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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8286 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  12:22:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
DISCLAIMER: Not Canon

So, many of you may have seen my relatively recent attempts to create a pantheon for a little known group in Anchorome called the Metahel. My take on these Metahel is that they are another group of Northmen, like the ones that inhabit Ruathym and the North and the Moonshaes. However, they have their own pantheon, which I've tailored to look like a recast Norse Pantheon, but at the same time, almost like it contains gods from Faerun (with a couple that are purely Norse but with a spin on their name). I'm also deliberately making things vague. Anyway, I had a lot of fun with my redo of Thor as the leader of the pantheon and advancing things almost as many of the Norse stories have already happened... but maybe differently.

So, why this post? As much as I like Thor, I had never really looked into his daughter Thrud (another classic spelling of her name is Thudra)... because there's very little about her. She's unexciting. So, I decided to take the concept of her and say "what might she have become with time?" I figured his two sons are masters of physical might, and her name means "Power" or "Strength"... so I figured make her some kind of lesser goddess of magic. I also recently read Walter Simonson's Ragnarok comic and became enamored with the idea of Thor putting Odin's (Asagrimmr's) eye that he gave up at the Well of Mimir into his own eyesocket when he lost an eye... and I had this daughter be the one that retrieved the eye.


Anyway, I present this goddess to you, to see if you can help me improve the concept. I also present a slightly updated Thoros

Thoordra Thorosdottir, goddess of runes and truename magic, daughter of Thoros and Sifya – Thoordra is a dutiful daughter who serves to inspire those who seek to employ runecraft. She is depticted in art as a shapely red headed goddess of large but well-placed girth. It is said that it was she that recovered the eye of her grandfather, Asagrimmr, from an ancient place of power. She then delivered it to her father, Thoros, when he lost his own eye. It was also Thoordra who helped nail Thoros to the world ash when he sought to delve the mysteries of his father's eye to learn the mysteries of rune magic. Thoordra listened to the fevered meanderings of Thoros for sixteen days, all while protecting her father from the assaults of giant and demonkind. Between fighting, she tended to her father, bringing him mango juice and cleansing his wounds with water from Eldunna's Goldenheart Spring. She also made note of the many mystical markings which covered his body during these fevered dreams, markings which would change shape and/or come and go as time passed. As a result, she learned much of rune and truename magic. However, she sought more, and so her father and she did plot to steal more knowledge of runecraft from the dwarves. Thoordra did entreat a dwarven god of wisdom, whose name seems to vary, but whose ugliness was brought on by the great size of his egg shaped head. Thoordra proposed that she and this dwarven god should become betrothed to her, and met with him in “secret” to tryst with him and they did make vows to one another. When Thoros “learned” of this betrayal he claimed that the dwarven god of wisdom must prove his intellect if he wanted to claim a daughter as fine as his own. It is said that in his haste to prove his wisdom and thus gain her love, that the god revealed the secrets of dwarven runecraft, and thus proved himself a fool not worthy of Thoordra. He was thus slain and Thoordra absorbed much of his power, and it is whispered that his stone body floats in the astral to this day.


Thoros, Lord of Thunder and Lightning, Lord of the Bloodrage, Bringer of Rain, Stepfather of Yuellar, Father of the Thunder Twins and Thoordra - Much like his wife, Thoros' moods are reflected in his beard and hair color, changing from either blonde when he is acting nobly, to red when he is raging. He is seen to have lost his right eye, and he wears an eyepatch of blue dragon hide made from the wingskin torn from a great blue dragon named Raethghul whom he once fought. It is said however that beneath this patch lies the eye of his father, recovered from an ancient place of power after his father's disappearance, and those who claim to have seen it claim to have looked upon a whirling aura of stars, light, and darkness. He also lost his left arm in a fight with one of the great giant jarls of old, whose name seems to change with the telling. Thoros had this limb replaced with a magical arm of cold-forged black iron, which gives him great control of electricity and magnetism. He fights in his right hand with his famed everbleeding battle axe, Jarlsbluud, made of the bones of the first giant lord he ever killed and inlaid with carved deep green pieces of bloodstone flecked with red which are said to be organs of this giant lord. In his left hand Thoros uses his spear, Fangir, which is a piece of the world ash repeatedly lightning struck during a hurricane which threatened the tree when Thoros hung himself bleeding from it with spikes through his flesh for 16 days to uncover the power of runes. Its tip hardened by the resulting fires and engorged with the fury of the storm, Fangir is imbued with the powers of fire, wind, rain, thunder, and lightning. However, his favorite weapon is Mahljniir, a great double headed warhammer forged of the metal of a dead sun and smelted over the funeral pyre of his father, Asagrimmr, and whose second head is actually the fang of Kezris, left behind in his father's body when the great wolf killed him. The warhammer, Mahljniir, is capable of fighting on its own, and is said to possess the wit and wisdom of Asagrimmr. It also refuses to work for anyone which it does not deem worthy of its aid, though how it determines such worthiness seems to be conflicting depending on its mood. It is rumored that long ago, in return for his aid on a quest, Frethander blessed Thoros with such virility that when he impregnated his wife Sifya, it also awakened the seed in his former lover Yaernsacsa. Both Sifya and Yaernsacsa gave birth at the same time, and their children (Moedae and Magnaear) were twins. He is noted as having a chariot pulled by a pair of winged rams whose hooves spark and thunder as they pull him across the sky. Thoros is known to have many enemies, primarily amongst giantkind, but he is particularly known as well for having enmity with the demon lords Kostchtchie, Baphomet, and Orcus, as well as as another savage one eye god known to the Metahel people as Grumash.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8286 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  12:34:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, just because I was looking over lesser deities of Norse Mythology, and I was thinking about the "dead" goddess Murdane that Helm was supposedly in love with. I came across the norse goddess Snotra (some may recognize her from the TV series, The Almighty Johnsons). Snotra is a goddess of wisdom, but also of hospitality, court etiquette, service, etc... and it just seemed to fit Siamorphe... and so I said "hey, why not". Given that one of the things I've kind of been thinking about doing with the Metahel was have them move to small islands surrounding that small continent/large island east of Katashaka and find some OTHER Egyptian god-kings... I thought it could be an interesting play on things. How's this work for a concept?

