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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:56:37  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah it was really good. By far the best "high level" adventuring system. It even had paths to immortality laid out.

I don't know if you know anything about Mystara, but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world. I'm certain there have been other scrolls here that talked about that a bit.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:06:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The more i hear about that immortals sourcebook the more I love it.

The great thing about Mystara and OD&D (and Gygax's 'vision') was that they were NEVER stupid enough to actually have an Overgod make an appearance. They alluded to the existence of such beings, but also made it clear that "not even the immortals know the truth of such matters".

But then novels became uber-popular, and they destroyed D&D and FR as a game-setting (because authors can do preposterous things over and over - they don't have to care about RW repercussions to any of their 'big explosions'). Game-setting novels should only be set in the past. Thats how WoW does it, and it works perfectly for them.

Obviously Disney came to the same conclusion - the 'shared world' paradigm is eventually self-defeating, because of rampant one-upmanship. Bad enough we had gods all over the place (literally!), but then we got Overgods having polite conversation with Elminster? As an avid reader and 'fanboi', I love that crap. As a GM trying to run RPGs, not so much. It devalues everything else, including people's PCs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 22:08:02
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  01:50:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont allow the immprtal body to leave the home plane but maybe its a personal choice because if you leave then you are more vulnerable to being killed. On your home plane you control the environment and legions of fanatically loyal guardians. Elsewhere it is just you alone.
Eternity Publishing made d20 Immortals Handbook: Ascension and d20 Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, Volume 1 (not sure if they ever published Volume 2). And there was much interest in a 4E Immortals Handbook which apparently turned out to be vaporware. And don't forget the old D&D (circa-2E but not AD&D) "gold cover" Immortal Rules box which inspired it all.

But recall that Tyr appeared in the Realms, Tyr "himself" and no mere avatar, definitely foreign and far away from his home plane, and not alone at all but at the vanguard of a vast and epic army. He arrived with enough backup to install himself as a permanent fixture in the Realms.

[/Ayrik]
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

685 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  02:22:31  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, the idea of "undead gods" always sounded weird to me too. I guess where I'd lean to it is that to me it speaks of power source. Essentially an "undead god" must be pulling from "negative energy" rather than faith energy. I would specify here that there also is a big difference between a god of undead and an "undead god". There's plenty of gods of undead who get their energy through faith.... Orcus was one before he came back as Tenebrous.... However, perhaps "undead gods" are actually pulling energy from the place where vestiges go instead of the negative material plane. Either way, it seems like these "undead gods" aren't dependent on faithful to survive any longer.



I think there's a bit of a disconnect here.

Gods of undeath aren't necessarily undead. Chemosh and Falazure certainly aren't, and Thasmudyan is a baatezu.

Gods who are undead are a bit murkier. Chances are that Mellifleur, Doresain, Velsharoon, Vecna, Kanchelsis and Evening Glory technically aren't even undead anymore; they are gods who were undead (or whatever the hell Evening Glory is) and while their divinities and former natures give them traits according to the type of undead they were, they're outsiders now. Vecna, Velsharoon and Mellifleur may not even have phylacteries; Kanchelsis probably keeps a coffin around only for thematic reasons. Maybe their divinities have altered their respective methods of undeath; I dunno.

Tenebrous is an undead god. He clawed his way out of the grave for revenge, and as a god to boot. He's a spark of divinity that fought its way away from the specter of Death. The dude is basically a dread wraith, just godly.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  02:26:39  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Old D&D had the following "Immortals" products:

1986 The Immortal Rules Box Set (Gold box mentioned by Ayrik)
1986 IM1 The Immortal Storm
1987 IM2 The Wrath Of Olympus
1987 IM3 Best Of Intentions
1992 The Wrath of the Immortals (the box set I've been referring to) - this elaborated on the older stuff which is why I refer to it.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  10:57:00  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world.

Wasn't it more of the opposite?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But then novels became uber-popular, and they destroyed D&D and FR as a game-setting (because authors can do preposterous things over and over - they don't have to care about RW repercussions to any of their 'big explosions').

