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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  11:36:30  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Fellow sages, does anyone knows why it was decided that there would be two Wulgreths in the North? Wulgreth was originally in the Savage Frontier sourcebook (actually, borrowed from a Dragonquest adventure from the same author), and later his "origins" where published in the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set.

However, when The Grand History of the Realms was released, or in the trilogy Return of the Archwizards (I don't know which one came first) there were two Wulgreths: one from Netheril and another from Karse. Apparently, this has to do with some timeline inconsistence, but I cannot find it. Does anyone knows it, and which author(s) decided for this change? Thanks in advance.

EDIT: typos

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 25 Apr 2018 11:37:35

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5147 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  13:07:08  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It wasn't a change. The Wulgreth in the Netheril Boxed Set is transformed into a "bestial" lich by Karsus' use of Heavy Magic.

The Wulgreth in FR5 was a human who lived in Ascalhorn, bringing ruin to that city, before moving to Karse and transforming into a lich.

Eric Boyd and I decided when compiling the history of the North that the two references could not be reconciled into a single individual. As such, the decision was made that there were two Wulgreths. This was semi-canonised in the Return of the Archwizards novel trilogy.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  14:53:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was it just me, or was heavy magic an odd concept?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5147 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  06:16:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Was it just me, or was heavy magic an odd concept?



No, not just you. A very slade addition to the Realms, rife with "????"s.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  06:46:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We usually just refer to it as 'Raw magic' now (unrestrained and unfiltered by The Weave, so... DANGEROUS).

I still think the two Wulgreths could have been reconciled... you gave a bit too much respect to the Netheril box lore, IMO. Raw Magic falls to ground and is lost. Later, Wulgreth finds it, brings it to Ascalhorn (it may have fallen in or near there) and manages to harness its power, becoming a lich. Done. If you want to keep the 'it hit someone and they became bestial', that could have been some other guy, and Larloch (he is the guy telling the story) either got it mixed up, or lied on purpose. Thus, the 'Heavy Magic' does indeed turn the one Wulgreth into a lich. Of course, we can't do that now, because there is a whole silly scene in the RotAW series where the characters fight the lich Wulgreth and then the demilich Wulgreth (and if you think it reads poorly in the lore, it is SO much worse in the story). Oh, and Elminster was running away from the 'weaker' one. Very bad scene indeed.

Thats what I came up with a long time ago, on the WotC boards, but I think with 4e behind us now, with all its own lore, I might be tempted to connect the 'Heavy Magic' to a shard of Pure evil instead (of Raw Magic). In other words, somehow Karsus managed to distill a dolop of pure Xaos-stuff out of the universe (and probably why he immediately attracted Shar's attention - there was some lore to that affect in the 3-book AP at the tail-end of 3e). Something like that would have a 'psuedo-natural aura' (Far Realms), and could easily be connected to insanity (striking someone and turning them 'bestial').


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 19:56:08
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  11:45:50  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wulgreth being bestial is the point I don't understand. The references I found in the box say that after high magic fell on the renegade Wulgreth he was immediately transformed into a lich, yes. But then, the next reference is that he destroyed Karse years later (IIRC), in revenge to what Karsus has done to him, or maybe that he was in Ascalhorn destroying the legacy of Netheril bit by bit, becoming more and more evil in the process.

In this way, I understand that one or both things could happen, and yet he would have an instantaneous physical change (into a lich) but the corruption into an evil creature could be gradative. He spends the next days, months or years discovering that Karsus was responsible for his curse, then feeding his displeasure. As his body and mental faculties rot, he became more and more evil, and ended up bringing destruction to Karse, Ascalhorn or both. And maybe he struck a bargain with devils seeking to be delivered of his curse, or as a result of this corruption. Does it make any sense?

And yes, Markustay, I think the thing falling stright over him is too much a coincidence... My take was that he tried to study the stuff to harness its powers and an accident transformed him into a lich (like a lab accident). He would blame Karsus anyway, either rationally or as a drawback of his degradation (maybe over time).