BTW, part of the reason I'm doing this, is I think it could be fun to just make up something that focuses solely on these Metahel and how their interactions with the United Tharchs of Toril enabled them to expand over the last century. They may have also interacted with other areas of Toril (such as maybe Konigheim and/or Ulgarth) which may have also transferred to Abeir (and yep, I can already hear Markustay claiming it didn't go there )

Snoedramorphe, goddess of grace, wisdom, hospitality and the responsibilities of rulership – Snoedramorphe is a goddess who is a goddess of the court and rulers for the most part, though usually acting through the guidance of those closest to rulers, such as wives, consorts, and advisors. However, her focus is on teaching these rulers their roles as protectors of those under their care. She is also seen as a goddess of wisdom and teaching, and many of her followers are those who take on and teach both young men and women. Her followers help oversee parties, dinners, dancers, and other similar social gatherings and ensure that the rules of hospitality are not broken. They often help oversee rulers in contract negotiations as well, in the hopes that the initiatives pushed forward will serve those under their chieftains. She also teaches that many rulers are divinely guided to rule, some having such divinity in their own blood, for the gods have been known to bed with mortals from time to time, and thus crossing one's chieftain must be done with care to ensure one is not crossing against the purpose of the gods. Knocking down a chieftain to obtain personal power is frowned upon, but replacing a chieftain who does not properly serve his people may be seen as divinely guided. It is said that those individuals who served their rulers well in life, particularly females, are called upon to serve in Snoedramorphe's great hall in the afterlife. These individuals, known as the Murdannar, help prepare and/or oversee great feasts. Never a powerful deity, for many centuries, little was heard from Snoedramorphe, other than periodically individuals claiming to be blessed by her appearing amongst the populace (more often than not, these were the wives of rulers who achieved greatness). However, in the last two decades the priests of the Metahel Pantheon have claimed to begin to receive dreams from her once again.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2018 :  18:19:37  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About Northmen, you might be interested that the Rus (another group of Northmen), worshiped aparently Shaundakul, as stated in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Shaundakul (SHAWN-da-kul) the Rider of theWinds, was the god of travel and exploration in old Myth Drannor. His existence may date back to thetime of the Rus, forbears of the Rashemaar, or beyond.


This also suggested with the Windwalker artefact of the Rus, seeing how it shares the nane with priests of Shaundakul.

Shaundakul's name, appears to ba based on on one of Odin's names - "Sanngetall" - finder of truth or sooth - and Shaundakul resembles quite Odin in his guise as the wanderer.

While Odin's counterpart (Asagrimmr) is dead, his aspect, Shaundakul, could theoretically survive separatelly, and Asagrimmr's death, could be connected with Shaundakul's loss of power (going from an Intermediate Power to a Demigod, after the fall of Myth Drannor.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8286 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  01:35:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, that's interesting. I don't think I'd equate Shaundakul to Odin... but having him involved with the Rus and the northmen I do like. He could be his own deity specific ... or he could be a more traditional Slavic deity... for instance, Stribog, who is related to winds and wealth.

http://epika.org/house-of-mythology/19-stribog-god-of-winds


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  02:47:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I can definitelly see the similarities between Stribog and Shaundakul, but he just quite reminds me Odin, and wind is only part of his portfolio, which seems more conneted to travel - wind isn't exactly part of his portfolio, only windghosts, and it's outright ommited in the 3E version of his portfolio.
(To be clear, I'm aware Shaundakul is strongly connected to Wind, with his priesthood, and possible artefact being both named "Windwalker", his avatar being able to become a wind construct, and using Windghosts to communiacate - I jst discuss his portfolio here.)

Indeed, Shaundakul has even some chthonic aspects, having miners in his portfolio. Although again, it is part of his exploration/travel portfolio.

It's also notable the magic of the (implied Shaundakul related) Windwalker artefact, was atunned to Yggdrasil's Child, and Odin was conected to Yggdrasil, specifically his magic, similary how the Windwalker's artefact is connected to Yggdrasil's child. Shaundakul also resides in Ysgard...

It also notable George Krashos I think first gave the date of the Rus' arival in Rashemen (–105 DR), but the original version, was far more vague:
quote:

In centuries long past, a restless people known as the Rus swept over
much of Faerûn, raiding and pillaging the coastal lands. Some bands
of Rus took to the rivers and made their way inland, first raiding and
then settling. Before the great Anauroch Desert was formed, a river
flowed through the then-forested lands to the Moonsea. One small
group of Rus traveled through a chain of lakes and rivers as far as
Rashemen and settled there. Their descendants and echoes of their
culture and their magic can still be found in the land of Rashemen.



quote:
The magic of Rashemen's Witches, cultural descendants of the
Rus, is different from the magic known in the western Realms. They
must learn spells, as do other wizards, but they also tap into other
forms of power. One of these is place magic. Witches venerate sites of
natural power and revere the spirits who dwell there. Many of their
spells are drawn from these sites.


It is possible that the Northmen took Shaundakul from the the Netherese, or related barbarians (ie Rengarth), as he is a figure in those folklore - among the Marsh Drovers of the Farsea Marshes (one of the last pure strains of Netherese), he and Selune are thought to be the parents of Bright Nydra, and he was among the Gods of the of the Rengarth barbarians, who became the first Goliath, as detaled by Erik Scott de Bie and Tom Costa (Which was essentially canonized by Brian R. James and Matt James "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon #170)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647

quote:
Religion: Kavaki is an aspect of Lathander that focuses on the youth, vitality, self-perfection, and above all athletics portions of the Morninglord’s portfolio, and whose clerics favor the Protection and Strength domains. The other gods of the goliaths were Lathander’s allies at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, but have since changed. Kuliak the Dead Goddess was originally an aspect of Eldath (who would not supply Lathander and his allies with fresh water as they prepared for battle on principle), but has since been supplanted by first Jergal (who was nothing more than an interloper obeying the edicts of Myrkul) and now Kelemvor (who has taken a true interest in the goliaths and seeks to redeem Kuliak’s faith, especially among goliath exiles who favor the Fate and Travel domains). Manethek the Wise Hunter is an aspect of Gwaeron Windstrom (sent by Mielikki to assist Lathander and whose clerics favor the Animal and Knowledge domains). Naki-Uthal, the Brave Climber is an aspect of Shaundakul (whose clergy favor the Air and Travel domains), who was a close ally of the Morninglord prior to the Dawn Cataclysm, but was shown an image of Lathander’s folly by Selune and rejected the failed plans that led to the demise of most of his faithful in Myth Drannor. Theleya the Fertile One is an aspect of Chauntea (whose clergy favor the Plant and Renewal domains). Finally, Vanua the Harbringer of Woe was a masculine aspect of Tyche whose name was seized by Talos when she fell—his clergy favor the Destruction and Fire domains. Goliath exiles often refer to these deities by their “human names,” so as not to confuse the listener, but Gol-kaa holds to the traditional names.


It may also interest you Races of Faerun also mentions Northmen had visible interractions with Ostrian giants, learning the Rune magic (connected to the Windwalker Amulet) from the giats of Ostoria.

This makes me think if Thoros coldn't be connected to Stronmaus:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Stronmaus

As Stronmaus pretty much is also visibly based on Thor, up to having a Hammer, and Stronmaus also essentially leads the pantheon, when his father Annam (who also is extremelly Odin-like, up to having the tile Allfather).

Bizarelly though, Lathander in his guise as Kavaki, also reminds me of Stronmaus, and Stronmaus is not only connected to weather, but also the sun in his portfolio...

