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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  18:11:11  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Does anyone know if any baneliches were ever detailed other than in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set? By that I mean specific personalities, not the redone stats for the monster books.

Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  19:13:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Does anyone know if any baneliches were ever detailed other than in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set? By that I mean specific personalities, not the redone stats for the monster books.



There was one in the novel Finder's Bane.

For the most part, though, they were presented as generic monsters and then killed off, offscreen.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  00:34:02  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Does anyone know if any baneliches were ever detailed other than in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set? By that I mean specific personalities, not the redone stats for the monster books.



There was one in the novel Finder's Bane.

For the most part, though, they were presented as generic monsters and then killed off, offscreen.



Yeah - I'm reversing that :D

The wording about them in the Cloak and Dagger sourcebook is:

Hidden baneliches in Hillsfar, Phlan, Tantras, Yhaunn, Talbegg, and Marsember explode as their power is ripped from them.

Now, those locations make up a very specific region, which leaves the vast majority of Faerun - where Bane has been worshipped a long time - to have as many baneliches as we want. :)

I've decided to make a cabal of baneliches - all former High Imperceptors like the one we met in Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set. They are old school Banites - the orthodox Church if you will.

I'm just wondering if there were any included in a product I don't know of. The one you mentioned was the body Bane possessed that was destroyed pretty much right away, right?
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Ayrik
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  01:26:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I offer this insight:

A lich's existence beyond life and beyond death is based on arcane mastery. Magical power sustains him and gives him purpose, he is compelled to increase his inhumanly arcane knowledge and power.

A banelich's existence beyond life and beyond death is based on faith in Bane. Bane's power sustains him and gives him purpose, he is compelled to serve Bane's inhumanly divine will and power.


So I think a "faith-lich" has an unswerving, unfaltering, fanatical conviction of faith which is unattainable by mere mortals. A faith so strong that it defies death itself, it perhaps even imprisons the "immortal" soul within a (dead) worldly vessel. Not unlike an Exarch/Chosen, in terms of raw faith if not in raw power.

A banelich in particular serves Bane, the god of tyrants, and so would intrinsically understand that the god (Bane) decrees a certain order to the universe (where the strong are meant to rule the weak) in which existence serves a specific purpose (to impose and enforce Bane's ultimate authority) in specific roles within this (Bane's) cosmic/worldly hierarchy.

Woe to those who foolishly oppose an undying Imperceptor of Bane!

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Feb 2018 01:43:08
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  01:41:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The wording about them in the Cloak and Dagger sourcebook is:

Hidden baneliches in Hillsfar, Phlan, Tantras, Yhaunn, Talbegg, and Marsember explode as their power is ripped from them.

Now, those locations make up a very specific region, which leaves the vast majority of Faerun - where Bane has been worshipped a long time - to have as many baneliches as we want. :)




True, but the areas mentioned are where his faith has been the strongest -- and thus, these areas are far more likely to have baneliches.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that baneliches couldn't exist elsewhere. But I'm thinking it's unlikely, since they're tied to his faith and thus unlikely to be found in areas where his worship was not dominant.

It's the same reason you're unlikely to find a high-level druid living in Zhentil Keep: there's no reason for him to be there.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  14:45:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It only names 6 cities. It doesn't even name Zhentil Keep if you look closely... so the ONE AND ONLY banelich we knew about might still be there in his subterranean hideout. :P It would seem a huge oversight if that's not the intention.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  15:44:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It only names 6 cities. It doesn't even name Zhentil Keep if you look closely... so the ONE AND ONLY banelich we knew about might still be there in his subterranean hideout. :P It would seem a huge oversight if that's not the intention.



It also says they were hidden in those cities... So a theoretical one in Zhentil Keep could have been entirely out in the open.

That said, I still think it's really unlikely to find former High Imperceptors in places where Bane wouldn't have been worshiped enough to even have a temple.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  20:22:09  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I think it was Monsters of Faerun during the 3e era that had Baneliches, but I don't really know if it presented any new information on them, as opposed to just giving them updated 3e stats.

