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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2019 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  02:44:02  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My only qualms about the clone/duplicate is they would look more similar. The reasons for people thinking they are the same would be "he looks like Elminster!" instead of they are both ancient powerful know it all mages.

As for the Jekyll & Hyde idea my issue would be that someone (like Manshoon or the Chosen of Mystra) would notice that when Hesperdan is out and about Elminster is missing and vice versa.

I think I prefer an accidental magical mind-link. Maybe Hesperdan used some special mind-reading magic on El, but his silver fire, or the Mythal, or Mystra or whatever caused him to instead get a full dump of memories / lore / etc. Then El says, I need to destroy this evil guy because he knows too many secrets and Mystra forbids it because she now has 2 Elminsters for the price of 1. One her pet meddler and another a covert operative that does dirty work when it becomes necessary. In order to limit the danger Hesp. poses El confronts him and they reach their agreement, based on mutual benefit and reachable because El can slightly manipulate Hesperdan by referring to secrets known only to the gods and these two archmages.

This would make Hesperdan a weave master like El and the Srinshee, which puts him right up there for the most powerful wizard in the realms. If he's working for Mystra, ostensibly to build a brotherhood of mages in the Zhentarim who share magic and always strive to find both new and old magic to ascend their ranks, that would go a LONG way toward explaining their organization and his relationship with Manshoon.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2019 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  23:11:51  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Weredragon thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Not sure if it's been posted here, but check this out from TheEdVerse: https://twitter.com/garethgarfoot/status/1007426825130270721

Short stats for Hesperdan Human (Weredragon) m W26 LE

Hesperdan was a black dragon. We also have mention of Tharaela, Blood of Thauglor and she may be one too. THO's post above confirms male weredragons in the Realms and maybe Hesperdan too, though I'm not sure if he used magic like Vangey to take dragon form and gain weredragon status.

I assume a human and weredragon coupling would be a humanoid child. And since it hasn't been stated otherwise, a pair of weredragons in dragon form may well be able to have a clutch of eggs that are all weredragons too.

I was curious about the clutch of eggs part, since I had a picture in my mind of a female weredragon in human form leading her hatchlings (in human form they're children) through Suzail or another city to some known building or destination. Since nothing seems to say otherwise, I think I'll just say it is so. :)



I went ahead and read the pertinent parts of Elminster Enraged. So, Hesperdan openly states that he and Elminster mind melded. He then decided to transform himself into a black dragon because he came to the conclusion that Vangerdahast was the biggest danger to the realms. Then the spellplague happened and he kinda became MORE dragon - like it erased part of his Hesperdan self. Ultimately, Elminster bumbled under his lair - uses some long lost spell to make all the magic in the horde go off at once, basically exploding. Later El, hurts him further with a spell that turns mantle/protective magics into a blade, followed by a meteor storm. Then, for no particular reason he shows up and roasts him with silver fire.

As much as I usually like Ed's books, I'm not a fan of this one. For those that didn't read it, it basically amounts to this. El gets mad and then fries away everyone he gets mad at with silver fire - also Symrustar - who was dead as far as we knew, came back, only to die again in order to recharge El's silver fire batteries. El also fries Vamp-shoon to nothing with silver fire. I'm long since bored with silver fire, personally - the previous Sage of Shadowdale novels had me thinking this overuse of silver fire was gone, but nope - how wrong i was. It basically falls under the category of RSE for me.

Getting back to the Zhent topic - as for Hesperdan and Vamp-Shoon this means one of few things as far as I can tell. 1) they are permanently dead and gone 2) they are disembodied spirits (I think a Hesperdan Dragon Ghost that knows how to "ride" and possess people like Old Ghost would be cool) 3) they had some kind of post-death contingency magic, like a Pact with Velsharoon or a demon or something 4) they get resurrected or wished back into life.

I guess also possible is the other over-used switcheroo plot device Ed likes. Hesperdan realizes he's going to die and does the fancy double teleport / transform magic to switch himself with another dragon. Unlikely - but since its happened like 5 times in the past I figured I'd include it.
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Gareth
Seeker

United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  23:31:44  Show Profile Send Gareth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I read it, Hesperdan chose to take up dragonshape watch over Vangerdahast (as in "I am gonna live as a dragon now"), not that he became a Dragon at that point- other lore has stated that Hesperdan often dissapeared for many years and I'd assume that was time he was off in Dragonform. Also one of the KoMD books, Hesperdan makes a comment about being "patient anyway" (or words to that effect) after a comment about being a patient man.

Vampshoon is back in "The Herald" set about 8 years later, and then in Spellstorm.

I think its in Spellstorm that its mentioned that he has more clones ready (along with gems near them containing memories and information), so I think its fair to say that the Vampshoon in The Herald is a clone of Vampshoon who was destroyed in EE.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1390 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  23:45:12  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've sorta had the impression that WotC wants the major power players gone from the Realms. Maybe that carried over from the 4E era. If that is the case, I imagine Ed would want to be the one taking them out, on his own terms. Or at least take them off the playing table for the time being. I'm just guessing of course. :)

He did subsume all the Simbul's power which drove him a tad a bonkers while we was flitting about nuking things. No way that would have happened without her giving her life to save his. And we all fresh out of Simbuls and Srinshees.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2019 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2018 :  18:16:39  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading through Hesperdan's death, I immediately began trying to think of an interesting way for my favorite Zhentarim other than Manshoon to NOT be dead. Here's what I came up with:

Before assuming the form of the black wyrm Alorglauvene, Hesperdan crafted an intricate chain contingency to ensure his survival should he ever be overcome by his enemies. This magic was set to be activated under any of the following conditions: upon Alorglauvene’s death; upon the loss of his mental faculties; upon the destruction of his body; or upon his utterance of the word “Vadrigal.” Should any of these conditions be met, the following contingencies would be activated in order, one per round, each with a casting time of 1 segment: 1) magic jar – shifting Hesperdan’s life force into a special receptacle: a statuette of a dragon grasping an orb; 2) teleport object – relocating it to Iyrauroth’s hoard in mount Glimmerfang, in the Giantspike Mountains west of Ylraphon; 3) feeblemind – cast upon the most powerful draconic being within 300 yards; rendering the victim all but helpless to being occupied by Hesperdan’s life force. As a result, rather than being destroyed by Elminster’s silver fire, the spirit of Alorglauvene occupied the body of “the Wyrm of the Peaks.” He has since renewed these contingencies.

As a result, Hesperdan is back to his old self (no longer more dragon in spirit than old archmage) and we can all go about our day without any major canon being violated. All the following remain true:
- Alorglauvene / Hesperdan was killed by Elminster's gout of silver fire.
- Elminster thus believe's Hesperdan destroyed
- Iyrauroth still survives - he just has a different spirit and his own is either in the statuette or has found a new host... I think Hesperdan would give him a weaker host to occupy... like a pseudodragon or something and dominate him into servitude.
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