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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5167 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  07:13:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  07:46:13  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I recall in sourcebooks, in Unthalass, doing nothing.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  08:05:23  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well conquered is a very subjective term depending upon who is using it.

Whole countries have been conquered before without any bloodshed having taken place. The invading army marches up to the border, the defenders immediately surrender and pay restitution and accept vassal terms and the conquest is complete.

By 1000 DR I picture Gilgeam as staying in his luxurious palace and indulging his every desire, occasionally venturing out into the city to watch a battle at the arena or maybe to the edge of the green fields to watch a race. He is not an active ruler, his council wave documents at him and he waves them away or has them executed.

So chessenta rebels and Gilgeam waves the order for his armies to crush them. The army of chessenta and unther meet at the fields if pryollus (maybe named after the untheric general) and unther gets annihilated.

General pryollus signs unthers surrender and agrees to all the terms and get least I Tchazzar has conquered unther (without his army ever having set foot in the country).

Pryollus marches back to unthalass and Gilgeam is furious and butchers him in the arena before ordering another army raised and rolling over to enjoy his harem.

Gilgeam council never send another army. They pay Tchazzar his demanded tax and lie to Gilgeam about how well the battle went and how the war is going.
Eventually Tchazzar dies and chessenta falls apart and the council have proof that they won.

God's as people is a terrible idea but demi Gods are not really gods, they are people like elminster (or superman), super powerful but just people nonetheless.

At least that's how I'm dealing with That event.

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sleyvas
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USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  12:12:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?

-- George Krashos



When are we talking?? This entry where he essentially frees up Threskel? Given Bane's hold as a tyrant in Mourktar in the 1300's, and the fervent worship of Assuran also in the area and in Chessenta as well, I wouldn't be surprised if the area had been barely under Untheric control for a while. Gilgeam may have just tactically said "only take on what you can actually hold".

929 DR Year of Flashing Eyes
Several Chessentan cities form an alliance under the leadership of the
dragon-in-disguise and warlord Tchazzar [902, 953] and secede from Unther. The Alliance of Chessenta drives Unther back beyond the Riders to the Sky Mountains.

EDIT: I'm guessing you mean this entry more from Old Empires

The Chessentan Empire held sway as far west as Chondath, and even subdued Unther and held it as its vassal. After the death of Tchazzar, the Empire broke up; Unther tore free from its influence,
and its distant outposts were ruined.


Which on this, we don't have any solid dates. I see this as an opportunity to produce clarity. The Chessentan Empire seized the Northern portion of Unther, which probably became Threskel after his death. Vassals were probably installed in this northern portion of Unther. The southern half? Maybe it wasn't even touched.

BTW, on this concept for a minute... I know a lot of us don't like the concept of Abeir... but this region is one which definitely has SOME kind of ties to Abeir. What do we actually know of Tchazzar's youth or parentage? I don't think we actually know a thing. However, we do know that there were dragon overlords in Abeir. What if Tchazzar was originally from Abeir and SOMETHING happened and he found himself in Toril. Could this help improve on our stories in the area?

In fact, IF we wanted to improve on this a bit... the city of Firetrees has been known for these odd trees with phosphorescent blossoms that appear nowhere else. What if that small city was the transfer point where Tchazzar came over and he then fled north? Throw in as well that Tiglath (the "Chosen" of Tiamat) started up in Firetrees and this city is the center of the cult of Tiamat.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jun 2018 12:42:06
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  12:30:24  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is the timeframe George is referring to but there are quotes in other sources that say Tchazzar conquered unther.

I merged the two to have unther suffer a crushing defeat militarily and become a tributary state of chessenta, but only Gilgeam council knew about the tribute and Tchazzar was far too busy with other pressing concerns (like holding his nation together and keeping it united by distracting the factions with victorious wars of conquest.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  12:45:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tchazzar is the son of rauthstokh red ones I believe

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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2018 :  17:54:02  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?



Stranded on a desert isle, with the Skipper, the Professor, and Maryanne.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5167 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2018 :  03:36:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?