-Was never a fan of them being something "different" as opposed to just regular Liches, or some other kind non-lich of Undead.

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  20:44:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, here's the thing about liches - every single one of them is SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT. Thats one of the most basic premises of the creature. They all found different 'paths' to lichdom, have different goals and attitudes, and although the majority of people who would choose this path are evil by nature (because no normal person would want to spend eternity with chunks of meat rotting off them), you could have the full spectrum of alignments. And they could even have different powers (best exemplified by Van Richten's Guild to the Ancient Dead, which INCLUDES greater mummies... because those ARE liches! A very specific type).

And then 'designers' come along and say, "Hey! Ya knows these guys here that are ALL different, no two alike? I'm going to create a specific subgroup of them... even though the lore already allowed for all of that to exist anyway!" (because I have to come up with five more monsters for the next splat and I am all out of ideas and late for my next 'kickboxing' session). Granted, a lot of lich subtypes were actually Ed's idea, but I don't think they needed actual MM entries. Whats a Baelnorn? Its a good, elven lich that became a lich to help protect some part of elven heritage. THERE... DONE. Whats a Banelich? Well, its a lich that serves Bane (and he helped them become liches). THERE - DONE

Whats an archlich? Its a lich that enjoyed McDonalds so much while it was alive, it decided to extend its life so it can eat more McDonalds. DONE... oh, wait... errrr... that's a 'good' lich. My bad.



(and the point of that was that I had to actually make a joke just to extend the definition past the TWO WORDS it would have taken.)

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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 20:48:31
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  23:45:32  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I think it's in terms of D&D mechanics.

-I mean, that can be said of almost any "empowered somehow" creature, that no two are alike. No two mummies are the same (created by a priest of Anubis, created by a priest of Ra, created by a priest of Osiris, etc.), no two ghosts are the same (minor presence, major presence, a little malevolent, very malevolent, etc.), blah, blah, blah. I never really saw why some variations got to be specialized monsters and others didn't. You definitely could fill an entire theoretical book with different versions of this, or that, but that's obviously impractical. In terms of just Banelich, I never liked that it wasn't presented as just a Lich that worships/worshiped Bane, but a whole separate "monster".

-Baelnorn bother me a little bit like that, but I can get I guess that they're a little different because there's the whole good vs. evil thing going on, and being Elves that went against the taboo and became undead for a positive reason.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  01:06:21  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Update - excerpt from the timeline of Cloak and Dagger

1370 DR, Hammer 11-20: Manshoon hears about the events in Mulmaster, and hears that the beholders there are working with Fzoul. Rather than risk confronting him (and potentially a god) directly, Manshoon sends spies against Fzoul and Selfaril. He also discreetly sets up a meeting with a banelich to use against the priest of Xvim.

This is the Banelich that attacks Fzoul openly and is destroyed by the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings, Faram Khaldan, former High Imperceptor of Bane.

The instigator is Manshoon - one of him anyway.

Now lets assume he didn't stop with just one Banelich, but instead sought say a dozen of them out. He gets the Baneliches who are busy doing what liches do in their catacombs to get together and start acting to oppose the Heretic Xvimlar. Something THEY do is what causes the later "Bane-birth" - killing off the pretender and restoring the one true Bane to his full glory. This is what I'm going to start writing up for my home-brew. There is no evidence either way in any source I've read recently (which goes through every mention of these topics and Zhents from 2nd to 5th ed).

Now - as for the extent of Bane's worship - he was "the most widely worshipped" of the evil gods before the TOT. This says to me you can get Baneliches all over. The office of High Imperceptor is kind of like the office of Magister - it goes to the current most powerful priest of Bane. I see no reason to assume this would be limited to the Moonsea region. This stuff comes from Faith and Avatars.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  01:14:52  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I think it was Monsters of Faerun during the 3e era that had Baneliches, but I don't really know if it presented any new information on them, as opposed to just giving them updated 3e stats.

-Was never a fan of them being something "different" as opposed to just regular Liches, or some other kind non-lich of Undead.



