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Qilintha
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  01:00:48  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
While I was reading for the ...hundredth time the Grand History of the Realms I stumbled upon the Dukars and they really intrigued me, I read in this forum a parallelism between Dukars and Jedi Orders sooo...is there any chance that there is a fifth Evil Dukar order? After all Sea of Fallen Stars says that Dukars vanished quickly because of inner fighting and strife and the lorekeeper path could easily erase any sign of their existance. The evil order gaining strength would also explain why all of a sudden they went into hiding instead of proudly showing themselves as they used to do in the past. Any ideas?

(Don't know if I should have asked here or in Running the Realms, sorry if I posted in the wrong section feel free to move it)

Edited by - Qilintha on 29 Mar 2018 01:02:49

Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2412 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  02:10:30  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a fifth order, the Order of Nantari. They were made up of dukars trained in Myth Nantar who swore fealty to the elven empire of Aryselmalyr. They went to war against the other orders during the Third Seros War (in a sub-conflicted call the First Dukars' War). This all happened in the -1500 century DR. Though not explicitly stated, it's probable that the Nantari were all (or almost all) sea elves.

The order was officially dissolved in -1501 DR when the Dukars became independent once more, and there's no further mention of them. The Second Dukars' War, starting in -238 DR, doesn't mention the Nantari at all. It seems to have been sparked by hardline interventionists amongst the Jhimari and Numosi.

That's as far as canon takes us. However, given the existence of things like the Eldreth Veluuthra, I think it's entirely plausible for a few Nantari to have either survived the First War and hidden, or publicly recanted while secretly retaining their beliefs and converting apprentices. Which would give you the opportunity for a "Sith growing in the Jedi" scenario. Or Hydra in SHIELD, to use the second Captain America movie.

However, the core value of the Order of Nantari was loyalty to and protection of the empire of Aryselmalyr. However, that nation fell in -255 DR, so if you posit a secret cabal of Nantari, you need to come up with something for them to have spent the past 1600 years scheming about.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5082 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  06:03:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Steven is more of a comics fan than Star Wars fan. The Emerald Eye of Vynagyr is the biggest give away in that respect. I do have his original dukar notes somewhere - I'll see if they were more Star Wars-y before editing.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Qilintha
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  13:27:23  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the Fifth Order is still nonevil, It's different from Sith or Hydra. While waiting for George Krashos notes my idea was sort of like this, a morkoth more curious than others fought a couple of dukars, killed one , charmed the other and admired the Coral Hand powers. Maybe he thought of creating an order as an easy way to gain regular income of food, charming dukars to spread word about this new vision of Dukar. Orders were given by telepathy by the morkoth itself or the charmed people.


After a while the order would become self-sustained,despite the few charmed most of members would actually believe on the vision of this new order, maybe this order activated a first time during the Sixth Seros War against the sea elves. Maybe this secret order became afterwards the Theocracy of Deep ones?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2412 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  15:41:27  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anything is possible. However there are four orders of dukars because they're based on elven dualism: a form of specialization that focuses on one school of magic and its direct opposite. That's the main pillar of dukar magical theory; the Coral Hand was developed later. A "fifth order" would either need to have a completely different magical tradition (at which point they aren't dukars anymore), or would need to be made up of members of all four orders mashed together for some other purpose (like loyalty to Aryselmalyr).

Not impossible to do, but it bears some thinking on.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5082 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  16:21:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well nothing about Jedi, but the Dukars were originally going to be called the Adherents and in addition to the existing orders there were going to be "Rogue Adherents" and "Black Adherents".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3838 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  16:31:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like the lantern corps to me

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Qilintha
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  17:33:57  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any intel about the Black and Rogue Adherents?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6913 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  17:56:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Steven is more of a comics fan than Star Wars fan. The Emerald Eye of Vynagyr is the biggest give away in that respect. I do have his original dukar notes somewhere - I'll see if they were more Star Wars-y before editing.

-- George Krashos



Let me guess... Green Lantern Fan?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2412 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  19:53:20  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As someone who hasn't read comics, can you explain?

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
186 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  21:20:41  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
is there some 2e or 3e rules for the peacekeepers and lorekeepers? Or is they mechanically the same?

Hoondatha: Lots of indirect References to the "Green Lantern" Comics.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2412 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  22:18:31  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of the rules for the dukars are in the 2e book Sea of Fallen Stars. They have an entire chapter. Peacekeepers and Lorekeepers have somewhat different mechanics. Lorekeepers are essentially dualists. They have access to 2 schools - a school and its opposite - get +2 spells/level, +2/-2 save versus or enemy save against magic of those schools, and a 90% chance to learn spells from their school. Their coral hand is only a 1d4 weapon, nothing else.

