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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1086 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  12:15:50  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because the lore of 4e has the Krinth go extinct while the new Shadar-kai were born (yeah, 4e killed that race outright). The 4e lore for these Shadar-kai also specifically has Tanthul calling them "Shadar-kai" because it was convenient to him. It was a religious move, calling them "Shadar-kai" to avoid unrest as people was concerned as to why they were changing. So he said "you are blessed by Shar. In ancient Netherese, that means you're 'Shadar-kai'".

Though, FR 4e Shadar-kai were born as part of the Spellplague, so they are mutations. We can say those humans were mutated into elves and be done with it. Something like that is possible within the powers of the Spellplague.

Suffice to say that this lore is a 5e recognized retcon of what was said in 4e (recognized, as in the authors had recognized they are retconing things). They even changed the origins and nature of the Raven Queen, who is the true creator of the Shadar-kai race (both in 4e and 5e lore)—and yeah, the Raven Queen is mentioned in Tome of Foes, it seems, as part of the new elven lore.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Feb 2018 12:21:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  18:37:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Buuuuuut... we've retconned great swaths of 4e lore, either by direct retcon, or Ao's 'reset button' ('The Retcon that isn't quite a retcon' LOL).

Yes, I KNOW what is and isn't an edition 'factoid', but I am trying to spin things in such a way that we can make it al work.

Shades show-up on Toril and they have a 'servitor race' of shadowy beings. While the folks who have had to directly interact with the Shades know they call these people 'Krinth', othesr hearing about them think, "Oh... those must be Shadar-Kai. I've heard of those!" Thus, the misinformation of them being Shadar-Kai spread. Then the Spellplague hits and some elves get infused with shadow... or if you are desperate to make it all work even more, the Krinth are destroyed by the spellplague, but their 'masters' - the Shades - capture their essences (souls?) and infuse a group of Elven captives with it, creating these new psuedo-Shadar-Kai (who aren't real Shadar-kai and have nothing to do with those creatures). This just further substantiates the 'myth' that Shades were using Shadar-Kai all along.

Ao hits the big reset button, and 'un-do's the Spellplague, which has the side-effect of ripping the Krinth essences out of those elves and bringing back the original people (Ao doesn't really bother with mortals, but if we link all of this to a God - one who 'died' because of the Spellplague - we can make it work). So in the eyes of those elves, they have now had 'the curse lifted', and the Krinth are happy to be back as themselves. As for the real Shadar-Kai, if they even caught wind of any of this, it probably amuses them.

And we don't even have to tie that first part directly to the Spellplague (although it makes them 'coming back' more plausible) - the Shades were losing troops like crazy, and replacing their numbers isn't as easy for them as it is for their enemies, so they capture the essences of their fallen warriors (lets say Krinth carry an amulet, or maybe where some sort of 'torc', etc.), and then they place that essence inside some of their captured enemies, creating the psuedo-Shadar-Kai.

You can take smelly (inconsistent) bits of lore and create a decent story out of it, most of the time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 18:41:08
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3184 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  01:06:04  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Shades show-up on Toril and they have a 'servitor race' of shadowy beings. While the folks who have had to directly interact with the Shades know they call these people 'Krinth', othesr hearing about them think, "Oh... those must be Shadar-Kai. I've heard of those!" Thus, the misinformation of them being Shadar-Kai spread. Then the Spellplague hits and some elves get infused with shadow... or if you are desperate to make it all work even more, the Krinth are destroyed by the spellplague, but their 'masters' - the Shades - capture their essences (souls?) and infuse a group of Elven captives with it, creating these new psuedo-Shadar-Kai (who aren't real Shadar-kai and have nothing to do with those creatures). This just further substantiates the 'myth' that Shades were using Shadar-Kai all along.

Ao hits the big reset button, and 'un-do's the Spellplague, which has the side-effect of ripping the Krinth essences out of those elves and bringing back the original people (Ao doesn't really bother with mortals, but if we link all of this to a God - one who 'died' because of the Spellplague - we can make it work). So in the eyes of those elves, they have now had 'the curse lifted', and the Krinth are happy to be back as themselves. As for the real Shadar-Kai, if they even caught wind of any of this, it probably amuses them.