Stranded on a desert isle, with the Skipper, the Professor, and Maryanne.



Moonbeast, that is Grade A!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2018 :  16:05:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?



Stranded on a desert isle, with the Skipper, the Professor, and Maryanne.



At least its not the Skipper, the Professor, and Mrs. Howell... just saying

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
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2216 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2018 :  22:39:24  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to point out . I hate unther and its neighbor too moluhaund reeks....( even more so that I cant spell it either}

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  04:10:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is why I liked 4e Unther better.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  10:43:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unther was a vessel state very briefly, it was not administered by Chessenta.

And it's this defeat that was likely the last straw for Gilgeam's sanity and where he become insane and tyrannical
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  14:03:44  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Gods as people meaning" gods in a physical form or lacking omnipresence?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31302 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  14:39:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe friend Krash means gods as anything other than remote entities whose direct actions are rarely seen in the setting.

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Archmage of Nowhere
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USA
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Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  17:07:21  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If that's the case i'm a little confused.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?

-- George Krashos



I guess the topic implies that you are unsatisfied with Unther being vassalized while Gilgeam was still around, but doesn't that just support a more hands off approach to being a deity?

Vs say like Lolth who would literally walk over to the invading army and give each soldier a personal wedgy or at least give someone the power to do it for her and creepily watch.
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sleyvas
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USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  17:53:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Tchazzar is the son of rauthstokh red ones I believe



So, we know his father's name only? Or do we have any kind of information of where he's from? I say this because just because we know his father's name doesn't mean his father wasn't in Abeir.


HMMMM... and I do see where the source of that information is from (Dragons of Faerun pg 38) where it says his sire is Rauthstokh "Redbones" and the 3e FRCG where it says this about one possible story of the source of the name Dragon Coast.

Kuldrak the Many-Taloned, a red wyrm of mountainous size who laired amid the southernmost Thunder Peaks before Thauglor was hatched—and was vanquished by Rauthstokh "Redbones," the sire of the god-dragon Tchazzar.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31302 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  18:00:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere

If that's the case i'm a little confused.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?

-- George Krashos



I guess the topic implies that you are unsatisfied with Unther being vassalized while Gilgeam was still around, but doesn't that just support a more hands off approach to being a deity?

Vs say like Lolth who would literally walk over to the invading army and give each soldier a personal wedgy or at least give someone the power to do it for her and creepily watch.



But if Gilgeam is an active entity in the Realms, then the question becomes why he was not reacting to this. Gilgeam was not previously portrayed as the hands-off type that should be the default for deities, so why didn't he react in this case?

Again, this is assuming that I'm reading Krash correctly. He could readily come in here and say that my interpretation is full of whatever the Australian equivalent of BS is.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Jun 2018 18:01:15
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2018 :  19:30:02  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So when Tchazzar and Chessenta "conquered" Unther and controlled it for over a century, where was Gilgeam?

-- George Krashos



Uhm, I'm not sure if this is to be taken as a jest or if you are serious in this. If the latter then I really don't see the problem in Gilgeam staying in Unthalass while Chessenta "drives Unther back beyond the Riders to the Sky Mountains", which doesn't mean that Chessenta conquered Unther.
The only reference to any kind of "conquest" is in Old Empires and even there is vague enough that one can see the Chessentan cities claiming all Untheric territory up to the Riders to the Sky Mountains as "conquering Unther" without the original core of Unther being endangered (and that may be why Tchazzar stopped, he didn't want to push too much into Gilgeam's comfort zone).

Gilgeam didn't directly intervene in any of the major conflicts that dotted the decline of Unther, we have no indication that he ever led his army nor that he faced any real opponent during his reign. He never appeared in the cities of the Wizard's Reach to just casually smite the rebels, nor did he personally fight the Jhaamdathan psicocracy, nor did he conquer Westgate (he sent an emissary).
In his fights with Tiamat he was always "the victim" and was cornered on his home turf (both on Toril and in the Planes).

