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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  17:06:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The gnoll thing looks like that went to African folklore for some inspiration (they got oddball stuff like that - oddball to US, from a Euro-centric PoV). As I am doing my Katashaka book, some of the monsters I love (I have to say, they're very creative), and others I am like, "what are the smoking over there?'

Like the Aigamucha - basically an ogre who's eyes are on the bottoms of his feet. I mean, whats the party supposed to do? Laugh themselves to death? I am going to have to completely respin that. But the gnoll sounds like some of the stuff I've read about their hyena-men (Not to be confused with a Hyena-Man, which is completely different sort of monster... and REAL).

The Beholder thing... just NO. That literally sounds to me like something a Kindergartner came up with. Refrigerator-artwork and all.

Too bad I like Firbolgs so much I'm still tempted...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2018 17:07:11
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  17:22:54  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Over the years, I think the ball was dropped regarding Gnolls. They're a cool looking race, I think there's enough to differentiate them from generic goblins, orcs, ogres, etc., and there's enough open lore to do something with them over the years (they're one of the oldest races in existence in the Forgotten Realms, going all the way back to -30,400 DR at the very least), but nothing was ever really done with them.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  18:07:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
4e did a lot for gnolls, transforming them from mind-slaves of Yeenoghu to a fleshed out race (at least, it was true for the 4e core gnolls). However, somehow 5e devolved them into mind-slaves of Yeenoghu who spring up from hyenas (I guess this is 5e new) because reasons.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1293 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  18:43:04  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The gnoll thing looks like that went to African folklore for some inspiration (they got oddball stuff like that - oddball to US, from a Euro-centric PoV). As I am doing my Katashaka book, some of the monsters I love (I have to say, they're very creative), and others I am like, "what are the smoking over there?'

Like the Aigamucha - basically an ogre who's eyes are on the bottoms of his feet. I mean, whats the party supposed to do? Laugh themselves to death? I am going to have to completely respin that. But the gnoll sounds like some of the stuff I've read about their hyena-men (Not to be confused with a Hyena-Man, which is completely different sort of monster... and REAL).

The Beholder thing... just NO. That literally sounds to me like something a Kindergartner came up with. Refrigerator-artwork and all.

Too bad I like Firbolgs so much I'm still tempted...



Their Firbolgs look nothing like traditional FR Firbolgs, they look like giant rejects from fraggle rock. The mechanics were cool, but I hated the retcon.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  19:58:37  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

4e did a lot for gnolls, transforming them from mind-slaves of Yeenoghu to a fleshed out race (at least, it was true for the 4e core gnolls). However, somehow 5e devolved them into mind-slaves of Yeenoghu who spring up from hyenas (I guess this is 5e new) because reasons.


-I'm talking about Forgotten Realms specifically. There there, they've been there basically the whole time, but they're hardly there.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

700 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  08:06:25  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wait, when were gnolls the mind-slaves of Yeenoghu? They have their own racial god; Captain Fuzzybritches' usurpation of Gorellik is because the gnolls are turning to him over the hyena-god.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  09:21:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In 5e, it seems.

EDIT: Wow, over 1000 posts! And I feel I'm only spamming here

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Feb 2018 09:22:20
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sleyvas
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USA
7049 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  23:07:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

4e did a lot for gnolls, transforming them from mind-slaves of Yeenoghu to a fleshed out race (at least, it was true for the 4e core gnolls). However, somehow 5e devolved them into mind-slaves of Yeenoghu who spring up from hyenas (I guess this is 5e new) because reasons.


-I'm talking about Forgotten Realms specifically. There there, they've been there basically the whole time, but they're hardly there.



Yeah, other than Thay, they don't feature much elsewhere other than "yeah, there's gnolls there". I must say that I wanted to do something with them in Katashaka, as in portraying several different variations of dog men and defining their cultural differences. I haven't done it though. I am picturing though a standard hyena-man race... a "greyhound"/"Doberman" looking race with sleek fur and pointed ears (lawful, loyal traits) ..... a shaggy/vicious "german shepherd" or wolf looking race... a collie / fox looking race (both red and grey) that are "fun loving"...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  23:44:25  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-So, in other words, the Road Roavers.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
550 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  00:45:37  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually find the gnoll lore pretty awesome. Gorellik is easily explained as the true interloper, though the reverse was originally proposed. Perhaps Gorellik is just a cover for one of the Bugbear god brothers or someone else not quite as insane as Yeenoghu.
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2206 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2018 :  22:55:09  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you know what, that mordenkainen's book might actually have the scro in it too.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31134 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  03:24:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

you know what, that mordenkainen's book might actually have the scro in it too.....



That would surprise me, since the scro are a Spelljammer race, and they've done their best to shunt anything Spelljammer to the side... They were so determined to kick it to the curb that in 3E, they made groundling neogi -- and explicitly stated that the neogi were known for flying ships, but those were going to be ignored for straight groundling ones. In other words, "we've taken the coolest aspect of this race and removed it to make them fit into a niche they don't belong in."