The peacekeepers have the same school restrictions as lorekeepers, but normal wizard abilities (number of spells and no bonuses to saves/learning). They instead get the coral hand paths, which they can increase in ability as they gain levels.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15633 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  23:15:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to be the jerk here...

Despite finding everything that Mr.Schend writes excellent, and I enjoyed his two Blackstaff novels, I just don't understand the depth (pun intended) of all this 'undersea' lore. A ton of effort that less than 1% of the gamers will ever use.

I actually was annoyed by all the underwater entries in the GHotR, because I felt that room would have been better-served with USEFUL lore. I was of the opinion that that material - and the genealogies - would have been better off in web-enhancements. Just my 2¢

So now that I've probably pissed-off everyone here who likes "lore for lore's sake" (which is probably every member of CK LOL), I'll go back to being frustrated by my map files (they HATE me you know).

(and just so I don't annoy the mods by coming in here and not contributing anything 'positive' to the conversation) I never noticed the GL references, but then again, I haven't read any DC comics in almost thirty years, and its been at least ten years since I read either of the SoFS books (though I use the Pirates one as a reference a LOT). Excellent lore, as I've said, but the all-sea one I find I never bothered with after the first read. And I LOVE pirates, and sea-born adventures, but no party I every ran jumped into the water (unless you count the idiot that drowned in a pond). I just have no use for info about whats going on underneath the waves - it has no bearing on my games, and I doubt it has any bearing on 99.9% of the games being played. I often wonder just how many people actually ran the Wyrmskull Throne adventure.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2018 23:16:14
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Qilintha
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  00:07:11  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think one of the perks of Forgotten Realms is that there is a lot of lore, for really every taste, I agree that underwater adventures are less common but it's nice that if you do want to make one you have tons of lore you can use for it.

Returning in topic, a mixture of those orders with a different purpose, maybe an opposite one than the original one, destruction and deception, could be done, an order that hidden in the shadows would push towards the chaos instead of peace and order. But I agree that it's something that needs a lot of work on.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5082 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  01:27:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Steven is more of a comics fan than Star Wars fan. The Emerald Eye of Vynagyr is the biggest give away in that respect. I do have his original dukar notes somewhere - I'll see if they were more Star Wars-y before editing.

-- George Krashos



Let me guess... Green Lantern Fan?



Yes, and Legion of Super Heroes.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5082 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  01:41:43  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm going to be the jerk here...

Despite finding everything that Mr.Schend writes excellent, and I enjoyed his two Blackstaff novels, I just don't understand the depth (pun intended) of all this 'undersea' lore. A ton of effort that less than 1% of the gamers will ever use.

I actually was annoyed by all the underwater entries in the GHotR, because I felt that room would have been better-served with USEFUL lore. I was of the opinion that that material - and the genealogies - would have been better off in web-enhancements. Just my 2¢



You're not being a jerk, but you have no knowledge of the development process for GHotR. They took Brian's compiled timeline (with his own excellent pre-history ideas/additions) and made it into a book. Ed agitated for a few of the grognards to get involved in the context of writing up those little vignettes to break up the "date wall". That's when I revealed that I had a timeline of my own that was - with the greatest of respect to Brian - a little more extensive in purely Faerūn terms than the one he had compiled. So dates from that went into the greater mix including more than a few I'd made up myself, mostly in the Unapproachable East.

During that process, we took the opportunity to crystallise and get officially published some very important lore that had always been floating in the background, namely the lineage of Cormyr. I had compiled all the known ruling lineages at the time in a document and had also written up Amn from Steven's fragmentary notes. I added Impiltur, Narfell and Raumathar as well (in a big rush). Again, it was agreed that these worked well and broke up the "date wall".

After that, Kim Mohan - who was editor - scanned the compilation for entries that were outliers or without much in the way of follow up and in some cases asked for more entries. Which is why GHotR has a few Sossal events that I came up with.

The product was whipped into shape in less than a month and I was working fro 2am - 5am to gel with America in terms of e-mail communication times. There was no opportunity to analyse lore gaps, build on stuff that hadn't been properly fleshed out or sit down and think up "more/new lore" on the fly. The majority of "new lore" in the product was stuff that was already sitting on my hard drive. And the book contains errors that in the rush to final edit got missed.

I've always said that GHotR is a great product but could have been so much more. If we'd had a year to work on it, it would have been stellar. Such was not to be.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Mar 2018 01:45:30
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5082 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  01:46:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha

Any intel about the Black and Rogue Adherents?



Just a mention and a few bullet points re lore origins but nothing substantial.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30973 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  02:32:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Despite finding everything that Mr.Schend writes excellent, and I enjoyed his two Blackstaff novels, I just don't understand the depth (pun intended) of all this 'undersea' lore. A ton of effort that less than 1% of the gamers will ever use.



I really enjoyed the Sea of Fallen Stars, myself; it's one of my fave Realms books. Then again, there's just something about the undersea thing that really appeals to me. Heck, one of the Lords of Waterdeep that I wrote up spent some time in Serōs.