-I like that concept because (A) we know that magic like that exists and (B) that's such an insidious way to keep a slave a slave. You literally have a piece of their soul, that they can't get back. That also works, tying soul energy to past lore, because Incarnum was tied to the Netherese (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070808).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  11:00:52  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://youtu.be/ZYou87fg1f0

I have no idea how current 5e lore will connect to FR, it makes no sense in an FR context.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2980 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  13:22:22  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

https://youtu.be/ZYou87fg1f0

I have no idea how current 5e lore will connect to FR, it makes no sense in an FR context.



I read on one of their Dragon+ issues that the chapter for each race will include some sections that explain how that race and its history fits in the specific worlds (for example: Elves in the Realms, Elves in Mystara, Elves in Eberron, etc...)

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  15:36:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

https://youtu.be/ZYou87fg1f0

I have no idea how current 5e lore will connect to FR, it makes no sense in an FR context.



I read on one of their Dragon+ issues that the chapter for each race will include some sections that explain how that race and its history fits in the specific worlds (for example: Elves in the Realms, Elves in Mystara, Elves in Eberron, etc...)



Yeah I know, but I wish they'd mentioned that in the video.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  20:00:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WOW.

NOT to sound conceited or anything, but as convoluted as my own lore is about Kiaransalee being the Raven Queen (but really not), their's is SO MUCH WORSE. Epic-level BAD. At least mine makes sense - there are VERY good reasons to connect my two. What they did there - they just decided they wanted them connected, for absolutely NO good reason, and idd so in the most heavy-handed, nonsensical way imaginable. I'm am listening to this video and my jaw is on the floor - its like listening to a 3-year talk about the new monster he just invented. They really couldn't come up with a better story than THAT?

And we have Shar, and a bunch of other shadow-related gods and goddesses, and they decided to connect the Shadar-Kai to her, and say THEY are 'her people' (rather than the Drow, which were just an accident). Its like the just took 40 years of D&D lore and used it for toilet paper.

Well, it looks like that one video just talked me out of buying MToF. That's $50 better spent elsewhere, because I am accepting NONE of that as canon. Its absolute garbage - they are using Lolth instead of Shar because Lolth is universal and Shar is setting-specific. I can guarantee you this is the first move toward them merging Lolth and Shar in canon. Just you watch. I smell 6e on the horizon.

EDIT:
On the other hand - I truly hate to say this - merging those two would solve a lot on my end. I always felt Mask was just a human aspect of Vhaeraun, so it would all make sense.

EDIT2:
Okay, I just decided its only the part about Lolth being the Raven Queen that I hate (it makes NO SENSE- Kiaransalee is the obvious choice here!). I had some odd ideas about Angharradh, about her originally having included Lolth, and if I couple that with the War of Light & Darkness, then our proto-power that split into two 'sisters' would have been Angharradh, who became Selūne and Lolth. Because we now know Sehanine is Selūne, it all makes sense, actually. Hanali Celanil & Aerdrie Faenya then got added-into the composite later on, to take the missing Araushnee's place. I'll elaborate further in the Cosmology thread.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2018 20:12:26
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2980 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  20:07:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

WOW.

NOT to sound conceited or anything, but as convoluted as my own lore is about Kiaransalee being the Raven Queen (but really not), their's is SO MUCH WORSE. Epic-level BAD. At least mine makes sense - there are VERY good reasons to connect my two. What they did there - they just decided they wanted them connected, for absolutely NO good reason, and idd so in the most heavy-handed, nonsensical way imaginable. I'm am listening to this video and my jaw is on the floor - its like listening to a 3-year talk about the new monster he just invented. They really couldn't come up with a better story than THAT?

And we have Shar, and a bunch of other shadow-related gods and goddesses, and they decided to connect the Shadar-Kai to her, and say THEY are 'her people' (rather than the Drow, which were just an accident). Its like the just took 40 years of D&D lore and used it for toilet paper.

Well, it looks like that one video just talked me out of buying MToF. That's $50 better spent elsewhere, because I am accepting NONE of that as canon. Its absolute garbage - they are using Lolth instead of Shar because Lolth is universal and Shar is setting-specific. I can guarantee you this is the first move toward them merging Lolth and Shar in canon. Just you watch. I smell 6e on the horizon.

