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 Akasa or just a cleric of arcane name?
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

200 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  07:54:03  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
My biggest gripe with the Forgotten realm is the origin of Magick just being a version of clerical 'divine' magic.

Where does divine magic come from? From one's god. Where does arcane magic come from? Akasa the fifth element except not in the forgotten realm, here it comes from a god.

I refer of course to Dragon Magazine #106 The laws of Magic by Charles Olsen. A non divine source of Magic.

This is the recovered lore we are researching in Thay as a basis of what we call the Red Weave a non divine (god) based form of magic.

Akasa is also the essence that helps determine the power of deities based upon numbers of followers who worship them.

Akasa is known as the fifth element. The energy basis of the universe.

Your Silver weave is your divine magic. Your Shadow weave a derivation of this.

The Red weave is pure magic without your divine essence influence or the ultimate trick of the forgotten realm changing arcane magic into a dorm of divine magic.

It is why Thay can operate outside of the Worship of Magic controlling divinity.

The rest of you are just Clerics in an Arcane name!

Thay Red

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

837 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  08:54:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't tell if this is parody, roleplay or someone just losing the plot entirely.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4216 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  09:16:04  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I shall be reading the article immediately as I needed a name for the energy that fuels gods. Cheers for the pointer.

As an aside I don't make Mystra the God and the Weave the same thing. That confusion of mixing Mystra and the Weave together comes from the time of Netheril only but the Weave existed far before that.

But most of my theories are heretical around here.

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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

200 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  13:30:47  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems if you kill Mystra Arcane magic doesn't work. If you kill Bhaal then the clerics of Bhaal's magic doesn't work. Mystra or whoever the god of magic is seems to divinely create arcane magic. Before the forgotten realms it was not this way.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 08 Jul 2018 04:55:07
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4216 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  13:50:30  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems that way but perhaps all is not what it seems. Maybe it was coincidence that made magic go awry at mystras death (although how do you know If a god dies if no one is there to witness it (them being metaphysical beings that reside on the outer plane).
And wasn't magic awry before Mystra died during the ToT. Yes they claim it is because she was not around to administer to the weave but what if that's not true.

What better way for the church of Mystra to gain worshippers than to perpetuate a mistruth that the Weave depends upon Mystra to continue existing.

But that's just me. I question everything and always try and find plausible alternatives so that what we know is only part of the truth.

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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

837 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  14:52:40  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Seems if you kill Mystra Arcane magic doesn't work. If you kill Bhaal then the clerics of Bhaal's magic doesn't work. Mystra or whoever the god of magic is seems ro divinely create arcane magic. Before the forgotten realms it was not this way.



The Weave (before 5e's attempt to shoehorn everything into the Realms, the hacks) only functions as a filter for magical energies in Realmspace itself. Mystra is simultaneously its manifestation and its caretaker.

A Red Wizard in Hades or Carceri or the Outlands would be subject to the planar traits of the plane, but otherwise can cast normally. A Red Wizard in Death's Embrace or the Library of Lore or Cerridwen would be subject to the laws of the deities governing those realms, but otherwise casts normally. A Red Wizard in Oerth still has access to everything he can do in Faerun, and is governed by the rules set by that sphere's deity(ies) of magic. A Red Wizard in Athas is, well, subject to the funkiness of Athas's magical rules and systems.

Mystra just gets a lot of flack because she's the most visible and the most in-you-face about it, and because she's so tied to the Weave that bad things happen when either side of that divide is compromised.
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sleyvas
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USA
7599 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2018 :  15:47:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while that is a dragon article, in certain worlds there is a much more explicit and defined source of magic. For instance, in Mystara there is the "Nucleus of the Spheres" which is some kind of nuclear reactor that's in Glantri. It is making magic easier for Glantrian wizards to wield, but at the same time its draining magic from the world. Eventually the "Immortals" of that world go to war over this in "Wrath of the Immortals", and eventually this artifact is turned from being a drain on magic to being a drain on Entropy. Thus, it begins feeding on undeath energies. I can see many drawing very close narratives between "Mystara" and "Mystra", and not just because of the name similarities. In fact this is from the 2e Forgotten Realms Adventures.