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Feb 2018 03:25:06
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2206 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  03:55:39  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well they did say that mordenkainen cared about conflict.

blood war
elf orc wars
elf drwo wars
goblin dwarf

etc etc.

would be surprising to see it.


they could also make a

Wooly Rupert's logs and starcharts book.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234

Edited by - sfdragon on 17 Feb 2018 03:55:55
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  05:20:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The gnoll thing looks like that went to African folklore for some inspiration (they got oddball stuff like that - oddball to US, from a Euro-centric PoV). As I am doing my Katashaka book, some of the monsters I love (I have to say, they're very creative), and others I am like, "what are the smoking over there?'

Like the Aigamucha - basically an ogre who's eyes are on the bottoms of his feet. I mean, whats the party supposed to do? Laugh themselves to death? I am going to have to completely respin that. But the gnoll sounds like some of the stuff I've read about their hyena-men (Not to be confused with a Hyena-Man, which is completely different sort of monster... and REAL).

The Beholder thing... just NO. That literally sounds to me like something a Kindergartner came up with. Refrigerator-artwork and all.

Too bad I like Firbolgs so much I'm still tempted...



Their Firbolgs look nothing like traditional FR Firbolgs, they look like giant rejects from fraggle rock. The mechanics were cool, but I hated the retcon.
***UGH!***

They literally turned the Firbolg's into Wheel of Time's Ogier!!! WTH?

I LOVED that they look like really big vikings (or very small Frost Giants.. or extremely tall dwarves LOL).

Thats not a design-decision... that's idiocy. The Goliaths are what the damn Firbolgs should have been (sans that dumb mottled skin coloration... and maybe some damn hair), and rather than fix that all (they could have just said the Goliaths were an extremely ugly offshoot), they go and turn my beloved Firbolgs in muppets.

How is it Pathfinder keeps getting things right, and D&D keeps getting things wrong?

I simply can't map settings where Firbolgs look like that. Hell, I even like the Warcraft Furbolgs better! (They're bear-people.)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2018 05:24:17
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2221 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2018 :  22:21:00  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Fibolgs from the Symphony of Ages are more like the original Firbolgs. In fact, that series was the first time I encountered firbolgs lol (I hadn't started reading Realms at that point).

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2018 :  06:52:43  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-FWIW, Scro deserve to be lost to the sands of time.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

700 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2018 :  07:44:31  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's because every edition from 4e onwards has been a total reset, so they keep on reinventing the wheel. Pathfinder is gleefully campy but somehow manages to make the monstrous races actually monstrous (I'm looking at you, ogres), while 4e onwards just becomes more and more bizarre.

The wheel didn't need to be reinvented. Touched up and expanded on, yes, but not smashed to bits and glued together.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Orcus was really an eldarin pulling the wool over the tanar'ri in one huge practical joke.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1293 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2018 :  22:09:25  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The gnoll thing looks like that went to African folklore for some inspiration (they got oddball stuff like that - oddball to US, from a Euro-centric PoV). As I am doing my Katashaka book, some of the monsters I love (I have to say, they're very creative), and others I am like, "what are the smoking over there?'

Like the Aigamucha - basically an ogre who's eyes are on the bottoms of his feet. I mean, whats the party supposed to do? Laugh themselves to death? I am going to have to completely respin that. But the gnoll sounds like some of the stuff I've read about their hyena-men (Not to be confused with a Hyena-Man, which is completely different sort of monster... and REAL).

The Beholder thing... just NO. That literally sounds to me like something a Kindergartner came up with. Refrigerator-artwork and all.

Too bad I like Firbolgs so much I'm still tempted...



Their Firbolgs look nothing like traditional FR Firbolgs, they look like giant rejects from fraggle rock. The mechanics were cool, but I hated the retcon.
***UGH!***

They literally turned the Firbolg's into Wheel of Time's Ogier!!! WTH?

I LOVED that they look like really big vikings (or very small Frost Giants.. or extremely tall dwarves LOL).

Thats not a design-decision... that's idiocy. The Goliaths are what the damn Firbolgs should have been (sans that dumb mottled skin coloration... and maybe some damn hair), and rather than fix that all (they could have just said the Goliaths were an extremely ugly offshoot), they go and turn my beloved Firbolgs in muppets.

How is it Pathfinder keeps getting things right, and D&D keeps getting things wrong?

I simply can't map settings where Firbolgs look like that. Hell, I even like the Warcraft Furbolgs better! (They're bear-people.)



If it makes you feel better they can cast disguise self to look like tall red headed viking/Celt Warriors. They get disguise self naturally.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2018 :  22:59:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-FWIW, Scro deserve to be lost to the sands of time.

Oooooohhhhhh....

You are SO gonna get it!

Dost thou hear the distant roar of enraged, Dire Hamster?