EDIT:
On the other hand - I truly hate to say this - merging those two would solve a lot on my end. I always felt Mask was just a human aspect of Vhaeraun, so it would all make sense.



They aren't using Lolth, they made up a whole new deity and then slapped the name "Raven Queen" on her.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  20:21:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I had to rewatch it. There is an edit in there - if you pay close attention you can see it. He must have said something they decided they didn't want said. It gets confusing around there because he is talking about Lolth (the demon Queen of Spiders), and then segues right into 'this Dark Elven Queen'. I had to watch it a second time (and even a third - kept putting it back because its very murky right there) to see where he started talking about someone else (it isn't very clear at all, because he just calls her 'The Queen').

Thanks for the correction... now it all makes sense, and works even better as Kiaransalee (they are making tRQ's backstory align perfectly with Kiar's LOL). For a second I thought they were stepping outside of my playbook.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2018 20:22:28
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2980 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  21:00:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, I had to rewatch it. There is an edit in there - if you pay close attention you can see it. He must have said something they decided they didn't want said. It gets confusing around there because he is talking about Lolth (the demon Queen of Spiders), and then segues right into 'this Dark Elven Queen'. I had to watch it a second time (and even a third - kept putting it back because its very murky right there) to see where he started talking about someone else (it isn't very clear at all, because he just calls her 'The Queen').


Yeah, they say that this Queen offered to the elves a different path than the other queen (i.e. Lolth).

quote:
Thanks for the correction... now it all makes sense, and works even better as Kiaransalee (they are making tRQ's backstory align perfectly with Kiar's LOL). For a second I thought they were stepping outside of my playbook.




To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  23:12:11  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mask is the son of Shar originally, who that merged with Drasek Riven, to form a new, less arsehole of a deity.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1086 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  01:00:33  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

https://youtu.be/ZYou87fg1f0

I have no idea how current 5e lore will connect to FR, it makes no sense in an FR context.



That lore doesn't make sense even in the Nentir Vale (the original setting of the Raven Queen). But, we must take into account that this is a retcon to her story, done just because, perhaps to make her compatible with other settings (including Greyhawk and FR).

And that Mordenkainen Tome of Foes deals with the D&D multiverse (that in 5e seems to be a fusion of Planescape and Spelljammer). The new lore about the Raven Queen and the Shadar-kai makes sense in FR in a Planescape-y way, even if it doesn't make sense in an FR way.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Mar 2018 01:04:06
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3184 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  02:13:53  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mask is the son of Shar originally...


-We've known this since the Twilight War trilogy.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  03:00:55  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mask is the son of Shar originally...


-We've known this since the Twilight War trilogy.



Yeah I know, but it was suggested that Mask and Vharuen are just different aspects of the same God, but they aren't.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  05:34:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless Lolth is Shar... and there IS a heresy to that effect.

Now, we can just laugh-off heresies, but around the same time we learned of that one, we learned of the heresy that Lathander was just a different aspect of Aumantor, which turned out to be TRUE in 4e.

Of course, it turned out to be UNTRUE in 5e, but i don't really think of a lot of the deific stuff as 'retcons', so much as The Gods (and Ao) obfuscating the truth (so the truth could be as simple as Ao telling all these 'aspects of...' gods to go back to the way things used to be, and convince people each aspect is a separate being). To mortals, it really makes no difference.

Because of what happened with The Raven Queen (she was 'reborn' as something different), I am starting to see more versatility in my ideas about 'aspects', and a deity can be 'shattered' into different aspects, just as Tych was torn into Beshaba and Tymora, and they can also be 'put together', like we see with Angharradh, and a deity can also 'go nuts', which is what I'm pretty-sure happened to Selūne (or rather, the goddess that was separated into Selūne and Shar). So we got a big event in FR's past where a major deity separates, and we have lore about female elven deities becoming 'conjoined'. And now we also know that one of those Seldarine involved - Sehanine - is also Selūne.

