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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  03:07:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was perusing some WoW artwork on the DeviantArt, a little bit ago, and suddenly found myself wondering about something...

Among the elves, there is a subrace with fiendish blood: the fey'ri.

Among the drow, there are the half-demon draegloth.

But that seems to be about it... And that seems a bit odd, to me. If some gold elves decided they needed to strengthen their bloodline with fiendish blood, why isn't this more of a thing among drow, who constantly look for any edge in their endless battles against each other?

So... Where are the drow-fiend crossbreeds? Am I having a brainfart, or perhaps did this get addressed in one of the 102 core sources on drow that I've ignored?

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LordofBones
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  03:36:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a way, the drow themselves are tainted by fiendish power; perhaps that's why there are no fiendish drow subraces. Lolth has tainted the race with Abyssal power, not enough to matter, but just enough that they're "better" than a normal elf.

This is just conjecture, but it's a start. Sometimes that power mutates when exposed to raw demonic essence (i.e. bonking a true tanar'ri), but the fiendish spark Lolth implanted in the drow eventually stabilizes the bloodline.

Edited by - LordofBones on 19 Feb 2018 03:37:55
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  04:42:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fey'ri predate the idea of drow having demon blood... And yet even then, we didn't see any drow tieflings.

Besides, draegloth show the influence of fiendship blood on drow. Something like that's not going to disappear after a single generation.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  04:53:56  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The fey'ri predate the idea of drow having demon blood... And yet even then, we didn't see any drow tieflings.

Besides, draegloth show the influence of fiendship blood on drow. Something like that's not going to disappear after a single generation.



What I'm saying is that Lolth's influence on the drow has 'tainted' the dark elves with fiendish power that stabilizes the bloodline over time. She can lift or alter the restriction at will, which is how you get draegloth, but for the most part drow are sort of like an entire race of elven tieflings. The taint is faint enough that it just doesn't 'ping' spells and other effects that detect fiends.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  05:36:16  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There have been over time in different products (mostly not directly FR, but still D&D) examples of demon/drow hybrids - the draegloth Woolly mentioned being the FR specific one. There were a couple in the various 3rd E alternate systems supplements as well as one during 2nd E from Dragon Magazine with wings. Most of these have been monstrous.

I think the idea of having a balor taint the entire bloodline was pretty lame - especially since drow are not unique to Toril - but that's just me. The whole "some drow are tainted but other are innocent of this original sin" sub plot was not to my liking. Just let the drow be drow and stop worrying about it.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  06:15:14  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

There have been over time in different products (mostly not directly FR, but still D&D) examples of demon/drow hybrids - the draegloth Woolly mentioned being the FR specific one. There were a couple in the various 3rd E alternate systems supplements as well as one during 2nd E from Dragon Magazine with wings. Most of these have been monstrous.

I think the idea of having a balor taint the entire bloodline was pretty lame - especially since drow are not unique to Toril - but that's just me. The whole "some drow are tainted but other are innocent of this original sin" sub plot was not to my liking. Just let the drow be drow and stop worrying about it.



Dezzavold, Fortress of the Drow - A D20 Product

This product had the Drey cousins of drow and "spawn of Nyarleth." Nyarleth is a drow demigod, so I'm not sure this qualifies. Still, the idea is somewhat the same so I included them. I guess the first drey were the drow version of Bhaalspawn :P

It also had "Demonicans" a class that kind of magically became half demon by stealing demonic power. It was kind of half way between pact magic and demon-binding. Interesting idea, actually.

Sheloth, City of the Drow - Another D20 Product

This product had a couple "mutants" - origin unknown, but likely magical or demonic tainting

Plot and Poison A Guidebook to Drow - Green Ronin

This had Drey again
This had Vupdrax (winged drow) - interbred with dire bats
This had Spiderlings - basically a pointless variation on driders

The Tome Of Drow Lore - Again D20

This one has multiple drow subraces who have evolved along different lines: Kanahraun (feral drow), The Lorgreln (iron drow), Pol'Tah (deep drow), Sulethul (aquatic drow)

The Complete Guide to Drow - Natural 20 Press

Burol - a drow mutation - half drow half mind flayer basically
Shaturug - half drow half orc
Urbam - half drow half goblin

Shur - Magical crossbreed of drow and demon.