Another interesting thing is, Lathander was aparently active in the region of Netheril, co-curently with Amaunator, and seemed to been worshipped by the Rengarth and Angardt peoples instead of him, to the point Lathander, as Kavaki, was the leader of the Rangarth and Goliath pantheon...

[EDIT]

Shaundakul, seeing he was connected among Rengarth with mountains, and he is connected to Mines, could also be seen as equivalent to Rubezahl/Karkonos, among Slavic spirits/gods:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCbezahl
http://www.heathenhof.com/rubezahl/

Rubezahl/Karkonos is also the archetypal wanderer, and noted as having similarities to Odin...

Edited by - Baltas on 21 Mar 2018 04:31:10
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  05:28:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shaundakul could possibly be a vestige of the original Odin, that found worshipers who now portray him differently based on only a small part of his portfolio (so at this point, it IS essentially a different god now).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8286 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  12:27:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, I can definitelly see the similarities between Stribog and Shaundakul, but he just quite reminds me Odin, and wind is only part of his portfolio, which seems more conneted to travel - wind isn't exactly part of his portfolio, only windghosts, and it's outright ommited in the 3E version of his portfolio.
(To be clear, I'm aware Shaundakul is strongly connected to Wind, with his priesthood, and possible artefact being both named "Windwalker", his avatar being able to become a wind construct, and using Windghosts to communiacate - I jst discuss his portfolio here.)

Indeed, Shaundakul has even some chthonic aspects, having miners in his portfolio. Although again, it is part of his exploration/travel portfolio.

It's also notable the magic of the (implied Shaundakul related) Windwalker artefact, was atunned to Yggdrasil's Child, and Odin was conected to Yggdrasil, specifically his magic, similary how the Windwalker's artefact is connected to Yggdrasil's child. Shaundakul also resides in Ysgard...

It also notable George Krashos I think first gave the date of the Rus' arival in Rashemen (–105 DR), but the original version, was far more vague:
quote:

In centuries long past, a restless people known as the Rus swept over
much of Faerûn, raiding and pillaging the coastal lands. Some bands
of Rus took to the rivers and made their way inland, first raiding and
then settling. Before the great Anauroch Desert was formed, a river
flowed through the then-forested lands to the Moonsea. One small
group of Rus traveled through a chain of lakes and rivers as far as
Rashemen and settled there. Their descendants and echoes of their
culture and their magic can still be found in the land of Rashemen.



quote:
The magic of Rashemen's Witches, cultural descendants of the
Rus, is different from the magic known in the western Realms. They
must learn spells, as do other wizards, but they also tap into other
forms of power. One of these is place magic. Witches venerate sites of
natural power and revere the spirits who dwell there. Many of their
spells are drawn from these sites.


It is possible that the Northmen took Shaundakul from the the Netherese, or related barbarians (ie Rengarth), as he is a figure in those folklore - among the Marsh Drovers of the Farsea Marshes (one of the last pure strains of Netherese), he and Selune are thought to be the parents of Bright Nydra, and he was among the Gods of the of the Rengarth barbarians, who became the first Goliath, as detaled by Erik Scott de Bie and Tom Costa (Which was essentially canonized by Brian R. James and Matt James "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon #170)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647

quote:
Religion: Kavaki is an aspect of Lathander that focuses on the youth, vitality, self-perfection, and above all athletics portions of the Morninglord’s portfolio, and whose clerics favor the Protection and Strength domains. The other gods of the goliaths were Lathander’s allies at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, but have since changed. Kuliak the Dead Goddess was originally an aspect of Eldath (who would not supply Lathander and his allies with fresh water as they prepared for battle on principle), but has since been supplanted by first Jergal (who was nothing more than an interloper obeying the edicts of Myrkul) and now Kelemvor (who has taken a true interest in the goliaths and seeks to redeem Kuliak’s faith, especially among goliath exiles who favor the Fate and Travel domains). Manethek the Wise Hunter is an aspect of Gwaeron Windstrom (sent by Mielikki to assist Lathander and whose clerics favor the Animal and Knowledge domains). Naki-Uthal, the Brave Climber is an aspect of Shaundakul (whose clergy favor the Air and Travel domains), who was a close ally of the Morninglord prior to the Dawn Cataclysm, but was shown an image of Lathander’s folly by Selune and rejected the failed plans that led to the demise of most of his faithful in Myth Drannor. Theleya the Fertile One is an aspect of Chauntea (whose clergy favor the Plant and Renewal domains). Finally, Vanua the Harbringer of Woe was a masculine aspect of Tyche whose name was seized by Talos when she fell—his clergy favor the Destruction and Fire domains. Goliath exiles often refer to these deities by their “human names,” so as not to confuse the listener, but Gol-kaa holds to the traditional names.


It may also interest you Races of Faerun also mentions Northmen had visible interractions with Ostrian giants, learning the Rune magic (connected to the Windwalker Amulet) from the giats of Ostoria.

This makes me think if Thoros coldn't be connected to Stronmaus:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Stronmaus

As Stronmaus pretty much is also visibly based on Thor, up to having a Hammer, and Stronmaus also essentially leads the pantheon, when his father Annam (who also is extremelly Odin-like, up to having the tile Allfather).

Bizarelly though, Lathander in his guise as Kavaki, also reminds me of Stronmaus, and Stronmaus is not only connected to weather, but also the sun in his portfolio...

Another interesting thing is, Lathander was aparently active in the region of Netheril, co-curently with Amaunator, and seemed to been worshipped by the Rengarth and Angardt peoples instead of him, to the point Lathander, as Kavaki, was the leader of the Rangarth and Goliath pantheon...

[EDIT]

Shaundakul, seeing he was connected among Rengarth with mountains, and he is connected to Mines, could also be seen as equivalent to Rubezahl/Karkonos, among Slavic spirits/gods:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCbezahl
http://www.heathenhof.com/rubezahl/

Rubezahl/Karkonos is also the archetypal wanderer, and noted as having similarities to Odin...



Yeah, you hit on something there with Stronmaus and my Thoros/Thor that I'd noticed, and Markustay has long been a proponent of the giant pantheon and the Norse pantheon being the same. At a surface level, they do look a lot alike. However, I specifically don't want Annam and his giant pantheon to be the "Norse Pantheon" in a new form, mainly because they were so "anti-giant". It could however easily fit another similar form... the Slavic Pantheon possibly... as well, what with Perun as Stronmaus, Chernobog as Memnor, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  16:36:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even the scholars are not sure who or how many 'Aesir' are actually Jotuns/Giants. They seem to mix freely with them - something you DON'T see the Olympians doing with the Titans. Since Odin himself was born to giants, most scholars agree that Odin must also be a giant. The Aesir are apparently an 'offshoot' of the giantish pantheon (as I've said elsewhere, I equate Odin's father Bor with Annam (Annam himself possibly being an ascended Empyreal {cosmic giant}, and thus the confusion as to whether he is an Estelar or primordial {he was neither... but related to both}).

