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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  03:19:29  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I was always under the impression that the drow got their innate abilities from the influence of the balor Wendonai (at the urging of Lolth).



They're a side effect of the faerzress, that I know. It's the whole reason why they used to lose their abilities if they spent too much time away from the Underdark (before Liriel did her thing, that is).



Ultimately both may be true. After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.



Idk, faerzress and conjurations/planar stuff don't seem to be on friendly terms, so to speak.

We could think up a lot of reasons why the faerzress only affects drow in that way. For example, it might be related to their being fey-related. After all, svirfneblin too are affected in a similar way, and gnomes too should be related to the fey in some way, IIRC.

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Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 03:19:54
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  06:03:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' when they became drow, thus, they are all tainted by her.



IIRC, Lolth was already a goddess again when the Ilythiiri were cursed. She was already part of the Dark Seldarine. The exact way that she regained her divinity is not really clear AFAIK, tho.

Accept for one problem - she was a Demon-Queen when WE were first introduced to her, and no matter how much you fudge the timelines between GH and FR, that can't have been more than a hundred and fifty years ago.

Lolth became a Greater Goddess during the terrible series, War of the Spider Queen (you know, the one that starred a completely different cast of characters in each book... who just happened to have the same names as the characters from the last book), but I think she was a lesser or intermediate goddess before that.

If anything, I am only seeing Lolth become a lesser goddess as of 2e - what was the 'start date' of 2e FR? Sometime in the 1360's? Who knows? maybe she ate someone during the ToT and got a power boost.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 06:05:05
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LordofBones
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  06:16:37  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lolth was an Intermediate Power in Demihuman Deities and Monster Mythology. The one who got a power boost between 2e and 3.5e was Kiaransalee.
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  09:23:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm talking about between 1e and 2e. I'm pretty sure Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' in 1e. Then post-2e (so post-ToT), she's suddenly an intermediate power.

So even if we pretend she was a lesser power in 1e and people were still calling her a 'Demon Queen', we'd have something like this -

0e - Demon Queen
1e - Lesser Power
2e - Intermediate power
3e - Greater Power
4e - Estelar(?)
5e - Overgod of the Universe?

It seems she's having a rather meteoric raise. No wonder she tried to create her own Spider Weave (Yeah, I know... it was the 'Demon Weave', but I think 'Spider Weave' {Web?} would have sounded cooler).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 09:24:18
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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  11:07:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Accept for one problem - she was a Demon-Queen when WE were first introduced to her, and no matter how much you fudge the timelines between GH and FR, that can't have been more than a hundred and fifty years ago.




In the FR timeline, the Descent happens in -10k DR. OTOH, if I'm not mistaken, Lolth only could start getting some influence in Ilythiir when the First Sundering destroyed the coastal regions of old Ilythiir. That kind of wreaked havoc in the balance of powers in Ilythiir (Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur were the main deities, especially the former), and Lolth then started to gain more prominence. That happened in -17,5K, so it's at least 7,5K years for her to ascend before the Descent.

Idk how that goes with the GH timeline, but--to me--it's another reason to just let each world be its own thing.

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Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 11:08:16
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  13:52:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay is right though. WE tend to think of Lolth as having always been a goddess, but what empirical evidence do we have of this? Along the same lines, is Orcus a god or a demon leading a cult? Yet, in FR he was treated as a god with clerics. According to the lore, was Asmodeus even a god prior to now, or was he just leader of devil cults? Now, maybe Asmodeus had a divine spark in OTHER crystal spheres (which opens up another whole discussion of what it means to be a god between different crystal spheres and under different overpowers, etc...). Maybe in other crystal spheres, Lolth is still nothing more than a demon queen running a cult. In fact, some of the earliest "gods" we see worshipped according to GHotR are all demons. Which given that the abyss and the elemental chaos seem to have some ties to one another.... makes one wonder if some of the original demon lords aren't simply some kind of perversion of primordial/dawn titan.