I'll try to find the ones from Dragon but its been a LONG time since I've read those.
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moonbeast
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  07:03:50  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What with the stories of Drow High Priestesses having ritual sex with fiends/draegloths and such, one would think that drow-fiend hybrid progeny would be more common.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  07:31:39  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are some drow in Planescape, and the artwork depicts a few people who look like drow-ish tiefling-ish sorts. There aren't many drow in Spelljammer, aside from maybe a few random adventurers. This doesn't seem implausible since drow have affinity for magic (and for associating with fiendish things) but they aren't really "nautical" and would probably have an aversion to bright starlight.

The Svartalfaheimr ("black elves") of Norse mythology might be a drow offshoot in some Norse realm somewhere in the Lower Planes.

And to be honest, drow are already somewhat sinister and demonic-looking, while tieflings and cambions can be somewhat elf-looking, there might indeed be drow tieflings (drow'ri?) and drow cambions (daemondrow?) which look to non-drow and non-fiend observers to just be one or the other. I submit a google image search which shows a lot of at-a-glance visual overlap between these species.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  09:36:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There are some drow in Planescape, and the artwork depicts a few people who look like drow-ish tiefling-ish sorts. There aren't many drow in Spelljammer, aside from maybe a few random adventurers. This doesn't seem implausible since drow have affinity for magic (and for associating with fiendish things) but they aren't really "nautical" and would probably have an aversion to bright starlight.




There are drow spelljammers; they use Jade Spider ships, detailed in the War Captain's Companion, if I remember correctly. Drow utterly hate the neogi.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  09:40:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back on topic, though... Weren't the Nar demonbinders using Ilythiiri lore?

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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  10:54:18  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the idea of having a balor taint the entire bloodline was pretty lame - especially since drow are not unique to Toril - but that's just me. The whole "some drow are tainted but other are innocent of this original sin" sub plot was not to my liking. Just let the drow be drow and stop worrying about it.



Yeah, this. Especially when it actually is: nearly all drow are tainted, and a couple of them are not, and when this taint does *absolutely* nothing, since they can still choose whatever life they want. This taint only gains them the dislike of the Seldarine no matter what they do with their lives, and makes the Balor hear their darker thoughts.

It's essentially a useless thing that just introduces the "original sin" in the Realms for whatever reason.


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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  10:57:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Back on topic, though... Weren't the Nar demonbinders using Ilythiiri lore?



IIRC, yes: they got a startup for their practices from lore found in some Ilythiiri ruins.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  16:01:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So we've got plenty of lore establishing that the drow like to play with demons, but oddly, in canon, only the gold elves thought demon blood was a good thing to add to the mix.

That seems rather odd.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  17:13:52  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

But that seems to be about it... And that seems a bit odd, to me. If some gold elves decided they needed to strengthen their bloodline with fiendish blood, why isn't this more of a thing among drow, who constantly look for any edge in their endless battles against each other?

As usual, the question contains most of the answer. The drow are not "threatened species" and don't consider themselves in decline.
Thus it's more of a less noteworthy trade-off for them, perhaps pushed into specialist niches.
Also, the drow kill the obviously misshapen outright (even if they don't mind wings/horns/claws, who knows about hooves), test everyone, and then Lolth tests those who raise high enough.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

and would probably have an aversion to bright starlight.

Why? They aren't really concerned with star/moon light on surface. Now sunlight... there's no night away from planets.
quote:

The Svartalfaheimr ("black elves") of Norse mythology might be a drow offshoot in some Norse realm somewhere in the Lower Planes.

Upper (Ysgard). The home realm of guess who.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


There are drow spelljammers; they use Jade Spider ships, detailed in the War Captain's Companion, if I remember correctly.

And anything on which they can stick a darkened dome and call it a day.
quote:
Drow utterly hate the neogi.

IIRC it varies, there were cases of working together. When they can afford to be picky, perhaps it's a safe bet that spider-loving drow loathe Neogi because those are amazingly ugly parodies on spiders and reminds them of driders, which cannot improve their already nasty attitude, spider-hating drow because these are half-spidery and all vile, and the rest because well, Neogi being Neogi, what you can do? When not, the drow probably weren't particularly happy about it - but then, they aren't particularly happy about illithids either.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So we've got plenty of lore establishing that the drow like to play with demons, but oddly, in canon, only the gold elves thought demon blood was a good thing to add to the mix.
That seems rather odd.

Maybe the "main" creature having natural magic resistance and SLA somehow makes lesser bloodlines less physically pronounced (beyond hair/eyes/slightly odd shape)?