That said, I thought when the book came out that it was kind of an odd choice.

While I would disagree with the part about only 1% of gamers using it, I do think that covering a section of dry land that hadn't had eyes on it before would have sold more copies and would have been a more popular choice. Going under the sea seemed an odd foray for the company, and the way the sourcebook and that accompanying trilogy were kinda brushed to the side, later, tells me it didn't pan out the way they'd hoped.

So while I love the book, I do think it wasn't the most logical direction to go in. I'd love to see the whole area revisited, but even if we still had the 2E (or even 3E) publishing schedule, I think I'd be waiting a long time for that.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15633 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  08:31:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can see them merging the two SoFS books for a new 5e 'Inner Sea Guide' (jab at Paizo LOL) - gives us stuff about the Sea races (without all the minutia we won't ever use), and also stuff about the various islands (and NOT just the Pirate ones - there is a boatload {pun intended again}). Also rules about ships, piracy, some of the ports around the SAoFS and what they're trading in, etc. Enough 'meat' to run a nice sea-going campaign (without knowing what Dukar farted on what day and how it smelled).

Maybe even some updated rules on bombards (cannons), and perhaps even some gunnes (which could be 'fashionable among the pirates', but hasn't caught-on among the mainlanders). We need a really good update, in more ways than one. Perhaps even a small section on 'Sea religion' (I believe there was one in one of those two books). We won't really need all that history because its all been done before - the groundwork is there. We just need the update and some 5e mechanics to work with. Maybe some decent navy numbers as well (I believe the pirates one had some of that),and a 'secret port' for pirates that not too many have learned about ('Scarbala reborn'?), or even a an update on a known one, like Westgate (last I read, the Shou gangs were making moves to take over the place).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6913 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  13:35:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This raises something I had been wondering about HOW to do with Katashaka and have been floundering with. Basically, I don't want this "separation" we see in most other places between a surface world and a sea world. I'd like for it to be something where these two disparate groups actually do interact a lot more, possibly even visiting each other often. The kind of "good" cat/bird/flower people kingdom I was discussing previously in particular will have a reverence for the god from monster mythology known as "Water Lion", and I'd like them to deal with the islands off of western Katashaka, but also the civilizations UNDER the waves. One of the things we had discussed previously was the possibility of the flower people being able to create a plant symbiote that allows people to share a language via scent. What if breathing under the water were made amazingly simple as well via similar means provided by plant symbiotes? Might that actually bring these two cultures more into contact?


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30973 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  14:40:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What if breathing under the water were made amazingly simple as well via similar means provided by plant symbiotes? Might that actually bring these two cultures more into contact?





You could use something like gillyweed, from the Harry Potter books. Eat the plant, breathe water for a few hours.

Of course, there are also potions for the same thing, in D&D, and magic items.

To make those remain viable, I'd give gillyweed a shorter duration and a chance of a random side effect -- nausea, or something resembling intoxication, perhaps.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6913 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  22:18:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What if breathing under the water were made amazingly simple as well via similar means provided by plant symbiotes? Might that actually bring these two cultures more into contact?





You could use something like gillyweed, from the Harry Potter books. Eat the plant, breathe water for a few hours.

Of course, there are also potions for the same thing, in D&D, and magic items.

To make those remain viable, I'd give gillyweed a shorter duration and a chance of a random side effect -- nausea, or something resembling intoxication, perhaps.



That's a good idea. I do like the drawback aspect as well. I'm thinking something like headaches that affect concentration and fatigue, since those are the drawbacks listed when I look up too much oxygen in the blood.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
186 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  16:56:57  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myth Nantar gives everyone who live within it for a month gills.
Forgotten Realms wiki say the Dukars were orginally Elven High mages, from Cormanthor, and that a triton named Dukar founded the four orders.
If the Dukars were trained by High mages from Cormanthor... Some Dukar wizards could have made one wizard mythal or two in katashaka, as well.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15633 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  17:41:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure where it was from (it may have been from Pirates of Darkwater), but in some animated feature I recall that when they had to go underwater, they put some sort of creature on their face, similar to an Alien 'face-hugger', that allowed them to breath. I always thought that was a cool concept - some sort of crab-creature that can breath both, that can attach itself temporarily like a symbiote.

I like the idea that folks from Katashaka have taken a more 'organic' approach to things, but wouldn't want it all plant-based.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2412 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  20:54:19  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR Wiki is wrong about the Dukars. Of the four founders of the four orders, only one (Kupav) was a sea elf. The others were a triton, storm giant, and morkoth. Dukar, of course, was a triton. While there had probably been some migration of elves from the Cormanthor area prior to the dukars being founded c. -7100 DR, most of the migration would have come earlier, from the south, during the Crown Wars.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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