Baneliches come from 2nd E - Ruins of Zhentil Keep box. They are different enough from the standard lich that the MC card was worthwhile in my mind.

They get 2 paragraphs in the 3rd E Monsters book that doesn't really do them any justice at all.

Of note to this topic, one line of that 2nd Ed MC entry read:

"records have revealed signs of at least 35 Baneliches coming into existence, and the deaths of only 10 have been documented."

If we assume 6 to 12 baneliches were consumed by Fzoul's ritual (I'd argue 6 but I'm willing to be flexible for Wooly :P), that still leaves at least a dozen in existence.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  05:18:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Update - excerpt from the timeline of Cloak and Dagger

1370 DR, Hammer 11-20: Manshoon hears about the events in Mulmaster, and hears that the beholders there are working with Fzoul. Rather than risk confronting him (and potentially a god) directly, Manshoon sends spies against Fzoul and Selfaril. He also discreetly sets up a meeting with a banelich to use against the priest of Xvim.

This is the Banelich that attacks Fzoul openly and is destroyed by the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings, Faram Khaldan, former High Imperceptor of Bane.

The instigator is Manshoon - one of him anyway.

Now lets assume he didn't stop with just one Banelich, but instead sought say a dozen of them out. He gets the Baneliches who are busy doing what liches do in their catacombs to get together and start acting to oppose the Heretic Xvimlar. Something THEY do is what causes the later "Bane-birth" - killing off the pretender and restoring the one true Bane to his full glory. This is what I'm going to start writing up for my home-brew. There is no evidence either way in any source I've read recently (which goes through every mention of these topics and Zhents from 2nd to 5th ed).

Now - as for the extent of Bane's worship - he was "the most widely worshipped" of the evil gods before the TOT. This says to me you can get Baneliches all over. The office of High Imperceptor is kind of like the office of Magister - it goes to the current most powerful priest of Bane. I see no reason to assume this would be limited to the Moonsea region. This stuff comes from Faith and Avatars.



Most widely worshiped does not mean a temple in every city.

And the most powerful priest of Bane is not going to be in some little backwoods village, he's going to be in a major city where Bane is openly worshiped -- part of having that kind of power is flaunting it and using it openly.

The highest ranking priest is going to be where Bane's worship is strongest, where there is a hierarchy for said priest to rise to the top of, and where they can make sure everyone knows who the top dog is.

And where are the places Bane is most openly worshiped? Where are these hierarchies? In the Moonsea area.

Again, I'm not saying that they can't be elsewhere -- but it's just not likely that the most powerful priest of a god of tyranny is going to be anywhere where he has to keep a low profile.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  05:46:38  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Moonsea is where Bane is most openly worshipped in the 1000s through 1300s. There are a lot of years before that :P

Check this bit from the Ruins box:

Stallac Benadi, First Imperceptor of Bane (735-844 DR): First and greatest follower of Bane, invested with the title of Imperceptor by the avatar of the Lord of Strife himself. Seventh in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.

Tomar of Bane, Second Imperceptor of Bane (801-877 DR): Most ruthless of all Imperceptors, Tomar’s greatest achievement was the introduction of a deadly plague into the Western Heartlands, causing the deaths of thousands. Eighth in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane. WESTERN HEARTLANDS

Harr Santolic, Third Imperceptor of Bane (848-966 DR): Following in the footstep of his predecessors, Harr Santolic is attributed
with the rise in the church of Bane in the Western Heartlands. AGAIN WESTERN HEARTLANDS

Wedic B’donder, Fourth Imperceptor of Bane (901-1010 DR): A savage Imperceptor, who brought the worship of the Lord of Strife to full blossom within the walls of Zhentil Keep. Last in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.

The "First and greatest" line has to be taken with a grain of salt because that is what Stellac claims in his history. Also, we can infer that the "greatest gift of Bane" is the that they were made Baneliches, as that date 1010 DR corresponds to the date when Bane created the last Banelich. So, this tells us that there were 6 Baneliches in existence BEFORE 844 DR and that they were not High Imperceptors because they predated the office. Also we know that both Stellac and Wedic were based in Zhentil Keep, but that prior to about 1000 DR the area was not the center of Bane's worship.