But the authors are told about what to write by the corporate bureaucrats, who themselves can't write (neither sourcebooks nor novels), but "know better". And what we know of those in general does not exactly inspire high expectations.
quote:
Game-setting novels should only be set in the past. Thats how WoW does it, and it works perfectly for them.
Warhammer fans might disagree with this.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6985 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  12:58:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, the idea of "undead gods" always sounded weird to me too. I guess where I'd lean to it is that to me it speaks of power source. Essentially an "undead god" must be pulling from "negative energy" rather than faith energy. I would specify here that there also is a big difference between a god of undead and an "undead god". There's plenty of gods of undead who get their energy through faith.... Orcus was one before he came back as Tenebrous.... However, perhaps "undead gods" are actually pulling energy from the place where vestiges go instead of the negative material plane. Either way, it seems like these "undead gods" aren't dependent on faithful to survive any longer.



I think there's a bit of a disconnect here.

Gods of undeath aren't necessarily undead. Chemosh and Falazure certainly aren't, and Thasmudyan is a baatezu.

Gods who are undead are a bit murkier. Chances are that Mellifleur, Doresain, Velsharoon, Vecna, Kanchelsis and Evening Glory technically aren't even undead anymore; they are gods who were undead (or whatever the hell Evening Glory is) and while their divinities and former natures give them traits according to the type of undead they were, they're outsiders now. Vecna, Velsharoon and Mellifleur may not even have phylacteries; Kanchelsis probably keeps a coffin around only for thematic reasons. Maybe their divinities have altered their respective methods of undeath; I dunno.

Tenebrous is an undead god. He clawed his way out of the grave for revenge, and as a god to boot. He's a spark of divinity that fought its way away from the specter of Death. The dude is basically a dread wraith, just godly.



Not disagreeing, just pointing out some things. Mellifleur is noted as having numerous phylacteries (he's the first time I recall ever hearing of someone having such, then Harry Potter effectively did it and Aumvor the Undying, etc..). Both Mellifleur and Velsharoon's apotheosis into a god involved a variation on the ritual of becoming a lich, so they were living mortals and went through a transformation that turned them into gods rather than the undead being that they were meant to become.

However, like you say, although they are gods of the undead, and they appear to "look" like liches according to their priests.... they are not "undead gods". Tenebrous is one of the only entities (though I could swear I've heard of another) who were known of as "undead gods". Also, one thing to note with the "undead gods"... Orcus had a "stone god body" in the astral still the whole while that Tenebrous was active. Normally, one would assume that when a god becomes active again, their stone body would "melt away". So, like we were talking about gods being some kind of "multi-dimensional" entities, these "undead gods" are somehow disconnected from this dimension... which even moreso makes having them empowered as beings drawing from the place where vestiges go.... its probably a dimension that gods normally don't touch unless they "die", and like a ghost exists without its corporeal body... an "undead god" can't touch its "stone god body" and must find some other way to awaken it. The idea comparing it to a wraith very much fits.

I would also stress here that there should also be a difference between an "undead god" and god who has had their flesh reanimated (as Gilgeam's was) via necromancy. Its an interesting discussion to have though.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Feb 2018 13:01:45
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

685 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  14:57:21  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.

Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  19:44:49  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world.

Wasn't it more of the opposite?



Nope.

Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres.

In reality is the engine core of a ship from Blackmoor. Basically a super-powerful magical-nuclear reactor. If it exploded the world would explode. The engineer made it implode instead and this turned him into an immortal (basically).

Since then, it has been spewing radiation into the world, altering the old magic into something uniquely Mystara. This is "The Radiance" - refer to the various Glantri sources for more details about that. In general it is like pure magic. I've likened it to pools of radiance in FR.

An "Old One" realized that this radiance could allow people to become immortal without a sponsor - which was a new thing so the Old One did that as an experiment.

Despite the immortals who tried to stop it this eventually happened and the immortal "Rad" was 'born'.

Now... what you're probably thinking of is that by using certain spells of the radiance, Rad and wizards were draining the magic from the world and the more they did that the less magic there was all over. Kind of like magic is a keg and they found a tap :P And then the immortals had their little fight :) And then destroy Alphatia. RSE are not just for the realms it seems :P
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  00:07:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, rather than say that godhood conflicts with the whole 'lich' thing (because IT DOES - A god is its own thing, not a template you slap on something else, just as being a lich, except being a god supercedes being a lich*), we can use those instances of phylactories and even multiple phylactoies to our advantage.

