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The Silver Sage
Seeker

17 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  15:35:04  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Im planning to do a mission wherein the PCs are hired as extra security for the council of gods. My intent behind this is for the PCs to overhear, and gain a better understanding of the cataclysmic events leading to the campaign ending. With that in mind, where might all of the deities of FR gather to discuss such important events? Itís my understanding that the Gods often convene in a place called the Pavilion of Cynosure? However, Iím finding remarkably little information online about it. I know that they held the trial of Cyric the mad there. And I know they can summon Ao there. But otherwise I donít have any idea:

What it looks like?
Where is it located within the planes?
Where can I find more information about it?
How many deities are required to summon Ao?
Under what circumstances would Ao care?
Who or what might be stupid/ reckless enough to attack a meeting full of gods?
Ect.

Any information/ideas about it would help. Thanks.

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  16:42:10  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think the Gods would need security...they are the Gods.

Cynosure is a Pocket Plane...a Demi-Plane. It is seen differently by any God that is inside it. Talos might see a raging storm all around him, while Chauntea would be in a field of wheat perhaps.

Ao can't be summoned so much as perhaps asked. Ao doesn't care about anything other than the obligations of the Gods as far as anyone knows.

NOBODY would be reckless enough to attack all the Gods...except maybe all the Gods from another place or a bunch of Primordials.

I'm rather certain that cynosure is only for gods...

AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31300 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  18:28:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I don't think the Gods would need security...they are the Gods.

Cynosure is a Pocket Plane...a Demi-Plane. It is seen differently by any God that is inside it. Talos might see a raging storm all around him, while Chauntea would be in a field of wheat perhaps.

Ao can't be summoned so much as perhaps asked. Ao doesn't care about anything other than the obligations of the Gods as far as anyone knows.

NOBODY would be reckless enough to attack all the Gods...except maybe all the Gods from another place or a bunch of Primordials.

I'm rather certain that cynosure is only for gods...



Malik went there, in Cyric's pocket; it's why he's cursed to only speak the truth.

But I'd agree that the gods wouldn't need mortal security. It's unlikely that a deity would need protection from someone that any deity could squash like a bug.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1876 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  18:52:46  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You would definitely need to come up with some other reason why they need to be there. Hired muscle makes no sense.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31300 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  19:40:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
However... There have been canon meetings, in the Realms, betwixt avatars, like at Godswalk Keep.

Even that is kinda high power, though. Me, if I was going to stage something like this, I might consider having a meeting of several high-ranking priests, all acting as temporary proxies. That gives the meeting, with the gods kinda-sorta there, but in the mortal realm and where security could be a concern. It does not address, though, why any of that would be necessary.

As an alternative, perhaps the PCs could be in a position to overhear a very senior, very favored priest explaining the whole thing to one of his underlings.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  20:20:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want them there as hired muscle then have them there as hired muscle. The gods lie, their priests lie, when it comes to the gods its all lies built around halftruths and misdirection. That's what Ed has said anyway.

They get hired as muscle but why they are really there may be for something else entirely (if only to just bear witness to events) and that will likely remain unknown to them until they have fulfilled their true purpose to the manipulative parasites that are the deities.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6623 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  12:54:43  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A council of gods "hires" an adventuring party to perform some task.

All gods are part of this council? If so, they are using the adventurers to accomplish something none of them can otherwise accomplish. Something beyond the power of the gods.

But if the adventurers are needed to accomplish something that is not beyond (ie: is within) the power of the gods then the council of gods cannot accomplish it because they are being opposed by some other god(s). And if another god or group of gods has a conflicting agenda then they might employ their own "adventuring" party to do what is needed.

All gods can lie or misinform or deceive their agents. As can any other gods who oppose them. Except, perhaps, any specific god(s) who represent things like truth and honesty. But mortals basically can't even tell which god(s) they're dealing with, anyhow, let alone any "truths" such gods might choose to conceal or distort.

To be honest, I think de-escalating things so that the PCs merely deal with "Kings" instead of "Gods" would seem more realistic. But it's not my place to tell others how they're supposed to have fun, lol.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2018 13:07:07
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  14:16:51  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something the gods cannot achieve is simple. They cannot make a choice. They are beings of belief made manifest, they have no freewill, they are formed entirely from the beliefs of other people.