Also remember that most temples of Bane are hidden, because the other faiths gather en masse when such temples are revealed and are seen as powerful. I'd bet on Hidden temple in every major city that does not have an open temple. I'd also bet that many of the leaders of these temples are powerful enough to hold their own in a dangerous environment.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  15:15:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, this conversation makes me want to have Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaugh of Mourktar become a banelich using the artifact/relic known as the Black Lord's Cloak as his phylactery, maybe in the years leading up to the Spellplague. Then sending Mourktar to Abeir (the assumption here being that the Mourktar mentioned in the brotherhood of the griffin novels is a "New Mourktar" that was built by refugees from Mourktar following the spellplague), he would be a very unique type of lich to the Eminence of Araunt. His preaching of Tyranny as well, in which lesser undead would be his soldiers no doubt, would probably also not be a welcome viewpoint to the Eminence of Araunt. Of course, the question becomes does he reveal his lich features to the people of Mourktar.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  15:51:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The Moonsea is where Bane is most openly worshipped in the 1000s through 1300s. There are a lot of years before that :P

Check this bit from the Ruins box:

Stallac Benadi, First Imperceptor of Bane (735-844 DR): First and greatest follower of Bane, invested with the title of Imperceptor by the avatar of the Lord of Strife himself. Seventh in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.

Tomar of Bane, Second Imperceptor of Bane (801-877 DR): Most ruthless of all Imperceptors, Tomar’s greatest achievement was the introduction of a deadly plague into the Western Heartlands, causing the deaths of thousands. Eighth in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane. WESTERN HEARTLANDS

Harr Santolic, Third Imperceptor of Bane (848-966 DR): Following in the footstep of his predecessors, Harr Santolic is attributed
with the rise in the church of Bane in the Western Heartlands. AGAIN WESTERN HEARTLANDS

Wedic B’donder, Fourth Imperceptor of Bane (901-1010 DR): A savage Imperceptor, who brought the worship of the Lord of Strife to full blossom within the walls of Zhentil Keep. Last in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.

The "First and greatest" line has to be taken with a grain of salt because that is what Stellac claims in his history. Also, we can infer that the "greatest gift of Bane" is the that they were made Baneliches, as that date 1010 DR corresponds to the date when Bane created the last Banelich. So, this tells us that there were 6 Baneliches in existence BEFORE 844 DR and that they were not High Imperceptors because they predated the office. Also we know that both Stellac and Wedic were based in Zhentil Keep, but that prior to about 1000 DR the area was not the center of Bane's worship.

Also remember that most temples of Bane are hidden, because the other faiths gather en masse when such temples are revealed and are seen as powerful. I'd bet on Hidden temple in every major city that does not have an open temple. I'd also bet that many of the leaders of these temples are powerful enough to hold their own in a dangerous environment.



Great, so 4 out of 35 are not in the Moonsea. That still doesn't prove that the rest wouldn't be in the area where Bane's worship is strongest.

And a tyrant does not hide.

You can obviously do what you want, but just because something is possible doesn't mean it isn't highly unlikely.

Either way, I don't think this is going anywhere, so I'm out.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  16:28:17  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just think your interpretation of both Banites and Baneliches is off base. Of all the groups of Bane that we know of more than half are in hidden temples. They are hidden because they haven't succeeded at becoming rulers. Just because tyranny is among Bane's portfolio doesn't mean the only ones that worship him are tyrants. He would have almost no followers and would thus be limited in power to a very few. Also, I'd argue in the Realms, the best tyrants we know of are the hidden ones - take the twisted rune for example. Definitely tyrants, controlling from behind the scenes and destroying those who oppose them.

The other tenants of Bane are Hate and Strife. These can happen anywhere anytime. Obviously, groups who's goal is to create strife will be largely unpopular but possibly very successful.