Prior to the Time of Troubles, the Red Wizards wielded greater magical power than they do now. This was due in part to a magical artifact operating within the depths of Amruthar that extended power to those pledged to the Red Wizards (this artifact became just one more pawn in the massive human chess games engaged in by the Zulkirs and Tharchions). During the magical chaos of the Godswar the device was either deactivated, stolen, or destroyed; in any event, its benefits to the Red Wizards were lost. The Red Wizards in the post-Avatar Realms are treated as normal mages with no special powers (or specialist mages if they belong to a particular
school).


To note, FRA was released in 1990. Wrath of the Immortals was released in 1992. I state this because of people who will draw similarities between the two worlds. For instance, in Mystara this nucleus of the spheres essentially came from a race of humans from another dimension who are far more technologically advanced. These humans begin breeding servitor races (including a race of intelligent "frog-men"). Given the concept in the realms that there was an ancient human creator race.... (note, this was SOME of the humans from the advanced race... they fought over what to do, and some went into suspended animation)

To further add similarities, according to TSR 1082: Wrath of the Immortals, Book Two: The Immortals' Fury
summarizing some: The alien ship landed long ago in blackmoor. The people of blackmoor were raiding it. A crewmember awoke from suspended animation, realized what was happening, and decided to help the people of blackmoor dismantle the ship, knowingly killing his fellows. However, one of his fellows also awoke as a result, turn the ships robots on the invaders, but not before they screwed up the ship's reactor. It would blow up the entire planent, except that this fellow changed the "explosion" to an "implosion", destroying the entire ship and creating "the Nucleus of the Spheres" artifact.

From page 8 of Wrath of the Immortals
At some point, an Old One discovered the device and became intrigued with it. He or she realized that the strange magical energies emanating from the device, the Radiance, had the potential to enable mortals to achieve Immortality in the Sphere of Energy without help from an Immortal sponsor. As an experiment in creating a whole new kind of Immortal, he or she moved the artifact to its current location and changed it to make it capable of granting Immortality to those who fully mastered its secrets.

Eventually the Immortals of Mystara discover this device, and decide that the best way to handle it would be to have it drain from the "Sphere of Energy" one of the Immortal Factions, and thus drawing magic from the world when its used. Later, Etienne D'Ambreville achieves immortality through use of the device and becomes the Immortal "Rad" and sponsors a group called the "Brotherhood of the Radiance" to study the Nucleus of the Spheres. Two hundred years later is when the "Immortals" of Mystara go to war. Why, because the "upper echelon" of Immortals COMMANDS Rad to stop studying the Nucleus of the Spheres, and unlike every prior immortal who owed their place in the heavens to their immortal sponsor, Rad owed no allegiance to anyone. He essentially thumbs his nose at them and a war breaks out.


So, in this story, we have a source of magic, but we have the Gods/Immortals tampering with said source. Said source is a "physical" material (essentially some form of "reactor" that's exploded).

A lot of this mirrors some of the discussions we were having about a year ago about Halruaa being the crash site of something (forming the ring of mountains and the central bay). There's many similar things, and I recommend finding that thread and reading through it if you're interested. However, we discussed how this "artifact" beneath Amruthar seems similar to the "Nucleus of the Spheres" under Glantri.... the mere fact that the red wizards draw some kind of power from it, etc...

Now, let's put a spin on this... During the Time of Troubles, the artifact beneath Amruthar was either "inactivated, stolen, or destroyed"... according to Powers and Pantheons, during the ToT, an avatar of Assuran (who had been "sponsored" into the Faerunian Pantheon from his time as a "manifestation") in the body of King Hippartes of Akanax travelled to Thay to "obtain a cache of weapons he had hidden in the Thaymounts". Which brings me full circle to "what were the manifestations that ruled in Mulhorand and Unther"? It also brings me back to the ideas of Pandorym and Entropy... and Plangent crystals that are mined down in Durpar. What were the great "sky ships" that brought the gods of Unther and Mulhorand to Toril in physical form and thus bypassing the Imaskari Godswall? What actually caused the "Plains of Purple Dust"? What was the source of Imaskar's power?