I can venture the hypothesis that this is because he was mightily scared of dying since the massacre of Untheric deities he saw during the Orcgate Wars (which nearly cost him his life too, according to the -1071 DR entry of GHotR). And I think that, at least at the start of his reign, it was not fear of his personal death, but fear that his death would have resulted in the end of Unther (which, ironically, is exactly what happened anyway), as he was the only "worthy" god-king alive.

I don't know why he didn't have incarnations and offsprings do the dirty work for him at the start (when he was still kind of honorable, later he wouldn't have trusted such powerful individuals, as noted in the sources) but the whole family of Untheric deities seems way less prolific in terms of incarnations and offsprings than their Mulhorandi cousins (whom have an incarnation of Anhur always ready to face any threath and lead Mulhorand's conquering armies). Maybe they couldn't spare the "divine power" needed to maintain the incarnations.

So we have this mighty and honorable warrior, forced by his duty to Unther as a whole to witness it crumble piece by piece without the chance to do anything about it. I can see why he turned mad at some point, must've been a torture.

And in all this I wonder WTF was Ramman's doing, that might have been a better question.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5167 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  03:10:54  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My query related to the fact that the sources specifically state that he never creates incarnations and that he was an overbearing, all-controlling tyrant. The sources do not portray him as a coward or an aloof deity. If he was prepared to give Tiamat a fight in the 1370s DR why wasn't he able to go and smite down a plain, red dragon centuries prior? Centuries prior to the Avatar Crisis when all deities were given a kick up the rear, I might add. And to go back to my original comment: he's human-like because he's there - not manifesting an avatar on a different plane or world, but physically there. Does any write-up of Gilgeam indicate that he was a "bend the knee"-type of guy? Not one I've read. Shoon fought Iryklathagra a couple of times and he wasn't a god ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jun 2018 03:12:42
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  19:45:26  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My query related to the fact that the sources specifically state that he never creates incarnations and that he was an overbearing, all-controlling tyrant. The sources do not portray him as a coward or an aloof deity. If he was prepared to give Tiamat a fight in the 1370s DR why wasn't he able to go and smite down a plain, red dragon centuries prior? Centuries prior to the Avatar Crisis when all deities were given a kick up the rear, I might add. And to go back to my original comment: he's human-like because he's there - not manifesting an avatar on a different plane or world, but physically there. Does any write-up of Gilgeam indicate that he was a "bend the knee"-type of guy? Not one I've read. Shoon fought Iryklathagra a couple of times and he wasn't a god ...

-- George Krashos



And I understand the query, I just don't get your sudden jump to the conclusion that this is utterly inconsistent and therefore a proof that deities as people are bad. I don't mean to come across as personally attacking you, but I've seen you disentangle worst cases of apparent or blatant inconsistency. That's why I am surprised.

Anyway, more to the point, what I was trying to say and maybe didn't come across is that after the Orcgate Wars we never ever actually have proof that Gilgeam fought with anyone outside of the borders of "old/original" Unther. In 1358 he was attacked, he defended himself at home, he didn't go around Toril searching for Tiamat.

This is clearly a stark contrast with the hands-on, iron fist tyrant that is portrayed and that probably was. So I try to explain it with the fact that for some convoluted reason (he felt dutybound to survive and protect the original territories his father first claimed at all costs and couldn't risk fighting outside of the borders of "original" Unther, or maybe there was something keeping him in, or maybe he was stronger while within those borders and weaker outside and didn't want to show it, or maybe ...) he never left "original" Unther to fight his enemies and always sent someone else. He sent mortals, since he didn't have incarnations or deific offsprings, meaning they eventually failed when confronted by other powerful mortals.