So it seems to me it IS entirely possible that Lolth turns out to be an elven aspect of Shar - that her bid to create the 'Demon Weave' was actually just her trying to reboot the Shadoweave (and once again - Lolth's followers were the Shadar-Kai - a group of elves that attached themselves to shadow). This modifies our setting-specific creation myths very little; If Angharradh is the 'proto-goddess', then two pieces of her would be Sehanine/Selūne and Araushnee/Shar. I just notice something... if you spell her original name backwards its Eenhsuar... almost like 'Shar'. Kinda like how 'Sune(v)' is 'Venus' backwards... who is also Hanali... who is also part of Angharradh.

And it's not like Mask & Vhaeruaun have anything in common... like their holy symbol...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 17:48:14
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2980 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  11:18:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Unless Lolth is Shar... and there IS a heresy to that effect.

Now, we can just laugh-off heresies, but around the same time we learned of that one, we learned of the heresy that Layhander was just a different aspect of Aumantor, which turned out to be RUE in 4e.

Of course, it turned out to be UNTRUE in 5e, but i don't really think of a lot of the deific stuff as 'retcons', so much as The Gods (and Ao) obfuscating the truth (so the truth could be as simple as Ao telling all these 'aspects of...' gods to go back to the way things used to be, and convince people each aspect is a separate being. To mortals, it really makes no difference.

Because of what happened with The Raven Queen (she was 'reborn' as something different), I am starting to see more versatility in my ideas about 'aspects', and a deity can be 'shattered' into different aspects, just as Tych was torn into Beshaba and Tymora, and they can also be 'put together', like we see with Angharradh, and a deity can also 'go nuts', which is what I'm pretty-sure happened to Selūne (or rather, the goddess that was separated into Selūne and Shar). So we got a big event in FR's past where a major deity separates, and we have lore about female elven deities becoming 'conjoined'. And now we also know that one of those Seldarine involved - Sehanine - is also Selūne.

So it seems to me it IS entirely possible that Lolth turns out to be an elven aspect of Shar - that her bid to create the 'Demon Weave' was actually just her trying to reboot the Shadoweave (and once again - Lolth's followers were the Shadar-Kai - a group of elves that attached themselves to shadow). This modifies our setting-specific creation myths very little; If Angharradh is the 'proto-goddess', then two pieces of her would be Sehanine/Selūne and Araushnee/Shar. I just notice something... if you spell her original name backwards its Eenhsuar... almost like 'Shar'. Kinda like how 'Sune(v)' is 'Venus' backwards... who is also Hanali... who is also part of Angharradh.

And it's not like Mask & Vhaeruaun have anything in common... like their holy symbol...



But how does Selune=Sehanine and the likes make any sense, given that the elven deities are clearly interlopers, while Selune is *not* a multispheric deity (we know that from On Hallowed Ground). Selune was already there when Sehanine&Co arrived to Toril, so that would raise a clear issue.

The only way for that to happen would be for Selune to subsume Sehanine. While I can see that happening for Shar and Lolth, it's unlikely that two deities like Selune and Sehanine would try to kill each other, especially when there was no reason for them to merge or fight over portfolios (and even then, Vhaeraun would be already there before Mask, since Lolth's twins were born before she even set foot on Toril. Unless you meant that Mask is the human form of Vhaeraun, and not the other way around. Honestly, tho, there's a quite close analogy between Vhaeraun and Mask, and Eilistraee and Lliira).

I give you that, since Shar is known to have extended her influence to other spheres (and then destroy them), it might be possible that Lolth=Shar. However, they're so deeply different that it really seems unlikely to me. For example, their goals couldn't be more distant (one wants to disintegrate everything, the other only wants to dominated and be worshipped by everyone). The Demon Weave was doomed to fail before it even started, because--according to Ed--Lolth simply didn't have the ability to sustain a Weave (and you'd expect the elven aspect of Shar to at least have decent skills in that regard, since Shar sustained her Shadow Weave for a very long time). They are also enemies (Shar is losted as Vhaeraun's ally).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2018 11:25:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  18:20:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As much as I love On Hallowed Ground, a LOT of that has to just be ignored now, post-2e. 4e retconned great swaths of it.