To take this even further... what lands just transferred to Abeir and back? Hmmm, was it mainly the lands where these manifestations were found. Did these manifestations bury something in these lands? So, the lands that once held deities who were not "raised up" by Ao himself were "banished" to a place where no deities existed (noting that after the ToT, these deities DID ascend to the heavens at Ao's will, along with other deities)... possibly including any special materials that were in those lands? It's a place where magic exists but of a different kind.... where magic only exists in the products of immortal beings.

What exactly WAS the "ship of the gods" island? Its gone from 4e maps, but it was in 3e supplements.

What land was just in the last ten years drawn upon in an immense magical experiment meant to essentially turn its ruler into an "immortal" leaving it near dead?

Why was Talos suddenly "sponsoring" gods of magic just following the Time of Trouble (such as a Thayan enemy of Szass Tam, Velsharoon the Vaunted, who became deity of the type of magic for which Tam is Zulkir)? Why was Shar pushing to gain control of the weave in such a fervor? Both are entities of sphere of entropy of a sort

What was the black star that Escalthar the Black Star drew his name from... you know, the supposedly mortal wizard, but rumored to be possible deific entity, which forced the red wizards to form the Thayan Zulkirate? As an aside, why is Cyric called the "Black Sun".

Maybe there was something to the Mulan manifestations and their arrivals. Maybe there was something to the spellplague. Maybe there was something to Mystra's "death" and "rebirth.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Jul 2018 16:07:53
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7599 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2018 :  17:02:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I sat here thinking about what I just wrote, and the idea that many of the immortal "manifestations" may have been drawing upon some local power source to maintain their power, it occurred to me to also think about other places that went to Abeir and back. For instance, we know that Maztica went there, and one can presume much if not all of the attached continent of Anchorome as well (including something happening to nearby Evermeet as well, creating a "not-magical out the ass" version of Evermeet for a while). One might presume that these lands also held similar "bits" of power from some weird substance. For instance, maybe if a mystical moon shattered it dropped large quantities here... or maybe something else entirely. Or maybe whole continents on Toril were ripped from someplace else when the elves performed the Sundering.

Then I thought... and the gods of Maztica didn't come down during the Time of Troubles... but they did initiate a war just a few years later. Also, during this war, Lolth was desperately trying to get herself pulled into the area... and with a snake cult no less called "The Viperhands". A few years after that failed, she is desperate to get out of the Abyss and pools all her power to form her own deific domain and "split" herself into multiple entities and then moves out of the abyss. At the exact same time, the Faerunian pantheon is introduced to the area in the form of Helm.

Lot of material to work with for the return to spin it in many ways.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
135 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2018 :  18:25:07  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



What exactly WAS the "ship of the gods" island? Its gone from 4e maps, but it was in 3e supplements.




It might have sunken into the waters. The island had active volcanic activity and the Spellplague might have further destabilized the region it was in.



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sleyvas
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USA
7599 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2018 :  18:51:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



What exactly WAS the "ship of the gods" island? Its gone from 4e maps, but it was in 3e supplements.




It might have sunken into the waters. The island had active volcanic activity and the Spellplague might have further destabilized the region it was in.



Or it was an actual "ship of the gods" which surrounded itself in earth and whose "volcanic activity" isn't generated by the core of Toril like ordinary volcanos... but rather the ship itself, lighting its "engines" (mind you, I'm not picturing a space ship.... but I'm not sure WHAT I'm picturing). Maybe the priests of Geb that were tending it were enacting rituals intent to "keep it cool".

Throwing out there as well... Maztica, and especially Lopango, Land of Fire.... these are areas noted for having a lot of "volcanos".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1136 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  05:59:24  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't the ship of the gods stolen by a group of pirates? This is mentioned in Old Empires.

IIRC, the ship is discribed a normal, albeit magical galley, not an island. This also applies to Matet/Semket (the ship of the Mulhorandi gods) if we go by what is said in Powers and Pantheons.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Jul 2018 06:07:17
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

658 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2018 :  19:11:55  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Wasn't the ship of the gods stolen by a group of pirates? This is mentioned in Old Empires.



That is the Galley of the Gods, the Untheric transpheric ship.
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