Since we know there were 35 baneliches, and in all of published FR lore we have never heard of more than 11 of them and have only ever seen 2 in action - and both one of those two were hiding in secret locations deep beneath Zhentil Keep, and 6 more that were mentioned as destroyed were in hiding elsewhere, I think that it would be obvious that most if not all remaining baneliches are hidden. Otherwise there would be another 25 entries for them in the GHotR of how the high pries of Bane at the time became a lich and tried to take over the world.

Finally, we have the Secret Temples - one of the maps we have been given: The description reads:

Sinister temples to Bane, and later Cyric, can be found in many villages and cities across Faerūn. These temples are hidden from the eyes of the general populace because the worshipers of evil deities rightfully fear retribution by the forces of good. Many of these temples are hidden beneath warehouses or the residences of lords and nobles, or are squirreled away deep within a city's sewer system. The worshipers of these wicked gods protect their shrines with dogged perseverance. Only others of their faith are welcome; all others will be offered up as sacrifice to their deity as punishment for intruding.

I'd argue that at least half of the major cities in Faerun would have a temple to Bane - a hidden one. When the Banites struggle year after year, decade after decade to dominate the cities political machine and install themselves or their puppets as tyrants.


Where I'm going with this is simple. We know that the Manshoon clones all looked for different ways to grab power and several of them also looked for ways to strike at Fzoul. What if the one who convinced Faram to attack Fzoul openly then decided to seek out other baneliches. They would all oppose Fzoul because he is a heretic, not an orthodox Banite. They don't attack openly, but instead start working against him and his god. He basically creates a northern twisted rune of Baneliches in the Heartlands. He supports this power by introducing his magelings and creating a new Banite/Mage zhentarim. This gets supported by the beholders (who are always hidden too, btw :P) because they like Bane. Bippity Boppity Boo we have a new Zhentarim. A little more hidden than the old one because now Manshoon has to worry about the other Manshoons.
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dazzlerdal
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The Orthodox Church of Bane (the one based out of Mulmaster) was actually all bout supporting tyrants rather than being the tyrants.

It was only Fzoul's non orthodox church that advocated himself being the supreme tyrant and that was likely his own personal vanity trip.

If tyrants are succeeding then the church of bane grows in power (because they are supporting the tyrants).

Im with Masked Mage in that lots of Baneliches would survive because evil is only stoopid in WoTC's interpretation of the realms. Baneliches are former High Imperceptors that have been infused with divine power (Bane's divine power). It would not be clever to put oneself out in the open where do-gooders might off you or evil doers might steal your power.

Im pretty sure Ed has commented on Baneliches before and said that more than a few were not created by the Church of Bane (they found a way to steal that power) and they would definitely have gone into hiding.

Why waste a great plot hook like survivng Baneliches because of some deus ex machina .

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Markustay
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So everyone is just going to ignore Thay, or the rest of the Unapproachable East? (and I would include the Hordelands in that as well, because all of the 'Dark Three' are mentioned in The Horde material).

In the novel series, the Bane church was being portrayed as being 'above' Kossuth's (which I found odd). Heck, Szass Tam even summoned Bane (something dozens of far more powerful liches have never been able to accomplish, BTW). Of course, it we put a bunch of Baneliches there - which fits the 'feel' of the place perfectly - one has then wonder as to who those liches answer to - Bane, or Szass Tam?

And could Larloch possibly have control of a few? Could our 'current' (1e/2e/3e period) info on them be 'light' on Western Heartlands Liches because Larloch sought them out and enslaved them? That could be our answer right there - Bane's church may have been much more omnipresent pre-1200's, but between the rise of civilization in the region (major settlements getting rid of their Banite temples), and Larloch going around and capturing their 'nukes' (Baneliches), that could have caused a massive reversal of power for the Banites, and they had to settle for the Moonsea - their original main base of operations.

While we are discussing Bane, were there any Bane-like powers around before he reared his head? Like, who did the Netherese, Jhaamdath, and calimshan have in their pantheons? I mean, the OE had Set (not quite the same thing but he fills the niche), but everywhere else was there a vacuum?