So Odin started out as Woten, and didn't become 'Odin' and inherit the title of 'All father' until after Annam faded into the background (at least, in most human religions, although he's faded in the giantish mythos as well). Moradin is also a 'child' of Annam (who was 'shaped' by Ptah), because he, too, was gifted the Runes from him. Although he is also sometimes called 'All father', the dwarves tend to use 'High Father' instead (and likewise, Norse sometimes use 'High father' for Odin). The unnamed Dwarven High God (mentioned in Complete Dwarves) as being 'higher up' than even Moradin) thus becomes Annam... and isn't ever named by Dwarves for obvious reasons.

I suppose if you wanted to stretch things a bit more, perhaps Moradin and Thrym are Vili and Vé - Odins only known siblings. Although in my own cosmology it might be more fun to spin one of them as a draconic power (because I think those three groups are DEEPLY interconnected - Giants, dwarves, and Dragons). And thus, each in turn, turns from their 'giantish' roots. So if Vili is Moradin's original name, maybe Vé is Asgorath's original name (and thus further connecting him to the 'shaping of the world' in the Beginning). Of course, this now puts Annam into an even more 'glorified' position in the hierarchy, but I think maybe he should be - he is 'faded' now, so it doesn't really pset anything. Perhaps Annam was the FIRST Jotun (cosmic Giants), which usually places any being of any race in an 'exalted' position above that race.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  19:06:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking on that last part just a little bit further, Asgorath is really an aspect of Io, so if we say Annam = Io (not loving it but its doable), then an 'asect' at that level of power would be pretty-much the same as a 'offspring' (both are 'created beings' by another).

So, if we follow this (new) logic-path, Woten/Odin, Moradin/Vili, and Asgorath/Vé are all aspects of Io/Annam/Bor. Like I said, this is a brand new train of thought for me, and it probably upsets a lot of other apple-carts within my proto-Cosmology. First off, I think I made Io a Supernal, so now he's been downgraded, while Annam has been upgraded. Oh, and the whole story of Annam, Othea, and Ulutiu happened on the First World, but that part I've been saying for awhile now. The 'core lands' (central region where the gods hung-out) of that First World is what eventually became Toril, so that it all makes sense within the framework of our FR lore. Othea was another Emperyean (Celestial Titan), and also known as Bestia. Ulutiu was a primal spirit, most of whom joined/became the Fey pantheon later (so related to, but not the same as, the Seldarine). Perhaps Ulutiu is also one of the two snow elf deities (Rellavar Danuvien)? And thus, 'the Frost Sprite King'? His promised, future bride when nutso and he consoled himself by cuckolding other gods?

EDIT:
And going a bit further, he may also be Lugh 'of the long spear' (his 'spear' was said to be able to grow to any size). We may have hit upon why he was such a 'lady's man'.

And Lugh was also a member of the Tautha DeDanann, so very much part of the fey/Elven pantheon, as far as I am concerned. Lugh/Ulutiu - there is a bit of phoenetic similarity there.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2018 19:16:51
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  21:02:13  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-sleyvas

Well, yes Norse and Slavs, had visible contact, and some of the Vikings, were actually Slavic, having joined the Norse on piracy XD:
https://slaviablog.wordpress.com/2014/06/08/slavic-vikings/

With Ukko, some think he is in actuality Perkunas (via Perkele), the Baltic cognate to Perun, as even written on wikipedia:
quote:
Some researchers believe that Ilmarinen, another Finnic sky god, is the origin of Ukko,[6][7] while some others believe that Ukko's original name was Baltic Perkele.


In general, there wasan overlap between he religion of Finns, and the Balts and Slavs - ie the Finno-Ugric tribes of the Vogul, who still have the divinity Moksha, conected to Mokosh.

Veles, is atually also quite connected to Odin - indeed, Veles closelly related Baltic cognate, Velnias, also has only one eye, and is connected to ravens.

"Chernobog", might be less of a God, but rather a title - "The Black God" (of the Netherworld) - a tile, most often probably atributed to Veles, while "Belbog" (The White God), could be several entities - Perun, Svarog, Svarozic or Dadzbog. Although confusingly, Dadzbog, also sometimes took the role of Chernobog, even though he was among the most closelly connected to the title/name of Belbog...

Curiously, Baldur/Baldr, is closelly connected with the tradition of Belbog, as also noted even on wikipedia:

quote:
Jacob Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology (ch. 11) identifies Old Norse Baldr with the Old High German Baldere (2nd Merseburg Charm, Thuringia), Palter (theonym, Bavaria), Paltar (personal name) and with Old English bealdor, baldor "lord, prince, king" (used always with a genitive plural, as in gumena baldor "lord of men", wigena baldor "lord of warriors", et cetera). Old Norse shows this usage of the word as an honorific in a few cases, as in baldur î brynju (Sæm. 272b) and herbaldr (Sæm. 218b), both epithets of heroes in general.

Grimm traces the etymology of the name to *balþaz, whence Gothic balþs, Old English bald, Old High German pald, all meaning "bold, brave".[1]

But the interpretation of Baldr as "the brave god" may be secondary. Baltic (cf. Lithuanian baltas, Latvian balts) has a word meaning "the white, the good", and Grimm speculates that the name may originate as a Baltic loan into Proto-Germanic. In continental Saxon and Anglo-Saxon tradition, the son of Woden is called not Bealdor but Baldag (Saxon) and Bældæg, Beldeg (Anglo-Saxon), which shows association with "day", possibly with Day personified as a deity. This, as Grimm points out, would agree with the meaning "shining one, white one, a god" derived from the meaning of Baltic baltas, further adducing Slavic Belobog and German Berhta.[2]

Grimm's etymology is endorsed by modern research. According to Rudolf Simek, the original name for Baldr must be understood as 'shining day


(And ye, that is my nick's source )

Curiously, Veles and Perun, were enemies, or at least rivals. And seeing Veles akso took the form of Zmey - the three headed, winged dragon - Marvel comics modern Cul (lost brother of Odin, and Allfather before him, before Odin imprissoned him, and excluded him from the Ragnarock cycle), seems to be Norse take on Veles, being a dark mirror of Odin, who also turn into the great Dragon (with Cul just being known as "The Serpent"), and it being revealed that it's actually Cul with wich Thor is to mutaly kill himself, with the Midgard Serpent just taking that role in Cul's absence from the Ragnarok cycle.

This also connects us back to Memnor - who is sometimes described as Annam brother, or son, tying him to Veles, and Marvel comic's Cul...And neatly ties to Chernabog being Memnor...

Veles also has paralells wit Loki, but some think Loki started out as an aspect of Odin...