And, if you go with everything I've said about aspects, then it is entirely possible that Selūne is a Sphere-specific aspect of a more ancient deity, and what happened in Realmspace merely reflects a greater 'cosmic conflict' that was occurring at the time (The Godswar). As I've stated numerous times - aspects don't even have to be all that similar; they are based primarily on mortal beliefs. And you CAN have a room full of them all having a conversation - and disagreeing - with each other (like Jack Sparrow in At World's End - "My peanut!")

You can look at it like this - Beshaba and Tymora were just aspects of Tyche - two 'sides' of her. They are nothing alike, yet they were both 'Tyche'. PLUS, Tyche does still definitely exist as well - its just that in Realmspace two of her aspects have 'gone rogue', so to speak. Hell, if Manshoon can go to war with himself, I don't see why Gods can't.

This also means that gods who belong to multiple pantheons - and there are even a bunch who do this in RW mythology (Set has had children with deities from TWO other pantheons, Hermes appears in several, and Ki is also Omnispheric and multipantheonic - our version is called MielikKi, and there IS an elven version of her as well - Khalreshaar) - CAN be found 'lounging around' in other pantheons 'headquarters', or even in other Godly domains. The existence of a version of 'The Moon Goddess' does not preclude a different version of her somewhere else. We can look at On hallowed Ground as something written from a mortal (Clueless) perspective.

And lastly, I am not all that sure 'Selūne' actually exists. If she is Shar's opposite, then why is it always Mystra who's battling Shar? I think 'Mystra' is to Tymora what 'Shar' is to Beshaba - two halves a deity that is just a 'memory' (and like Tyche, Selūne - as Sehanine - can still exist in other spheres, thus she does still technically have a 'presence', but its more like a vestige in The Realms). And if you bring-up Selūne 'church', then I'd just like to point out the fact that there are people STILL worshiping Tyche - and receiving spells from 'her' - in The Realms (she even had a major temple in Cormyr just a couple centuries back).

This is why I relate the whole 'God Thing' to my old 'lavalamp' theory - divinity is just a lavalamp, and it is constantly in motion, breaking apart, going back together, creating new things that also break apart and reform - 'divinity' is NOT static. Gods absorb each other (aspects, really) and split apart all the time. Or maybe gods are just uber-trolls - you 'cut off a finger', and with a little care & attention, you can 'grow' a brand new one.

Thus, Lolth and Shar can be two different aspects of Araushnee... who no longer exists. There was two 'sides' to Araushnee as well, and we know where some of that went - it became the Demon-Queen Lolth. That doesn't mean another chunk of her could have wound up somewhere else, as someone else. In fact, this can also help explain how the Dark Elves - her 'children' - could have existed for so long in the realms without her knowing about it - because Realmspace already had a different aspect of her. It was only the 'Lolth' aspect of Araushnee that hadn't stumbled upon Toril. And if some of what I suspect concerning Shar is true (relating to Abeir), then it all makes perfect sense (to me, anyway).

But to mortals, NONE of that really makes a bit of difference, because you can worship a God a hundred different ways as a hundred different aspects, and each will be 'true'. Each aspect is no less 'real' than any other. RW humans can have multiple-personality disorder; Gods are just capable of fashioning bodies for them, is all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 18:24:06
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3184 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  06:58:49  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-It's times like this that the Athar are right.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2980 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  12:02:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay

I didn't mean to say that it was impossible, especially in a world of fantasy--even more so in one whose rules and continuity have been broken to the point that they're now reduced to some kind of fine mist.

What I meant is that giving a look at the history that we know, conflating Selune/Sehanine and so on together requires quite a lot of assumptions, and while I agree that it's fun, a more direct reasoning leads to exclude that possibility. Especially in the case of drastically different deities (I mean, yes, aspect could acquire their own traits, but when they differ from the original deity to the point of being unrecognizable, then they're no longer aspects. They might have been once, but they no longer are. They're just their own being).

As for the speculation about Selune, she clearly exists (for example, she had a mortal form during the ToT). I try to not let corporate directives influence the lore. If WotC doesn't like Selune it doesn't mean that she doesn't exist. As you say, all the material that we get can be seen as some mortal's perspective, and that can easily be incomplete or outright wrong. Selune is a subtle deity, maybe mortals didn't notice her involvment, but she's always been there (but really, it all boils down to corporate preferences. WotC plays favorites--A LOT. We've seen it countless times. They even got to the point of removing a whole pantheon and entire cultures while throwing mud on all of them and distorting them to the point of unlikability, just because they wanted to make Drizzt even "moar speshul". And then they quietly restored all of them w/o even giving them a proper novel or explanation--up to now, I hope that this Mordenkainen's book will change the situation).