And yes, Wooly, I also think heavy magic is extremely odd...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author

Canada
226 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  16:42:08  Show Profile  Visit Murray Leeder's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wulgreth: it's like "John" for liches.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  20:09:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Liches are supposed to be EXTREMELY unique beings - each one very different, and CRAZY POWERFUL. In other settings, thats the way they were/are. Two having the same name, opertaing in the same area, without connecting them in some manner... ANY manner, is preposterous, IMHO. I think one of the few major mistakes EG made was making them so common, they've become boring in FR. It took the whole 'horror' aspect right out of it by making them mere monsters. He even turned them into 'brands' of liches... something i always hated. Every single one of them is supposed to be UNIQUE - they got the way they are because they each did their own research and followed their own path. No two should be alike. FR has 'cheapened' them, and I think 4e just made it so much worse (low level liches that regular (lowbie) characters can fight. *YUCK*

4e: "Wait... its a lich horde? Oh... thank goodness! I was afraid it was going to be orcs again. Now worries lads! Half of you can even go home now!"

Yeah... that's exactly how that felt.

quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

Wulgreth being bestial is the point I don't understand. The references I found in the box say that after high magic fell on the renegade Wulgreth he was immediately transformed into a lich, yes. But then, the next reference is that he destroyed Karse years later (IIRC), in revenge to what Karsus has done to him, or maybe that he was in Ascalhorn destroying the legacy of Netheril bit by bit, becoming more and more evil in the process.
Yeah, I'm not sure where that part came from either; I was just repeating what Krash said.

Either way, a dolop of viscous goo (thats really just pure, refined Xaos) hitting someone, or even a group of someones, and mutating them into ravening beasts sounds like a lot of fun, IMO.

EDIT:
Hmmmmm... *mutating*. Almost like it was somehow how related to The Spellplague, like a purified form of Spellplague stuff. There's a thought. Now I'm back to thinking this 'Xaos' (PURE Chaos) is really Raw (Heavy) Magic after all. My thoughts have come full circle. What if that is the 'Primal Energy' (term stolen form the excellent Well of Souls series) of the universe? The 'Primal Ooze', as it were? The natural state of things ('Elemental Maelstrom') before the universe was overwritten on top of it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 20:18:39
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  20:27:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm... after editing my above post, I gave myself a new angle on things...

So lets work with this whole 'bestial' thing (wherever it came from). What if the shock of having your body completely transformed knocked the consciousness right out of Wulgreth? Similar things have happened, like with that Shoon lich (disembodied).

So Wulgreth's soul/consciousness is driven out of his own body, which then becomes a near-mindless (Id is still functional) ravening undead... albeit a very powerful one. The consciousness of Wulgreth floats around for awhile, until it finds someone it can take over - a baby, or perhaps a young child. Ergo, 'Wulgreth reborn'. He goes looking for the thing that screwed him up so bad, finds it and takes it to Ascalhorn, and then experiments with the Heavy Magic until he can become a lich without loosing his mind.

Done & done.

P.S. - that means the story in RotAW is still intact as well - BOTH liches are the same guy. The older (demilich) is his original skull, which is quite mad, and the 'younger' one is the body he possessed later. In fact, this HELPS that story, because Bojangles (or whatever that idiot was called) kept insisting there was only ONE 'Wulgreth' (he did not differentiate between the two at all). And being a powerful undead himself, who has given his very existance to fighting Wulgreth, HE SHOULD KNOW.

Done & done-r.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 22:50:21
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3979 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  21:16:49  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was going to rewrite it so there was only one wulgreth but to be fair Markus, that was a stroke of genius you just had.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2018 :  22:50:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank You, I have my moments.

With that, we can "have our cake and eat it too".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  04:13:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Heavy magic" was only mentioned in 2E Netheril: Empire of Magic and 3.5E Magic of Incarnum. Not described in any meaningful way, aside from being an idle experimental distraction for a supra-genius archmage, being dangerous/unstable/volatile enough for him to expediently discard it, and being powerful enough to kill/lich the "random" victim it landed on. We can guess from the context that "heavy magic" is somehow liquidy or amorphous, though this is speculation. We don't know if Karsus kept this "heavy magic" in an eyedropper, a large jug, a coffin-sized vat, or even a massive building-sized smelting pot. It would be truly potent stuff if a single drop or grain or speck landed on Wulgreth ... and it would be truly horrifying stuff if enough to fill a small swimming pool covered him in liquid-like half-alive magical goop instead.

"Heavy" implies mass or inertia, in the context of tremendous effort needed to create, manipulate, or get it going - but once it's going it's nearly unstoppable, just as much tremendous effort is needed to slow it down.
"Heavy" also implies density, suggesting it somehow concentrates or contains magical power which exceeds "normal" parameters.