The problem here is that they've tended to spin a LOT of the SJ stuff into planer stuff (I don't know if the stuff Gray Richardson and myself used to discuss on the WotC boards influenced any of that, or the oft-times I've harped on here at the 'Keep, but I must say I like that direction). They've referred to some of the previous races and lore as Astraljammers, Aetherjammers, planesjammers, etc. Toward the end of 3e I recall at least one book featuring a demonic ship that could travel between the planes in much the same way SJ ships traveled. On the other hand, Rich Baker made DIRECT references to Spelljamming, and even took a trip to the moon in his his 4e Blades of the Moonsea series (which included the spacefaring variety of Neogi, not the 3e kind).

So, like so many companies with IPs that change hands repeatedly, directions shift. 3e definitely wanted to steer clear of SJ, and just about anything else that connected all the settings together (as they were in 2e). 4e then started to steer it back in the other direction, using the Shadowfell and Feywild to interconnect everything again (and sticking Ravenloft in the Shadowfell). Then again, they nuked the Great Wheel and the Planescape setting (and as I already mentioned, there were numerous references to the 'Sea of Night', but aside from Rich Baker, they did nothing with it).

Then along comes 5e, with its "it was all just a dream" (almost) approach, and they've gone back in the other direction, keeping the nifty planer toys 4e gave us (Feywild and Shadowfell), and also rebuilding the Great Wheel (and thus, Planescape). Ravenloft is also still around, and it hasn't really changed all that much (flavor-wise) - its still within a 'shadowy plane', but they've simply defined that previously enigmatic plane as the Shadowfell (its really just a bunch of planer domains - like godly domains - stitched together). The only thing they seem to have kept from the 3e era is the avoidance of Spelljammer material. At least, any 'hard' lore about it.

I truly hope they used the 'lost' plane of Ethereal (ditched in 4e) to bring back SJ with a more fantasy-ish vibe. It wouldn't even have to change, really, if they just say Arcane space was never Prime-material space to begin with (one of those 'Deeper Secrets' we've only just become privy too). Border-Ethereal exists within the planet's atmospheres, The Aether (regular ethereal) exists outside the atmosphere (where intrastellar space would in the material plane), and the Deep Ethereal would just become the Phlogiston - the stuff outside Crystal Spheres. It all works, still keeps RW physics intact, keeps 99.9% of the SJ lore viable, and would probably be more palatable to a greater number of people.

Paizo went into space with pathfinder. That's precisely why D&D shouldn't; they should go in a different direction, and one they know well, thanks to MtG - Planes-hopping (Planeswalkers). It just fits the genre better. Call the Arcane/Mercane the Aercane*, because they live in 'The Aethers', and its all good. The stuff their ships flew through wasn't based on anything grounded in reality anyway, so it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, IMO.


*I didn't like the change to Mercane, but I also think calling them 'Arcane' is confusing, since the word is used so heavily for other stuff in D&D. Aercane (or Ęrcane) at least sounds the same, and lends itself to the whole Ethereal spin better.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2018 20:07:47
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31134 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2018 :  23:59:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-FWIW, Scro deserve to be lost to the sands of time.

Oooooohhhhhh....

You are SO gonna get it!

Dost that hear the distant roar of enraged, Dore Hamster?




Meh, I can't help it if someone is utterly lacking in taste.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  20:09:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, because of all our old Orc/scro discussions, I still use 'Tum' as the word for 'Chief' in the Orcish language?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  23:59:10  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-No reason they shouldn't have just been run-of-the-mill Spelljamming Orcs, with a higher group intelligence than the run-of-the-mill Orc.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
550 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  01:38:35  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always saw the scro as more favored of Ilneval under the guise of whoeve the alleged scro deity was. That said, that was when orcs were lawful in 1e-2E days and not chaotic like they've been since 3e (which I frankly prefer, let the goblins and hobgoblins be lawful).
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1293 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  03:42:17  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://youtu.be/aJMvnT_JRa8

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  06:03:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going back to the original topic - I was reading through the 3e adventure Anauroch trying to find more locales for my map (the horror! That map is a COMPLETE MESS), and I came across the Krinth, which are human shadow-folk.

So why can't 4e's (was it 4e?)Shadar actually have been those instead? We could just say most folk can't tell the difference, and just thought they were Shadar-Kai. Thus, previous lore that said they were elves WERE Shadar-Kai, and newer lore that went to them being elves all works, and the lore that had them briefly (for one edition) as human shadowfolk was 'just a case of mistaken identity'. Because why the hell did we even need another group of human-shadow hybrids when we had the krinth? Who ALSO happen to work for the Netherese? (and I know there had to be one or two mor 'shadow infused' human groups, aside form the Shades themselves, or the Malaugrym).

In fact, the only thing NOT infused with 'Umbral Energy' in FR/D&D are actual shadows.

Weren't we joking about all of that back at the tail-end of 3e? EVERYTHING had to be 'shadowy' toward the end there? We even had farmers growing shadow-maters!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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