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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  03:29:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for deep gnomes, someone may have done something similar for them (considering gnomes are ALSO fey, they must need sunlight as well). Not sure who that would have been - the only person in the Gnome pantheon I am familiar with is Garl Glitterpants.

Anyhow, I've established that A) Faerzress nodes are ANCIENT, and B) Lolth may have attuned the drow to them at a later time, right when the descent occured or soon after. Thus, Drow (and others) might believe Faerzress was created by Lolth for them, but that's not entirely accurate. What she created was the link between drow and Faerzress.

EDIT:
So them turning black was most likely an unexpected side-effect of them being attuned to Faerzress. I think what Faerzress is is 'Raw Magic' (actually chunks of the fused 'bodies' of The Ymir and The Gaea). The radiation is just too powerful for mortals to handle, and it instantly 'burns up' normal matter. When the Netherese got ahold of some of it, it took the form of a thick, gel-like BLACK substance (very similar to raw petroleum or tar). So things turn 'black' when infused with Raw magic, and drow turned black and were able to use Faerzess, so that's why I see a possible connection. Lolth managed to replace their 'Fey magic' resonance with raw magic resonance.

Hmmmmm... I think I just managed to accidentally reason-out that Sunlight = The Fey Power Source.

I may have to make the Feywild a Supernal... Ki?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 03:39:39
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  03:32:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's still the matter that there's no way that the elves created the faerzress, tho. The concepts that those novels tried to introduce really can't be reconciled with the rest of Realmslore. They are flat-out contradictory, you either take one or the other.

Aside from that, there's still the fact that deep gnomes are affected by faerzress in a very similar way (it leads me to think that it's a natural reaction of fey-related beings to faerzress), and that the drow could indeed live just fine far from the faerzress. They could use divine and arcane magic unrelatedly to that, they never felt any impulse to go back and get their fix. They merely lost their basic racial powers and spell resistance. They also got to retain that, alongside other faerzress-based magic, after Liriel did her thing.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 22 Feb 2018 03:36:09
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4341 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  04:44:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



EDIT:
So them turning black was most likely an unexpected side-effect of them being attuned to Faerzress.



The Dark elves were black before the Descent. There again it appears they were green as to more recent lore. I have a hard time getting the editions to come close to making sense. The because they are deities only works so well.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  11:41:02  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe I'm some editions late, but...

If you consider some powers the drow have (darkness, etc.) it is probable that their very nature is kind of half-fiendish (maybe by influence of the faerzress). Besides, have you noticed that the original (human) cambions do look somehow like drow?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  12:39:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Couldn't we spin things so its all works?

Suppose Faerzress is some sort of 'elemental magic' node (and in FR magic = 'life', so basically a type of radiation that would 'add too much life' to something; ie., cancer, etc.). Like other nodes, they're part of the fabric of the universe. Now, Lolth being a god knows some of these inner workings. When she sees what the elves and Seldarine are trying to do to her people, she (and perhaps some of her playmates) tap into what the Elves are doing, and pervert the ritual.

Normal (surface) elves can derive sustenance from sunlight. This is probably more prevalent in their fey ancestry than it is today, but it is still there, almost like a vestigial ability. Elves need sunlight - it even says so in the CBoE. This is why they do not fare well in captivity. So rather then just turning this against them - making sunlight harmful and anathema to them, Lolth twists it so that what sunlight did for them before, the Faerzress - an existing power source - will do for them after the ritual. Now the Drow have become dependent upon the faerzress, in much the same way an addict needs their 'fix'.

Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate to create her own (Demon) Weave - she lost one of the major factors she used to control them (by being stuck in the underdark - in Drow cities - they were forced to live under the matriarchal theocracy that is drow society, with Lolth at the top of the food-chain). Post-Liriel, this is no longer the case, and drow can leave their settlements freely and even go to the surface if they want.

Drizzt was a special case - it has always been assumed by the fanbase that Mielikki used her own power to replace the normal Ranger abilities with ones identical to what he would have lost on the surface. I'm sure he must find it annoying, because now any drow can do the same thing (and he STILL doesn't get Ranger spells LOL).



And said radiation had a bad affect on their brains in many cases, causing them to be even more paranoid and xenophobic... and if anyone ever cut their heads open they'd see most dark elves have some kind of cranial cancer.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1789 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  12:37:36  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The primary - really only source about the power of any of the elven gods way back when is Elaine's Evermeet novel. In it, even in the beginning Lloth was more powerful on Toril than her children, as well as Malar - though it seemed (and this IS an assumption) she was significantly less powerful than That Which Lurks. Now - we really do not see ANY of her faithful in that novel before modern times, but that doesn't mean they are not out there somewhere in the 99.999999 percent of the world we never see in the book. Also, it should be noted that as part of that books structure, literally ALL of the stories that are presented as happening in real time are Danilo's version of elvish legends. There could be 0 truth to all of it, and as such 0 truth to literally every other source that refers to them (GHotR, for example). 3rd E sort of regurgitated the stories as fact a few years later, but who knows - might all just be so much elvish tall tales.

