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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3889 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  08:43:00  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And where is the article. Im always on the lookout to add local elven pantheon members

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  15:51:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gruumsh? Where did you come from, where did you go; where did you come from Cotton-Eyed Joe...

AD&D for me!
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  22:09:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
So you don't like 'short and simple' names? Try being a cartographer. the first time you run into a crowded area with a "Mouth 'O' Gargoyles" you'll be pulling your hair out.
Or, as always happens in real-life, a place named "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" gets shortened into "the Mouth" in common usage, unless of course "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" needs to be distinguished and disambiguated from the nearby "Mouth 'O Dragons", lol. And "the Mouth" can easily turn into "Stormbeard's Mouth" after the pirate Stormbeard hides his treasure there, or it might become "Windmouth" or "Bridgemouth" or "Stoneclaw" or "Blacknest" or whatever. "Hello, I'm looking for 'MOG' ... do you know where I can find it?"

The name of the place/thing in practice is whatever most conveniently differentiates and meaningfully identifies it in local usage. Formal titles and antiquated monikers are the stuff of historians and pedants.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2018 00:18:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  00:43:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

And where is the article. Im always on the lookout to add local elven pantheon members.
I'm sure you've read it. I knew the gods from the article itself (I just never worte them down because I had no interest in them before), but now, year later, when I read the lore in the article, i am seeing it in a whole new light (with 3e & 4e behind now, and 5e in front of us). Its the article on Elven magic in Dragon #251. For example, I never noticed beofre that lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness have worked together before. That's kind of a big deal to me, because I've connected them together in other things (and now, YEARS later, when we know the elves ARE fey, it means the two goddesses have extremely similar origins - both 'fey' that have been booted from their original pantheon).

There's also Rhiannon from Dragon #155, who supposedly created the Fey. I am interpreting that to now mean the smallish fey, since we also now know Corellon was directly responsible for the creation of the tall Fey (Eladrin, and later, elves). This means Rhiannon either had to also be Seldarine, or is the very first archfey (Arch-archfey? lol), but probably a primal spirit who became the first archfey. In fact, I'm not seeing a real difference between most of those 'primal spirits' and the Seldarine (who are no the Fey gods, which means all of the fey deities should be Seldarine as well, in hindsight).

But after watching THIS VIDEO, I've decided to hold-off on any more specuation about the ancient elves, fey, and drow. Or anything else 'cosmological', for that matter. I have a feeling all my theories are about to get trampled on.

"We here at Hasbro are working hard to take away your personal fun. As a toy company, we feel its out obligations to inform you of the proper way to have fun."

I've never been this elated and simultaneously filled with dread at the same time before - I'll be picking that book up as soon as it comes out. (Damn them all to hell!)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2018 00:47:22
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  01:05:05  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

the Fey themselves probably created the Elves, hence them being a 'Creator Race')


-No, it does not have to- and likely does not- mean that!
(lol, the eternal battle)

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Feb 2018 01:06:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  00:20:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, it most likely does, since the 4e lore tromped all over previous lore. We have it in 4e lore Corellon created the 'Fey Elves', who were the Eladrin. Nowhere does it say he created the 'regular garden variety elves' anymore, and the stuff about his blood & tears are just hyperbole.

We have a defiinite creation of Eladrin, and then sometime later (after all sorts of deific conflicts and world-breakage), we have 'the Fey' (who we now know in hindsight were the Eladrin) sent 'the elves' (Sylvan/Green elves) to Faerūn (and perhaps other worlds as well, but thats conjecture).

Now, the newer lore not only names two major conflicts the Selarine were preoccupied with at the time when the elves must have been created, but the lore also implies that both Lolth and Gruumsh felt Corellon was not paying enough attention to 'his' children (more-so Lolth than Gruumsh - Gruumsh just took his followers and left). So, when you take all that into consideration, the 'elves' (NOT Eladrin) were created at a time when Corellon would have been least-likely to have been involved.