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Ayrik
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  17:35:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gold elves don't languish under the vengefully fatal yoke of Lolth. She (and her priestesses) might simply not permit any fiend-blooded drow to challenge the power of her yochlols and other demonic minions.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  18:19:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

But that seems to be about it... And that seems a bit odd, to me. If some gold elves decided they needed to strengthen their bloodline with fiendish blood, why isn't this more of a thing among drow, who constantly look for any edge in their endless battles against each other?

As usual, the question contains most of the answer. The drow are not "threatened species" and don't consider themselves in decline.
Thus it's more of a less noteworthy trade-off for them, perhaps pushed into specialist niches.
Also, the drow kill the obviously misshapen outright (even if they don't mind wings/horns/claws, who knows about hooves), test everyone, and then Lolth tests those who raise high enough.


Yeah, but they are constantly looking for any edge against other drow families, and it's considered a blessing from Lolth to have a draegloth in the family.

So they've got ample reason to want to go that route, and the draegloth show they've no aversion to doing so. There's a history of working with demons, too...

Unless there is some specific mandate from Lolth that says otherwise, then there's really no reason why there shouldn't be drow'ri.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


There are drow spelljammers; they use Jade Spider ships, detailed in the War Captain's Companion, if I remember correctly.

And anything on which they can stick a darkened dome and call it a day.
quote:
Drow utterly hate the neogi.

IIRC it varies, there were cases of working together. When they can afford to be picky, perhaps it's a safe bet that spider-loving drow loathe Neogi because those are amazingly ugly parodies on spiders and reminds them of driders, which cannot improve their already nasty attitude, spider-hating drow because these are half-spidery and all vile, and the rest because well, Neogi being Neogi, what you can do? When not, the drow probably weren't particularly happy about it - but then, they aren't particularly happy about illithids either.


I don't recall any of that... The War Captain's Companion says point blank that the drow utterly hate the neogi.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So we've got plenty of lore establishing that the drow like to play with demons, but oddly, in canon, only the gold elves thought demon blood was a good thing to add to the mix.
That seems rather odd.

Maybe the "main" creature having natural magic resistance and SLA somehow makes lesser bloodlines less physically pronounced (beyond hair/eyes/slightly odd shape)?



I dunno. The existence of draegloth shows it's possible.

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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  19:00:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

In a way, the drow themselves are tainted by fiendish power; perhaps that's why there are no fiendish drow subraces. Lolth has tainted the race with Abyssal power, not enough to matter, but just enough that they're "better" than a normal elf.

This is just conjecture, but it's a start. Sometimes that power mutates when exposed to raw demonic essence (i.e. bonking a true tanar'ri), but the fiendish spark Lolth implanted in the drow eventually stabilizes the bloodline.
THIS is brilliant.

Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' when they became drow, thus, they are all tainted by her. Of course, just because she was a demon doesn't make her Tanar'ri (see other thread LOL). So like her, they are Fey with a 'fiendish corruption' (so I guess fiendtouched?) Something like that - perhaps that is how she gave them their innate abilities.

In fact, I would connect the two. We know the Descent Curse (which the Drow call "Lolth's Blessing") 'got away from' the Elven High Magic users, as well as the Seldarine that power-boosted the ritual. I always found it odd that Corellon - a god of Magic far older than Mystryl - lost control like that - EPIC fail. So what if Lolth (and maybe some of her 'Dark Seldarine' buddies) also joined the ritual, without the others knowing? infused it with something else entirely? Thus, Corellon's Curse became Lolth's Blessing. She literally 'tainted' their ritual with Abysstuff, which made them fiendtouched. So, like 1% fiend. Then, after she does her own, connected ritual, the drow are all 'hooked' to her, and she stops being a Demon Queen and becomes a god(dess).

And maybe the reason why they DON'T mix with fiends too often is because it awakens their fiendish nature. Unlike Tieflings, they'd be more than half (51%?), and would then become true demons, like the Draegloth. Drow - for the most part - still want to have drow children. they still feel all other forms are 'imperfections'. They would purposely mate with fiends on occasion just to create servitors like the Dreagloths, but they would still want to have drow children as well. Unlike the Fey'ri, they would be more than half and their fiendish nature (and appearance) would become dominant.

Which makes me now think... what if that DID happen? What if one settlement of drow decided to do this, and the next generation of Tiefling-Drow (drowlings?) were more demonic than drow, and eventually slew their parents and took over? Then they would have been making plans to do the same to all the other drow cities over time. The drow catch wind of this, and in an uncharacteristic show of solidarity, send a combined force to wipe them all out. This may have happened thousands of years ago.

