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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 18:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
That is why I mentioned that such alliances would be made by his sister and he could "take on" those promises.
Embrurshaile died (was consumed by an errant spell of hers, actually) some 500+ years before Iyrauroth would have entered his slumber, and, in any case is depicted as more of a crazed loner type who talks to herself and devises a solitary magnum opus of metaphysical theory rather than a political figure. More of a Karsus type than a Manshoon one.
At least Iyrauroth is presented as having worked with others on occasion, making it more plausible that any allegiances date to his tenure in the area (between something like -350 DR to the start of Dale Reckoning and the last recorded sighting of him in 572 DR), which was two centuries at minimum, but more probably between seven or nine centuries.
After Embrurshaile's death, Iyrauroth was a major player in her former stomping grounds for a long time, probably about as long as he spent slumbering after the reports of him stop in the 6th century DR.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
They live in dwarven fortress city so they are protected plenty. That basically means they would focus on thing they know best - multiply. Any overpopulation is solved by sending large group to war with anybody close by. They would be known in underdark but on surface they would be taken as another orc group causing problems. At least in my realms nobody made that connection.
Why 'dwarven' fortress city?
Mount Grimmerfang was the seat of the Overking of Vastar in 572 DR and at that time, Vastar had existed in the area for about thirteen centuries. Surely, it would seem logical that any halls, thrones and fortifications existing under the Hollow Mountain at the time Iyrauroth ate Ologh were built by the orcs of Vastar.
Dwarves are only recorded as having held the Hollow Mountain for a single human generation, about thirty years, and that was after taking it from orcs weakened by civil war.
Granted, it's possible to imagine a truly ancient dwarf mine under the Hollow Mountain dating back to Sarphil in the fifth millennia before Dale Reckoning, but as far as I'm aware, canon doesn't mention anything about the Hollow Mountain until it enters the historical record as the capital of an orcish kingdom.
Remember, the orcs who founded Vastar in the 8th century BDR were grey orc descendants of the Orcgate Wars orcs, who were much more advanced, organized and civilized than modern orcs and were led by deities, demigods and divine incarnations in the wars shortly before emigrating to the Vast.
Gruumsh is a god of territory and conquest, so grey orc warlords with the blood of his incarnations seem very likely to have built grand fortresses in the new lands they conquered, after regrouping from their painful defeat to the Old Empires.
Even if there was a structure of some sort there when the orcs ocfupied it, it would seem more likely to have been built by the minotaurs of Grong-Haap than dwarves.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Also I hate those template battles - turtle ninja with wings and holy sword flying on purple carpet.
For me city of orcs that have some better equipment and possible help of kobolds sounds fine. Now they have dragon so they get bold...
The PCs are allied with an orcish 'king' in the Earthfasts, Urbakh the Undying, who wants to reunite the divided clans into a new kingdom of Vastar. The orcs living near Mount Grimmerfang are not considered among the potential subjects of a reinvigorated Vastar, for some reason, as despite holding the old orcish capital, they've made no claim to the title of Overking for untold orcish generations.
Having the local orc tribe be 'polluted' from the perspective of orthodox grey orc shamans and warchanters, because of breeding with dragons and/or demons, provides a good reason why Mount Grimmerfang is not a center for modern grey orc racial pride and the ambitions of warlords dreaming of past glories.
The PCs won't massacre orcs just for being orcish, but demonic descendants of Iyrauroth bred to be perfect warriors are another matter entirely. Orcs are people, albeit callous and violent people from a vicious culture, who unfortunately compete for the same resources as humans. Demons, dragons and their spawn bred for warfare are much easier to view as simply monstrous, whether or not that view is justified or not. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 18:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
In Dragons of Faerun, I detailed a host of magic items and artifacts contained within the horde of Sharpfangs (Tethyr / Calimshan). I had the idea for a campaign that was the aftermath of a dragon's death (either by the PCs or by old age or some third party). Basically, once the horde is "up for grabs", the ensuing rush to reacquired items of historical import could be cataclysmic for the surrounding area.
Anyhow, it would be fun to start thinking about Iyrauroth's horde. What's in there that would unleash one group or another or one army or another, if only it was restored to whomever values it most?
Well, in my campaign, the reports of Iyrauroth's death (exaggerated) or crippling (somewhat closer to the truth) have brought out dwarves from the Earthfasts seeking relics and items lost in the fall of Roldilar, like the Ardelve and the regalia of the Realm of Glittering Swords.