HOWEVER, in the new sourcebook coming out - Mordenkainen's Guide to Stuff (or whatever) - they ARE going to be delving into the ancient, primal history of the Elves, and the conflicts between Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth. So we may not have much to argue about very soon, because we may be getting a definitive answer to a lot of things...

Which I both love and hate at the same time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 00:22:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  01:29:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I was thinking about Gruumsh today (he is a sexy beast, after all) , and it occurred to me that he may not have been an orc himself (or an orc god) - we could possibly spin it as a 'stepbrother' kind of thing between him and Corellon.

Here are my thoughts - when the Fey Elves began to expand into the Giant-lands in the Wilderlands (future feywild), many of the giants simply fell back (it was a huge plane, after all), or retreated to other worlds (the Feywild is full of gates to such worlds). Plus, many of the True Giants (Jotunbrūd) may have been under some kind of mandate from Annam to do so (settle the newly forming prime Worlds before anyone else does). In fact, I am even thinking that perhaps it was supposed to be temporary - their stay in the Feywild. Whatever..

But the two most powerful groups of Jotkyn (Giantkin) were the Fomorians, and the Cyclopses, both highly magical in nature (these are the 'planer' variety, not the prime-world garden-variety, so MUCH bigger, stronger, and smarter), and they refused to leave. They held their ground, and losses were great on both sides. until Corellon met with the mighty king of the Cyclops - Gru-Mass, or 'wild spirit'. He made a deal with him - if they would take the side of the fey in the war, he would bestow godhood on Gru-Mass, and call him 'brother' (or you could spin it that Gruumsh was a 'battle captive', and thus was being fostered by the Seldarine - such things were done among nobility in olden days). And so the treacherous (according to other giants) Cyclopsi turned on their giant kindred, and smashed the vast Fomorian Empire. The Cyclops would never be trusted again among other giants, and over time, they lost their power over Rune Magic, and became a primitive folk. The sorcerous Fomorians were broken, and they retreated, as had the other giants before them. And thus it remained until the last few centuries, when the Fomorians began to come out of hiding and are pushing back into Fey lands (this is the situation in 4e).

So Gru-Mass, who becomes Gruumsh, is called 'One Eye' by the Seldarine, and he is made one of them. He begins to care less and less about his own people (as was Corellon's plan), and more and more about the Fey, and even begins to manipulate (physically, for he is now a 'god') some of the smaller fey into shapes similar to the Eladrin. And so, it was Gruumsh who created the elves, NOT Corellon. Corellon, being done done with the war and bored by his stepbrother, looked upon these new 'Fey' with disdain. Surely, Gruumsh realized they could never match the splendor of his Eladrin? The ęlves were also shorter-lived - mortal, in fact, for Gruumsh did not have the power to create other immortals. But they bred like wildfire, and soon outnumbered the other High Fey. And they were 'rougher' - more course then Corellon's beautiful creations.

Gruumsh and Corellon finally had it out over the ęlves, and they fought, but Araushnee intervened. It was only then that Corellon saw what had grown between his paramour and the creature he had taken in out of kindness. He made a decree - that whatever elves wished to be civilized - to learn art and poetry and become things of beauty like the Eldarin, would be 'Seelie', his 'chosen ones'. Those who insisted on remaining brutes should leave the feywild, never to return. Most would make the choice, and those that were true to their creator Gruumsh became known as the Goblyns - the 'Unseelie', and those who stayed and learned the ways of Fey virtues would simply be the elves. Of the lesser fey - the small folk - many of them chose sides as well, but since they lived in the rural places, Corellon dd not have look upon them, and he simply ignored them (thus, small 'Goblyn' {Unseelie} fey were able to remain in the Feywild if they so chose). But the High Goblyns (Hobgoblins) left, and spread through the myriad worlds, following in the footsteps of the giants before them. Some of these continued to follow Gruumsh, and became more 'giant like' over time (less hairy and feral-seeming), and became know as 'Orks' (small ogres in some dark tongue), while others followed their own noble fey leader Maglubiyet, 'the Goblyn king'. And over time, these groups split and resplit, forming entire new subspecies, like the Bugbears who broke from the Hobs, and the green orcs who broke from the greys. Soon there was as many types of goblins and orcs as there were spheres in the ethereal, and some even forgot Gruumsh, and Maglubiyet, or even that they had once been fey.