Going by the sources (OE, GHotR, LEoF), after taking the throne in -734 DR, we have no mention of Gilgeam actually going to fight outside "original" Unther either in the expansion wars of Unther or to keep the territories from rebelling (as opposed to random incarnations of Anhur and the other Mulhorandi deities always getting involved when it counted).
In 202 the Arkaiuns of Eltabranar attack southern Unther and he doesn't go to squash them down in the Shaar.
In 482 the first two cities of the Wizard's Reach rebel, starting the League of Samathar, he doesn't go there to annihilate them. The situation gets worse in 504 and he still doesn't move, the war goes on for 175 years without him moving and then in 679 Unther actually recognizes the League of Samathar!
All the while the great warrior king did utterly nothing.
In 731 is the only mention that may hint at him doing anything, with the occupation of the lair of "the slain brown dragon Vulpomyscan" (but we don't even know if Gilgeam or someone else did the killing).
In 823 Mourktar, right next door to "original" Unther, secedes, and yet Gilgeam doesn't go banging on the gates.
Tchazzar's own campaign started in 902 and Gilgeam did nothing while Tchazzar conquered most of the Untheric territory that makes up modern day Chessenta.

Going by this track record I don't see it strange that Gilgeam kept not fighting when his armies were driven back by those of Tchazzar, I would've been surprised if he did.

Actually going further on and using the expanded timeline provided by Eric Boyd, in 1358 we have Gilgeam battle Tiamat at Firetrees (Eleasias 1358), then Ramman (not Gilgeam and not both of them together) battle Assuran (Eleint 1358) and then the last Gilgeam/Tiamat fight on Toril in Unthalass (Feast of the Moon 1358, after the end of the Time of Troubles).

So the only known fighting exploits of Gilgeam as god-king of Unther are during or after the Time of Troubles, inside "original" Unther and only against Tiamat.

There is clearly something fishy with the fact that this overbearing supreme tyrant warrior king doesn't fight each time Unther's power is at risk, but it starts way before the 929 "conquest" by Tchazzar's armies.

I don't exactly know how old Tchazzar as a dragon was but he may have been old and cunning enough to witness the apparent apathy of Gilgeam during the League of Samathar rebellion and conclude that it was safe to attack Unther outside the "original" borders.
Maybe he started picking a fight with an empire ruled by a god because he knew that god wouldn't move against him, for whatever reason.

EDIT: I love the Shoons too, but that only reinforces my point, for me clearly what was stopping Gilgeam from fighting was not the individual power of Tchazzar the red dragon but something else

EDIT2: the more I think about this the more I suspect the Mulhorandi did something fishy during the Orcgate Wars (most of the Untheric pantheon was annihilated, the Mulhorandi lost only Ra, the orcs apparently didn't loose anyone) or when writing the treaties between the First Empires, I think they may have found some way to hamstring Unther forever but we have no clear hint of that ...

Edited by - Demzer on 05 Jun 2018 19:51:29
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  20:03:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a very insightful observation. If he were somehow constrained to the land itself, it could prove very interesting.

In fact, we don't even know when Gilgeam came about. Did he arrive on the galley of the gods, or was he actually born on Toril? He is obviously based on Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh wasn't a god. He was a hero. Could Gilgeam have been a classic demigod (as in Enlil birthing him on a human woman), and after the Orcgate war was when he ascended to godhood?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  21:29:29  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That is a very insightful observation. If he were somehow constrained to the land itself, it could prove very interesting.

In fact, we don't even know when Gilgeam came about. Did he arrive on the galley of the gods, or was he actually born on Toril? He is obviously based on Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh wasn't a god. He was a hero. Could Gilgeam have been a classic demigod (as in Enlil birthing him on a human woman), and after the Orcgate war was when he ascended to godhood?



He definitely fought in the Orcgate Wars, he is recorded as directly fighting Ilneval (or his avatar) and not just random orcs so he was up there in the "deific" power level and Tiamat tried to slay him (he was saved by Marduk).
The thing is, we don't exactly know where all the Orcgate Wars were fought.
We know that Ra was the first to fall based on the "first known deicide" note and that the portal appeared in modern-day Thay, but then the war lasted 6 years and, despite starting very close to the border of "original" Mulhorand, the death toll claimed only Untheric deities after the death of Ra.
I always found it really strange that the death toll was so skewed towards the Untheri pantheon but maybe there is some deeper reason for that.
It seems like the Mulhorandi suffered the brunt of the first attack and lost Ra, then the Untheri arrived to help their allies and defend their colonies on the Wizard's Reach but lost almost the whole pantheon. It seems like being far from their "original" Torillian home greatly reduced their power, maybe that's what Gilgeam realised and why he stopped going around Toril and stuck to "original" Unther.