For all we know, it was the sudden influx of faith energy when the rules of gods changed after the ToT that suddenly surged Lolth up the charts. What exactly were the rules of gods versus primordials/demon lords/archfey/primal spirits prior to this? We don't know. As a possibility, was it a factor that after the ToT anyone "worshipped" in FR was suddenly given a "divine spark"? For instance were Orcus, Lolth, and even Gargauth, etc.. suddenly granted the "god feat" with the caveat of "get worshipped or get dead". Prior to the ToT were gods simply given a pass on having to maintain divine fervor, unlike say demon lords, who if they wanted power NEEDED sacrifices? Were "gods" essentially on "government checks" and just held by Ao to keep their portfolios running so he didn't have to worry with the mess. Was he simply on the side of gods because the primordials were wasting "energy" needlessly building and destroying things to pass the time?

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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:06:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm talking about between 1e and 2e. I'm pretty sure Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' in 1e. Then post-2e (so post-ToT), she's suddenly an intermediate power.

So even if we pretend she was a lesser power in 1e and people were still calling her a 'Demon Queen', we'd have something like this -

0e - Demon Queen
1e - Lesser Power
2e - Intermediate power
3e - Greater Power
4e - Estelar(?)
5e - Overgod of the Universe?

It seems she's having a rather meteoric raise. No wonder she tried to create her own Spider Weave (Yeah, I know... it was the 'Demon Weave', but I think 'Spider Weave' {Web?} would have sounded cooler).



In 5e, she lost most of what WotC had her gain before with the Silence (that didn't make any sense to begin with, but w/e).

She squandered a lot of resources chasing projects like that Demon Weave that were destined to fail from the get-go (Ed explained that Lolth simply didn't have the knowledge or the finesse to sustain a Weave, that hers was simply leeching on what remained of Mystra's, risking an actual collapse of the Weave. Elminster, Storm and the other chosen had to help Lolth sustain her new Weave until Mystra returned, to avoid something even worse than the Spellplague). She's got to deal with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee again. Her darkening thingy and war against the Silver Marches thing failed. The Demon Lords were sent back to the Abyss before she could achieve her goals, and so on.

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Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 14:07:42
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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:13:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Markustay is right though. WE tend to think of Lolth as having always been a goddess, but what empirical evidence do we have of this? Along the same lines, is Orcus a god or a demon leading a cult? Yet, in FR he was treated as a god with clerics. According to the lore, was Asmodeus even a god prior to now, or was he just leader of devil cults? Now, maybe Asmodeus had a divine spark in OTHER crystal spheres (which opens up another whole discussion of what it means to be a god between different crystal spheres and under different overpowers, etc...). Maybe in other crystal spheres, Lolth is still nothing more than a demon queen running a cult. In fact, some of the earliest "gods" we see worshipped according to GHotR are all demons. Which given that the abyss and the elemental chaos seem to have some ties to one another.... makes one wonder if some of the original demon lords aren't simply some kind of perversion of primordial/dawn titan.

For all we know, it was the sudden influx of faith energy when the rules of gods changed after the ToT that suddenly surged Lolth up the charts. What exactly were the rules of gods versus primordials/demon lords/archfey/primal spirits prior to this? We don't know. As a possibility, was it a factor that after the ToT anyone "worshipped" in FR was suddenly given a "divine spark"? For instance were Orcus, Lolth, and even Gargauth, etc.. suddenly granted the "god feat" with the caveat of "get worshipped or get dead". Prior to the ToT were gods simply given a pass on having to maintain divine fervor, unlike say demon lords, who if they wanted power NEEDED sacrifices? Were "gods" essentially on "government checks" and just held by Ao to keep their portfolios running so he didn't have to worry with the mess. Was he simply on the side of gods because the primordials were wasting "energy" needlessly building and destroying things to pass the time?



It may be the case, but that would also make the difference between gods and other powerful entities very arbitrary. In my Realms, I personally treat all outer beings as entities that are strongly tied to certain ideas and that draw power from people's belief or from the strength/prominence of the concept itself. Deities and demons share that aspect, they have different names because they represent different things to those who gave them that name.