Or did everyone just forget about a god... or group of gods? (something to do with the Dawn Catclysm perhaps?)

There is (core) canon proof Bane has been around 'since the beginning', and now that there is no such thing as 'core' (its all just 'D&D canon' now), that becomes part of OUR canon, so bane was always around, but not present in the realms. Why would that be? Was he just someone else before (an alias), or did something happen to the original Bane and everyone just forgot? (like what happened to Kiaransalee, or what Ao attempted to do with himself... which didn't work... which seems to imply what mortals did had more power than Ao... but lets just ignore that little thing).

And the reason why my brain even went there is because there might be more ancient Baneliches that people don't even realize were Baneliches. Ones that no longer have to answer to the 'upstart' Bane (just like how chosen of Mystyl seem to just be left 'hanging out to dry' when she came back as Mystra). You rally ant to stretch things? Say that Acerarak is a 'failed' Banelich (although I think I just read somewhere that he was a worshiper of Orcus while he lived...)

Too bad he isn't a devil instead... I could have had a LOT of fun with that. Orcus as an 'undead' aspect of THE Bane (The multispheric, Estelar Bane from 4e lore). Of course, demons and devils have switched sides before... Orcus... Bane looks kinda Orcish... Hmmmmm... Orcus was also a mortal once, which I just found out. A Servant of Asmodeus corrupted by Gruumsh... hmmmmm... thats one I have to ponder on.

Maybe... ALL liches were Baneliches... Maybe Bane invented the process, and the others are just the 'knock-offs'.

EDIT:
And then there is the Tenbrous... the first Orcus 'died', and then something was left, and that 'something' was the Tenebrous, which became the Orcus we know of today. So maybe Orcus was a 'Bane'. We don't know his mortal name or much about his pre-Orcus existence - and the thing that survived was a badly corrupted piece of divinity (Godshard), which was the Tenebrous. It wasn't until after this 'come back' that he becomes Orcus. So what if he was a Chosen of someone else, and that little fragment of divinity within him is what survived, thus Orcus is something akin to an Atropal (an 'undead' Godshard that became its own thing).

So perhaps this 'Tenebrous' was the very first lich? And after that, maybe Bane saw the usefulness in those kinds of servants and created the Baneliches?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2018 19:14:02
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  20:26:14  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Netheril didn't really have anyone in the pantheon that would fit. Amaunator, maybe you could make the case. He was a lawful deity and was considered harsh, so if you take that to the extreme, you can kind of see some of Bane's harsh lawful militancy. If you consider that Amaunator may have morphed into At'ar the Merciless, the Bedine deity, there apparently was plenty of malice in there (I always think of the Sun from Mario 3 when I think of At'ar.

-Jhaamdath, we really don't know but I found a thread where George K suggested, among other deities, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud. Given that Bane killed Borem and that's how he gained divinity, it could definitely be that Borem's portfolios were similar to Bane's.

-Calimshan, there's Anachtyr. Assuming he's similar to Tyr, like Amaunator, the militant aspects of following the law and all that could result in a strict extremist deity.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 04 Feb 2018 20:27:03
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  02:54:37  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes it would also make sense that there were Baneliches in the east. We know for a fact that the east is where the biggest congregation of Banites is in late 2nd Ed. I would assume with no real evidence to support the assumption) the same is true of earlier years.

I focus on the Western heartlands because that's where I focus on everything. :P
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Brimstone
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  04:14:56  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane did/does have a presence in the Lake of Steam area...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  06:18:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Bane did/does have a presence in the Lake of Steam area...

I wonder if the Twisted Rune would allow a banelich to join?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Shadowsoul
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Weren't Baneliches basically Bane's Chosen of Mystra where as they each held a portion of Bane's divinity? Basically a get out of death free card.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  14:48:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So everyone is just going to ignore Thay, or the rest of the Unapproachable East? (and I would include the Hordelands in that as well, because all of the 'Dark Three' are mentioned in The Horde material).