So you want the pcs to have a purpose at this gathering. They are there to bear witness and ultimately make a choice. Each god will only choose on accordance with what his followers believe he should do so that is not impartial. The pcs make the final decision as mortals with freewill

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6623 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  14:57:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mortals have self-determination while gods do not? That would explain gods being constrained to deterministic outcomes, fates, prophecies, divinations, and the like. But it is an awesome advantage for mortals to possess, they'd be able to impose their own choices and free will onto the universe and defy the gods. It might also explain why sometimes "the future is clouded" to both the gods and to all those mortal oracles who rely upon divination through the gods. But surely the gods would know how "powerless" they are against fate (even if mortals do not), why else would they call such a council and require these mortals, and how would they avoid the paradoxes (continue to exist) when challenged by lack of faith in mortals?

Bane: "Cower before me, brief mortal!"
PC: "Nah. I've decided you're NOT a god."
Bane: "Ah, then I can choose to destroy you!"
PC: "Nah. On second thought, I've decided you ARE a god."
Bane: "Ah, then I have the power to destroy you!"
PC: "Nah. I had a vision while praying, I saw you let me go unharmed. At least that's what I choose to believe. Can't argue with faith or with fate."
(etc)

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2018 15:07:03
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  15:11:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasnt envisaging something that simple
Its more that most of banes followers believe he is the ultimate tyrany so in a council bane will always make the tyrannical decision. Mystra will always choose to safeguard the weave. Eldath will always choose the peaceful option. Etc etc

Any council would always end up the same, with the same non consensus and same arguments because the gods can never be anythinh beyond what they are believed to be.

A mortal on the other hand can make any choice they want. They can be influenced yes but they do not have to make the same choice over and over again. Even an evil man may decide to perform a selfless kind act just once. Ilmater could never decide to let others suffer, tyr could never decide to be unjust and unfair.

So the conclave becomes a meeting where the gods make their statements and argue endlessly knowing that they can never reach consensus among themselves, while a group of mortals watch. When the mortals finally grow tired and intervene and make a decision that is when their purpose is revealed (or maybe afterwards when all the gods suddenly obey the decision of such mortals).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31300 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  15:59:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would disagree about the gods not having free will. Just because they'll always act in the best interest of their portfolio doesn't mean they make no decisions outside of their portfolio, or that they'll never have two equally good choices for their portfolio, or anything like that.

It's like saying a CEO has no free will because he's got to do what's best for his company.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  21:54:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually the analogy i was thinking is more like the company itself has no free will.

A company is made up of lots of people that individually have free will but when put together the company as an entity will always act in the interest of the company.
A god is only the sum of its faithful's belief and will always act as you would expect. Its the tradeoff for having immortality and limitless power.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31300 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  04:24:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Actually the analogy i was thinking is more like the company itself has no free will.

A company is made up of lots of people that individually have free will but when put together the company as an entity will always act in the interest of the company.
A god is only the sum of its faithful's belief and will always act as you would expect. Its the tradeoff for having immortality and limitless power.



I still don't see that being bound to follow a particular course of action in regards to one specific thing means there is no free will. A deity having to always act in the best interest of their portfolio doesn't mean they aren't free to do what they want in other matters, and it also doesn't mean that they aren't free to decide what is best for their portfolio.

If there was no free will for deities, Cyric as the Lord of the Dead would have acted exactly the same as Myrkul, who would have acted exactly the same as Jergal, and Kelemvor would have been a carbon copy of all three.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  09:15:11  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well ill admit the change is probably more gradual as the newly ascended god loses his sense of self but the gods have been portrayed sooo poorly it seems foolish to take them as written.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6623 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  16:51:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The company analogy is interesting. Companies and corporations are often formed or dissolved with specific and immediate objectives. These accomplish some objective, whatever they were created to do (in some legal or financial context), then they get discarded or absorbed by larger companies. Some of these never even "exist" in the real world, no employees or payroll, no inventory or assets or liabilities, no offices, no letterhead, nothing other than whatever documents or contracts or paper-trail they needed to provide.

Is this part of the analogy applicable to deities as well? Can the gods form and un-form aspects or manifestations of their divine power, with or without "real" worshippers, whenever needed?

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31300 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  17:23:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The company analogy is interesting. Companies and corporations are often formed or dissolved with specific and immediate objectives. These accomplish some objective, whatever they were created to do (in some legal or financial context), then they get discarded or absorbed by larger companies. Some of these never even "exist" in the real world, no employees or payroll, no inventory or assets or liabilities, no offices, no letterhead, nothing other than whatever documents or contracts or paper-trail they needed to provide.

Is this part of the analogy applicable to deities as well? Can the gods form and un-form aspects or manifestations of their divine power, with or without "real" worshippers, whenever needed?



My particular analogy was in regards to those companies that have employees and a payroll, and persist year after year -- big companies, with multiple interests, like GE, or even companies like Boeing with a very specific interest but still multiple concerns within that specific interest.

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