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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 18:27:45
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| ^That is kind of what I was getting at, and why I said "spreading essence". I don't particularly like the "ball of energy" concept, either, I'm just throwing it out there. I was mostly agreeing with you, just expanding on my own thoughts. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 19:23:10
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Hence my inclusion of the possibility of an aspect/avatar 'going rogue'. As part of our Orc musings in another thread, sometimes aspects have drifted so far away from their 'core essence' that they may as well be completely different gods. In that thread, I was trying to reconcile the 4e lore* that Gruumsh is Talos, by saying Talos was an aspect of Gruumsh - an Elder God - that had courted relationships with a LOT of non-goblinoids, and thus, lost quite a bit of his 'Gruumshiness'. Then another aspect of Gruumsh - a truer aspect - comes through during the Orcgate wars, and starts plotting against the aspect that he felt 'went astray' (and eventually subsumes that other aspect). Thus, Gruumsh & Talos were both two separate entities, and yet, the same being as well.
A great deal of what I put forth here is just me using this place as a 'sounding board' for stuff that I work-out in my own head, and has absolutely nothing to do with running games in The Realms. To mortals, it doesn't really matter if two gods are really just different aspects of an even greater being, because it doesn't change the rules regarding them. It's more of a 'deeper secrets' thing that DMs who like to run more cerebral games (players discovering clues to these secrets) might be able to play with. Like everything else, they're just 'toys in the toybox', and you can play with them if you want, or just ignore them. It really doesn't matter at all.
But since 4e went with this whole 'merging thing' - something I had personally been doing for years anyway - and its now considered canon in 5e (even if it was 'retconned', it was done-so in game, which means even the retcon is known and canon... in setting. I like it mostly because its a great way to explain inconsistencies from setting to setting, in regards to these gods, and also between editions. For example, maybe on some worlds Gruumsh is lawful evil, and on others, he is chaotic evil. Both can exist, because aspects develop their own personalities and quirks over time. This is actually nothing new for D&D - I believe it was in 1e or 2e where I was first introduced to the concept of 'the Achtype' (it isn't mine - it comes straight out of a sourebook). Now, looking back through the filter of 6 editions (7 if you include Chainmail), most of these 'Elder Gods' we started seeing in 4e are these theoretical 'archtypes' which already existed in D&D, but we just never saw them before (because their involvement in matters goes back to before the Crystal Spheres - and the need for aspects - were created). This is also why I feel like Nerath is just a regional name for The First World (the 'Midgard' of my cosmology). Things like pantheons and alignment should not even matter to such beings, because they are form before any of that were things.
I don't try and roll 'all the gods together' to simplify things - quite the contrary. What I do gets very complicated - merging all the lore, myths, & religions together into something approaching a cohesive whole. Its not meant to rock anyone's boat, and like I said, its also NOT meant to be applied 'in game'. Add to that all these D&D editions where they keep changing stuff and it gets so much worse. I am just trying to provide a model that we can apply to all these changes and differences and have it still all make sense in a meta-gaming sort of way. And in that regard, not only is no religion/cult 'getting it wrong', but neither is any DM, or groups of players. There is no 'wrong', because everything is based upon mortal beliefs and preconceptions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 00:25:55 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 19:50:58
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I like to figure out "where things come from", too, whether mortals in game know about it or not. That is, after all, the point of these discussions. We diverge from what the mortals know LOL. This is why I'm saying the "balls of energy" isn't impossible, but the "spreading essence" is also possible. The two ideas are similar in concept, but different in practice and "origin story".
In 4e, they tried to make certain deities aspects of each other (like Gruumsh and Talos) in order to simplify things, however, I will concur that in a way, that makes things more complicated, because then you have to figure out why they are aspects/where they come from/etc. But that seems to have retconned in 5e, for which I am personally glad for. Markustay, I didn't mean to imply your ideas were simple--they aren't. They are intricate and complex. What I meant when I said making the deities aspects of each other or originating from balls of energy (or whatever you want to call them) simplifies things is that essentially puts the deities into these boxes, rather than allowing for different origins (other than for individual "aspects" or "branches" of that deity). However, with multispheric deities (and by that I mean deities who exist on multiple planes/worlds), I acknowledge that there has to be an "origin point". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 23:39:40
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I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.
Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this? |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 01:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.
Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?
You'll have to ask how all 4e deities fit into this, considering that Ioun is in the same boat. Both Boccob and Nerull are around in 5e. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 18:12:38
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Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.
The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.
The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book.