The only other reference I could find to Gilgeam outside "original" Unther is regarding the Great Barrow in the Great Dale: he oversaw the construction of the tomb to the god Nergal (who died in the Orcgate Wars so this event happened during the wars or right after that), entombed his living family with the body and then slew the builders and raised them as undead guardians.
[Interestingly enough this story for the Great Barrow came with LEoF in 2005, since Unapproachable East of 2003 still has the Great Barrow shrouded in mystery with "no one knows" what's inside and who built it]
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  21:42:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I spent a lot of time looking at all of these events and issues.

You guys have fun coming up with an answer.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  23:14:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That is a very insightful observation. If he were somehow constrained to the land itself, it could prove very interesting.

In fact, we don't even know when Gilgeam came about. Did he arrive on the galley of the gods, or was he actually born on Toril? He is obviously based on Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh wasn't a god. He was a hero. Could Gilgeam have been a classic demigod (as in Enlil birthing him on a human woman), and after the Orcgate war was when he ascended to godhood?



He definitely fought in the Orcgate Wars, he is recorded as directly fighting Ilneval (or his avatar) and not just random orcs so he was up there in the "deific" power level and Tiamat tried to slay him (he was saved by Marduk).
The thing is, we don't exactly know where all the Orcgate Wars were fought.
We know that Ra was the first to fall based on the "first known deicide" note and that the portal appeared in modern-day Thay, but then the war lasted 6 years and, despite starting very close to the border of "original" Mulhorand, the death toll claimed only Untheric deities after the death of Ra.
I always found it really strange that the death toll was so skewed towards the Untheri pantheon but maybe there is some deeper reason for that.
It seems like the Mulhorandi suffered the brunt of the first attack and lost Ra, then the Untheri arrived to help their allies and defend their colonies on the Wizard's Reach but lost almost the whole pantheon. It seems like being far from their "original" Torillian home greatly reduced their power, maybe that's what Gilgeam realised and why he stopped going around Toril and stuck to "original" Unther.

The only other reference I could find to Gilgeam outside "original" Unther is regarding the Great Barrow in the Great Dale: he oversaw the construction of the tomb to the god Nergal (who died in the Orcgate Wars so this event happened during the wars or right after that), entombed his living family with the body and then slew the builders and raised them as undead guardians.
[Interestingly enough this story for the Great Barrow came with LEoF in 2005, since Unapproachable East of 2003 still has the Great Barrow shrouded in mystery with "no one knows" what's inside and who built it]




Yeah, one of the things I've wondered about is that the orcgate was around Thay. However its right after the orcgate wars that the Nars build Shandaular. Literally just 5 years later. It makes me think that the "destruction" of the Orcgate was more like "destroying its ability to connect to the orc world", and that the Nars just discovered a way to use the existing portal... and that this portal could already connect to the portal in the Shaar. So, what's just above that portal in the Shaar? Unther.... just ripe for a surprise assault from the rear.
So, it may have been that those deities were killed on their home turf. As to Gilgeam battling the avatar of Ilneval... IF Gilgeam was a child of a god, but not a god YET, I could see him being able to kill an avatar of Ilneval. That being said, it could also be that he was born on Toril and became a god there. It could also be that he came over on the galley of the gods with all the others.

I actually kind of like the idea though that Gilgeam was a "Hercules" type of deity who started out the son of Enlil and earned his godhood helping build the empire of Unther. This would be different than what Mulhorand did, because they simply infused their "godhood" into a new family member every few generations (in fact, there's some hints that there may have been more than one incarnation of a given god at a time). I would venture that this is a major difference between the two cultures. Mulhorand is about unity and working together (in theory for the greater good). Unther is about individualism and power.