The other thing we saw for the first time in that novel was Wendonai working to corrupt the dark elves (and getting schooled :P). This was expanded into the tainted bloodline thing much later, only to have several novels written within the year basically undoing that taint in one way or another. It played out as sort of a Keystone Kops episode in my mind, with drow gods running around everywhere at once tripping over themselves and their followers and dying and being reborn and then killing each other and dying and being reborn and BLAH... Now that background music will be stuck in my head. Oh yeah, don't forget the fact that drow priests are now casting high magic without any training.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  14:00:56  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The primary - really only source about the power of any of the elven gods way back when is Elaine's Evermeet novel. In it, even in the beginning Lloth was more powerful on Toril than her children, as well as Malar - though it seemed (and this IS an assumption) she was significantly less powerful than That Which Lurks. Now - we really do not see ANY of her faithful in that novel before modern times, but that doesn't mean they are not out there somewhere in the 99.999999 percent of the world we never see in the book. Also, it should be noted that as part of that books structure, literally ALL of the stories that are presented as happening in real time are Danilo's version of elvish legends. There could be 0 truth to all of it, and as such 0 truth to literally every other source that refers to them (GHotR, for example). 3rd E sort of regurgitated the stories as fact a few years later, but who knows - might all just be so much elvish tall tales.


She was more powerful than her children before she betrayed Corellon. After that, Vhaeraun and even Eilistraee were more influent than her when she arrived on Toril. Mostly because she had absolutely 0 influence on that world after she was banished.

quote:
The other thing we saw for the first time in that novel was Wendonai working to corrupt the dark elves (and getting schooled :P). This was expanded into the tainted bloodline thing much later, only to have several novels written within the year basically undoing that taint in one way or another. It played out as sort of a Keystone Kops episode in my mind, with drow gods running around everywhere at once tripping over themselves and their followers and dying and being reborn and then killing each other and dying and being reborn and BLAH... Now that background music will be stuck in my head.



The un-tainting thing didn't even work. Only some hundred drow among were affected by the high magic spell, as explicitly said in those novels. That's a minority even among the followers of Eilistraee, as lesser god(desse)s have about a few thousand followers (and her followers were the only ones affected, aside from those 2-3 guys who were not tainted to begin with). In fact both the goddess and most of her followers are still drow right now.

That said, as time passed, the taint didn't really do anything except making the elven gods not want the drow in their realm. Over 10k+ years, no drow deity has ever worked to undo it in any way. Even Eilistraee *never* cared about transforming or "cleansing" the drow with some kind of magic--that simply isn't what she's about, and she didn't even make a single move towards it, not a hint, nothing.

Until WotC wanted to prepare the drow for 4e, at least, so they had to make those novels filled with an incredible amount of contradictions and--at times--outright nonsense. Even then, it wasn't Eilistraee herself, but her mage followers who wanted to undo it (Eilistraee even withdrew her guidance at some point during the spell).

So, the drow pantheon never really cared about the drow being tainted, mostly because it means little. It probably meant more back at the times of Ilythiir, but it clearly lost its effects over the generations.

quote:
Oh yeah, don't forget the fact that drow priests are now casting high magic without any training.


AFAIK, they still can't. It was a mage follower of Eilistraee who did that, he did it only because he found that kiira, and he even failed (since his spell didn't do what he intended it to do, as I explained above--but that might have been due to Eilistraee or whoever interfering with it).

That said, most of what happened in those novels, including the ritual thing, has been essentially ignored and then undone (or outright deleted) by WotC. Personally, I really don't think that they are a good source to build other lore or to make speculations.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Feb 2018 14:06:46
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  20:28:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the thing - and most of this is going to be extrapolation from what little sources we have dealing with this sort of thing, and conversations with Ed (here and elsewhere) about the 'nature of divinity', and also a little input from other designers (probably mostly Rich Baker) back when I was regular on the WotC forums*, among other folks. In other words, count this as my personal 'homebrewed' rendition, but with LOTS of research behind the theories involved.

