| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2018 : 22:21:50
|
| The PHB says that Lolth did her thing, those who went with her became the drow. In MToF "drow" simply was one of the many forms that the elves could take, if I understand it correctly. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2018 : 22:52:54
|
| In the MToF, Lolth and Corellon clashed, and the primal elves (as they were then called) who sided with Lolth became the drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2018 : 22:57:03
|
| In their video they said that every primal elf collapsed in their favourite form at the end of the clash? Thus explaining the various elves subraces? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2018 : 23:17:08
|
| I think there is enough wiggle room in nearly everything I've read to make it work with multiple interpretations, including most older lore (not to say there aren't some mistakes, but there are plenty of those in older lore too). |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2018 : 23:26:39
|
Yeah, basically. I'll quote from the book:
One of these beings, although privileged to be elevated above the rest of the primal elves, was not satisfied with being one of Corellon's trusted underlings. She--for she had declared herself thus--saw the multiverse around them other beings making an impact in various worlds. The entity who called herself Lolth spoke to the other new gods and wove an enticing tale of how the elves could attain superiority if only they could relinquish a bit of their individual freedom. Wasn't losing freedom to achieve greatness worth the price? Through this argument, Lolth persuaded primal entities to take static forms, largely resembling what elves look like today, and thereby turn away from the example of Corellon's wild, ever-shifting ways.
As these primal reflections of Corellon changed their nature and defined themselves, they came to see Corellon and Lolth in new lights. They now viewed Corellon as their father, the one who had sired them, and Lolth as their mother, the one who set them on their path to their destiny. Each of the other primal elves, as children will do, favored one parent over the other. Corellon was revolted by this perceived betrayal and railed against Lolth's intrusion. Some of the primal elves rose to her defense...Those who remained advocates of Corellon insisted that their sire also wanted greatness for the elves and that such greatness could be achieved if all the primal elves followed Corellon's lead.
...At a time when Corellon became distracted and lost in thought, Lolth crept up on him and sought to strike a mortal blow. The elves who favored Corellon helped to blunt the attack, but those in Lolth's camp remained aloof and detached, doing nothing to prevent her onslaught.
This act rent the elves asunder. Lolth and Corellon parted ways. Lolth became a demon lord in the Abyss and Corellon became the de facto leader of a pantheon that could no longer be trusted. The elf gods who sided with Corellon became the Seldarine, and those who fled along with Lolth became the Seldarine's dark reflection. Save for those who had been named gods, Corellon cast out the primal elves from Arvandor and consigned themselves to a physical existence on the Material Plane and other worlds of the multiverse such as the Feywild and the Shadowfell. From then on, all elves would be mortal, fixed in the forms they had adopted in defiance of Corellon's will. The elves who most revered Lolth became drow, and the others divided themselves into a multitude of surface-dwelling groups, each worshiping some or all of the Seldarine in their respective enclaves. (page 36).
Sorry, I know that was long, but I wanted to provide context. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 00:12:53
|
"Each of the other primal elves, as children will do, favored one parent over the other."
I wouldn't make such a broad statement |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 00:18:03
|
| That's what it said LOL. I quoted it directly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 01 Jun 2018 00:19:48 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 00:20:17
|
| This book is starting to get all sorts of wrong. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 14:06:05
|
| I think the thing that has annoyed me the most about the book is the combining of the 4E dusk elves with the shadar-kai of 3E and 4E. The result, maybe could have worked, but the loss of the shadar-kai being overly emotive (thus also the need to feel physically through scarring, piercings, etc.) to combat the darkness of the Shadowfell was a neat idea that I liked that appears lost. I also liked how their reaction to the Shadowfell was the opposite of the acceptance the shades practiced. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 14:08:33
|
| For me is that, as far as I've been told, Vhaeraun's concept was entirely destroyed. A servant of Lolth? Encouraging infighting for the favor of the matrons? WTH?? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 16:18:21
|
| I don't see that change to Vhaeraun at all. What I read is that Lolth has cowed him a bit by beating the crud out of him, and he is now silently stewing and plotting. Not that much different than before other than the implicit, recent beating by Lolth. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 16:20:58
|
| I'll add again that I don't see much that isn't workable in the Realms (though as I noted there may be some decisions I don't care for as presented). There is some different takes on the origins of subraces and such, but much of the lore we have on that has always been hedged as murky, so having multiple takes seems fine to me. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 16:41:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see that change to Vhaeraun at all. What I read is that Lolth has cowed him a bit by beating the crud out of him, and he is now silently stewing and plotting. Not that much different than before other than the implicit, recent beating by Lolth.