That said, in the Realms gods have always relied on faith. Before the ToT they didn't need it to survive, but they drew strength from it nonetheless. In Evermeet, Lolth's whole plan is to become a goddess again by drawing elves and drow to her. So, it makes sense that in those 7.5k years (actually, more than that) she rose from Demon to deity.

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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  21:35:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is why I had to create that odd layer of 'Ubertars' in my homebrew cosmological musings. These are 'local' (sphere-specific) aspects, and they can be somewhat different than the 'core being' - related but different portfolios, appearance (nothing more than 'mortal expectations'), and even power-level. Once established, they can create their own avatars, and even send them off to other worlds to spread their power-base. This is why we can have different aspects of the same deity on one world. That wasn't how the system was setup to work - it was supposed to be one aspect per Crystal Sphere. And in most cases, that's precisely how it works. In core, we call the 'mother of monsters' archtype Tiamat. On Krynn, they call her aspect Takhisis. They are different. Its possible that Takhisis has even managed to diverge from the 'core being' enough to become her own autonomous God at this point (and that happens, usually by the being absorbing others, but it can also happen through mortal religion & dogma).

In the case of 'good' gods, these aspects usually get along when they find themselves within the same sphere. Evil ones tend to try and destroy/absorb the other. But there are always exceptions, and its all on a case-by-case basis. Maybe Grummsh One-Eye allows Gruumsh two-eye to stick around, maybe he doesn't. It depends on the world-specific circumstances. So Aspects and my Ubertars are basically the same thing - it's just that one from another setting has interloped on a different version's territory, in cases where we have differing versions of the same god on one world (this is most often caused by large groups of mortals interloping, and 'bringing their gods with them').

More On-Topic:
So here's what I think may have gone-on with Lolth. A LONG time ago Lolth discovered the Realms. She was still a Demon Queen at that time. HOWEVER, Lolth was sort of unique (at least, back then), because she was a former God. The whole thing with Corellon turning her into a demon is just weird, because I've already establish the 'demon' and 'devil' are more like job descriptions. I almost get the idea that what he did there was confine her to the Abyss... and she eventually found a way to get out. So really, she didn't change, just her address did. We have other instances wherein 'fiends' have taken on titles of nobility/royalty, so those may all be cases where they were NOT Tanar'ri or Baatezu to begin with (which ARE 'races').

So Lolth's 'essence' was stuck in the Abyss, thanks to Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine, and she carved a nice little home out for herself there. She was still able to send out avatars, though, which maybe Corellon didn't count on. One of them discovers The Realms, and she sees the drow - whom she's always had a kinship to - and decides to promote herself as their God... and she eventually succeeds, with some help from others along the way (Wendonai, etc). This creates an interesting problem - she now has an Ubertar (Aspect) that has somewhat more power than her core-being, or, at least, an equal amount of power. She realizes she can use this to eventually break-free of her imprisonment. Eventually, the Lolth of The Realms even diverges a bit from her core aspect (which is stuck as a drow-headed spider). Her name even changes slightly to Lloth, and she is seen as a beautiful (rather than disgusting) spider with a human upperbody and head. Elsewhere in the multiverse, they are still seeing Lolth as a spider-headed Demon-Queen (her 'core' stuck in the Abyss). Who knows? Maybe she seen the stunt Tiamat pulled* to get herself free from Baator, or maybe it was the other way around, or maybe they had nothing to do with each other -they were both very clever.

So Lolth lets her Lloth aspect get bigger and stronger, until she is an intermediate goddess - something her core persona fell short of. This means she had established a greater portion of her power outside the Abyss. So Lloth - her Faerūnian aspect - sets the wheels in motion to become a greater God, by 'pulling' the rest of her out of the Abyss. This is what is going on in the background of War of the Spider Queen. She siphons more of her core power off - placing it in mortal receptacles (her 'Chosen'), and is finally able to tear the Demonweb Pits right out of the Abyss (actually, they were 'copied', VERY much like what Ravenoft does with geography). Basically, once she managed to get all of her out from under Corellon's curse, a new version of the DWP formed around her in the Outer Planes. This is the conclusion we see at the end of the WotSQ series. By the Logic of Magic, the being the curse was meant for 'no longer existed'.