With the Norse Gods, the issue is, they can fragment into aspects - a lot even, with Loki being presented in one story, as two opposed beings (Asa-Loki and Uthgard-Loki), despite others identifying Uthgard-Loki, as the same as Uthgard-Loki, as I specified before in the "Jhaamdath Pantheon and 'all things cosmic'" thread:
quote:
The most known example, is that of there appearing of Uthgard-Loki, who seems to pretty much be Loki (up to being a tricksters), but is a separate character from Loki in Gylfaginning, but in Gesta Danorum, the name Uthgard-Loki appears to be describing Loki bound after his murder of Baldr.



But changing the topic a bit, Aerdie Fenya, could be reworked as a Freyja figure. Aerdrie Faenya's very name, seems to be call back to Freyja - "Fenya", being directly a corruption of Freyja, and Aerdie, being a corruption of Erda/Jord, who often is thought to be the mother of Freyja (ie the same as Nerthus). So Aerdie Fenya, could be in reverse order reverse order, basically a version of "Freyja Erdadottir" - Freya, Daughter of Erda. Aerdrie Faenya, even sonce earliest lore, spends half of her time in Ysgard, and has a domain there. Freyja, also since irst edition, has a Falcon as a symbol. So I think there is a deliberate connection...But one could alternatelly say Angharradh is the true Freyja, having aspects of Hanali Celanil, Sehanine Moonbow, who also fit Freyja.

- Markustay
I like the story with Woten/Odin, Moradin/Vili, and Asgorath/Vé being all aspects of Io/Annam/Bor. But as I wrote before in "Jhaamdath Pantheon and 'all things cosmic' ", I think in the original myth at least Vili, or Vee is Loki:

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas



Either Vili and Ve, is possibly another incarnation of Loki - in one myth it's Odin, Vili, and Vee who animate the first humans, but in another, it's Odin, Heonir and Lodur, with Lodur quite possibly being a form of Loki's name.

Some sources have also described Loki as Odin't birth brother, like the name of Loki's birth brother - Helblindi - is a a heti (name) of Odin. Loki and Helbindi/Odin, also have in that account a third brother - Byleistr - being even more similar to the story of Odin, Vili and Ve...



Although Loki has many aspects in the Multiverse to, even (arguably) three present o Faerun - Valigan the Thirborn (being even named after Loki's son Vali); Erevan Ilesere (a trickster, and like Loki is the the mother of Slepnir, Erevan Ilesere is the mother of Eachthighern); and Memnor (who is arguably a particulary malicious version of Loki).

With Lugh though, many reall life researchers think, Lught inspired the Germanic Odin - and that specificaly, Lught fragmented to Odin/Wotan and Loki...but Loki has a foot in the Fey pantheon, and Seldarine, as Erevan Ilesere...

[EDIT]

To be clear, with Aerdrie Faenya, I meant she could be worshipped among the Metahel in a "Norse" aspect, as part of teir pantheon, as an equivalent of Freyja, with who she has connections.

[EDIT2]

For other, further connections, Umberlee, quite resembles Ran, the wife/lover of Aegir:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1n

Especially that Ran was a vicious goddess, who delibatery pulled sailors under the sea. I mean, it's very similar how both Ran, and Umberlee love to drown people...

Although alternatelly, Umberlee coud be one of Aegir's and Ran's 9 daughters - also the mothers of Heimdall (Helm)...

It also helps Umberlee allready is worshipped by the Northmen...

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Mar 2018 03:25:22
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  03:50:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, I had deliberately been leaving out an alternate Freyja because the whole brother/sister thing with Frey (whom I've named Frethander), plus I was deliberately leaving out their father Njord as well. However, that's an interesting idea of having a possible elven interloper who "may have" subsumed Freyja's position after her death (and I like the idea of naming her Frenya). That would put the rest of the "pantheon" as follows (I'm noting I'm leaving out Balder, Bragi, Njord, Frigga, Forseti (but he seems duplicate if Tyr is justice), and Vidar).

Hmmmm, speaking of Vidar though.... ok, he's weird because he's a god with a big shoe that he puts in Fenris' mouth after Odin died and then he kills Fenris, but he's also known as "the silent god". One of the things I've kind of been building in this pantheon is the idea of a lot of these gods having given up or lost something (Hemdahl gives up an ear to hear better, Thoros loses both and arm and an eye, Anachtar loses a hand, etc...). What if Vidar gives up his voice for some reason?



Metahel Pantheon
The Metahel Pantheon, to the people of earth, would appear to be somewhat of a mirror of the Norse Pantheon, but missing Odin and several other deities. The details are slightly changed, as are the names. Since these deities are not detailed in some other product for reference, I present below some sample ideas for the deities in this pantheon. This pantheon has especially garnered the attention of the Mulan people who have worked with the Metahel, as many Mulans believe these are in fact Faerunian deities under another name. The truth behind this mystery is left to the DM's control.

Sifya, the War Mother, goddess of birth and breeding of livestock and horses, goddess of excellence and skill in battle, Mother of Moedae, Thoordra, and Yuellar - this goddess' mood varies and is represented as a change in her hair color (when she is ready for battle, her hair is usually red, when she is in her motherly aspect, it is golden. She is also depicted with black or brown hair when being portrayed as blessing the birth of young livestock). She is the mother of Yuellar by a god whose name is lost to history and she birthed Moedae, one of the two Thunder Twins.

Thoros, Lord of Thunder and Lightning, Lord of the Bloodrage, Bringer of Rain, Stepfather of Yuellar, Father of the Thunder Twins and Thoordra - Much like his wife, Thoros' moods are reflected in his beard and hair color, changing from either blonde when he is acting nobly, to red when he is raging. He is seen to have lost his right eye, and he wears an eyepatch of blue dragon hide made from the wingskin torn from a great blue dragon named Raethghul whom he once fought. It is said however that beneath this patch lies the eye of his father, recovered from an ancient place of power after his father's disappearance, and those who claim to have seen it claim to have looked upon a whirling aura of stars, light, and darkness. He also lost his left arm in a fight with one of the great giant jarls of old, whose name seems to change with the telling. Thoros had this limb replaced with a magical arm of cold-forged black iron, which gives him great control of electricity and magnetism. He fights in his right hand with his famed everbleeding battle axe, Jarlsbluud, made of the bones of the first giant lord he ever killed and inlaid with carved deep green pieces of bloodstone flecked with red which are said to be organs of this giant lord. In his left hand Thoros uses his spear, Fangir, which is a piece of the world ash repeatedly lightning struck during a hurricane which threatened the tree when Thoros hung himself bleeding from it with spikes through his flesh for 16 days to uncover the power of runes. Its tip hardened by the resulting fires and engorged with the fury of the storm, Fangir is imbued with the powers of fire, wind, rain, thunder, and lightning. However, his favorite weapon is Mahljniir, a great double headed warhammer forged of the metal of a dead sun and smelted over the funeral pyre of his father, Asagrimmr, and whose second head is actually the fang of Kezris, left behind in his father's body when the great wolf killed him. The warhammer, Mahljniir, is capable of fighting on its own, and is said to possess the wit and wisdom of Asagrimmr. It also refuses to work for anyone which it does not deem worthy of its aid, though how it determines such worthiness seems to be conflicting depending on its mood. It is rumored that long ago, in return for his aid on a quest, Frethander blessed Thoros with such virility that when he impregnated his wife Sifya, it also awakened the seed in his former lover Yaernsacsa. Both Sifya and Yaernsacsa gave birth at the same time, and their children (Moedae and Magnaear) were twins. He is noted as having a chariot pulled by a pair of winged rams whose hooves spark and thunder as they pull him across the sky. Thoros is known to have many enemies, primarily amongst giantkind, but he is particularly known as well for having enmity with the demon lords Kostchtchie, Baphomet, and Orcus, as well as as another savage one eye god known to the Metahel people as Grumash.