As for my personal take on this, I honestly don't really like deities as these ever-mutable "balls of energy". It makes them rather uninteresting to me, and also very vague. I mean, energy is not some kind of shining liquid substance, energy is in everything. So--to me--a deity being a ball of energy means no more and no less than a human also being a "ball" of energy. I like gods when they're also humans (not excessively so, like WotC had them, but they need to be more human than alien). Some of them can be alien (those who are forces of nature), but deities like Helm, Torm, Bane, the racial pantheons, etc... they're more rooted in the mortal world. Given their portfolio, history, goals it only feels right for them to be closer to "human" in outlook and beliefs than those abstract concepts. I don't think that all deities should share the same nature.

Besides, while discussing the "metaphysics" of these balls of energy can be entertaining, they don't really have much value as characters, if they're just those alien blobs. The complexity of the setting gets richer, but the value added to the story gets lower. That's my personal take on this anyway.

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Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2018 16:20:58
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  17:57:01  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While it isn't impossible for deities to originate from balls of energy (a Lolth-ball, for example, and all the other Lolths of the world stem from that. They may have different personalities and origins within those worlds), and this does help explain the mutli-spheric aspect, I also don't see why all the various deities can't be just that--various deities. Yeah, some of them might be aspects of each other, but I think we sometimes try to "tone down" the pantheons too much by making one deity just an aspect of another, when I don't see why we can't just acknowledge the fact that there are MANY deities out there, and some of them are similar to each other, and some are different. It's like people. Some of us are alike, but we're still individuals.

You of course have deities who are multi-spheric (Lolth existing in FR and in Greyhawk), and this could mean they all extend from a "Lolth-ball" (rhymes with moth-ball lol), but it could also have other implications, too. Even the deities exist in the multiverse, and so it *is* possible that there are multiple Lolths, existing in parallel dimensions to each other. Or, Lolth spreads herself through the universe, and each Lolth is part of the "original Lolth", because they are all her essence. This would explain why, to truly kill a deity, you would have to erase them from the entire multiverse--destroy their essence. This would also explain the interloper deities, who came from elsewhere. They didn't come from a ball of energy, they migrated.

I think we try to simplify things too much by trying to fit the deities in certain boxes. Divinity is complicated, and there are many gods out there LOL, and they all have personalities and histories.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Mar 2018 18:01:45
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Irennan
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  18:09:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said, when an aspect becomes so different from the original to be unrecognizable, then they're no longer really an aspect but their own deity. They have their own identity.

As for the "ball of energy" concept, I have a hard time with it for the simple fact that--as I said--a human is a ball of energy too. A rock is too, anything in this world is energy (even the Sun, or fire, the iconic "balls of energy" are made of physical matter that undergoes certain reactions). A deity doesn't need to be a ball of energy to produce aspects: similarly to how mortals can make simulacra or copies of themselves, deities would be able to do that too (avatars, aspects, or w/e). There's also the fact that balls of energy that only think about absorbing other energy don't make for great characters or stories IMO.

For deities that are worshiped in different spheres, since all the worlds are interconnected and share the same outer planes, I don't see why they can't just reside in the outer planes and reach out towards different material planes. Differences in their outlook can easily be attributed to mortal beliefs and depiction of the deity. Some deities can develop different aspects as a form of contingency for the worst cases, but it's not needed to exist in multiple spheres.

In the case of some interloper gods, like the Seldarine, it's more that the elves migrated and left their original world, so the largest center of worship of the Seldarine shifted to other worlds. They still live in Arvandor, tho, they didn't develop Toril-specific aspects, that I know (the only ones among them who effectively migrated are Lolth and her children, as the former was sent into the Abyss, the latter wandered among their people for a while, and then took home in other outer planes).

