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 Confirmed by WOTC: Graz'zt was originally a devil
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Tigon
Seeker

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  09:08:56  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know

Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally

https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s

Tigon
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USA
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Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  10:54:01  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Further investigation found this to be stated in the 4th edition Manual of the Planes on page 130

"Grazízt was once a devil and a trusted advisor to Asmodeus, who charged Grazízt with invading the Abyss and seizing the evil seed that created it (see ďThe Birth of the AbyssĒ sidebar, Monster Manual, page 52). Grazíztís initial invasion was successful, and he managed to seize three layers of the Abyss. However, pressure from Orcus and Demogorgon stalled Grazíztís descent toward the heart of evil. Grazízt eventually rejected his heritage and turned the conquered territory into his own kingdom. Today, he is one of the most powerful demon princes. And whether he truly spurned the Nine Hells or is secretly colluding with Asmodeus is known only to Grazízt. Regardless, that doesnít preclude a change of allegiances later."
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

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3593 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  20:09:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.

AD&D for me!
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4348 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  21:05:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Blink* Well with polymorph a being can turn themselves into a different race. This sounds a bit extreme.

I do recall from first Edition that polymorph other could result in perment change. I do not recall any Edition that polymorph self did so. *shrugs*

In the end of things of course mere mortals never can know or understand all the powers of higher powers.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  22:33:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This has been the case since 4e came out - this is an OLD argument.

Graz'zt ISN'T anything. Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He predates the concept of devils & demons. Everything else is mortal supposition.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  22:38:51  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, they said this years and years ago...I ignored it then and I'm ignoring it now.

AD&D for me!
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:49:54  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1841 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:59:08  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said in the other thread - just one more idiotic 4th E thing. Bad writing from bad writers thinking they know more about D&D the the creator of D&D. Ignore this and all the rest of their stupidity.
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redking
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  01:59:31  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.

These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri.

Edited by - redking on 17 Feb 2018 02:00:42
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  02:01:19  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.



Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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31232 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  03:28:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.



Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy.



If we give him a Snickers, does he revert to being Curious George?

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

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1841 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  04:06:22  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only if its an enchanted +6 snickers with extra nugat.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  05:51:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought his mom was an Orangutan and his dad was an Ettin.

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now.
As I said earlier, Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He's 'his own thing'. He predates the concept of 'races', and demons & devils.

quote:
Originally posted by redking

In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.

These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri.
Which not only ties into exactly what I just said above, but it also shoe-horns nicely with my idea that Graz'zt is unique, or part of a 'group of uniques' (now thats and oxymoron if I ever heard one... like a 'religion of agnostics').

Graz'zt's momma was an Obyrith. We don't even know who his father was, or if he even HAD a father (because lord know how procreation worked in the 'Otherverse'). His mother is/was Pale Night, a unique creature in her own right, and not form this (D&D) universe. Graz'zt was NEVER a Tanar'ri, nor was he ever a Baatezu ('native' races to their respective planes). For a time he was a devil, and then he became a demon, but those are JUST ADDRESSES.

For example, I am an American. I am also 'of northern European decent'. So although I live in America, I am NOT a 'Native American'. You CAN BE a demon and NOT be a Tanar'ri, and you CAN BE a devil without being a Baatezu. In fact, in the Baatezu's case, they're not even 'aboriginal' - the Baatorans were. Another good example is Lolth - she was a Dark Elf (or some sort archfey that resembled Dark Elves), she was NEVER a Tanar'ri... yet she was a 'demon queen'. It just tells us where they live, that's all. By the same exact token, we could have been calling Tiamat a 'devil' all along (but for whatever reason, we give dragons a pass on all that).

I LOVE this piece of lore that Graz'zt was part of some other group living in lower planes, that the other groups shunned, because that sounds precisely how I am picturing the 'children of the Obyriths', who would have been among the 'first gods' (not the Elder Gods, or Estelar - they were 'second generation' beings born of this universe. For all we know, there could even be a few celestial counted among that 'odd group'.

And since the (4e) Obyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff", maybe we can repurpose the Baeraloths title? What if that group of 'unfathomable' beings are the hybrids? Creatures born of the Obyriths but of this universe? It probably would have worked-out better the other way around, but I don't know if that's doable within the 4e lore (then again, this craps on that lore nearly as much, so we could flip it, and then say Graz'zt is an Obyrith... but then we'd have to respin Pale Night as Baernaloth, and I doubt anyone would like that).

Thus, I would keep the Obyriths as the 'unfathomable creature form a another universe', and have the Baernaloths be their 'children'. And although that turns on some 2e lore, it works within the newer 4e framework, and we could always chalk it up to 'fiendish lying' (the Baernaloths bragged, and the Obyriths could care less).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 06:07:19
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  16:43:37  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baernaloths do exist in 4e, though they are only briefly mentioned in relation to their "purported" service to Anthraxus (renamed Phraxas by an editor). See Demonomicon sourcebook.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  01:27:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, but Obyriths got 'a lot of their stuff', so now we need to repsin the baernaloths.

So if we say that the Baernaloths are some truly ancient group - not Obyriths but related to them - that predate demons and devils (all of which I believe held true pre-4e), then its entirely possible we can call these unknown beings that Graz'zt was apart of originally (from Gary Gygax's own works), the Baernaloths. Not exactly what they were before, but as I said, the Obyriths stole some of their thunder (they became the pre-universe BBG's), and by making them related (native-born version of the Obyrith), they get to steal a little bit of that back.

And since I think Araushnee was Graz'zr's sister, she gets to be a Baernloth too.
(my homebrew cosmology, of course).

I'd love to say that she was the child of Pale Nigh and Corellon, but then things would get a bit 'icky' (although, if you procreate with something you created, is that really incest? Its not like these cosmic-level beings are using physical bodies for any of this stuff). Then again, I personally find that Corellon is already 'creepy' enough. Using Gruumsh would just make Corellon her uncle, which is nearly as bad. Plus, I have other plans for Gruumsh.

I guess I'll have to repurpose the lore I did for Shar, since Shar's story had to change as well. I had Shar as the daughter of Erebus, the 'Guardian of the Veil' (between universes), so now instead I could say Araushnee was the daughter of Erebus (an Eternal) and Pale Night.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
716 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  22:37:01  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.

Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.
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