Eldunna, Keeper of the Golden Mangos, Guardian of the Goldenheart Spring, Goddess of Young Love - This golden haired goddess is a goddess of rivers, springs, and harvesting fruits and grains. She is also known as a matchmaker who often helps young lovers find one another. She is served by the spirits of those women who died in service to love, known as the Sjofnnar, who are said to fly upon pegasi searching the world for men whose hearts need to be lightened by love before they turn to darker passions. Firing their arrows of love from the safety of invisibility, they seek to turn these men towards individuals who will create a strong union.

Frethander, Lord of Spring Plantings, Lord of Beauty and Flowers, Keeper of the Sun Blade and Charioteer of the Sun - This golden haired god is noted as being exceptionally handsome. He blesses men with virility, blesses the seeding of fields, and is often portrayed with marigolds in his hair. He has a job to pulling the sun across the sky each day with his flaming chariot pulled by a golden bristled boar, and as a result, many use the boar as a symbol of this god. It is said that he fights with the rune-scribed antlers torn from the head of a demon lord long ago, a fight which both are said to have survived. It is also said that in a rather strange twist, he fell in love with a giant goddess by the name of Eauhlannis, and that he sacrificed an item of great power to gain her hand in marriage.

Hemdahl, Guardian of the Rainbow Staircase, He of the All-Seeing Eye, Defender of the Metahel - This god is the progeny of Yaernsacsa by an unnamed father. He is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros and both half-brother and Uncle to Moedae. It is said that Hemdahl did sacrifice one of his ears for the ability to hear all that occurs, and thus Hemdahl cannot be surprised. Many have equated this god to the god Helm, who guarded the celestial stairway during the time of troubles, and some Payit know him as Hunab-Kuum.

Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf - This god is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros. He seeks to intermediate disputes between the gods, and his followers often serve similar roles within the Metahel clans. However, when resolution cannot be achieved, the blood oath is taken in Anachtar's name, resulting in feuds that have been known to decimate clans. This noble god is noted as having a single hand because of his own selflessness, though its also noted that he's had a mechanical hand constructed by dwarves to take its place. The story is that he lost it in chaining Kezris, the Spirit-Wolf. This has caused a log of friction between himself and Valigor, for he blames the trickster god for bringing the great wolf into the world.

Valigor the Runtborn Giant, Lord of Chaos, Trickster of the Gods, Father of Monsters and Magical Beasts - This trickster god was found by the gods in a giant's cradle after a war between the gods and giants. He was obviously a runt amongst giants, and the Metahel gods decided to adopt him and raise him as one of their own. His antics fill many stories amongst the Metahel, usually involving Thoros having to fight some giant in the end. He is also a shapechanging god, and he himself is rumored to have given birth to the race of noble flying horses known as Asperii when he shapechanged into a giant mare to help the gods trick a lying giant into building their home realm for free. However, he is also rumored to have birthed numerous monsters upon a shape changing giantess known as Haagenis, including Chupocol the Great Spider, Kezris the Spirit Wolf that will swallow the moon, and Jormungis the Great Sea Serpent.

Yaernsacsa, Wave Maiden of the Sea, Mother of Hemdahl, Lover of Thoros, Mother of Magnaear - This aloof deity of the sea is known for her capricious nature. The Metahel usually praise her for the sea's bounty or before a sea voyage of some danger. Before Thoros met and married Sifya, he had loved a giantess by the name of Yaernsacsa. However, she would never produce a son for him, no matter how many times he seeded her. Eventually, Thoros met and married Sifya, and as a reward for his aid, Fraeyollo did awaken his seed in Sifya. To everyone's great surprise, this act did also awaken his seed within Yaernsacsa as well, and later she gave birth to one of the Thunder Twins.

Yuellar, Huntsman of the Gods, Son of Sifya and Stepson of Thoros - This god is known for his superb hunting and tracking skills, as well as his athletic prowess in sports. He rides upon a great, giant antlered buck and is served by a number of hunting wolves.

Moedae, Lord of Bravery and Mounted Combat, one of the Thunder Twins - This god rides a silver-furred Asperii that can also change into a Hippocampus when it goes beneath the waves. Magnaear is seen as a restless god and he rides across the heavens seeking out new challenges to test himself against. He is the son of Sifya and Thoros.

Magnaear, Lord of Strength, one of the Thunder Twins – Magnaer is noted as being extremely strong and hairy. This god is noted as having a female bear companion, Balanis, who periodically changes shape into that of a woman. It is rumored that her ability to change shape was a gift bestowed by Magnaer, and he did thereby accept the curse that he himself must periodically wander the world as a bear himself. Other stories say that Magnaear received Balanis as a bride-price for a service performed for another deity known as Father Bear or Balador, having come to Balador's aid when he was attacked by a great werewolf named Daragor. It is said in that story that Magnaear was bitten by Daragor and that Balador changed Magnaear's curse by mixing his blood with that of Balanis during their marriage ceremony. There are stories that these two did birth a race of intelligent bear folk, and nearly anytime the two of them are seen they are followed by three young, inquisitive bear cubs. Unlike his aggressive brother, Moedae, Magnaear is known for simply wanting to relax and eat, but he is always called out by foolish giants and other creatures who seek to best him in combat. He is the son of Yaernsacsa and Thoros.

Snoedramorphe, goddess of grace, wisdom, hospitality and the responsibilities of rulership – Snoedramorphe is a goddess who is a goddess of the court and rulers for the most part, though usually acting through the guidance of those closest to rulers, such as wives, consorts, and advisors. However, her focus is on teaching these rulers their roles as protectors of those under their care. She is also seen as a goddess of wisdom and teaching, and many of her followers are those who take on and teach both young men and women. Her followers help oversee parties, dinners, dancers, and other similar social gatherings and ensure that the rules of hospitality are not broken. They often help oversee rulers in contract negotiations as well, in the hopes that the initiatives pushed forward will serve those under their chieftains. She also teaches that many rulers are divinely guided to rule, some having such divinity in their own blood, for the gods have been known to bed with mortals from time to time, and thus crossing one's chieftain must be done with care to ensure one is not crossing against the purpose of the gods. Knocking down a chieftain to obtain personal power is frowned upon, but replacing a chieftain who does not properly serve his people may be seen as divinely guided. It is said that those individuals who served their rulers well in life, particularly females, are called upon to serve in Snoedramorphe's great hall in the afterlife. These individuals, known as the Murdannar, help prepare and/or oversee great feasts. Never a powerful deity, for many centuries, little was heard from Snoedramorphe, other than periodically individuals claiming to be blessed by her appearing amongst the populace (more often than not, these were the wives of rulers who achieved greatness). However, in the last two decades the priests of the Metahel Pantheon have claimed to begin to receive dreams from her once again.