Gods (and I am using the term in the broadest sense, to include EVERYTHING of exarch-tier or higher) don't have any power source when they first arrive on a world (within a setting/Crystal Sphere). They DO have the power they came with. Picture this being akin to traveling abroad and having a battery power-tool with you... but you forgot to bring the adapter-cables so you could plug it in when you arrived at your destinations. Now, when you go to Africa or wherever, you might have the niftiest screwgun, and be able to drill holes through tempered steel is seconds, to everyone's amazement, but the more you use it, and the harder you use it, the more it 'runs down'. Eventually, the guy with the primitive stick and twine method of drilling into wood is going to be better than you, because your drill bit isn't even moving, or just barely moving. You go from being the 'kewl kid' on the block to being a joke with your non-functioning tool.

So you need a power source. The sooner you set one up that works for you (and your tools), the better. Lolth arrives with her combo-kit of amazing 24V tools, and out-classes just about everyone (except Gaunadaur... but he still uses corded tools LOL), but if she doesn't 'set up shop' SAP, she's gonna be in trouble, and depending upon how much power she uses up and how quickly she dos that, she is soon going to be out-classed be even demigods and arch-somethings. And in this scenario, if you haven't figured it out yet, 'religion' is the power source. Some Gods - mostly primordials - can gain power in a sphere without an established religion, because their portfolios cover more basic, natural aspects of the universe. Someone like Lolth doesn't have that, though.

So while you can say, "she was uber-powerful when she arrived" (and I am clearly NOT seeing that in that novel at all), and perhaps that might be true from whatever 'world' she came from (which could have just been her own godly demesne... which DOES 'count' toward your power-base), she would quickly start to 'dwindle' as soon as she arrived, because even without using an ostentatious demonstrations of power, she still needs to maintain her avatar. This is like having a car alarm - it is constantly drawing power, even when in 'off' mode, so if you don't start your car at least once a week, you could wind up with problems (and I am using this example because precisely that happened to me recently - I hadn't started a vehicle for six weeks, and then it wouldn't start - I had forgotten all about the alarm-drain). So, if all lolth did was sit in faerūn quietl on a chair (and I'm pretty certain she didn't), eventually her avatar would 'run down', and if fizzled completely (ceased to exist), she would have to 'heal' that part of her and not be able to recreate one (for that slot) for quite some time (I think I once guestimated a year). Anyhow, my point is, it doesn't really matter how powerful someone is when they arrive somewhere, they had better setup a power-base as fast as they can, because that 'unnatural' state of being (within that Sphere or plane) will soon start to harm them, and they are at a great disadvantage compared to established deities, even if those gods are normally of a lesser 'tier' than the new arrival. Home-field advantage is everything in godhood.

So like any good online porn story, 'mom' shows up at the frathouse party to drag her kids home, but soon finds herself in one of the bedrooms on her back.

And if you think thats a gross analogy, bear in mind that right after her arrival, Lolth started 'having relations' with K'narlist, and managed to get him to get his people behind her (pun intended LOL). She did what she had to do to establish herself quickly. Don't think of her poorly, though... ALL gods are prostitutes. Even the males. Mystra, anyone?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2018 20:40:18
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1638 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  08:30:21  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

there's really no reason why there shouldn't be drow'ri.

My point is, there probably are many, but the difference in visibility is great. While existence of a handful of fey'ri clans was enough of a reason for the whole war/extreme posturing/burying alive mess, some drow being fiend-blooded just isn't a "big deal". Or perhaps not even noticeable most of the time (after but a few generations), unless one knows exactly what to look for.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Eilistraee's followers are at least a few thousands, being her a lesser power.

Much more, being her a lesser power. Dedicated worship 10-12% of all drow. All worship 22%, with more than 1/7 on top of that from worshipers other than drow.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.

I'd rather consider whether phenomena can be specific variations of a more general trend, when possible. All elves (as somewhat magical creatures) seem to have a thing for some sort of radiance - starlight/moonlight/sunlight. So when the drow were forcibly disconnected from their old fount of "magic vitamins", why they would not cling to the closest strong source of something similar?
Of course, this does have really funny implications.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Accept for one problem - she was a Demon-Queen when WE were first introduced to her, and no matter how much you fudge the timelines between GH and FR, that can't have been more than a hundred and fifty years ago.

I don't accept it's a problem unless it can be demonstrated to actually be meaningful, rather than some Clueless hostile to the entity in question being duped.
Also, if some Greater powers (in their own home) may act as effectively (locally on Prime) lesser deities due to low involvement with mortals (Elemental Lords), why multi-sphere deities won't vary in effective power level with waxing and waning connection?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

makes it more likely that she'd let her followers have all sorts of interactions with demons -- including horizontal ones.