Just one problem - core Lolth wasn't as clever as FR Lloth, and although it was more of a merger than a subsuming, our (FR) Lolth 'got dumber', or rather, didn't have the experiences FR-specifc Lloth did, and she wound up making a bunch of the same mistakes that got her in trouble in the first place - over-reaching, and an impetuous nature that lead her to move forward before everything was ready (in other words, a more 'chaotic' recklessness that our FR Lloth managed to get out of her system a LONG time ago).

And that would be the situation we are at today - just one unified 'Lolth' again, and our FR aspect is a direct, almost exact copy of the core archtype at this point (which is good for FR mortals, because it means we have the headstrong and impulsive version now).


*Something I assume we are going to be made privy to in the upcoming Mordenakinen's Tome of Foes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 21:42:11
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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  21:41:43  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[...]
And that would be the situation we are at today - just one unified 'Lolth' again, and our FR aspect is a direct, almost exact copy of the core archtype at this point (which is good for FR mortals, because it means we have the headstrong and impulsive version now).





This explanation with your "Ubertar" idea makes far more sense than the *actual* contradictory nonsense that was the WotSQ plot.

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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  21:43:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you - I put WAY too much effort into trying to make sense of everything TSR/WotC has done to D&D over the past 48 years.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 21:43:31
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  04:57:13  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lloth was cast down to demon by Corellon. She then built up her demon power over however many eons that took. No clue. She was a goddess more powerful that Eilistraee by the time elves reached Faerun - this means she's intermediate by -25000. The bump to greater doesn't happen until she goes all cocoon. I assume that because she was goddess / lord of the demonweb pits layer of the abyss that you can still call her a demon at this time.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  05:07:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regardless of how long she was a demon, the fact that she was a demon and is still served by demons makes it more likely that she'd let her followers have all sorts of interactions with demons -- including horizontal ones.

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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  10:23:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Lloth was cast down to demon by Corellon. She then built up her demon power over however many eons that took. No clue. She was a goddess more powerful that Eilistraee by the time elves reached Faerun - this means she's intermediate by -25000. The bump to greater doesn't happen until she goes all cocoon. I assume that because she was goddess / lord of the demonweb pits layer of the abyss that you can still call her a demon at this time.
Some of this is 'opinion'.

Eilistraee was already established on Toril when Lolth showed up. So was Vhaeruan. The only 'Dark Seldarine' who wasn't invited to the party was Momma Lolth.

You aren't anything (maybe a demi-power) before you have an established following on a world. She may have been important on other worlds, but not on Toril. And she definitely was just a 'Demon Queen' under 200 years ago on Oerth, and on other known D&D worlds the drow have never even heard of her (except for the 4e Nerath setting, so I guess she added that one recently).

I don't really see her being as important or powerful as folks seem to make her out. I think she does the same thing Mystra does - its all PR. This is probably why she keeps such a tight lid on her followers. She's really just a tiny fish in a very large pond.

Buuuuut... I have a feeling all of this will be answered (canonically) fairly soon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2018 10:24:27
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  13:18:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.

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Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  14:20:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lolth gets a lot of hype. Meanwhile, Urdlen and Kanchelsis also live in the Abyss, are also multispheric and are also Intermediate Powers. I think the implications are a lot more terrifying; how many worlds have been condemned to orgies of blood and flesh, how many worlds have been reduced to living nightmares of hate and wrath and blind alien malevolence, while Lolth works her schemes?

Lolth, chief of the Dark Seldarine, is an Intermediate Power.