Huh, I had been told that he was changed to the core, that his followers served as bodyguards? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 17:32:16
|
| Nope. He gets 4 paragraphs and a line in a table of gods. He's not really mentioned otherwise. It does say that he "is thought of as Lolth's favored son," but then it talks about how some of his followers see him as an advocate of gender equality, which is a heresy that is savagely crushed by Lolth's faithful. It later talks about how he covers his face and no longer speaks because Lolth punished him. Ah, just found one sentence at the very end that does mention that some of his faithful serve as "masked bodyguards for matrons,' but in given the rest of the text I don't see how any of that is contrary to what we know of him in the past. He could still have double agents among Lolth's faithful and be plotting against her or he really could have been beaten into submission. I think the former is more likely, but that's just me. |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:09:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see that change to Vhaeraun at all. What I read is that Lolth has cowed him a bit by beating the crud out of him, and he is now silently stewing and plotting. Not that much different than before other than the implicit, recent beating by Lolth.
Huh, I had been told that he was changed to the core, that his followers served as bodyguards?
Yup, there have been some changes. To quote directly from the MToF again LOL:
Due to his high status in the Dark Seldarine (for a male) and because of his arrogance, a few of his worshipers look to him as an advocate of equality between male and female drow [this part hasn't changed]. That heresy, when it is expressed openly, is liable to be savagely crushed by the priestesses of Lolth. So most of Vhaeraun's male followers honor him simply by trying to carve out better lives for themselves, and that activity is tolerated. Even so, adherents of Vhaeraun don't appear in public without wearing masks. This practice exists in part because Vhaeraun is never portrayed unmasked, and partly because anonymity is a wise precaution when one challenges the social structure of the drow even in a small way.
To quash any challenge to the matriarchy that Vhaeraun might inspire in his followers, some drow communities preach that he wears a mask to hide the terrible scars from the wounds inflicted on him by Lolth as punishment for his arrogance. His silence, too, is part of his punishment, for his tongue was removed for questioning Lolth's orders. Worshipers of Vhaeraun who believe this dogma sometimes ritually scar and silence themselves as signs of their devotion, and then serve as voiceless, masked bodyguards for the matrons of their house. (page 56, bold mine).
So, whether or not the silencing and scarring is true, that was never part of his dogma or history before, let alone the practice of his followers.
Another change is that Vhaeraunites are now allowed to openly wear masks in public, whereas before, they would have been killed, at least in cities like Menzo. This part I don't mind so much. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:15:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Nope. He gets 4 paragraphs and a line in a table of gods. He's not really mentioned otherwise. It does say that he "is thought of as Lolth's favored son," but then it talks about how some of his followers see him as an advocate of gender equality, which is a heresy that is savagely crushed by Lolth's faithful. It later talks about how he covers his face and no longer speaks because Lolth punished him. Ah, just found one sentence at the very end that does mention that some of his faithful serve as "masked bodyguards for matrons,' but in given the rest of the text I don't see how any of that is contrary to what we know of him in the past. He could still have double agents among Lolth's faithful and be plotting against her or he really could have been beaten into submission. I think the former is more likely, but that's just me.
Then yeah, they butchered his concept. Gender equality, stopping the infighting, sabotaging and rebelling to the matriarchy are staples for him, not "some followers think he wants that, while others are bodyguards" (if they don't drop at least a single line about double agents, then they don't mean that, especially because if a newcomer reads this book, they're not going to know).
Mortal perspective is not an excuse, because the *core* aspect of a deity and his faith should be shared by all and be clear. It's what defines that faith? Not much of a point in even having it, if the core concept is respected only by half of it, and the other half does the exact opposite. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 18:24:30 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:17:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Another change is that Vhaeraunites are now allowed to openly wear masks in public, whereas before, they would have been killed, at least in cities like Menzo. This part I don't mind so much.