Gods have avatars, and the rule is 'one per DvR point'. Now, since those Avatars are really shards of the god, then one might surmise for each phylactoy a 'lich god' maintains, he loses the ability to cat one avatar - they're literally 'stuck in a bottle' (like a genie). Mummies and their Canopic Jars would work precisely the same way. So here's the deal - becoming a lich might be the easiest way to 'transcend' mortality, but the drawback is, if you ascend to something higher later, you're still stuck with all the lich-baggage, which means a part of your power will always reside in the phylactories. Those become 'holy relics' of your church, and they count as avatars. In the case of demigods, guess what? You're really not much more than just a powerful lich anyway. You get one avatar until you become a higher level 'god', and the essence of your being is stuck in the Phylactory - thats the equivalent of your 'Divine Realm' (a really tiny one, but if it really does work like genies in a bottle, it might be rather nice in there LOL). So your a god, and technically you can look any way you want (by expanding s ome power), but since you didn't give a crap how you looked as a mortal, there is a 99.9% you aren't going to care when you become a god. Thus, 'lich' is just how you look - you're not a lich anymore (or a vampire, or whatever).


*Now, liches themselves - this whole line of reasoning made me think about what a lich - a transcendence of mortality. A lich is actually a type of demipower forced on the universe. But because you aren't a real god, you need 'soulstuff' in lieu of worship to survive. I've been looking for the lore about them getting that from hags, but can't find it (anyone?) Basically, as an artificial god, you need to maintain yourself with some type of energies. However, juts a s mortal can ascend and become an exarch (demi-power), and then eventually (hopefully) move on up to being a full god, a lich has much the same process. Eventually, through sheer force of will and its own vast intelligence, the lich becomes a demilich, which is like unto a god. It is no longer constrained by physicality - it can do whatever it wants. In the hierarchy of the planes, a demilich would therefor be of the same tier as a god (Immortal), but not have any of a god's abilities - it is a 'false god'.

Liches can bypass that process - and some have - by gaining followers and creating their own cult(s), much as any demigod would do. If they managed to get enough of a following, they may 'ascend' just as a mortal does and become an actual deity, rather than a psuedo-god. Thus, their 'lichdom' serves as their 'demi-power' status. if they are unsuccessful, they will still eventually become a demilich and be completely free from the Prime material anyway. Once a lich becomes a god, it is no longer really a lich. It may still prefer to have the appearance of one, but it can also appear any way it likes, if it so wishes. It is still restrained by the number of Avatars it can make by the number of its phylactories (which in normal cases is only one). It cannot get around this by any normal means - the process of becoming a lich and bypassing the normal path of ascendancy precludes this. You 'took a shortcut', and now you have to pay for that. Your priesthood is also barred from healing magics - your power derives from the negative aspects of the unerse, not the positive. Positive energy (Radiance/SilverFire) is anathema to you and your minions.

Chosen - if you become a proxy of a god in life, and then become a lich, you can no longer be a proxy to that god. The tiny bit of that god placed within you is transferred back to the god in question. However, as with all things in the universe, if the god is also an evil god you may still choose to serve it, but only as any underling-god, not as its Chosen. A portion of that god's power CANNOT be placed within you unless it is also empowered by negative energy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  00:18:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres. <snip>

This is pretty cool - I had the Glantri book, but I don't think I ever did more than flip through it quickly - I figured "just another kingdom of mages" and ignored it. Now I wish I hadn't done that.

It seems to me that it affected Raw Magic, which is the same exact stuff everywhere (every sphere and plane). Mortals can't handle that stuff directly, so they always have to have some sort of 'intermediary' controlling the flow. On Toril we have the Weave. In Eberron, they have those three dragons and their 'shards' that act as filters. In Greyhawk, they have the 'Web of Lies' (actually, I just made that one up LOL... but you get the idea). On Athas, whatever form their 'Magical Filter' took, it collapsed.* These things are also empowered by the magic they filter, and if you drain too much (defiling), the 'Weave' collapses. Normally gods (and Overgods) handle the maintain of that interface 9and the rules that govern it), but on Mystra, apparently, it happened 'by accident'. Instead of having and sort of 'magical' web', the planet has the 'Radiance' - purified magical energy readily available.

This, of course, leads me to believe the 'filter' is getting VERY dirty. If Raw magic is composed of both the positive and negative aspects, and its filtering out the Negative Energy, than all the negativity has to be going somewhere...

...Ravenloft?

Also, Golarion (Pathfinder) has something similar - there is a big ol' rock you can touch and become a god (or die trying). Three people have been successful so far.