It could be that the Raven Queen is really only for default, Nerath settings, maybe some others, and is substituted for by other Gods/Goddesses and other cosmic beings in other settings.
I think given the very different Shadar Kai history in FR compared to Nerath or settings for whom the Shadar Kai are a blank slate, it would be harder to fit the Raven Queen into the setting |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:55:23
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"After the Spellplague of 1385 DR, some shadovar humans and the children they gave birth to, as well as other humans across Toril that were somehow tied to the Shadowfell, were affected by the Spellplague and transformed into shade-like creatures.[6][2] Some people associated the birth of this new race with the decline of the krinth, as the numbers of the latter dwindled while those of the "newborn" race thrived. Some scholars among the Netherese speculated that those events where related, and that somehow the shadar-kai were evolved forms of the failed krinth.[2]
To avoid chaos among the shadovar, Prince Rivalen Tanthul said that they had been blessed by Shar, and called them "shadar-kai" (meaning "Those of Shadow's Gift", in the ancient Netherese language).[2] Prince Rivalen even devised a ritual to change a human into a shadar-kai.[7]
Shadar-kai became a race unto themselves in the generations that followed the Spellplague.[2] Some shadar-kai remained in Netheril, while others, mostly those that weren't originally shadovar, went to the Shadowfell, the Underdark, or to live across the lands of Toril.[5]" so not all Shadar Kai come from the Netherese, I think they are just the largest source and the ones who crested the ritual to create more Shadar Kai.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 02:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.
The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book.
It could be that the Raven Queen is really only for default, Nerath settings, maybe some others, and is substituted for by other Gods/Goddesses and other cosmic beings in other settings.
I think given the very different Shadar Kai history in FR compared to Nerath or settings for whom the Shadar Kai are a blank slate, it would be harder to fit the Raven Queen into the setting
The Raven Queen is not a goddess in 5e. Mike Mearls said that, while in some worlds (including Nentir Vale) she is revered as a god, she is not actually a god.
She is more like the Lady of Pain. Mike Mearls even plays with the parallelism of the two. "Both are as powerful, or even more powerful, than gods, yet are trapped within their respective planes" (paraphrased).
So, while the Raven Queen may be now part of canon Realms, she will be not there in her quality as a goddess. Just as some patron for warlocks and that stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 12:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.
Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?
Agreed, that's where I'm taking it. Gruumsh/Talos was simply Gruumsh taking advantage of Talos going away.
the Raven Queen... I'd personally like to equate her to Ereshkigal BECAUSE if you look at pictures of both, they're alike. I'd also like to equate her to Kiaransalee. Personally, I'd like to equate all of THAT to this thing where she forgets who she is, and basically that causes some kind of severing of the greater goddess into "aspects". So, similar to how Lolth is shown at the end of the Spider Queen novels as having like 8 or so entities that "make her up".... so should "the Raven Queen"/Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal... and all of these should NOW be treated as separate entities who may even work against each other.... and may need to consume each other.... in fact very much like the things that were being described in the "sidebars" for the Spider Queen books wherein Lolth was "separated" into "hundreds" of spiders that were consuming each other for dominance. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 12:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also use the Rockseer elves from Night Below - the live under the High Moor (remnants of the Green Elves of Miyeritar who followed their dark elven cousins below after the disaster).
How could they "follow" if the Descent happened long after (and in part due to) Dark Disaster?
Also, how would they survive all this time?..
quote:
I've even managed to tweak my maps to to sync-up perfectly with the ones in that product (it fits perfectly just to the right {east} of the the NE corner of the High Moor). When you scale it down, its a very tiny area compared to Faerûn.
...between Ched Nasad, Eryndlyn and Reeshov, the latter being formerly illithid(!) city of Suruptik?
Not exactly a forgotten, out-of-the-way area. Sounds more like a place several groups would like to have combed with use of divinations and psionics until there are no surprises left. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 19:53:48
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| Btw does anyone think that Shadar Kai looking old in the Shadowfell and young because of "glamours" else where is incredibly stupid. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 21:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Btw does anyone think that Shadar Kai looking old in the Shadowfell and young because of "glamours" else where is incredibly stupid.
I've never liked shadar-kai, period. To me, they were just another part of that whole "shadows are kewl!" shtick that WotC drove into the ground back in 3E.