Why just "horizontal ones" if they can levitate?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate

Not the drow, Faerzess-powered magic.
But it merely stopped being incompatible with sunlight, which resolved a "hardware conflict" (which used to sometimes cause wild magic), either between the Weave and Faerzess or within the Weave (if Faerzess-based quasimagic is a part of it rather than a separate secondary power source). Nothing else got changed.
Also, Lolth quite obviously supported this mission. All 3 of Liriel's goddesses did, for different reasons. Hence the mess.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
426 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  12:05:34  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for deep gnomes, someone may have done something similar for them (considering gnomes are ALSO fey, they must need sunlight as well). Not sure who that would have been - the only person in the Gnome pantheon I am familiar with is Garl Glitterpants.



A minor correction, Markustay, since I consider myself a resident Gnomish expert.

The Gnome pantheon's chief deity is Garl GlitterGOLD.

Garl Glitterpants happens to be his long-lost twin brother, whereupon Garl Glitterpants is the Gnomish God of Disco.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  21:47:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL - I have been reading his name that way since I first bought the 1e DD guide oh so many years ago (and it was my FIRST TSR purchase). I had other books given or lent to me, for I had been playing D&D (and other RPGs) for a couple of years already. I will always read his name thusly, because it makes me smile (and think back when I bought that most wonderous tome).

I have a new theory {did I just hear the sound of a stampede leaving? }... well, maybe not so much 'new', as it is an extension of my already-existing, ever-evolving 'Overcosmology' theorems. I have 12 dimensions now, or rather, had twelve - twp conjoined into one, giving us the current '11-dimensional model'. Some of that is fairly new. Bu what I've been focusing on as of late is 'power sources', and I think there is one 'Cosmic Power Source' per dimension. (Arcane) Magic is Mana, and is linked to Gaea (who is the conjoined dimension of Ymir) - the two together are now linked: The Material planes & Magic. And the two Supernals represent the two sides of Raw Magic - Positive & negative, or Arcane and Umbral (Shadow). Really, two sides of the same coin.

Most of that is old material I am just repeating for clarity. But with that, I now realize I should have sources of power for each dimension. The 4th dimension/Time/Chronus should have some sort of 'Tempera' (Temporal) energy. It also means there should have been one for Ahura Mazda (proto-Jazirian) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), which should mean there should be some sort of 'fiendish' power source emanating from the pits of Hell, as well (and likewise, a 'Divine' one emanating from the Heavens). And so on, and so forth (I'm still on the fence of whether I want to change the Feywild into a dimension).

I am only discussing this stuff here because it also relates to aboriginal planer races, which I am now redefining as Dimensional races. The Baatorans are native to the dimension/being of Angra-Mainyu. They are literally dollops of 'Fiend energy' given sentience, that form naturally from the Planestuff. Each dimension should have these (which is why I am having trouble with the Fey and Feywild with this new take). 'Angels' arise out of the divine energy permeating the Upper Planes (the Ahura-Mazda). EVERYTHING else would be an 'interloper' at some point, even Tannar'ri and Batezu, who may have 'gone native', but aren't aboriginal. The closest thing to 'aborigines' of the Abyss would be the elementals, which would include their 'nobility', the Dgen. So I suppose Tanar'ri ARE aboriginal, in the sense that they are corrupted forms of the elementals.

And now this all made me realize that of this 'naturally occurring' (spawning) planesraces, their should be at least two 'tiers' - common, and Hier[b]arch[/i]. If we pretend the universe is a CCG, maybe there is also an in-between tier of 'Uncommon'.
Hier[b]arch[/i]s rarely spawn anymore, since most of them are long-established (Arch-this or that). Or perhaps they still do spawn, but the established one move quickly to destroy/subvert it. Except on the Upper Planes, where they'll always welcome an new Archangel (maybe).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2018 21:47:32
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  21:51:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
***UGH!***

As usual, I completely lost my point I was trying to make - sorry.

My point was going to be that Faerzress is something 'leftover' - a power source forgotten about. Perhaps a piece of the original Ymir (or even a node of some other dimension).

Or, what if that is a purified form* of some 'Fey power source'? And it can react with (mutate, etc... all power-sources should have some form of 'radiation') with most things, but reacts the most heavily with stuff of fey origins - Dark Elves, and gnomes? It seems to me it would almost be a corrupted form of the fey power source (like how we have 'places of power' for fey on the surface, these sub-surface ones would be corrupted versions).

EDIT:
This is a whole new line of reasoning for me, so if its inconsistent, my apologies. Its still evolving. I don't like turning the Feywild into a dimension, so I have to play with that some more. Perhaps its a reflection of a dimension... something like that.

And DAMN, I hate musing about this stuff right now, knowing there is a book coming out that's going to stomp all over whatever I come up with.

EDIT2:
* And by 'purified', I mean its too dangerous for mortals to handle, just like Raw magic is to humans. It has a corrupting/warping/mutagenic affect on a race it is most 'tuned to'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2018 21:56:55
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