They've also brought a group of questing orcs, following Yuraugh Farseer, a blind and ancient orcish prophet who was once a Hordemaster of Ilneval, seeking to recover various symbols of authority and rulership associated with the kingdom of Vastar.
Suggestions on what, exactly, these different historical relics and symbols of authority might be are welcome. Bonus points, of course, for any truly ancient and revered artifacts both races claim as an item made by or associated with a cultural hero (or even divine ircantations or demigod, for the orcs), with the true origins unknown to neutral sages (until someone recovers the item).
I must claim some inspiration from Sir Terry Pratchett's Thud. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 18:58:37
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| I'd have to think about how they ended up in the dragon's horde, but perhaps some elven artifacts or relics "liberated" by the drow during the Elven Court Massacre? I could also imagine there are lost demon-summoning artifacts from the Nentyarch's Court ere Narfell's fall. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 23 Sep 2019 19:25:25 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 01:47:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'd have to think about how they ended up in the dragon's horde, but perhaps some elven artifacts or relics "liberated" by the drow during the Elven Court Massacre? I could also imagine there are lost demon-summoning artifacts from the Nentyarch's Court ere Narfell's fall.
A drow settlement within the territory of Embrurshaile and later Iyrauroth could provide both, especially if Embrurshaile or Iyrauroth initially allied or coexisted with it, but later the temptation of their magics grew too much for either dragon and the dark elves fell to acid and claw.
I'd make the drow an offshoot of Maerimydra or Nar'Vheen (Living City materials, located below Calaunt), probably religious seperatists worshipping demon lords involved in the history of Narfell and Raumathar.
I'm also very interested in suggestions for dwarven relics from Sarphil, Felimar and Roldilar, as well as orcish relics of fallen Vastar. The odd minotaur relic of Grong-Haap, ogre relic of Thar and giant artifacts* are other possibilities.
Also, the grey orcs who ended up in the Vast in the eleventh and tenth centuries before Dale Reckoning had recently been part of titanic battles between physical incarnations of orcish deities and the pantheons of Mulhorand and Unther. Some quasi-divine warlords and champions might have made off with religious artifacts belonging to incarnations of the human deities, seized in the earlier phases of the war, when the orcs overran the northern provinces of the Old Empires (e.g. modern Thay).
*Artifacts and relics in the archeological and historical sense, not necessarily the (A)D&D term of art one, though I am by no means opposed to having some of these be items of potent magic. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 00:12:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Embrurshaile died (was consumed by an errant spell of hers, actually) some 500+ years before Iyrauroth would have entered his slumber, and, in any case is depicted as more of a crazed loner type who talks to herself and devises a solitary magnum opus of metaphysical theory rather than a political figure. More of a Karsus type than a Manshoon one.
At least Iyrauroth is presented as having worked with others on occasion, making it more plausible that any allegiances date to his tenure in the area (between something like -350 DR to the start of Dale Reckoning and the last recorded sighting of him in 572 DR), which was two centuries at minimum, but more probably between seven or nine centuries.
After Embrurshaile's death, Iyrauroth was a major player in her former stomping grounds for a long time, probably about as long as he spent slumbering after the reports of him stop in the 6th century DR.
That make sense. I haven't delved into their characters and only thought about timeline - Iyrauroth was too late for any Sarphil connections to make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Why 'dwarven' fortress city?
Mount Grimmerfang was the seat of the Overking of Vastar in 572 DR and at that time, Vastar had existed in the area for about thirteen centuries. Surely, it would seem logical that any halls, thrones and fortifications existing under the Hollow Mountain at the time Iyrauroth ate Ologh were built by the orcs of Vastar.
Dwarves are only recorded as having held the Hollow Mountain for a single human generation, about thirty years, and that was after taking it from orcs weakened by civil war.
Granted, it's possible to imagine a truly ancient dwarf mine under the Hollow Mountain dating back to Sarphil in the fifth millennia before Dale Reckoning, but as far as I'm aware, canon doesn't mention anything about the Hollow Mountain until it enters the historical record as the capital of an orcish kingdom.
Remember, the orcs who founded Vastar in the 8th century BDR were grey orc descendants of the Orcgate Wars orcs, who were much more advanced, organized and civilized than modern orcs and were led by deities, demigods and divine incarnations in the wars shortly before emigrating to the Vast.
Gruumsh is a god of territory and conquest, so grey orc warlords with the blood of his incarnations seem very likely to have built grand fortresses in the new lands they conquered, after regrouping from their painful defeat to the Old Empires.
