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 Confirmed by WOTC: Graz'zt was originally a devil
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Tigon
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  09:08:56  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know

Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally

https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s

Tigon
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Further investigation found this to be stated in the 4th edition Manual of the Planes on page 130

"Grazízt was once a devil and a trusted advisor to Asmodeus, who charged Grazízt with invading the Abyss and seizing the evil seed that created it (see ďThe Birth of the AbyssĒ sidebar, Monster Manual, page 52). Grazíztís initial invasion was successful, and he managed to seize three layers of the Abyss. However, pressure from Orcus and Demogorgon stalled Grazíztís descent toward the heart of evil. Grazízt eventually rejected his heritage and turned the conquered territory into his own kingdom. Today, he is one of the most powerful demon princes. And whether he truly spurned the Nine Hells or is secretly colluding with Asmodeus is known only to Grazízt. Regardless, that doesnít preclude a change of allegiances later."
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  20:09:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.

AD&D for me!
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Kentinal
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  21:05:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Blink* Well with polymorph a being can turn themselves into a different race. This sounds a bit extreme.

I do recall from first Edition that polymorph other could result in perment change. I do not recall any Edition that polymorph self did so. *shrugs*

In the end of things of course mere mortals never can know or understand all the powers of higher powers.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Markustay
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  22:33:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This has been the case since 4e came out - this is an OLD argument.

Graz'zt ISN'T anything. Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He predates the concept of devils & demons. Everything else is mortal supposition.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  22:38:51  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, they said this years and years ago...I ignored it then and I'm ignoring it now.

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Delwa
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:49:54  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:59:08  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said in the other thread - just one more idiotic 4th E thing. Bad writing from bad writers thinking they know more about D&D the the creator of D&D. Ignore this and all the rest of their stupidity.
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redking
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:59:31  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.

These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri.

Edited by - redking on 17 Feb 2018 02:00:42
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  02:01:19  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.



Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  03:28:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.



Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy.



If we give him a Snickers, does he revert to being Curious George?

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  04:06:22  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only if its an enchanted +6 snickers with extra nugat.
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Markustay
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USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  05:51:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought his mom was an Orangutan and his dad was an Ettin.

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now.
As I said earlier, Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He's 'his own thing'. He predates the concept of 'races', and demons & devils.

quote:
Originally posted by redking

In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.

These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri.
Which not only ties into exactly what I just said above, but it also shoe-horns nicely with my idea that Graz'zt is unique, or part of a 'group of uniques' (now thats and oxymoron if I ever heard one... like a 'religion of agnostics').

Graz'zt's momma was an Obyrith. We don't even know who his father was, or if he even HAD a father (because lord know how procreation worked in the 'Otherverse'). His mother is/was Pale Night, a unique creature in her own right, and not form this (D&D) universe. Graz'zt was NEVER a Tanar'ri, nor was he ever a Baatezu ('native' races to their respective planes). For a time he was a devil, and then he became a demon, but those are JUST ADDRESSES.

For example, I am an American. I am also 'of northern European decent'. So although I live in America, I am NOT a 'Native American'. You CAN BE a demon and NOT be a Tanar'ri, and you CAN BE a devil without being a Baatezu. In fact, in the Baatezu's case, they're not even 'aboriginal' - the Baatorans were. Another good example is Lolth - she was a Dark Elf (or some sort archfey that resembled Dark Elves), she was NEVER a Tanar'ri... yet she was a 'demon queen'. It just tells us where they live, that's all. By the same exact token, we could have been calling Tiamat a 'devil' all along (but for whatever reason, we give dragons a pass on all that).

I LOVE this piece of lore that Graz'zt was part of some other group living in lower planes, that the other groups shunned, because that sounds precisely how I am picturing the 'children of the Obyriths', who would have been among the 'first gods' (not the Elder Gods, or Estelar - they were 'second generation' beings born of this universe. For all we know, there could even be a few celestial counted among that 'odd group'.

And since the (4e) Obyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff", maybe we can repurpose the Baeraloths title? What if that group of 'unfathomable' beings are the hybrids? Creatures born of the Obyriths but of this universe? It probably would have worked-out better the other way around, but I don't know if that's doable within the 4e lore (then again, this craps on that lore nearly as much, so we could flip it, and then say Graz'zt is an Obyrith... but then we'd have to respin Pale Night as Baernaloth, and I doubt anyone would like that).

Thus, I would keep the Obyriths as the 'unfathomable creature form a another universe', and have the Baernaloths be their 'children'. And although that turns on some 2e lore, it works within the newer 4e framework, and we could always chalk it up to 'fiendish lying' (the Baernaloths bragged, and the Obyriths could care less).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 06:07:19
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  16:43:37  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baernaloths do exist in 4e, though they are only briefly mentioned in relation to their "purported" service to Anthraxus (renamed Phraxas by an editor). See Demonomicon sourcebook.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  01:27:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, but Obyriths got 'a lot of their stuff', so now we need to repsin the baernaloths.