Also in time, Corellon came to despise the elves, and lit upon a plan - he would tell the elder Fey (Eladrin) to send the elves out into the Prime Worlds, to help destroy the dragons, feigning remorse over what happened with the giants, and how the giants were now embroiled in a war with the powerful reptiles. And so, like the giants and then the Goblyns, even the elves were sent from Faerie - Corellon would abide no imperfections in his world. And Araushnee watched, and she fumed....

The Ondonti were a special case - they were once a group of Orcs who found their way back to the Feywild, and when the fey looked upon them and saw their peaceful ways, they let them stay. Occasionally tribes of Ondonti get too large, and groups would leave through fey-gates back to prime worlds.

Gruumsh and Corellon would fight again, and this time Araushnee would take sides. In fact, the fight will have been at her urging, because she never forgave Corellon for sending the elves away. The Seldarine won the day, thanks to the treachery of Araushnee's own daughter (for she was Corellon's daughter as well). Gruumsh fled the battlefield to fight another day (the Eldarin spreading a false tale of him losing an eye to Corellon's blade), and Araushnee became Lolth, and was sent to the Abyss for punishment. And then he turned on her children, including his own daughter who aided him, and banished them as well, in his anger. For such was the rage of Corellon, the mad tyrant-Estelar of the Feywild. Many gods who had been closely allied with the seldarine withdrew their support that day - even many of the fey deities formed their own, neutral pantheon away from the Horned God.

And so, the greatest secret ever kept by the fey - Eladrin and elves alike - is that it was Gruumsh who created the elves, and protected them. And it was Lolth who tried to provide them with succor. But the elves would have you believe otherwise, for their true history is too painful for them to bare. And the wheels of time march on, forever circling round & round - people of all different races conquering what they perceive as 'savages', to help prop-up their own delusion of their personal nobility. When in truth, it is the vain and jealous who make war upon those who just want to be left in peace, and it is the 'noble savage' who stands up to their brutality. Understand, my friends, that the 'histories' that you have all been taught were written down by elves, long ago. And they lie...

--- Lazarus Ty’miiri, Sage Supreme of the Kulian Tower of High Knowledge

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 01:42:29
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  05:53:34  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, it most likely does, since the 4e lore tromped all over previous lore. We have it in 4e lore Corellon created the 'Fey Elves', who were the Eladrin. Nowhere does it say he created the 'regular garden variety elves' anymore, and the stuff about his blood & tears are just hyperbole.

We have a defiinite creation of Eladrin, and then sometime later (after all sorts of deific conflicts and world-breakage), we have 'the Fey' (who we now know in hindsight were the Eladrin) sent 'the elves' (Sylvan/Green elves) to Faerūn (and perhaps other worlds as well, but thats conjecture).

Now, the newer lore not only names two major conflicts the Selarine were preoccupied with at the time when the elves must have been created, but the lore also implies that both Lolth and Gruumsh felt Corellon was not paying enough attention to 'his' children (more-so Lolth than Gruumsh - Gruumsh just took his followers and left). So, when you take all that into consideration, the 'elves' (NOT Eladrin) were created at a time when Corellon would have been least-likely to have been involved.

-Factoring in the "breaking up" different Elven subraces into different D&D races and having the generic Elven creation myth apply only to those more magically-inclined, and not the more nature-oriented Elves still does not strengthen that hypothesis.