BTW, its this statement from Old Empires that strongly hints to there being multiple incarnations of a god at once in Mulhorand. I only bring it up because a lot of people have the idea that the gods of Mulhorand were speaking through only a single mortal at a time and were pretty much controlling them like puppets, but it appears to have been different.

The pharaoh is always male and always an incarnation of Horus-Re [except for a brief time after the loss of Thay, when an incarnation of Thoth took the throne (all of the other incarnations
of Horus-Re were dead)].



From GHotR

–1071 DR
The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known
deicide.
— The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are
slain by orc deities.
— During the final Battle of the Gods, Tiamat launches a surprise attack against Gilgeam while he battles Ilneval. The ever-vigilant Marduk intervenes, killing Tiamat before she can land a death blow against Gilgeam, but at the cost of his own life.
–1069 DR
The Orcgate is destroyed, and the invading orcs and their deities are defeated in the Priador. Tribes of Nars, Rashemi, Raumvirans, and Sossrim return home. Over the next century, the Nars found a series of petty kingdoms, the most prominent of which is Ashanath, along the western shore of Lake Ashane.
–1064 DR
The Netherese make first contact with the illithids.
— A two-way portal between the Shandaular, capital of the kingdom of
Ashanath and Council Hills, far to the south in the Eastern Shaar, is opened. Shaundaular expands to encompass the lands surrounding the portal’s southern
terminus.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2018 :  23:51:29  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, one of the things I've wondered about is that the orcgate was around Thay. However its right after the orcgate wars that the Nars build Shandaular. Literally just 5 years later. It makes me think that the "destruction" of the Orcgate was more like "destroying its ability to connect to the orc world", and that the Nars just discovered a way to use the existing portal... and that this portal could already connect to the portal in the Shaar. So, what's just above that portal in the Shaar? Unther.... just ripe for a surprise assault from the rear.



I like the Nar just reactivating an old Imaskari portal network after the hijacking of the theurgist adepts connecting it to another world was dispelled/removed.

I'm not convinced about the "surprise assault from the rear" angle. That's meaningless to deities in a fantasy setting, even if you destroy their armies it doesn't matter how many orc mooks you throw at them, you need deities to kill deities. I mean even the uber-powerful Imaskari didn't get a single member of one of the two pantheons in the dead book, sounds pretty darn tough for me that simply appearing nearer with countless orcs would do the trick.
Again, it would make it easier to defeat their mortal armies but then Nanna-Sin could just keep swinging his olde crescent bladed axe all millenium long at all the mortal orcs of the original orc world without suffering a scratch. Is not like the portal in the Shaar appeared in the Untheri deities bedchambers or anything like that.
After all, even the smallest bits of informations we have pin all the events of the Orcgate Wars to Thay and northeastern Faerun:
- we don't have orcs spilling in Durpar, we don't have gray orcs in the Shining South unless I'm mistaken;
- the start and end of the war are on the Priador and some fights in the Great Dale;
- the involvement of Nar, Raumathari and Sossrim mercenaries (not Shaaran or Crinti or drow or halfling or Durpari or ... you get it);
- the dwarves of the Great Rift don't even mention having to clean up stray orcs.

I would say the fighting was confined to modern day Tha/Aglarond/Wizard's Reach and north of there.

Back to Gilgeam, the fact that Powers and Pantheons mentions "reconnecting to his true essence in the Outer Planes" after the Time of Troubles (same formula used for all the interloper deities of the two families) makes me inclined to think he arrived as a deity with the rest of the pantheon on Enki's Galley of the Gods.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2018 :  04:32:20  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't a mummy Gilgeam a thing in a 3e novel? I always wondered about that... I guess it was destroyed or something...

But then you have the Not!Gilgeam of 5e, that came from a land that canonically, shouldn't have gods...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Jun 2018 04:35:58
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