Even if there was a structure of some sort there when the orcs ocfupied it, it would seem more likely to have been built by the minotaurs of Grong-Haap than dwarves.
So the oldest known structures around are giant built (Ironfang keep) so if something would be really old that would be my bet. Later as you say there was a Sarphil which could build some structure underground. I personaly view orcs as surface race so for me they occupied Earthspur mts but did not delved in. Name Hollow Mountain should then be based on Roldilar city or something older.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The PCs are allied with an orcish 'king' in the Earthfasts, Urbakh the Undying, who wants to reunite the divided clans into a new kingdom of Vastar. The orcs living near Mount Grimmerfang are not considered among the potential subjects of a reinvigorated Vastar, for some reason, as despite holding the old orcish capital, they've made no claim to the title of Overking for untold orcish generations.
Having the local orc tribe be 'polluted' from the perspective of orthodox grey orc shamans and warchanters, because of breeding with dragons and/or demons, provides a good reason why Mount Grimmerfang is not a center for modern grey orc racial pride and the ambitions of warlords dreaming of past glories.
The PCs won't massacre orcs just for being orcish, but demonic descendants of Iyrauroth bred to be perfect warriors are another matter entirely. Orcs are people, albeit callous and violent people from a vicious culture, who unfortunately compete for the same resources as humans. Demons, dragons and their spawn bred for warfare are much easier to view as simply monstrous, whether or not that view is justified or not.
You have a nice backstory which explain your need for significant difference. For me one dragon settled the city long ago and that is the reason why orcs are not making claims about their kingdom's capital. After it died they hoped for some time but then it's kin came and claimed it again. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 00:24:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'd have to think about how they ended up in the dragon's horde, but perhaps some elven artifacts or relics "liberated" by the drow during the Elven Court Massacre? I could also imagine there are lost demon-summoning artifacts from the Nentyarch's Court ere Narfell's fall.
A drow settlement within the territory of Embrurshaile and later Iyrauroth could provide both, especially if Embrurshaile or Iyrauroth initially allied or coexisted with it, but later the temptation of their magics grew too much for either dragon and the dark elves fell to acid and claw.
I'd make the drow an offshoot of Maerimydra or Nar'Vheen (Living City materials, located below Calaunt), probably religious seperatists worshipping demon lords involved in the history of Narfell and Raumathar.
I'm also very interested in suggestions for dwarven relics from Sarphil, Felimar and Roldilar, as well as orcish relics of fallen Vastar. The odd minotaur relic of Grong-Haap, ogre relic of Thar and giant artifacts* are other possibilities.
Also, the grey orcs who ended up in the Vast in the eleventh and tenth centuries before Dale Reckoning had recently been part of titanic battles between physical incarnations of orcish deities and the pantheons of Mulhorand and Unther. Some quasi-divine warlords and champions might have made off with religious artifacts belonging to incarnations of the human deities, seized in the earlier phases of the war, when the orcs overran the northern provinces of the Old Empires (e.g. modern Thay).
*Artifacts and relics in the archeological and historical sense, not necessarily the (A)D&D term of art one, though I am by no means opposed to having some of these be items of potent magic.
Sarphil was known for it's mining of pure copper from under Cormanthor so they could have some art objects from that era.
Roldilar was known for it's Glittering swords - my take on this is a metal that is poisonous to orcs and looks little like obsidian (glittering in light). I found it more interesting than simple orcbane magic and it make more sense with wide usage.
To the elven artefacts - Ylraphon is former elven city that was plundered by orcs if memory serves. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 18:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
That make sense. I haven't delved into their characters and only thought about timeline - Iyrauroth was too late for any Sarphil connections to make sense.
Well, he could have found fallen dwarfholds of Sarphil, slain the drow or duergar occupying them, seized all accumulated treasures, be they dwarven, drow or otherwise, and made use of the ancient structure as a lair (especially if it had both huge halls and a defensible location).
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
So the oldest known structures around are giant built (Ironfang keep) so if something would be really old that would be my bet. Later as you say there was a Sarphil which could build some structure underground.
Of course, we don't know the age of any artificial delvings or structures in the Hollow Mountain. All we know that by the 6th century Dale Reckoning, the place was apparently regarded by the orcs of Vastar as the legitimate seat of the ruling monarch over them all.