In the novel series, the Bane church was being portrayed as being 'above' Kossuth's (which I found odd). Heck, Szass Tam even summoned Bane (something dozens of far more powerful liches have never been able to accomplish, BTW). Of course, it we put a bunch of Baneliches there - which fits the 'feel' of the place perfectly - one has then wonder as to who those liches answer to - Bane, or Szass Tam?

And could Larloch possibly have control of a few? Could our 'current' (1e/2e/3e period) info on them be 'light' on Western Heartlands Liches because Larloch sought them out and enslaved them? That could be our answer right there - Bane's church may have been much more omnipresent pre-1200's, but between the rise of civilization in the region (major settlements getting rid of their Banite temples), and Larloch going around and capturing their 'nukes' (Baneliches), that could have caused a massive reversal of power for the Banites, and they had to settle for the Moonsea - their original main base of operations.

While we are discussing Bane, were there any Bane-like powers around before he reared his head? Like, who did the Netherese, Jhaamdath, and calimshan have in their pantheons? I mean, the OE had Set (not quite the same thing but he fills the niche), but everywhere else was there a vacuum?

Or did everyone just forget about a god... or group of gods? (something to do with the Dawn Catclysm perhaps?)

There is (core) canon proof Bane has been around 'since the beginning', and now that there is no such thing as 'core' (its all just 'D&D canon' now), that becomes part of OUR canon, so bane was always around, but not present in the realms. Why would that be? Was he just someone else before (an alias), or did something happen to the original Bane and everyone just forgot? (like what happened to Kiaransalee, or what Ao attempted to do with himself... which didn't work... which seems to imply what mortals did had more power than Ao... but lets just ignore that little thing).

And the reason why my brain even went there is because there might be more ancient Baneliches that people don't even realize were Baneliches. Ones that no longer have to answer to the 'upstart' Bane (just like how chosen of Mystyl seem to just be left 'hanging out to dry' when she came back as Mystra). You rally ant to stretch things? Say that Acerarak is a 'failed' Banelich (although I think I just read somewhere that he was a worshiper of Orcus while he lived...)

Too bad he isn't a devil instead... I could have had a LOT of fun with that. Orcus as an 'undead' aspect of THE Bane (The multispheric, Estelar Bane from 4e lore). Of course, demons and devils have switched sides before... Orcus... Bane looks kinda Orcish... Hmmmmm... Orcus was also a mortal once, which I just found out. A Servant of Asmodeus corrupted by Gruumsh... hmmmmm... thats one I have to ponder on.

Maybe... ALL liches were Baneliches... Maybe Bane invented the process, and the others are just the 'knock-offs'.

EDIT:
And then there is the Tenbrous... the first Orcus 'died', and then something was left, and that 'something' was the Tenebrous, which became the Orcus we know of today. So maybe Orcus was a 'Bane'. We don't know his mortal name or much about his pre-Orcus existence - and the thing that survived was a badly corrupted piece of divinity (Godshard), which was the Tenebrous. It wasn't until after this 'come back' that he becomes Orcus. So what if he was a Chosen of someone else, and that little fragment of divinity within him is what survived, thus Orcus is something akin to an Atropal (an 'undead' Godshard that became its own thing).

So perhaps this 'Tenebrous' was the very first lich? And after that, maybe Bane saw the usefulness in those kinds of servants and created the Baneliches?



The Netherese had Jergal, who gave up the portfolio to Bane.

I'd be very hesitant to make Tenebrous the first lich. He's always been a bit of a quandary to me since I heard of him, so I'm not sure what to do with him, but I still wouldn't make him the first lich. He reminds me more of like "the black flame" that fuels Suel Liches, but even that doesn't sound right. He feels like a possessing spirit of some sort who takes over a body to further certain end goals and then leaves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Brimstone
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  15:14:56  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Bane did/does have a presence in the Lake of Steam area...

I wonder if the Twisted Rune would allow a banelich to join?


Didn't Mr Schend leave three spots open in the Rune for the DM to fill out(The 2E GLORY DAYS!)?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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