So if we say that the Baernaloths are some truly ancient group - not Obyriths but related to them - that predate demons and devils (all of which I believe held true pre-4e), then its entirely possible we can call these unknown beings that Graz'zt was apart of originally (from Gary Gygax's own works), the Baernaloths. Not exactly what they were before, but as I said, the Obyriths stole some of their thunder (they became the pre-universe BBG's), and by making them related (native-born version of the Obyrith), they get to steal a little bit of that back.

And since I think Araushnee was Graz'zr's sister, she gets to be a Baernloth too.
(my homebrew cosmology, of course).

I'd love to say that she was the child of Pale Nigh and Corellon, but then things would get a bit 'icky' (although, if you procreate with something you created, is that really incest? Its not like these cosmic-level beings are using physical bodies for any of this stuff). Then again, I personally find that Corellon is already 'creepy' enough. Using Gruumsh would just make Corellon her uncle, which is nearly as bad. Plus, I have other plans for Gruumsh.

I guess I'll have to repurpose the lore I did for Shar, since Shar's story had to change as well. I had Shar as the daughter of Erebus, the 'Guardian of the Veil' (between universes), so now instead I could say Araushnee was the daughter of Erebus (an Eternal) and Pale Night.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Razz
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  22:37:01  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.

Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.
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cpthero2
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Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  15:46:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Razz,

I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Razz

This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.

Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31582 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  17:27:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TSR used to employ a "traffic cop" to try to maintain continuity. That wasn't his sole responsibility, but it was one of his duties.

They later decided they didn't need a traffic cop; this very conveniently coincided with the release of 3E, when they began casually disregarding past lore and creating retcons on a whim.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Razz,

I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Razz

This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.

Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.




Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Brimstone
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Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  18:14:26  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  18:26:20  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I didn't realize that: very interesting. Yes, it is ironic that it all went away at that 3rd edition time, isn't it? This is WotC's MO afterall.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

TSR used to employ a "traffic cop" to try to maintain continuity. That wasn't his sole responsibility, but it was one of his duties.

They later decided they didn't need a traffic cop; this very conveniently coincided with the release of 3E, when they began casually disregarding past lore and creating retcons on a whim.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Razz,

I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Razz

This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.

Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.






Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  18:27:42  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Brimstone,

Oh gods, that must have lasted like a good bull ride in time! Ed would have #REKT them in a profoundly epic, and destructive manner with the insanity that have going on in reinventing the canon of the Realms in the most 5th grade way imaginable.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted...


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31582 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  21:22:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted...



If they did say that, they either changed their minds, or simply decided to ignore him.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  22:23:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AFAIK, that lasted the same amount of time the novels lasted in 5e (so, like nothing...)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopherís path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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The Masked Mage
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USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2018 :  02:23:54  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before.
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Brimstone
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Posted - 17 Oct 2018 :  17:10:13  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before.



And we will gripe about it again in the not so near future!

Sometimes I think WotC is like that abusive lover. The lover that will promise the Sun, The Tears of Selune, and the Stars, to get us back. Only to revert to his old ways when the design crew that made those promises, are all laid off, and a new group of designers take over and are like, why did they do this, this, and this, when this, this, and this is better? Then after 4 or 5 years when their jobs are on the line, "oh Realms fans that we ignored or blew off, please come back, we promise to make it right"!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 17 Oct 2018 17:14:44
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2018 :  13:28:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Brimstone,

You could not have said it better. That pretty much encapsulates the reality of how WotC functions. To drop one more bit in there, we do enable the upper management who are the only legacy management usually, in between design teams. The design teams do exactly as you identified, and when they get laid off, etc., and upper management hires new employees to again screw it all up, they come back panhandling for the dollars at our doorsteps once more. The ugly truth is that we should vote with our dollars, but if enough customers did so to catch their attention, drop their sales enough for Hasbro to notice, they would likely just sell it off, or shelve it as an asset product line and it would just be done. The way WotC handles its product lines and assets is stunningly dysfunctional.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before.



And we will gripe about it again in the not so near future!

Sometimes I think WotC is like that abusive lover. The lover that will promise the Sun, The Tears of Selune, and the Stars, to get us back. Only to revert to his old ways when the design crew that made those promises, are all laid off, and a new group of designers take over and are like, why did they do this, this, and this, when this, this, and this is better? Then after 4 or 5 years when their jobs are on the line, "oh Realms fans that we ignored or blew off, please come back, we promise to make it right"!


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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