Thus, strangely enough, this could be one of the few things the Drow consider taboo - to dilute their bloodline even further. Draegloths are an exception, as I've said, because part of their creation ensures their being 'bound' to their mother, permanently. Do we know what kind of fiend the father is? What if it was a devil?

I think it would be kind of cool to say that because 'fairy elves' interbreed with demons (Fey'ri), the drow only do so now with devils, to offset their already chaotic nature. Consorting with demons could cause a new generation of 'Drowlings', and they don't want hat.

Just some random (homebrew) thoughts. I really LOVE the 'Drow are already fiend-touched' thing. Nice call.

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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2018 19:02:24
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  19:16:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' when they became drow, thus, they are all tainted by her.



IIRC, Lolth was already a goddess again when the Ilythiiri were cursed. She was already part of the Dark Seldarine. The exact way that she regained her divinity is not really clear AFAIK, tho.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  22:04:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragon 244 from 1998 had "The Fainil" which were drow on the planet of Tir that bred with Tanar'ri and produced a new race of themselves with bat wings. They had problems when fighting on the ground a bit, can cast while flying, and are immune to electricity. They are a male dominant society, but women still tend to be the clerics. They live in mountains but are still affected by sunlight. They also don't like to live belowground. They have 120 ft infravision. They tend to be taller than drow.

I was originally looking into this race as followers of Camazotz (the canon lord of bats in Forgotten Realms), and I was going to include the bainligor race as well, as a kind of servant race of theirs. They would be interlopers who don't interact with the rest of the elves in the world. Thus why noone knows of them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Feb 2018 22:20:38
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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  22:11:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Back on topic, though... Weren't the Nar demonbinders using Ilythiiri lore?



I wouldn't necessarily say Ilythiiri lore. I would say that both groups were involved with Dun-Tharos/Narathmault.... which was supposedly a place of great evil BEFORE the drow went there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Lord Karsus
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-Slightly on topic, but when I "left", I know literally nothing had been done regarding the newly-established Dark Elves vis-a-vis the Lady Penitent trilogy. Has any other 4e or 5e product picked up on this since?

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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  00:11:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Slightly on topic, but when I "left", I know literally nothing had been done regarding the newly-established Dark Elves vis-a-vis the Lady Penitent trilogy. Has any other 4e or 5e product picked up on this since?



No, the transformed drow have only been fully ignored, but Eilistraee is back now, and she and her followers are drow. In all honesty, tho, only a few hundreds of drow were transformed, according to what it is said in those books. Eilistraee's followers are at least a few thousands, being her a lesser power. It follows that not many were transformed and that therefore the ritual didn't go as planned by Q'arlynd.

It's much better like that, as far as I'm concerned. Eilistraee has *never* wanted or had anything to do with changing the race of the drow or w/e. She is kinda the contrary of that, being her about being "one of them".

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Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 00:14:09
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  01:17:59  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Dragon 244 from 1998 had "The Fainil" which were drow on the planet of Tir that bred with Tanar'ri and produced a new race of themselves with bat wings. They had problems when fighting on the ground a bit, can cast while flying, and are immune to electricity. They are a male dominant society, but women still tend to be the clerics. They live in mountains but are still affected by sunlight. They also don't like to live belowground. They have 120 ft infravision. They tend to be taller than drow.

I was originally looking into this race as followers of Camazotz (the canon lord of bats in Forgotten Realms), and I was going to include the bainligor race as well, as a kind of servant race of theirs. They would be interlopers who don't interact with the rest of the elves in the world. Thus why noone knows of them.




Yep, that is the one that I could not remember exactly. ThX for finding it.
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TomCosta
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  01:36:42  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was always under the impression that the drow got their innate abilities from the influence of the balor Wendonai (at the urging of Lolth).
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Irennan
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  01:41:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I was always under the impression that the drow got their innate abilities from the influence of the balor Wendonai (at the urging of Lolth).



They're a side effect of the faerzress, that I know. It's the whole reason why they used to lose their abilities if they spent too much time away from the Underdark (before Liriel did her thing, that is).

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Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 01:42:06
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  03:02:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I was always under the impression that the drow got their innate abilities from the influence of the balor Wendonai (at the urging of Lolth).



They're a side effect of the faerzress, that I know. It's the whole reason why they used to lose their abilities if they spent too much time away from the Underdark (before Liriel did her thing, that is).



Ultimately both may be true. After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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