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Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2018 18:15:05
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  18:27:45  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^That is kind of what I was getting at, and why I said "spreading essence". I don't particularly like the "ball of energy" concept, either, I'm just throwing it out there. I was mostly agreeing with you, just expanding on my own thoughts.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  19:23:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hence my inclusion of the possibility of an aspect/avatar 'going rogue'. As part of our Orc musings in another thread, sometimes aspects have drifted so far away from their 'core essence' that they may as well be completely different gods. In that thread, I was trying to reconcile the 4e lore* that Gruumsh is Talos, by saying Talos was an aspect of Gruumsh - an Elder God - that had courted relationships with a LOT of non-goblinoids, and thus, lost quite a bit of his 'Gruumshiness'. Then another aspect of Gruumsh - a truer aspect - comes through during the Orcgate wars, and starts plotting against the aspect that he felt 'went astray' (and eventually subsumes that other aspect). Thus, Gruumsh & Talos were both two separate entities, and yet, the same being as well.

A great deal of what I put forth here is just me using this place as a 'sounding board' for stuff that I work-out in my own head, and has absolutely nothing to do with running games in The Realms. To mortals, it doesn't really matter if two gods are really just different aspects of an even greater being, because it doesn't change the rules regarding them. It's more of a 'deeper secrets' thing that DMs who like to run more cerebral games (players discovering clues to these secrets) might be able to play with. Like everything else, they're just 'toys in the toybox', and you can play with them if you want, or just ignore them. It really doesn't matter at all.

But since 4e went with this whole 'merging thing' - something I had personally been doing for years anyway - and its now considered canon in 5e (even if it was 'retconned', it was done-so in game, which means even the retcon is known and canon... in setting. I like it mostly because its a great way to explain inconsistencies from setting to setting, in regards to these gods, and also between editions. For example, maybe on some worlds Gruumsh is lawful evil, and on others, he is chaotic evil. Both can exist, because aspects develop their own personalities and quirks over time. This is actually nothing new for D&D - I believe it was in 1e or 2e where I was first introduced to the concept of 'the Achtype' (it isn't mine - it comes straight out of a sourebook). Now, looking back through the filter of 6 editions (7 if you include Chainmail), most of these 'Elder Gods' we started seeing in 4e are these theoretical 'archtypes' which already existed in D&D, but we just never saw them before (because their involvement in matters goes back to before the Crystal Spheres - and the need for aspects - were created). This is also why I feel like Nerath is just a regional name for The First World (the 'Midgard' of my cosmology). Things like pantheons and alignment should not even matter to such beings, because they are form before any of that were things.

I don't try and roll 'all the gods together' to simplify things - quite the contrary. What I do gets very complicated - merging all the lore, myths, & religions together into something approaching a cohesive whole. Its not meant to rock anyone's boat, and like I said, its also NOT meant to be applied 'in game'. Add to that all these D&D editions where they keep changing stuff and it gets so much worse. I am just trying to provide a model that we can apply to all these changes and differences and have it still all make sense in a meta-gaming sort of way. And in that regard, not only is no religion/cult 'getting it wrong', but neither is any DM, or groups of players. There is no 'wrong', because everything is based upon mortal beliefs and preconceptions.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 00:25:55
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  19:50:58  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like to figure out "where things come from", too, whether mortals in game know about it or not. That is, after all, the point of these discussions. We diverge from what the mortals know LOL. This is why I'm saying the "balls of energy" isn't impossible, but the "spreading essence" is also possible. The two ideas are similar in concept, but different in practice and "origin story".

In 4e, they tried to make certain deities aspects of each other (like Gruumsh and Talos) in order to simplify things, however, I will concur that in a way, that makes things more complicated, because then you have to figure out why they are aspects/where they come from/etc. But that seems to have retconned in 5e, for which I am personally glad for. Markustay, I didn't mean to imply your ideas were simple--they aren't. They are intricate and complex. What I meant when I said making the deities aspects of each other or originating from balls of energy (or whatever you want to call them) simplifies things is that essentially puts the deities into these boxes, rather than allowing for different origins (other than for individual "aspects" or "branches" of that deity). However, with multispheric deities (and by that I mean deities who exist on multiple planes/worlds), I acknowledge that there has to be an "origin point".

Sweet water and light laughter
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  23:39:40  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.

Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?
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