*EDIT:
I think nearly all other planes (dimensions, really) ave this sort of thing 'built in', because nearly all planes have their own magic - the plane itself filters the 'Raw' energies. Thats how things born of the 'planestuff' that we always talk about (that theoretical 'planestuff' is just a physical manifestation of those energies being filtered). Thus, the Feywild has 'Fairy magic' of its own - the plane itslef is its own 'Weave'.

This makes me think that the Prime Material is somehow 'broken'... which it is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 00:40:16
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6985 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  05:14:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.

Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer.



Which since it was part of the same exact ritual that brought him to godhood, one could consider it to be part of the same thing (essentially like the same thing that happened to Mellifleur).

Where's the hunefer from? Epic level handbook or something?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6985 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  05:18:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres. <snip>

This is pretty cool - I had the Glantri book, but I don't think I ever did more than flip through it quickly - I figured "just another kingdom of mages" and ignored it. Now I wish I hadn't done that.

It seems to me that it affected Raw Magic, which is the same exact stuff everywhere (every sphere and plane). Mortals can't handle that stuff directly, so they always have to have some sort of 'intermediary' controlling the flow. On Toril we have the Weave. In Eberron, they have those three dragons and their 'shards' that act as filters. In Greyhawk, they have the 'Web of Lies' (actually, I just made that one up LOL... but you get the idea). On Athas, whatever form their 'Magical Filter' took, it collapsed.* These things are also empowered by the magic they filter, and if you drain too much (defiling), the 'Weave' collapses. Normally gods (and Overgods) handle the maintain of that interface 9and the rules that govern it), but on Mystra, apparently, it happened 'by accident'. Instead of having and sort of 'magical' web', the planet has the 'Radiance' - purified magical energy readily available.

This, of course, leads me to believe the 'filter' is getting VERY dirty. If Raw magic is composed of both the positive and negative aspects, and its filtering out the Negative Energy, than all the negativity has to be going somewhere...

...Ravenloft?

Also, Golarion (Pathfinder) has something similar - there is a big ol' rock you can touch and become a god (or die trying). Three people have been successful so far.

*EDIT:
I think nearly all other planes (dimensions, really) ave this sort of thing 'built in', because nearly all planes have their own magic - the plane itself filters the 'Raw' energies. Thats how things born of the 'planestuff' that we always talk about (that theoretical 'planestuff' is just a physical manifestation of those energies being filtered). Thus, the Feywild has 'Fairy magic' of its own - the plane itslef is its own 'Weave'.

This makes me think that the Prime Material is somehow 'broken'... which it is.



In Mystara that artifact was a nuclear reactor of some sort.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

685 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  06:12:17  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.

Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer.



Which since it was part of the same exact ritual that brought him to godhood, one could consider it to be part of the same thing (essentially like the same thing that happened to Mellifleur).

Where's the hunefer from? Epic level handbook or something?



The hunefer's from the ELH.

The phylactery thing is a bit murky. Velsharoon's phylactery should be in Gehenna, so Cyric's attack on Mystra should have ended with Velsharoon grumpily respawning in Death's Embrace. I have this fridge-horror idea where Velsharoon let his physical form die and his undead spirit jacked the Simbul's body, using her as his phylactery.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  09:20:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure if this is the thread we were talking about where Bane himself came from (New Bane), and a few people said he was not from Toril, and he may even be from Nerath (because Nerath has its own myths about him).

But just NO. I forgot - he is one of the earliest gods mentioned in the 4e lore; he predates just about everyone and everything else. He could not have been born on a prime World unless that world was the First World (before there were Crystal Spheres). So even if our current (5e) Bane is the Core (4e) Bane, then he would be just an aspect from some other world, and that world could possibly be Nerath. I believe Krash pointed out that Ed hinted at Bane being an interloper in a novel (but if he is from Nerath, and Nerath's Bane IS an ascended mortal, then he is no more the 'One True Bane' than our old Bane was, or Xvim). the 4e lore has him involved with the Shard of Pure Evil, which was a pivotal moment in the Before-Time (its when corruption from theOtherverse first entered the D&D verse). Thats kind of a major thing to just sweep under the rug at this point.

Too bad they used the name 'Bane' - why the hell couldn't they have just come up with something else in 4e? Hextor wasn't good enough? Now we're stuck with this crazy lore - he's the only one that keeps breaking the rules I create. LOL

EDIT:
I forgot - I had come to this same conclusion once before, and there's actually a very simple - if odd - solution. 4e didn't happen when we think it did. Oh, sure, on Abeir-Toril maybe (and Boy, howdy!)

