Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Illefarn's capital
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1977 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  21:21:18  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couple alternate possibilities:

1) Perhaps their magic had an unintended defiling effect like Dark Sun

2) Perhaps they chose to take the sources of water elsewhere. They have numerous demiplanes as well as Deep Imaskar. Perhaps they stole the water in a sort of short-cut to making those places capable of long term sustenance. This would then feed into Wooly's dry condition scenario.

3) Perhaps the Imaskari were the original creators of the Lifedrain and Draindoom magics of the phaerimm - or other similar magics - with the alternate explanation that they were draining the life from the land in order to power their magical creations. This is kind of a combination of the previous two possibilities.

4) Perhaps the Imaskari transplanted the land that was Imaskar into their little dimensions - bodies of water and all - piece by piece. These pieces then became "earthmotes" floating about huge demiplanes. They ripped it all away and left only bedrock and substrate in their magic's wake. Over a thousand years this became a desert.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  22:49:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In regards to Imaskar - even if the desert was cuased by magic, I still have to ask why? Magic has its own logic, and unless the Imaskari and/or the Mulan gods cast a very specific epic spell called "make all the water go away and never return", I have to assume the magic affected some natural phenomena which is keeping the once-fertile basin dry.



My assumption is that the magic created the original, dry conditions, and those dry conditions changed the local weather patterns. Once the magic was taken out of the picture, the land was already dry and the weather had already changed -- so it became self-sustaining.

It's like drying a wet piece of cloth. That cloth may have initially been in water, but when you take it out of the water, it's going to dry. And as long as it stays in its new, non-watery locale, it's going to stay dry.
But that's not how weather - or any 'natural process' - works. Once you remove the artificial stimulant, it will revert. Irrigation canals are just one tiny version of that; the islands the crazy Kuwaiti built are a major example (they are finding the sea is 'taking them all back').

The Raurin is a 'basin' (its been called the Raurindi Basin in canon). Thats a depression - a place where water collects. Ergo, I surmise a big lake must have existed, and the capitol was located on it. If you look at any map of ancient cultures, you'll see all the major settlements where always near sources of water - mostly rivers, but many on the coast as well (at the mouths of rivers, usually). Back before plumbing, this was THE primary concern. From this lake (the 'collection point' for water) came at least one major river. Now, this may have had the same name as the river that took its place - The Athis, from Desert of Desolation. I surmise that the survivor states managed to keep themselves viable for some centuries by artificially providing the waters to the dry river bed that the lake used to provide for (because that's pretty much exactly what DoD says).

I wanted to say the mountain range to the south - The Dustwall was created as a direct result of the God war, because that would totally explain the weather change and why the 'basin' no longer collects water. But because of the stupid Gate of Iron, I CAN'T say that. I wish I could just ignore that one piece of lore - it would make everything so much easier.

So now I am left with two options. One works very well but goes much deeper into my personal homebrew - the Taan region was the old 'stomping grounds' of the Realms fey. There is a LOT of evidence to this effect. I think the Fey cast some sort of uber-ritual during the days of thunder, and created their own little 'paradise'. I think it had to do with warming Yal Tengri (The Great Ice Sea), thus melting the ice (providing tons of moisture to the region) and also warming the surrounding lands. I think the (canon) Mountain of Iron has something to do with this (perhaps a center-point/focus). And the battle between the gods and Imaskari disrupted that ancient magic, and the land has now returned to how it was meant to be.

A less obtrusive and more realistic version would be much simpler, and only require a little bit of lore-hacking. The actual center-point fr the basin is Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake), which makes a lot of sense when you stare at the (non-3e) maps long enough. A major river(The Athis?) branched off of that, and ran south (creating at least one decent sized lake), and off of that we had an entire river system/basin going on all over the Raurin. IN FACT, The Athis River - which was dried up at the time of 2e - ran THROUGH the Dustwall Mountains - its all part of the DOD adventure path, You follow that dry river to get to the various adventure sites. So if the original (theoretical) Athis River followed the same path as the later, artificial one (and there would be no reason for the survivor-states to have done otherwise), then we have clear evidence of a river system that is defunct because of the Imaskari God War.

And I think THAT is the way I would go if I ever got around to writing it all up. Its simpler than involving some ancient, broken mythal-like regional effect. Picture the Plains of Purple Dust (right now) as a very large, shallow crater (caused by the conflict). Craters have 'walls'. Sure, on a global scale they may not even show up on maps, but there should be enough of an incline around the perimeter to cause any water that once leeched off of the Gbor Nor to no longer do so. It wouldn't take much - slow incline of fifty feet or more spread over 300 miles; even if it was 100', that would still only be an incline of 1' every THREE MILES - not even visible with the naked eye! And we get up around the Gbor Nor - which does appear to be somewhat wrapping around a very large circle near the bottom - and we have cliffs there, where the water meats the 'desert' (this is the part that isn't canon, but by putting cliffs there, we resolve EVERYTHING).

Something like this. It's very rough - Inupras should be a tad more south, and that means the red circle would be bigger. I just wanted you guys to see what I am talking about.