-In order to work with (A) the semi-canon (since we will never be able to say for certain that creation myths of various races are true or not) that says that this Fey deity created this creature and that Fey deity created that creature AND (B) that the Fey Creator Race earned their moniker by introducing all these Fey creatures to Toril, the only thing that rectifies all of that is my hypothesis, that they became included in the Creator Races by opening the portals that led these creatures to Toril. Not that they created them, but that they introduced them. Both A and B are fulfilled. Other explanations that stay true to A or B exist, but nothing fulfills both without mucking around with the facts as we know them right now (the canon definition of creatures as they currently stand, mostly).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  06:20:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as I said, we'll probably know for sure when MToF comes out.

Back when we all worked on the Elven Netbook, the assumption was the 'Fey' (Creator race) was 'different' than the elves. I was even suggesting the Fey gave birth to the Elves - their 'lesser children' when the world got broken somehow (and we didn't even know about the 4e Lattice of Heaven back then). The assumption was simply that there were Fey, and at some point, there were elves. We never thought the fey WERE Elves. We had Fey walking around all over FR and we didn't even know - the Gold & Silver Elves were Eladrin, and Eldarin = Fey (the tall, majestic ones, at any rate).

Gold & Silver were never 'elves' - we just thought they were. Hell, THEY thought they were. Because of their time away from the Feywild, they lost their 'feyness', so they were barely even Eladrin (but yet still Eladrin - Queen Amuiral had a daughter that was quite obviously Fey, and also, we have cases of elves simply extending their lifespans far beyond the norm, for no other reason than they wanted to... that was all it took; the desire. They tapped into their inner, Eladrin, 'Fey'. But regular 'elves' (Sylvan/Green) can't do that. They are what they are - they are a product of the mortal world (Prime Material).

And the concept of 'subraces' no longer exists. There are just three races here - Fey (Eladrin), Elf, and Drow. As it should be - as it was always meant to be, since the beginning of D&D. Everything else is just an 'ethnicity'.

But Rhiannon created the small fey - I hope they don't change that. In 4e/5e context, she could have just been a primal spirit that existed in the Feywild, and then Corellon came along and stole some of her mojo and created the Eldarin. Perhaps Rhiannon and Corellon made the Fey (Eladrin) together... that would be nice.

Hmmmm... If I spin Rhiannon as the original (primal power) name for Angharradh, and then say that instead of her being a tripartite deity, she is actually a multi-aspected deity, and thus, Sehanine (Selūne) and Hanali (Sune) are just aspects of the ancient Rhiannon. When Araushnee came along (who I think is the daughter of Pale Night and something else), she combines with the other two and that's when Rhiannon became Angharradh (which probably means "Corellon's harem" in some ancient tongue).

Then Araushnee gets booted, and he replaces her with a goddess of flying things (another primal spirit, probably), named Aerdrie Faenya. She may have even been part of the Aearee pantheon first. Although Aerdrie is probably just a good-alinged aspect, and there may be others of the same proto-power (Fileet, Tyaa). Hell, she may have even been a captain of the Valkira.

Anyhow, everything else aside - Rhiannon as Angharradh really fixes a lot of things, lore-wise.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 02:27:26
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  16:03:12  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First came the Orcs.

Then spirits came that stole Orc bodies and perverted them into Fey bodies (and other things).

Corellon is an Orc. Those that follow him are Orcs too...they just betrayed their Orcness and were cursed by Gruumsh. That is why Orcs can't breed with Fey/Elves; but Orcs can breed with nearly anything else...they still have the primitive "Faerie" genetic makeup that allows this.

Really Elves are just weak/debased Orcs.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  02:32:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You'll note in RW folklore, fey/fairies/elves are much more 'feral' than they appear in modern fantasy - they have a more bestial lok to them. Most are hairy, and have animal body-parts.

Sounds like Goblyns to me (term stolen from RL, and one that I am now using to mean ALL 'unseelie' fey, from all three tiers (medium, small, and tiny).

Thus, 'goblin' just becomes a sub-group of Goblyn (it makes it all easier to keep separate by spelling it that way, and I don't really like using 'goblinoids', since Orcs have been separate from them for a LONG time.)

But yeah, I think we are definitely onto something here - elves are cheap knock-offs, not the Orcs!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 03:02:50
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