Buuuuuuuut... what if Nerath is part of the central lands of Midgard, the First World? What is that isn't part of a planet at all - its just a tiny section of nigh-infinite plane? I've been using my Black Moorians (changed it a little to avoid any possibly copyright issues) for my proto-humans, but what if the Nerathi were the first? Hell, I can even say the 'Black Moors' are someplace else that was part of the great Nerathi empire (or Nerath itself could have been a survivor-state of something even greater, which probably would make more sense given its own history and how'd I'd like to spin the human creators).

Yes, thats it... Nerath was but a pale shadow of the glories of Elder Thonia, The Golden Empire.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 09:42:32
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  13:19:57  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why is it people think Bane is not old Bane? I thought that was the whole idea of the "rebirth"
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3889 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  13:45:52  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The symbol is different and the behaviour of fzoul is different and the doctrine of the church is now different. Since the canon is daft and allows gods to directly interact with their worshippers then Bane must have demanded the change in symbol directly and be causing fzouls different behaviour and the change in doctrine of the church of Bane, or by not demanding it be altered now he approves of the new changes which either way means Bane is different.

Of course if the gods cannot directly interact then these differences are easily explainable as the orthodox church of bane and the church of xvim merge and conciliations are made by both parties to allow them to unite. And fzoul is slowly descending into madness and megalomania. But thats not canon.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  14:33:49  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The symbol is different and the behaviour of fzoul is different and the doctrine of the church is now different. Since the canon is daft and allows gods to directly interact with their worshippers then Bane must have demanded the change in symbol directly and be causing fzouls different behaviour and the change in doctrine of the church of Bane, or by not demanding it be altered now he approves of the new changes which either way means Bane is different.

Of course if the gods cannot directly interact then these differences are easily explainable as the orthodox church of bane and the church of xvim merge and conciliations are made by both parties to allow them to unite. And fzoul is slowly descending into madness and megalomania. But thats not canon.



Can you tell me the source of this so i can read it?
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  15:11:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you look at faiths and pantheons and compare it to faiths and avatars it should show the differences.

With regarda to fzoul and the church, Bane was always about supporting tyrants not the church being the tyrant. When fzoul embraced iyachtu xvim he ousted manshoon and became the tyrant of the zhentarim. He then tried uniting all branches of the church of Bane (orthodox, non orthodox and the church in threskel) while spreading the zhentarim to try and dominate as much of faerun as possible. He was trying to be the tyrant of everything. This continued past xvim and into Banes church.
Cloak and Dagger gives good info on xvim and fzoul.


If you are looking for overt statements about the church and fzoul and how it differs from before then you wont find any but there are subtle changes and the actions are always more telling.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  15:14:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Why is it people think Bane is not old Bane? I thought that was the whole idea of the "rebirth"



Here's some bits of oddness with Bane 2.0.

Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.

Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Bane 2.0 favors green and black. Iyachtu Xvim, the Baneson, also favors green and black.

There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.

The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands. Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to. The strategy worked: most of them did convert to Bane.

Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.

So, Xvim's worshippers, whom he would want to retain while masquerading as someone else, received a vision directing them to worship the reborn Bane, who uses Xvim's colors, Xvim's favored manifestations, and who does not use Bane's old holy symbol.

And this is what got me to thinking.

There are three possible conclusions:

1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit. It is my opinion that this is unlikely enough to be dismissed.

2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.

3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.

Of course, it's all theories. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture I find pleasing, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Feb 2018 15:16:19
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Markustay
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  22:09:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plus, (according to Krash because I didn't read it), Ed Greenwood hinted that Bane - the current one that 'came back' in 4e - is NOT 'of this world' (an outsider/interloper).

So everything in the past (RW lore we've gotten) always indicated that Bane - our Bane - came from Toril. Of course, nothing said that definitively, but nothing every pointed the other way, either. In 4e, Bane changes, Fzoul changes (he doesn't even ike pasta anymore! ), the symbol for his church changes, and then we have this 4e 'Core' Bane muddying the waters, and Ed's subtle hints.

Now, if they don't say this is what happened, and just chalk it up to "things change', then they will have missed a golden opportunity to expalin-away some of the stuff they avoided explaining in 4e.

Personally, I think almost none of the returnees are actually the same gods, but that's just how I want to spin things in my homebrew. They have left a lot of things purposefully vague so that each DM/fan can spin things to their own preferences, and that's okay. Here at CK, this is what we do - share our 'kewl ideas' for what might have been.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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