Then the water is 'stuck', and like water will always do as it collects, it will find the easiest path to the sea - in this case, going down the Rauthenflow. I think maybe only half that river existed - the tributaries flowed into Gbor Nor, but then water began traveling the other way (back-flow) down the Rauthenflow as the lake exceeded its normal boundaries, and carved-out the western end of the river (which is why we still had rapids there 2e/3e, and waterfalls, etc - now its a clear path). All the water that used to empty in the Golden Waters (and then into the Great Sea) now dumps into the Sea of Fallen Stars (which also 'wasn't always there', and THAT is canon). This could mean the SoFS has risen slightly since the days of Imaskar (which would lead to such things as the widening of the Lis, etc.).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 22:55:43
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  22:57:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, did I go off-topic! DAMN... APOLOGIES.

On-topic:
Elves are NOT humans, they may not build - or think of things - in the same ways we do. Perhaps a capital 'outside' (or on the edge) of a nation isn't strange to them at all. There are MANY countries where the capital is nowhere near 'the center' (like Washinton D.C). We really can't be sure of what was considered 'Illefarn' at the time the capitol was where Conyberry is now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 23:02:33
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  00:57:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well.



Just to be clear, I've never read any of Snowblood's work - not that it isn't deserving of being read by all accounts. That was a conscious decision on my part as I didn't want to plagiarise any of his stuff unconsciously when doing my own thing re the elven realms of Faerūn. If there are parts of his work that reflect some of the stuff that I say or have said, then he's got that material from me, and not vice versa. I was the one who stated that the ruler of Illefarn's title was Iyilitar in my GHotR sidebar for the Descent of the Drow (-10000 DR).

-- George Krashos



Actually, I was thinking the part about Conyberry... never heard of it before, but maybe its in something else like LEoF. Or maybe its one some map.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  01:04:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My view has always been that the portal network between Ruathym, the Council Hills and Shandaular was created by the Ba'etith and pre-dated the elves. You'll note that GHotR doesn't give a Faerūnian location for the grand aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar other than to note that it is "in the west". I've always wondered whether Viakoo wasn't located on present-day Ruathym with the aearee coming there from continents further to the west. Just my 2 cp.
Just a local 'node' of a MUCH larger network, eh? (*cough* Road of Stars & Shadows *cough*)

My thoughts here is that the Batrachi, Sarrukh, and Aeree all had their own networks (which likely tapped into something more natural, like a Weave/Leylines thing), and when the Ba'etith started working together, the Batrachi (being the best at it) made modifications so that they could easily cross from one network to another, using the proper components (mostly verbal, but somatic and even material components - 'Keys' - may have been required for some places).

The thing that folks like Elminster, Larloch, and probably Halaster know that most others don't is that you can use any portal/gate to access any other permanent translocation platform, if you know 'the formula'. The Imaskari likely discovered this (hence Halaster's superior knowledge), and built massive Stargate-like devices that you could just 'dial-in' your desired destination. We actually saw Elminster do this in Elminster's Daughter; in fact, he changed his destination mid-travel (and I think even Larloch and Halaster would be VERY impressed by that).

The RoS&S is kind of like the NY subway system. To those unfamiliar with it, its a frightening, over-complicated mess, and you can very easily get lost (and end up somewhere where no-one ever finds you again... so NYC is VERY much a 'dungeon' LOL). To those that use it every day, its like second nature (those people are like the Imaskari), and they know how to 'tweak' their routes to get to where they want efficiently. Thus, with known 'portal networks' (like the one you've mentioned above), those are ones that have just been left on a preset set of coordinates, and without any sort of controller, they often have random glitches (they are trying to 'figure out' where the person wants to go without the person providing the proper 'sequence' of components). They are basically on 'auto-pilot', and stuck that way until an Imaskari portal-Lord (or a Batrachi Archificer) comes along and 'fixes' it. Some fey - especially archfey - can temporarily commandeer any gate and use it to go to and from Faerie (their own 'essence' acts as the correct 'key'). UNLESS the Gate is purposely warded against such a usage.

Just more of my 'random thoughts' I've had over the years, because I have found too many 'weirdnesses' regarding Gates/Portals for that 'tech' to be set in stone, as people think it is. Especially in Ed's writings... and he created the system.



It very well could be this, and then the elves turn around and take over this portal network, but they put their own stamp on it.... they change the means by which you open it by "keying" them to song magic. Thus, the batrachi may have intertwined other folks networks, and then the elves simply "put a new lock on the doorway" and called it their own.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5243 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  04:13:00  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loldrup

Why would they place the capital at the very northern border of their empire?



Well, why not? But if that doesn't work for you, you can have Illefarn's original capital at the site of Waterdeep as well, but simply note that it was destroyed by the Vyshaan and then rebuilt and renamed after the Crown Wars. There is no "right" answer to this query.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 21 Feb 2018 04:13:40
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31406 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  05:04:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by loldrup

Why would they place the capital at the very northern border of their empire?



Well, why not? But if that doesn't work for you, you can have Illefarn's original capital at the site of Waterdeep as well, but simply note that it was destroyed by the Vyshaan and then rebuilt and renamed after the Crown Wars. There is no "right" answer to this query.

-- George Krashos



And in the absence of canon, there are no wrong answers, either.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4068 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  07:07:18  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In real world capitals are often near a border.

London
Washington
Sydney

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  10:09:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Russia is a great example. Most of the country is on another continent from the capital.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000