From that, I'd extrapolate that it had been in orcish hands for centuries by that time, as otherwise, some other grand fortress in the lands of Vastar would more probably be the seat of the Overking. After all, this was in the thirteenth century of Vastar history and there is no record of any other capital.
Mount Grimmerfang is not necessarily the only capital Vastar ever had, but by the time Ologh was eaten, it was strongly enough associated with rulership of Vastar that no orc chieftain or warlord who held another fortress or stronghold could proclaim himself Overking, only the one who managed to hold Mount Grimmerfang. To me, that suggests that there were centuries of orcish history behind Mount Grimmerfang and that the Hollow Mountain had been an orcish stronghold before the founding of Cormyr and the raising of the Standing Stone.
For my campaign, I have two possibilities that I want to explore. Either the Hollow Mountain has always been the capital of Vastar, ever since its founding in the eight century before Dale Reckoning, or, it became the capital of a much larger and more powerful Vastar in the fourth century BDR, after the minotaur kingdom of Grong-Haap fell and Vastar expanded into its former lands.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I personaly view orcs as surface race so for me they occupied Earthspur mts but did not delved in. Name Hollow Mountain should then be based on Roldilar city or something older.
Given that the average orc is armed and armoured in metal and orcs are not noted as a trading culture, it's logically impossible for them not to mine their homelands extensively to get all that iron they need. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 23:33:44
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Iyrauroth was also late for any last will so he had to inspect her domain for any lair and take what he found as his so sure ruins of Sarphil sounds ideal.
As you describe it I think there must be something special about Mount Grimmerfang that make all orcs in region take it this seriously. Something that they cannot just build elsewhere...
This area was a center of Ostoria very long time ago and as we know giant structures are there to stay. I understand it that Mount Grimmerfang is the most significant in whole range so it make sense even for giants to make it a seat of power. So lets say that high on the mountain is a plateu where giants had a court under open sky with a throne for their ruler. This is the center of later Vastar as orcs used this place and the term Overking is partly because of the size of the throne (biger than other kings). It might impart some magical abilities to one sitting on the throne to make it more unique.
Dwarves from Roldilar knew about this place but refused to keep their king and whole court in such nondefended position and made a dwarven city inside the mountan. To orcs it only confirmed importance of the mountain and after they got it back they used the city and called it Hallow Mountain.
Dragons had long battled the giants of Ostoria so they refuse to aknowledge the importance of the place but also do not let anyone claim it. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 22:37:42
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Senior Scribe Wrigley,
Do you think it possible that the Dwarves of Tethyamar would have worked alongside the Dwarves of Sarphil? It just popped into my head, due to proximity.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'd have to think about how they ended up in the dragon's horde, but perhaps some elven artifacts or relics "liberated" by the drow during the Elven Court Massacre? I could also imagine there are lost demon-summoning artifacts from the Nentyarch's Court ere Narfell's fall.
A drow settlement within the territory of Embrurshaile and later Iyrauroth could provide both, especially if Embrurshaile or Iyrauroth initially allied or coexisted with it, but later the temptation of their magics grew too much for either dragon and the dark elves fell to acid and claw.
I'd make the drow an offshoot of Maerimydra or Nar'Vheen (Living City materials, located below Calaunt), probably religious seperatists worshipping demon lords involved in the history of Narfell and Raumathar.
I'm also very interested in suggestions for dwarven relics from Sarphil, Felimar and Roldilar, as well as orcish relics of fallen Vastar. The odd minotaur relic of Grong-Haap, ogre relic of Thar and giant artifacts* are other possibilities.
Also, the grey orcs who ended up in the Vast in the eleventh and tenth centuries before Dale Reckoning had recently been part of titanic battles between physical incarnations of orcish deities and the pantheons of Mulhorand and Unther. Some quasi-divine warlords and champions might have made off with religious artifacts belonging to incarnations of the human deities, seized in the earlier phases of the war, when the orcs overran the northern provinces of the Old Empires (e.g. modern Thay).
*Artifacts and relics in the archeological and historical sense, not necessarily the (A)D&D term of art one, though I am by no means opposed to having some of these be items of potent magic.
Sarphil was known for it's mining of pure copper from under Cormanthor so they could have some art objects from that era.
Roldilar was known for it's Glittering swords - my take on this is a metal that is poisonous to orcs and looks little like obsidian (glittering in light). I found it more interesting than simple orcbane magic and it make more sense with wide usage.
To the elven artefacts - Ylraphon is former elven city that was plundered by orcs if memory serves.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Iyrauroth, his get and his lairs