I'd suggest "heavy magic" is in effect not unlike the Weave, aside from having a smallish portable form rather a world-enveloping one. Possibly similar to objects created from what 2E Tome of Magic calls Wild Fire. Remember that Karsus was an arcanist/archwizard capable of casting 10th and 11th (and one 12th) level spells, capable of creating Netherese mythallars and spell-based mythals (quasi-mythals?), capable of creating a floating enclave, etc, so his "heavy magic" could have been epic stuff indeed. Although I basically treat it as yet another poorly-thought out auctorial fabrication/elaboration/exaggeration which was only mentioned in passing and isn't entirely plausible or consistent with the story/setting/rules it was supposed to enrich.

[/Ayrik]
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  14:58:06  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We can guess from the context that "heavy magic" is somehow liquidy or amorphous, though this is speculation. We don't know if Karsus kept this "heavy magic" in an eyedropper, a large jug, a coffin-sized vat, or even a massive building-sized smelting pot.


Actually, the text implies it was viscous:
"Heavy magic (...) was like a sphere of clear honey that didn’t leave any residue after contact but instead slowly extricated itself from any object it came in contact with. Moving a hand or walking through heavy magic created effects similar to moving through hip-deep water."

The amount involved in Wulgreth's accident was not an eyedrop, for sure:
"when Karsus cast the heavy magic spell, he created 41 cubic feet."

And let's not forget that turning Wulgreth into a lich was not purely from contacting heavy magic itself: the material was always empowered by some spell, and the one which affected Wulgreth was enchanted with an energy drain spell:
"He enspelled the thick, gelatinous blob with a Volhm’s drain spell, which was designed to transfer magical power to the largest power source within a 2,500-foot radius (...)"

Anyway, I thank you all for your responses, and still wait for Mr. Krashos or Mr. Boyd to answer me about the bestial aspect of Wulgreth, for maybe there is something I missed or misunderstood.

EDIT: Typos and edition

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 30 Apr 2018 15:02:27
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2018 :  13:55:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Was it just me, or was heavy magic an odd concept?



No, not just you. A very slade addition to the Realms, rife with "????"s.

-- George Krashos



I'll give him props for the concept though. Basically having a "medium" in which one can place a spell and then "slather" it and its effects onto things becomes very useful. However, like many spells designed in 2e, the actual rules for heavy magic need refinement. The stuff becomes very similar to Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments to a degree, which is much more defined. Where I would probably recommend setting the rulings as a start would be to state that heavy magic can generally only be used to hold abjuration, transmutation, divination, and illusion effects. Spells from other schools would need DM adjudication. I'd then lay out a listing of specific effects that can be used from these schools with a note that similar effects may also be used with DM adjudication.

The idea of heavy magic opens up the ability to turn an entire wall into a scrying sensor (or possibly several scrying sensors) for instance so that a king/general might be able to have watch a battle unfold from multiple directions like a modern day wall of monitors in a security system. Similarly, it can be used to adapt protection spells to "fit" specific needs to protect individuals from some evil. The example they give of using hallucinatory terrain as well, if instead used with something like programmed illusion could be used to give individuals being kept in isolation at least some semblance of interaction with society.

The one thing I never liked about the description of its creation was the linear progression in how much could be made. In other words, some 20th lvl wizard makes 20 cubic feet, but a 40th level wizard make 40 cubic feet. I've always pictured it that the 20th level wizard might be filling a small tub, whereas the 40th level wizard should be able to make vats of the stuff. Although it makes the math a pain, I'd personally recommend this formula {wizard level/5)^cubed. This would put the 20th level wizard making 64 cubic feet and the 40th lvl wizard making 512 cubic feet. I'd then add a specification that the thinnest layer one can use is 1 inch think, but also add a caveat that multiple one inch layers could be placed "within" one another creating enhancements to the effect (to a maximum of 12 such layers combined). Each such "layering" may also have to have a "drying" phase of say an hour where it "adjusts and stabilizes to its new form" before a new layer can be added.

Some of the other questions that come up though are "how long can it hold an effect?". Seemingly from the descriptions, anything dropped "into" heavy magic appears to be permanent. I wouldn't make this the "standard", but rather than a 1 inch layer lasts as long as a standard spell of the same effect, and that it may be be extended by the square of the number of layers until permanency is achieved at 12 layers.