I do, because it means that his core concept of "Lolth's crushing the drow, I'm going to bring them back to their former glory" has been demolished to the point that Lolthites tolerate his worship (which basically means that he's in the same spot as Selvetarm). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 18:23:19 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:36:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Nope. He gets 4 paragraphs and a line in a table of gods. He's not really mentioned otherwise. It does say that he "is thought of as Lolth's favored son," but then it talks about how some of his followers see him as an advocate of gender equality, which is a heresy that is savagely crushed by Lolth's faithful. It later talks about how he covers his face and no longer speaks because Lolth punished him. Ah, just found one sentence at the very end that does mention that some of his faithful serve as "masked bodyguards for matrons,' but in given the rest of the text I don't see how any of that is contrary to what we know of him in the past. He could still have double agents among Lolth's faithful and be plotting against her or he really could have been beaten into submission. I think the former is more likely, but that's just me.
Then yeah, they butchered his concept. Gender equality, stopping the infighting, sabotaging and rebelling to the matriarchy are staples for him, not "some followers think he wants that, while others are bodyguards" (if they don't drop at least a single line about double agents, then they don't mean that, especially because if a newcomer reads this book, they're not going to know).
Mortal perspective is not an excuse, because the *core* aspect of a deity and his faith should be shared by all and be clear. It's what defines that faith? Not much of a point in even having it, if the core concept is respected only by half of it, and the other half does the exact opposite.
I totally agree with this, and have advocated this for most deities even before MToF. And especially concerning something like the new lore for Vhaeraun, something like whether or not he was silenced should be clear. I mean, everyone knows Gruumsh lost an eye, and that is why some of his priests maim themselves by doing the same. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:37:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Another change is that Vhaeraunites are now allowed to openly wear masks in public, whereas before, they would have been killed, at least in cities like Menzo. This part I don't mind so much.
I do, because it means that his core concept of "Lolth's crushing the drow, I'm going to bring them back to their former glory" has been demolished to the point that Lolthites tolerate his worship (which basically means that he's in the same spot as Selvetarm).
That's true, but I kind of like it because it means they aren't getting outright butchered for their faith. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 18:43:54
|
| But they aren't going to be true to their faith either... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 19:06:52
|
| Everything is written in a general format. So lots of, not on all worlds. Not all these gods are found in all worlds. In some worlds, etc. Some followers think that (the Vhaerun bit). I see nothing that isn't easily adapted. Plus this is ostensibly told from Mordenkainen's point of view. I think you have to look at it from a 2E Planescape perspective. For that matter, it's not a Realms book and makes no pretense at being one (other than the occasional paragraph about how this or that works in the various D&D worlds and the inclusion of what were world-specific racial deities, including the Realms). It's Mordenkainen, not Elminster. At the end of the day, there is some further development to elves, dwarves, and even halflings and gnomes, but much of the drow, blood war, and gith material is mostly previously existing material told from a different perspective with a little updating IMO. It's a solid D&D book, building on what came before it. Is it perfect, no. Does it have lots of specific lore about the Realms, most certainly not. Is it what it says it is, a book about the major conflicts of the multiverse with a bunch of new monsters (with a higher percentage of higher CR ones to choose from), yes, yes it is. If you play 5E, it is a very useful book to have. If you don't and have a massive catalogue of previous edition books, I wouldn't bother. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 19:14:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Everything is written in a general format. So lots of, not on all worlds. Not all these gods are found in all worlds. In some worlds, etc. Some followers think that (the Vhaerun bit). I see nothing that isn't easily adapted. Plus this is ostensibly told from Mordenkainen's point of view. I think you have to look at it from a 2E Planescape perspective. For that matter, it's not a Realms book and makes no pretense at being one (other than the occasional paragraph about how this or that works in the various D&D worlds and the inclusion of what were world-specific racial deities, including the Realms). It's Mordenkainen, not Elminster. At the end of the day, there is some further development to elves, dwarves, and even halflings and gnomes, but much of the drow, blood war, and gith material is mostly previously existing material told from a different perspective with a little updating IMO. It's a solid D&D book, building on what came before it. Is it perfect, no. Does it have lots of specific lore about the Realms, most certainly not. Is it what it says it is, a book about the major conflicts of the multiverse with a bunch of new monsters (with a higher percentage of higher CR ones to choose from), yes, yes it is. If you play 5E, it is a very useful book to have. If you don't and have a massive catalogue of previous edition books, I wouldn't bother.
I still get the sense it is going for a "universal origin story", in which case, it does cancel out the specific world origin stories. For example, it says something to the effect of even drow and elves on worlds who do not know of Lolth and Corellon feel their call. This implies that the elves and drow all came from the origin story presented in MToF. They did keep the idea of the elves springing from Corellon's blood (I don't know if that was originally a Realms-specific thing, or if it was in GreyHawk, too). They also kept the origin of Evermeet. It seems to me that they're trying to blend the worlds together.
