| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 00:18:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres. <snip>
This is pretty cool - I had the Glantri book, but I don't think I ever did more than flip through it quickly - I figured "just another kingdom of mages" and ignored it. Now I wish I hadn't done that.
It seems to me that it affected Raw Magic, which is the same exact stuff everywhere (every sphere and plane). Mortals can't handle that stuff directly, so they always have to have some sort of 'intermediary' controlling the flow. On Toril we have the Weave. In Eberron, they have those three dragons and their 'shards' that act as filters. In Greyhawk, they have the 'Web of Lies' (actually, I just made that one up LOL... but you get the idea). On Athas, whatever form their 'Magical Filter' took, it collapsed.* These things are also empowered by the magic they filter, and if you drain too much (defiling), the 'Weave' collapses. Normally gods (and Overgods) handle the maintain of that interface 9and the rules that govern it), but on Mystra, apparently, it happened 'by accident'. Instead of having and sort of 'magical' web', the planet has the 'Radiance' - purified magical energy readily available.
This, of course, leads me to believe the 'filter' is getting VERY dirty. If Raw magic is composed of both the positive and negative aspects, and its filtering out the Negative Energy, than all the negativity has to be going somewhere...
...Ravenloft? 
Also, Golarion (Pathfinder) has something similar - there is a big ol' rock you can touch and become a god (or die trying). Three people have been successful so far.
*EDIT:
I think nearly all other planes (dimensions, really) ave this sort of thing 'built in', because nearly all planes have their own magic - the plane itself filters the 'Raw' energies. Thats how things born of the 'planestuff' that we always talk about (that theoretical 'planestuff' is just a physical manifestation of those energies being filtered). Thus, the Feywild has 'Fairy magic' of its own - the plane itslef is its own 'Weave'.
This makes me think that the Prime Material is somehow 'broken'... which it is. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 00:40:16 |
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 05:14:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.
Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer.
Which since it was part of the same exact ritual that brought him to godhood, one could consider it to be part of the same thing (essentially like the same thing that happened to Mellifleur).
Where's the hunefer from? Epic level handbook or something? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 05:18:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres. <snip>
This is pretty cool - I had the Glantri book, but I don't think I ever did more than flip through it quickly - I figured "just another kingdom of mages" and ignored it. Now I wish I hadn't done that.
It seems to me that it affected Raw Magic, which is the same exact stuff everywhere (every sphere and plane). Mortals can't handle that stuff directly, so they always have to have some sort of 'intermediary' controlling the flow. On Toril we have the Weave. In Eberron, they have those three dragons and their 'shards' that act as filters. In Greyhawk, they have the 'Web of Lies' (actually, I just made that one up LOL... but you get the idea). On Athas, whatever form their 'Magical Filter' took, it collapsed.* These things are also empowered by the magic they filter, and if you drain too much (defiling), the 'Weave' collapses. Normally gods (and Overgods) handle the maintain of that interface 9and the rules that govern it), but on Mystra, apparently, it happened 'by accident'. Instead of having and sort of 'magical' web', the planet has the 'Radiance' - purified magical energy readily available.
This, of course, leads me to believe the 'filter' is getting VERY dirty. If Raw magic is composed of both the positive and negative aspects, and its filtering out the Negative Energy, than all the negativity has to be going somewhere...
...Ravenloft?
Also, Golarion (Pathfinder) has something similar - there is a big ol' rock you can touch and become a god (or die trying). Three people have been successful so far.
*EDIT:
I think nearly all other planes (dimensions, really) ave this sort of thing 'built in', because nearly all planes have their own magic - the plane itself filters the 'Raw' energies. Thats how things born of the 'planestuff' that we always talk about (that theoretical 'planestuff' is just a physical manifestation of those energies being filtered). Thus, the Feywild has 'Fairy magic' of its own - the plane itslef is its own 'Weave'.
This makes me think that the Prime Material is somehow 'broken'... which it is.
In Mystara that artifact was a nuclear reactor of some sort. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 06:12:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.
Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer.
Which since it was part of the same exact ritual that brought him to godhood, one could consider it to be part of the same thing (essentially like the same thing that happened to Mellifleur).
Where's the hunefer from? Epic level handbook or something?
The hunefer's from the ELH.
The phylactery thing is a bit murky. Velsharoon's phylactery should be in Gehenna, so Cyric's attack on Mystra should have ended with Velsharoon grumpily respawning in Death's Embrace. I have this fridge-horror idea where Velsharoon let his physical form die and his undead spirit jacked the Simbul's body, using her as his phylactery. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 09:20:01
|
I'm not sure if this is the thread we were talking about where Bane himself came from (New Bane), and a few people said he was not from Toril, and he may even be from Nerath (because Nerath has its own myths about him).