Finally, I've always felt that one of the strong things that 3e came up with was the idea of feats to control what spellcasters can do. Much like I like the idea of spell mantle as feat with a dependency on craft contingent spell, and Persistent Spell as a feat with dependency on extend spell, and craft construct with a dependency on craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items, and the retributive spell as a feat..... I think create heavy magic should be a feat with a dependency on brew potion and attune gem as feats. Basically not every wizard should understand HOW to make this stuff, but those who do should be able to benefit from it.

That being said, I also like the concept of 5e wherein feats are not as "tightly focused" and therefore for 5e, many of the above might be able to be combined into a single feat path. The problem being of course that 5e also doesn't want to allow for feats being exceptionally powerful. This is of course one of its weaknesses, because there really should be something that strongly allows characters to distinguish themselves from others besides the owning of magical items OR the DM adjudication of some god's favor.

[b]Below from Netheril: Empire of Magic just for the conversation.[b/]
Heavy magic, unlike other forms of magic, was a tangible
force. It was like a sphere of clear honey that didn’t leave any
residue after contact but instead slowly extricated itself from any
object it came in contact with. Moving a hand or walking through
heavy magic created effects similar to moving through hip-deep
water.

Karsus discovered that heavy magic could be enchanted with other spells. He also determined that heavy magic could be “painted” or “daubed” on any surface (like a wall, door, or mechanism), and the surface would take on the effect. Karsus found it very handy to force a bit of heavy magic enhanced with a dispel magic into a lock, especially when it disabled the use of detect traps and deactivated a magical lock pick set.

One cubic foot of heavy magic (weighing one pound) could be created by an arcanist for each level of experience, so when Karsus cast the heavy magic spell, he created 41 cubic feet. He enspelled the thick, gelatinous blob with a Volhm’s drain spell, which was designed to transfer magical power to the largest power source within a 2,500-foot radius-and it began sapping the energies released from the mythallar. The Volhm’s drain spell both collected and sent the power back to the mythallar, robbing the enclave of magical power.

The whole enclave began toppling toward the ground, and the street lights and all the quasimagical items used on the flying city flickered and pulsed. In a desperate move, Karsus levitated the
heavy magic and used Tolodine’s gust of wind to force it over the
side of the city. It plummeted to the High Forest. Wulgreth, a renegade arcanist living in the area, was slain and turned into a lich
when Karsus’s heavy magic absorbed his life energies.

Karsus spent the next few years studying this new concept in magic and tried to make it work. He liked the idea of enspelling a mass of heavy magic and liberally painting the spell effect on whatever he wanted. He painted a Toscudlo’s hallucinatory terrain on the walls and ceiling of an entire room, creating a sort of disoriented realm of dreams. He was able to make a judicial podium that notified everyone in the courtroom when someone lied while on the stand.

While attempting to figure out other ways to use heavy magic, Unity, a city on the northern border of the Far Horns Forest, was infiltrated by fiends from the lower planes who sought the city as
a staging grounds for an eventual takeover of Karsus. They would
have succeeded, but Karsus and his most trusted advisors and
“friends” used heavy magic imbued with Oberon’s dismissal and
Aksa’s disintegrate spells to banish and slay the beasts over a
three-year time period.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2018 :  14:26:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the concept could have worked better if it was something other magic-absorbing goo, and particularly if it had a name other than "heavy magic." To me, that name invokes heavy water and WWII movies.

And one cubic foot being just a pound is not heavy.

If the idea was something like casting a spell on an inert material, then somehow transforming that inert material into another format, which made the earlier spell active, then that I could have accepted. But an inconveniently-named ball of spherical handwavium? Nope, that doesn't work.

Maybe some sort of stone... When properly treated, stone becomes magically inert: it will absorb spells cast into it, assuming they specifically target the stone, and it just holds them. Later, the stone can be worked into other forms -- even ground down to powder -- without affecting the stored magic. If ground down to powder, the powder can then be mixed with a special liquid, making a kind of slurry that acts the way heavy magic does. Or maybe the stone has to be ground down, first, then treated with this already-prepared alchemical extract, and then you have the heavy magic.