Thoordra Thorosdottir, goddess of runes and truename magic, daughter of Thoros and Sifya – Thoordra is a dutiful daughter who serves to inspire those who seek to employ runecraft. She is depticted in art as a shapely red headed goddess of large but well-placed girth. It is said that it was she that recovered the eye of her grandfather, Asagrimmr, from an ancient place of power. She then delivered it to her father, Thoros, when he lost his own eye. It was also Thoordra who helped nail Thoros to the world ash when he sought to delve the mysteries of his father's eye to learn the mysteries of rune magic. Thoordra listened to the fevered meanderings of Thoros for sixteen days, all while protecting her father from the assaults of giant and demonkind. Between fighting, she tended to her father, bringing him mango juice and cleansing his wounds with water from Eldunna's Goldenheart Spring. She also made note of the many mystical markings which covered his body during these fevered dreams, markings which would change shape and/or come and go as time passed. As a result, she learned much of rune and truename magic. However, she sought more, and so her father and she did plot to steal more knowledge of runecraft from the dwarves. Thoordra did entreat a dwarven god of wisdom, whose name seems to vary, but whose ugliness was brought on by the great size of his egg shaped head. Thoordra proposed that she and this dwarven god should become betrothed to her, and met with him in “secret” to tryst with him and they did make vows to one another. When Thoros “learned” of this betrayal he claimed that the dwarven god of wisdom must prove his intellect if he wanted to claim a daughter as fine as his own. It is said that in his haste to prove his wisdom and thus gain her love, that the god revealed the secrets of dwarven runecraft, and thus proved himself a fool not worthy of Thoordra. He was thus slain and Thoordra absorbed much of his power, and it is whispered that his stone body floats in the astral to this day.

Surtr - This is without a doubt, the same deity as the god of fire giants, but during the time in Abeir, he was silent. He is an enemy of the Metahel gods.

Thrym - This is without a doubt, the same deity as the god of frost giants, but during the time in Abeir, he was silent. He is an enemy of the Metahel gods.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5587 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  04:20:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


It also notable George Krashos I think first gave the date of the Rus' arival in Rashemen (–105 DR), but the original version, was far more vague:
quote:

In centuries long past, a restless people known as the Rus swept over
much of Faerûn, raiding and pillaging the coastal lands. Some bands
of Rus took to the rivers and made their way inland, first raiding and
then settling. Before the great Anauroch Desert was formed, a river
flowed through the then-forested lands to the Moonsea. One small
group of Rus traveled through a chain of lakes and rivers as far as
Rashemen and settled there. Their descendants and echoes of their
culture and their magic can still be found in the land of Rashemen.






I always wondered where this snippet came from. Anyone got an idea? Novel or sourcebook? The former I expect.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  05:12:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
- George Krashos

It's from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, but I think it's based on the lore first presented in the Daughter of the Drow novel.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Shaundakul could possibly be a vestige of the original Odin, that found worshipers who now portray him differently based on only a small part of his portfolio (so at this point, it IS essentially a different god now).



Yeah, that was my take. But to be clear, my take would be that rather Shaundakul wasn't known in Anchoromem, as he survived as a (changed) Aspect/revived Vestige of Odin only in Faerun.

- sleyvas

Awesome pantheon, and interesting you seemingly connected Lathander and Freyr. It's a quite possible connection, although I also connected Lathander with Balder, with the Rengarth/Goliath incarnation of Lathander as Kavaki being in part Balder as the leader of Norse Gods post Ragnarok, if doubling as Belbog.

Although Lathander, including his Kavaki aspect (maybe especially), also resembles Freyr - some think when Freyr fought with antlers, those were his own antlers on/from his head - this conects to Kavaki having a head of a Ram. Freyr also was though to have been of the Vanir, which translated to his role as the King of Alfheim - especially that Skirnismal, has Freyr sitting in Odin's throne, looked over all the worlds - this is a quite enigmatic scene, and some think it alludes to Freyr's original role as the Ruler of Vanir. And in the Ynglinga saga, Freyr ultimatelly becomes the ruler after Odn's and Njordr's deaths.

Freyr also is similar to the Slavic God Yarilo/Gerovit/Jarovit/Yarovit (god of war, vegetation, fertility (including sexual fertility) and spring), who is also at times connected to Svetovid, and as Yarovit (and possibly Sventovid) was seen as the chief god.

(As well as his name is similar to Freyr's name Yngve)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  18:16:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think VGtATM predated Elmninster's Daughter, so I think that very well could be the original source.

@Baltas - I won't do the quotey-thing because that would be insanely hard considering, so I will just address a few points...

Loki could possibly be Ve; as you've pointed out, the Norse have multiple names, and if he underwent some sort of 'lessening', he may be known as Loki under that lesser aspect. Considering some of the MAJOR BBG's he's created, that would actually make a LOT of sense - pushing him back into the 'primal gods' (First Gods) tier. Also, if we picture at least one aspect of him looking like the Marvel Comics version, those big-arse horns on his helmet could be a remnant of his Asgorath aspect (and he did 'father' one of THE most powerful dragons in the universe - the Midgard Serpent... although for sanity's sake and the sake of keeping things coherent in D&D, I do not equate that with the World Serpent, who should have been Io. Thus, Asgorath is the child of Io, as it should be (The Midgard serpent being just a world-specific aspect of the greater World serpent - each world/Sphere probably has one).

Loki has always been VERY hard to place in mythology, because of all the conflicting stories about him. So lets use D&D lore to fix real-world mythology, shall we? If all of these guys were 'Elder gods' (estelar and what-not), that puts them in The Time before Time. See where I am going with this? Before the shattering of the Lattice of Heaven (and the destruction of the First World), there was no time as we know it. There was Order (ruled-over by Chronepsis in my Overcosmology), and part of that was the order in which things came/happened, and that later - after the Dawn war - morphed into 'Time' (and Chronepsis became know as Chronos). So in those very early days, it IS entirely possible an earlier version of a god could interact with a later version of that same god, before the rules about such things became 'fixed'. I think this may have been what happened with the 'two Lokis' - we have an earlier, more primal aspect (probably Uthgard-Loki), and then we have a 'reborn' aspect (more Aesir-like and less Jotun-like) Asa-Loki. This may have occurred as part of some punishment handed-down by Odin after he became the high God of the Norse Pantheon (so post-Dawn war). 'Uthgard Loki' is more like a vestige at this point - it only still exists because it is remembered (so it can never truly 'die'), and would be very amoral. In other words, if it killed people just for a joke (because both aspects would still have that twisted sense of humor), it would have no problem with that. I think this is what happened in the case of Baldr, and you were unto something there - that Odin performed some Godly magic, and tried to save what he could of his brother, by distilling the 'guilty' (of murder) portion out of him, and recreating him anew, as a younger, more 'playful' god (one not so prone to hurting people on-purpose, but still very mischievous). In that way, one version of Loki (Uthgard) is Odin/Woten's brother, and the other (Asa), more like his 'son'.