Urdlen, Outcast and the only dark power of the Gnome Pantheon, a thing of indescribable malevolence and hatred, is also an Intermediate Power.

Kanchelsis, who rules over vampires and blood and the corruption of the vital forces, who has no priests, is also an Intermediate Power.

The drow? Who cares about the drow? Think of the sheer horror that Urdlen must invoke for him that he's inches away from greater divinity. Think of the lifeblood of worlds that Kanchelsis must have supped on, and of the vampires eager to please the greatest of their kind with greater and grander sanguine feasts.

They're infinitely more terrifying than "My race has not collapsed through creator fiat" Lolth.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  17:20:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.



They were created by Ed for FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark -- the original tome of that name, and the only one that was FR specific.

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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  17:33:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.



They were created by Ed for FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark -- the original tome of that name, and the only one that was FR specific.



They actually date to before that, Eilistraee does at least. Ed said that he created Eilistraee for his own Realms, and that she had already showed up in his campaign before DotU. He only made her official when TSR asked him for more drow deities: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/edverse/hello_internet/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read_more#comment-1534073727

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Edited by - Irennan on 21 Feb 2018 17:41:24
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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  17:38:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.



Vhaeraun used to be the main deity of Ilythiir. If anything, he lost a lot of power with time, especially when the Elven Sundering destroyed a lot of the coastal Ilythiir. When Lolth arrived on Toril, she was far weaker than her son. That means that he was probably an intermediate power back before Lolth arrived.

As for Eilistraee, back then she was fighting to prevent Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur from getting a grip on the drow/dark elves, but it was a hard struggle and she and her followers ended up being chased away from Ilythiir by Vhaeraun. She would gain prominence only much later, when Miyeritar was created and she became a patroness of that kingdom.

If you think about it, Lolth is far worse than her children at leading the drow to anything meaningful.

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Edited by - Irennan on 21 Feb 2018 17:41:06
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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  17:47:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Buuuuut... I have a feeling all of this will be answered (canonically) fairly soon.



My only fear is that the FR-side of this story will be entirely retconned with this upcoming Mordenkainen's book. They have already stated that Lolth got all the elves (yes, not only the drow) on her side when she betrayed Corellon, and then all of them except the drow backpeddled on their decision just one moment before it was too late. In our current history, the Seldarine Wars didn't even involve mortal elves in any way.

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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  19:23:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmmm... that actually sounds like some recent (NOT 'Mark canon') musings in that direction. I wouldn't hate it, but I'd have to rethink a couple of things.

It is possible - but unlikely - that Lolth has only three worlds 'under her belt'. It doesn't appear Threnody worshiped or even knew of her. Eberron certainly doesn't, nor does Mystarra. Athas doesn't (AFAIK), and the 'Dark Elves' (Shadow Elves) of Ravenloft were something else entirely (so, no Lolth there either). Most other settings are sub-settings of FR, except for Council of Wyrms and Jakandor. She's in Planscape and Spelljammer, but those are both 'umbrella settings', and since Toril & Oerth are important in both, Lolth has to be in both (so I'm not sure if I can actually count those as 'other settings' she is known in). Nerath (Nentir Vale) was only a thing in 4e, and the ay I am spinning that now (as in, 'homebrew' take) is that it was part of the proto-setting. The world before it was shattered.

Which brings me to my next point - in the 'First World' Lolth makes an appearance, but only in regards to the stuff between Corellon and Gruumsh, AFAIK. In fact, since that conflict appears to have happened post-Shattering (of the LoH), it could very well be that Lolth was never an Estelar - she was part of the 'second wave', at best. That makes her kids 3rd generation Gods. I am willing to concede that perhaps Lolth was the earliest of the 'created Gods' (by Estelar), and therefor predates mortal worship, so its possible she existed pre-Dawn War, but just wasn't important enough to get mentioned (a child?)