So you get the same end effect, but it's something more than just summon magic goo to get there.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 May 2018 16:09:15
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2018 :  18:40:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not really worried about the name. I get his concept of why he called it heavy, that basically being that most magic is ephemeral and without tangibility (for instance, even if you summon a stone, the stone has mass, but the magic essentially has no mass). Also, as to "how" its created, I'm not real worried on that either. For all I care they're using some kind of petroleum jelly mixed with water and making it susceptible to absorbing magic.... or its some kind of paint medium... My main thing I picture is that once its actually enchanted it has to be put down relatively soon as it starts to become something that has to be "attached". Note, I'd also say that the formula I used in the last email might also be something where the "thickness" of the spread might be modified to 1/8" inch thickness instead of 1 inch thickness by making the formula (wizard level/10)^cubed.


By the way, I was surprised later when about a decade or two after the concept of Heavy Magic I started seeing this kind of stuff

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329140351.htm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/10/22/printed-tv-will-be-on-your-living-room-in-five-years-says-israeli-nanotech-professor/#561f02bd47cd

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 May 2018 18:46:13
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2018 :  13:11:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed, "one cubic foot being just a pound" isn't very heavy at all. Quite the opposite.

One cubic foot of water weighs over 62 pounds.
One cubic foot of lithium, the lightest and lowest-density solid element on the Periodic Table, weighs over 33 pounds.
One cubic foot of graphene aerogel, currently the lightest and lowest-density solid substance known, weighs almost 10 pounds.
One cubic foot of 2-methyl butane, the lightest liquid at around "room" temperature, weighs over 38 pounds.
One cubic foot of liquid hydrogen, the lightest liquid possible (at -253°C), weighs over 4.4 pounds.
... At least as far as these substances have been measured by our science on our world, lol.

But "one cubic foot being just a pound" is quite heavy indeed when compared against something (like magic) which otherwise has no tangible weight or mass.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 02 May 2018 13:31:58
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2018 :  13:51:38  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Viscous but very light, then...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2018 :  14:21:25  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

Wulgreth being bestial is the point I don't understand...



Reading it again I think maybe the point which made the stories hard to concile was not the Netherese Wulgreth being bestial, but the Ascalhorn Wulgreth being human, and embracing lichdom later, in Karse. If this is the case, would not be possible that the lich was somehow disguised as a living human, while in Ascalhorn? In this case, I would keep the plot I suggested, and Jhingleshod would also have revealed this ruse to Karse inhabitants.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2018 :  12:05:04  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mr. Krashos answered me in his thread. Aside from other matters, he told me he and Mr. Boyd both "(...) noted how it made little sense for Wulgreth of Netheril to go and live in Ascalhorn for over a 1000 years and then travel to Karse to enact his revenge." This was the answer I was looking for, and I thank him for sharing this bit of lore.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 01 Jun 2018 :  21:20:38  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We usually just refer to it as 'Raw magic' now (unrestrained and unfiltered by The Weave, so... DANGEROUS).

I still think the two Wulgreths could have been reconciled... you gave a bit too much respect to the Netheril box lore, IMO. Raw Magic falls to ground and is lost. Later, Wulgreth finds it, brings it to Ascalhorn (it may have fallen in or near there) and manages to harness its power, becoming a lich. Done. If you want to keep the 'it hit someone and they became bestial', that could have been some other guy, and Larloch (he is the guy telling the story) either got it mixed up, or lied on purpose. Thus, the 'Heavy Magic' does indeed turn the one Wulgreth into a lich. Of course, we can't do that now, because there is a whole silly scene in the RotAW series where the characters fight the lich Wulgreth and then the demilich Wulgreth (and if you think it reads poorly in the lore, it is SO much worse in the story). Oh, and Elminster was running away from the 'weaker' one. Very bad scene indeed.

Thats what I came up with a long time ago, on the WotC boards, but I think with 4e behind us now, with all its own lore, I might be tempted to connect the 'Heavy Magic' to a shard of Pure evil instead (of Raw Magic). In other words, somehow Karsus managed to distill a dolop of pure Xaos-stuff out of the universe (and probably why he immediately attracted Shar's attention - there was some lore to that affect in the 3-book AP at the tail-end of 3e). Something like that would have a 'psuedo-natural aura' (Far Realms), and could easily be connected to insanity (striking someone and turning them 'bestial').




I always thought of it as something more.... condensed.

For example, if one thinks of the various pools of radiance as 'raw magic' I thought of Heavy Magic as a kind of distilled magic - thicker and more concentrated, and also MUCH more difficult to use without disaster.

It is among the things I would have loved to have had detailed rather than glossed over in the North book.
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