It also didn't help that the name shadar-kai was obviously meant to some sort of kewl shadow reference. "Hey, here's a shadow race whose name makes you think of shadows! Kewl, huh?" |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2019 : 01:04:55
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At first I also din't liked shadar-kai but then I had a use for such a race in game and begun to think about it more. Right now I have a race of shadow-tainted elves who live in Shadow Plane's forests. They use their taint to hide from enemies and use cold iron piercings to fight off Shar's whispers (causing themselves pain to dumb this sensation). Most of them worship elven gods, mostly Fenmarel but there are fallen ones who embraced Shar.
I am considering another spin as I have spotted that drow albino's are called Szarkai which is suspiciously close to Shadar-Kai. If those are actually shadow-tainted drow they could worship Vhaerun (btw they have very close tenets those two...and symbol).
Krinth are said to be human-shadow demon crossbreed (cambion) and I do not see a reason to change that. |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2022 : 02:55:07
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Based on the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure I always thought Shadar-Kai were elves that Retreated into the Shadow Plane, in somewhat of a dark reflection of the Star Elves (Adamantine could then be their assigned metal to mirror the Mithral Elves). Their stat block has elven as a language as well as sylvan and page 151 of the adventure module mentions Mythal-worthy elven ruins in the Vast Swamp (Which fits with the mention of ruined cities mentioned page 75 of dragon nr. 337). They might have taken to call themselves Shil'Tel-Quessir.
I also find it a very striking coincidence that the elven god of death Naralis Analor's symbol is a white dove... quite the opposite of a Black Raven. Corellon's poetic justice? |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Edited by - Duneth Despana on 30 May 2022 10:55:59 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2022 : 23:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
In MGTF, the new book coming out in May, the Shadar Kai are going to be an Elven subrace, harking back to their original Fey origin in 3.5.
But this conflicits with major FR lore which has them as descendants of humans in the Shadowfell.
In my games Canon, Shadar-Kai represent a people of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. In some cases, they are elves and follow the Raven Queen (who's own origin is far different that what's been printed) in others, they're more humanoid in appearance (as they look in 4E) and have pretty much abandoned the Raven Queen in favor of Shar and Netherese dominance. Though not all fey Shadar-Kai follow RQ, some do their own thing or follow any number of dark gods and ancient evils, even Orcus.
So should a player want to be a Shadar-Kai in 5E, they'd have to choose which kind they want to be. Similar to Tieflings, in which some were planartouched beings from old (2e/3e) and some where Asmodai followers (4E). |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2022 : 23:56:36
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The 3pp Ulraunt’s guide to the Shadowfell has 5e rules for the human-descended shadar-kai on page 123.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
In MGTF, the new book coming out in May, the Shadar Kai are going to be an Elven subrace, harking back to their original Fey origin in 3.5.
But this conflicits with major FR lore which has them as descendants of humans in the Shadowfell.
In my games Canon, Shadar-Kai represent a people of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. In some cases, they are elves and follow the Raven Queen (who's own origin is far different that what's been printed) in others, they're more humanoid in appearance (as they look in 4E) and have pretty much abandoned the Raven Queen in favor of Shar and Netherese dominance. Though not all fey Shadar-Kai follow RQ, some do their own thing or follow any number of dark gods and ancient evils, even Orcus.
So should a player want to be a Shadar-Kai in 5E, they'd have to choose which kind they want to be. Similar to Tieflings, in which some were planartouched beings from old (2e/3e) and some where Asmodai followers (4E).
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« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 03:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
The 3pp Ulraunt’s guide to the Shadowfell has 5e rules for the human-descended shadar-kai on page 123.
Hm, I didn't know about this supplement. Definitely will have to check it out. Thanks!  |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2022 : 02:41:49
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| Im sure the shadar-kai predate 3e (though I could be wrong). The story goes that the Raven Queen was trying to put a stop to the ware between Aurashnee (Lolth) and the Seldarine/Corellon. She enacted a great ritual (what I assume was elven high magic). Someone interfered, and she and her followers became tied to the Plane of Shadow (now called the Shadowfel). Her followers were tied directly to her so that, when they die, they are reincarnated in the shadow plane with her. This story is told in an issue of Dragon magazine. They were always elves, is my point. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2022 : 04:12:59
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| Actually, that story is the 5e retcon to the Raven Queen, told in Mordekainen's Tome of Foes. Dungeon magazine has her original origin story, in which the Raven Queen was originally a mortal sorceress who caught Nerull's attention. He killed her, and made her his consort in the afterlife. She was not happy about, learned Nerull's secrets and then killed him, stealing his godhood. I prefer this storyline to the boring one they invented for 5e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Oct 2022 04:14:00 |
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Shadar Kai are now elves