So if we go back to what I came up with for the Elven Netbook (Elves of Faerūn) - that a large group of Drow accidentally wandered through the Underways (The Shadowdark) into Oerth's underdark, and settled and spread from there (although, we don't really have evidence of GH drow spreading beyond Erelhei-Cinlu*) - then Lolth may actually be a one-setting deity that got spread to another world without any impetus from her. Further, if Nerath really is the 'proto-setting' (we only saw a small part of it, and it was NEVER called 'a planet') as I believe, then that doesn't really count, because that would just be part of the original world everything originated from (so she would be 'native' to that world, which no longer exists). In fact, I just checked - she was the goddess of lies & spiders there, and only patron of the drow.

She's only been a 'big bad' on Toril (she was barely known on Oerth), and even then, would we even think that without the Drizzt novels? How much interaction has she had with other groups, gods, or the surface? An appearance in the Liriel books on Ruathym, IIRC, and then her poorly thought-out Demon Weave. Thats it. She waited some 35K+ years for her 'Rise of the Drow' and it just fizzled. So much for her being a 'big bad' in D&D. LOL

Corellon literally pointed a finger at her, changed her form, and banished her to the Abyss. I bet he couldn't do that to Cyric, who's been a god all of five minutes by comparison.


* Which is mentioned in an FR-specific source, which is why I think it has a connection to Realms Drow.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2018 19:23:57
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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  00:37:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Corellon literally pointed a finger at her, changed her form, and banished her to the Abyss. I bet he couldn't do that to Cyric, who's been a god all of five minutes by comparison.



Just to note though, Corellon is like the "High God" of the Seldarine Pantheon. I'd imagine he has some special "controls" in place specific to what he can do to Seldarine gods. I'd imagine that Moradin, Annam, Yondalla, Garl Glittergold, Gruumsh, etc... have similar ability to affect gods within their pantheons more than other pantheons.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  01:08:35  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.


-This is using newer lore to explain an older lore thing, but it was revealed in those books that Faerzress' were created specifically to "target" Drow.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  01:38:48  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.


-This is using newer lore to explain an older lore thing, but it was revealed in those books that Faerzress' were created specifically to "target" Drow.



It doesn't, tho. Deep gnomes get similar abilities from faerzress. That newer lore doesn't make much sense and contradicts way too much stuff (like nearly everything from those novels, but w/e). For example, the faerzress predates the arrival of the elves on Toril, and it surely far predates the Descent. No way that it was created by the elves.

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Edited by - Irennan on 22 Feb 2018 01:39:54
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  03:23:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couldn't we spin things so its all works?

Suppose Faerzress is some sort of 'elemental magic' node (and in FR magic = 'life', so basically a type of radiation that would 'add too much life' to something; ie., cancer, etc.). Like other nodes, they're part of the fabric of the universe. Now, Lolth being a god knows some of these inner workings. When she sees what the elves and Seldarine are trying to do to her people, she (and perhaps some of her playmates) tap into what the Elves are doing, and pervert the ritual.

Normal (surface) elves can derive sustenance from sunlight. This is probably more prevalent in their fey ancestry than it is today, but it is still there, almost like a vestigial ability. Elves need sunlight - it even says so in the CBoE. This is why they do not fare well in captivity. So rather then just turning this against them - making sunlight harmful and anathema to them, Lolth twists it so that what sunlight did for them before, the Faerzress - an existing power source - will do for them after the ritual. Now the Drow have become dependent upon the faerzress, in much the same way an addict needs their 'fix'.

Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate to create her own (Demon) Weave - she lost one of the major factors she used to control them (by being stuck in the underdark - in Drow cities - they were forced to live under the matriarchal theocracy that is drow society, with Lolth at the top of the food-chain). Post-Liriel, this is no longer the case, and drow can leave their settlements freely and even go to the surface if they want.

Drizzt was a special case - it has always been assumed by the fanbase that Mielikki used her own power to replace the normal Ranger abilities with ones identical to what he would have lost on the surface. I'm sure he must find it annoying, because now any drow can do the same thing (and he STILL doesn't get Ranger spells LOL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 03:25:25
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