But just NO. I forgot - he is one of the earliest gods mentioned in the 4e lore; he predates just about everyone and everything else. He could not have been born on a prime World unless that world was the First World (before there were Crystal Spheres). So even if our current (5e) Bane is the Core (4e) Bane, then he would be just an aspect from some other world, and that world could possibly be Nerath. I believe Krash pointed out that Ed hinted at Bane being an interloper in a novel (but if he is from Nerath, and Nerath's Bane IS an ascended mortal, then he is no more the 'One True Bane' than our old Bane was, or Xvim). the 4e lore has him involved with the Shard of Pure Evil, which was a pivotal moment in the Before-Time (its when corruption from theOtherverse first entered the D&D verse). Thats kind of a major thing to just sweep under the rug at this point.
Too bad they used the name 'Bane' - why the hell couldn't they have just come up with something else in 4e? Hextor wasn't good enough? Now we're stuck with this crazy lore - he's the only one that keeps breaking the rules I create. LOL
EDIT:
I forgot - I had come to this same conclusion once before, and there's actually a very simple - if odd - solution. 4e didn't happen when we think it did. Oh, sure, on Abeir-Toril maybe (and Boy, howdy!)
Buuuuuuuut... what if Nerath is part of the central lands of Midgard, the First World? What is that isn't part of a planet at all - its just a tiny section of nigh-infinite plane? I've been using my Black Moorians (changed it a little to avoid any possibly copyright issues) for my proto-humans, but what if the Nerathi were the first? Hell, I can even say the 'Black Moors' are someplace else that was part of the great Nerathi empire (or Nerath itself could have been a survivor-state of something even greater, which probably would make more sense given its own history and how'd I'd like to spin the human creators).
Yes, thats it... Nerath was but a pale shadow of the glories of Elder Thonia, The Golden Empire.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 09:42:32 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 13:19:57
|
| Why is it people think Bane is not old Bane? I thought that was the whole idea of the "rebirth" |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 14:33:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The symbol is different and the behaviour of fzoul is different and the doctrine of the church is now different. Since the canon is daft and allows gods to directly interact with their worshippers then Bane must have demanded the change in symbol directly and be causing fzouls different behaviour and the change in doctrine of the church of Bane, or by not demanding it be altered now he approves of the new changes which either way means Bane is different.
Of course if the gods cannot directly interact then these differences are easily explainable as the orthodox church of bane and the church of xvim merge and conciliations are made by both parties to allow them to unite. And fzoul is slowly descending into madness and megalomania. But thats not canon.
Can you tell me the source of this so i can read it? |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 15:14:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Why is it people think Bane is not old Bane? I thought that was the whole idea of the "rebirth"
Here's some bits of oddness with Bane 2.0.
Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.
Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Bane 2.0 favors green and black. Iyachtu Xvim, the Baneson, also favors green and black.
There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.
The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands. Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to. The strategy worked: most of them did convert to Bane.
Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.
So, Xvim's worshippers, whom he would want to retain while masquerading as someone else, received a vision directing them to worship the reborn Bane, who uses Xvim's colors, Xvim's favored manifestations, and who does not use Bane's old holy symbol.
And this is what got me to thinking.
There are three possible conclusions:
1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit. It is my opinion that this is unlikely enough to be dismissed.
2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
Of course, it's all theories. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture I find pleasing, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Feb 2018 15:16:19 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 22:09:48
|
Plus, (according to Krash because I didn't read it), Ed Greenwood hinted that Bane - the current one that 'came back' in 4e - is NOT 'of this world' (an outsider/interloper).
So everything in the past (RW lore we've gotten) always indicated that Bane - our Bane - came from Toril. Of course, nothing said that definitively, but nothing every pointed the other way, either. In 4e, Bane changes, Fzoul changes (he doesn't even ike pasta anymore! ), the symbol for his church changes, and then we have this 4e 'Core' Bane muddying the waters, and Ed's subtle hints.
Now, if they don't say this is what happened, and just chalk it up to "things change', then they will have missed a golden opportunity to expalin-away some of the stuff they avoided explaining in 4e.
Personally, I think almost none of the returnees are actually the same gods, but that's just how I want to spin things in my homebrew. They have left a lot of things purposefully vague so that each DM/fan can spin things to their own preferences, and that's okay. Here at CK, this is what we do - share our 'kewl ideas' for what might have been. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2018 : 05:52:05
|
Starting, once again to try to read the old Ask Ed Scrolls, I came across this bit about the baneliches:
If any of the Bane Liches are still left, they'll be completely insane. I'd treat them as megalomaniacal local lords or "robber baron" types, dominating tiny communities or outlaw bands in the wilderlands. Either that, or skulking around the sewers of Waterdeep or similar hideaways. Anywhere else, and their unstable "conquer all" tendencies will have led them into battle and eventual destruction long since. The problem with the Bane Liches is that their need to be tyrants far oustrips any prudence or power they possess.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Baneliches