Since I think of gods as amorphous balls of matter and energy (when not in an aspect mortals expect to see them in), pulling them apart and piecing them back together, and even adding bits from other Gods/beings al works within this framework - we have tons of evidence of this highly changeable aspect to godhood (with bi- and tripatriate deities, 'split' deities, and even with some of the heresies). This not only fits the narrative we need to create, but it also fits Odin's personality perfectly - especially if we are using the Marvel Comics Odin, since we see him doing something very similar with Thor (merging him with others, and creating new versions of him with other beings). In D&D, we see this also happening repeatedly - we have 'before & after' versions of several beings, including Orcus (who is also a dead aspect of himself - Tenebrous). If a god (or other being of at least that tier) 'dies', there will always remain an 'echo' of that being, since you can never fully erase the memories of that being from the minds of others (mortals maybe, and maybe even some low-lev gods, but not EVERYONE, and certainly not the Overgods). This would all be part of the 'legacy rules' leftover from the original universe, before the collapse of the Lattice of Heaven - you can change events within the time stream, but you can never erase them completely, because they already happened, regardless. There will always be an 'echo' of it somewhere.

Moving on to to other beings... I think all (or at least, most) of the Gods known as 'trickster' or even just 'mischievous' were so-named by Chronepsis, who absolutely HATED when any being broke his rules and interacted with itself ('crossed its own timeline'), because they could create paradoxes, which is the main problems he was in charge of fixing. Thus, beings like Monkey, Raven, and Coyote all fall outside 'the rules' are not that welcome in the various pantheons because of their flagrant disregard for the structure of the universe. Not necessarily 'evil', mind you - some of them can be quite 'good' - they just don't care about 'Law' at all. Hermes may also be one of these, although his actual 'Hermes' aspect is probably the most lawful of the bunch (probably got merged with someone else to become more level-headed). In the case of Coyote and Raven, they might even be Native American aspects of Uthgard-Loki and Asa-Loki, respectively.

Hmmmm... If I say Nerull was an aspect of 'The Raven' (or vice-versa), and it was that aspect that the raven Queen stole... Have to think on that one a bit more. If 'Raven' is actually the 'good' loki (LOL... not really 'good' - more like 'tamer'), that would give tRQ a bit of a Hela vibe (I'm thinking about the interactions between Hela and Loki in Marvel Comics now). They both love those giant horns. But Nerull as Loki doesn't really work at all... unless that IS the aspect that was killed. We could always say original Nerull was more of a 'Dark Trickster' (like The Raven), but the reborn one (because there had to be at least TWO) was much darker and not prone to trickery (The Raven Queen broke his heart, and now Nerull - the one from Gh - is a cold and bitter being).

So if tRQ is an aspect of Kiaransalee (and Auril, as I've theorized elsewhere), that makes the Raven Queen a very confused aspect of Auril that lost its memory, and then had some ancient aspect of Nerull/The Raven/Asa-Loki pasted on top. I can deal with that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2018 21:21:56
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8286 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  23:18:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, so I decided I'm changing the name of Valigan Thirdborn's consort that birth three monstrostities. I'd originally made it Haagenis, in reference to Haagenti... but not liking that as much. I'm thing Lamasgrboda (so hints to Angrboda, Loki's lover who birthed 3 monstrosities... but also to Lamashtu... a demoness related to monstrous births who also turned on Pazuzu and was entrapped by him.

Then I'm throwing in that Lamasgrboda not only birthed for Valigan the beings known as Chupocol the great spider (i.e. Chupoclops), Kezris the spirit wolf (i.e. Kezef/Fenris), and Jormungis the great sea serpent (i.e. Jormungand... and possibly Ourobouros)... she also birthed Heleshkiga, the blackhearted Queen of the Dead, who was forced into the Casket of Primordial Winters, and upon escaping was seen to have one side her perpetually frostbitten. Some say this shattered Heleshkiga's sanity.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Mar 2018 23:37:41
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  00:52:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
- Markustay

With Loki being Ve, and draconic, this would be interesting seeing Loki is often connected with Veles - Veles.

Veles was the God of the Underworld, and Magic, a trickster, who also had a draconic form the winged, often multi-headed black dragon Zmey.

Zmey, in many ways, also paralells to both Jormungand (being the antagonist of the Thor-like Perun), and Nidhoggr (being a dragon of the underworld).

-sleyvas

Hmmm, is maybe the idea of Heleshkiga (Ereshigal), being the daughter of Lamasgrboda (Lamashtu) is inspired by Pathfinder maybe?
As Lamashtu is there the mother of Areshkagal

Lamashtu is also the source of the myth of the Lamia, with the name "Lamia" being derived from Lamashtu's name.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
622 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  03:24:55  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while I like the idea of combining Eldath with Idun, she's also in many ways like Nerthus/Njörun/the sister-wife of Njörðr.

Eldath, like Nerthus/Njörun, is connected to nature and sea, and is a mother-goddess. (Eldath even has the titles "Mother of the Waters", and "Mother Guardian of Groves")

Eldath's earliest recorded worshippers, are seemingly sea elves and merfolk of Myth Nantar, and worshipped by water fey (nymphs and nereids) with Markustay, we concluded she may had been even one of the Yuir Deities (something though I considered a somwhat in past):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=10

I mention it, as you noticed a Slavic and Germanic/Norse theme with the Yuir Gods...

This could create an overlap with Yaernsacsa, but Yaernsacsa could be connected to the suffrace of the sea, and weaves, while Nerthus/Eldath to the depths, as suggested in the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook (by Steven E. Schend):
quote:
Notes: Despite the dogma oft-repeated by Umberlee's faithful, she no more rules the oceans than Talos
rules the land. Both gods influence and control the destruction
within their domains, but Umberlee's reach
extends only along the surface and the shallows to a
depth of about 100 feet. As Umberlee and her worshipers
dominate Upper Serôs among the shallows, Eldath
keeps the peace in the depths. More than 100 feet
below the surface, the chaos above rarely intrudes on
the peace, tranquility, and calm ballet of the tidal currents.
While Umberlee rules surface-worlders view of
the oceans, many here point to calm Eldath as the true
goddess of the sea.


Edited by - Baltas on 29 Mar 2018 03:28:21
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