. The levels of eldritch theurge would go to wizard and warlock. Thus, at level 20 character level his spellcasting levels ..NOT.. Character level would be 15th wiz//9th dread necro/8th warlock. This is about the power level I picture him during the Thayan Revolt. By level 25, his spellcasting levels would be 20th wiz/9th dread necro/13th warlock, and this is the power level I picture him when he leaves Thay around the time of the forming of the Zulkirate. I picture him gaining about 5 to 7 more levels in the intervening 300+ years. I picture his falling out in Thay having to do with the concept of being a warlock and forming pacts with other beings for power (which the red wizards of that era would equate to similar to divine power).

In 5e, not sure how I'd build him, but it would definitely be a mix of warlock and wizard and probably using rules I have in my red book of spell strategy for multi-classing.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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