If I'm wrong, and the events of the Realms are still relevant and haven't been altered (from a canon perspective, not a gaming, take-your-pick one), then great, but that is the impression I got from what I've read in MToF. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:01:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Everything is written in a general format. So lots of, not on all worlds. Not all these gods are found in all worlds. In some worlds, etc. Some followers think that (the Vhaerun bit). I see nothing that isn't easily adapted. Plus this is ostensibly told from Mordenkainen's point of view. I think you have to look at it from a 2E Planescape perspective. For that matter, it's not a Realms book and makes no pretense at being one (other than the occasional paragraph about how this or that works in the various D&D worlds and the inclusion of what were world-specific racial deities, including the Realms). It's Mordenkainen, not Elminster. At the end of the day, there is some further development to elves, dwarves, and even halflings and gnomes, but much of the drow, blood war, and gith material is mostly previously existing material told from a different perspective with a little updating IMO. It's a solid D&D book, building on what came before it. Is it perfect, no. Does it have lots of specific lore about the Realms, most certainly not. Is it what it says it is, a book about the major conflicts of the multiverse with a bunch of new monsters (with a higher percentage of higher CR ones to choose from), yes, yes it is. If you play 5E, it is a very useful book to have. If you don't and have a massive catalogue of previous edition books, I wouldn't bother.
I think that we have to take a step back and realize that, while Morde is an unreliable narrator, this book is the first (and, likely, only) source of info about matters like Vhaeraun in 5e. We don't live in the Realms, this is not some kind of "study on the Multiverse" or w/e, it is WotC's official version of this stuff. The unreliable narrator is just an excuse to give you (and themselves) "the permission" to ignore that lore. It doesn't change the fact that this is WotC's version of what it all is about (and Vhaeraun is a mostly FR deity). Being able to adapt this kind of stuff to your game is *not* the problem. Why would I even care to adapt something that destroys the core concept of a deity, I'll just ignore it. The problem is that this how WotC decided that Vhaeraun should be portrayed, and will continue to do so, warping his fundamental aspects.
Even setting that apart, worship of a deity may vary between worlds, but--once again--it should never take the form of behaviors that betray the core concept. If the core concept are not, well, core, then the deity lacks an identity, a flavor, and a purpose in the setting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 20:55:20 |
|
|
|
Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:31:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I see nothing that isn't easily adapted. Plus this is ostensibly told from Mordenkainen's point of view.
Quite right Tom... and even more specifically the preface indicates that it is primarily penned by Bigby, who was forcibly enchanted by Mordenkainen to do so... which is a claim put forth by the Arcanaloth Shemeshka!
There sure is a lot more trepidation about the general D&D Lore contained in this book than I would have expected considering that one of our vaunted cornerstones of FR Lore is the "unreliable narrator" concept... Personally, I like the fact that the "unreliable narrator" concept is being adopted by D&D as a whole, rather than just us Realms fans.
I liked the fact that Volo's Guide to Monsters contradicted older lore, and I like the fact that Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes contradicts older lore for the same reason... It's presented as an in-universe perspective of one or two notable NPCs, and some, all, or none of the information in it may or may not be accurate.
When I see contradictory lore, I just see possibilities... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:47:11
|
| Contradictory lore does indeed present possibilities... when it is subtle and tactful, meant to offer different perspectives. Gross alterations of a concept, character, or events are just signs of lack of research or simple disrespect of the setting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:50:24
|
| However, that they are using the unreliable narrator or not, it doesn't change the fact that this is the take WotC is going to use for these concepts in newer products. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Jun 2018 21:15:35 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:52:38
|
| ^^^This. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 20:55:27 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:57:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Even setting that apart, worship of a deity may vary between worlds, but--once again--it should never take the form of behaviors that betray the core concept.
I tend to be of the opinion that the deities are willing to accept whichever form of worship provides them with the most followers... and that can be different or contradictory from world to world, or even on the same world!
Helm is an obvious example of this... His core concept is as a guardian against evil. Helm's adherents in Faerun behave in ways to reinforce this concept as a vigilant protector... meanwhile, in Maztica, Helm's adherents behave in the exact opposite way, as aggressive brutal invaders... and we haven't even left Toril yet. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Tome of Foes FR Lore
