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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  02:54:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The three nearly-blind hags - Fates, Norns, Graeae, whatever - often have to share one eye, sometimes also one tooth. Is this the only eye they have left after "sacrificing" their other (five) eyes to some Well of Knowledge?
Is it Odin's eye? Gruumsh's eye? Vecna's other eye?
(The thought of orcish Gruumsh-hags or lichy Vecna-hags is unsettling, lol.)
In something else I wrote around here recently, I have it where the Graea(sp?) share Odin's eye, because I am trying to marry all the mythos together.

he went to them for wisdom, and that was the price they asked. Only a 'gods eye' can be shared in that manner.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sfdragon
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  03:14:47  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tell you it was lolth who took Gruumsh's eye, she disguised herself as corellon to do it

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Ayrik
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  04:07:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay,

But your attempt to marry all the mythos together doesn't explain how the three hags obtained Jergals's tooth! Only a "god's tooth" can be shared in this manner.
Unless maybe they've somehow obtained dentures, from Gond or from otherworldly sources.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  12:24:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another Norse deity, Hodur, was blinded as punishment for "accidentally" murdering Baldur (as the unknowing instrument of Loki). It was the only way he could "atone" for his grief and it provided him great insights and self-reflection afterwards.



You had good arguments, and I'm not trying to refute them.... but wasn't Hodur already blind? I thought that's the whole reason that Loki was helping him aim and such. Or is there some other variation on the myth.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  20:08:56  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  20:43:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.



That argument breaks down with Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.

My thinking is that wounded gods stay that way because either they can't simply ignore major wounds inflicted by someone as strong or stronger than them, or because their followers believe they bear the wound.

I'm skeptical that orcs would have believed Gruumsh was wounded unless someone they trusted -- like a tribal shaman -- said it, so Gruumsh's missing eye is due to it being a major wound inflicted by a deity at the same power level or higher.

I'll note, too, that these wounds are ones a mortal would not simply heal from. Lesser wounds, yes, those can be willed out of existence -- if it'll heal on a mortal, it'll heal on a deity. It seems to me that there is some significance to this.

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:21:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, here's the thing - then why do some gods appear 'badly'? Missing limbs and what not? I am not saying I disagree with you; in fact, I been shouting the same thing from the rooftops for years (gods are just 'energy', and the center of their consciousness is actually their Divine Domain - you are literally 'inside their head' at that point). I mean, I can understand maybe why Myrkul wants to look like a scary skeleton dude, but why would Talona want to look like a shriveled gross thing? And we have at least three gods missing eyes, two missing limbs (D&D, not just FR), etc, etc. And some even have 'extra' body parts - arms and eyes (and yet, human). And then we have Corellon, who is androgynous (I see them stressing that point in the videos about the upcoming MtoF). We also have several 'gods' who have both male and female aspects (mostly the primordials, coincidentally enough), and also many that have aspects of more than one 'race'.

Which is why there must be MORE to it than that. This is why I sing the virtues of the Dogma Theory - that mortal preconceptions actually affect the 'reality' around them. That the Gods themselves will appear however the group viewing them thinks they should (and it is entirely possible that individuals within the same group - if its a mixed group - will see different things). In other words, its just like an illusion - you see what you expect to see.

Now, to wax metaphysical for a moment, EVERYTHING is an illusion. If magic can not only change physical matter and energy, and 'gods' can split planets in two and change the course history (go back and alter the timeline), and even affect people's memories so they recall things differently - all of which there are canon examples of - then what is our definition of 'real', within the D&Dverse? What is 'death', for that matter? Other than a reassignment of your native plane?

When the First World was being created, those primordial gods just snapped their fingers and things came into existence. If the didn't like it, they snapped their fingers and changed stuff. They could make and unmake anything. And because time itself wasn't a thing back then, when they 'unmade' something, then it never existed in the first place (is your head starting to hurt?) So if these (uber)gods can do all this, then isn't the universe itself a giant sandbox? To be torn down and rebuilt? And mortals won't even remember the way it was before? Isn't that kind of the definition of 'illusions'? Everything is just an ultra-high level illusion spell - one you would have to be Overgod+ class to 'disbelieve'. Things are only 'real' so long as those ancient, Elder gods want them to be.

All that being said, Gruumsh does not have any eyes - he is energy. So is Tyr and anyone else 'missing parts'. We see what we expect to see... UNLESS the deity purposely concentrates on over-writing the 'default' mode (which probably takes energy - the more people involved, the more energy it would have to expend). Gods can do this easily - Cyric doing this to trick some poor bastard at the beginning of Prince of Lies is just one example (and if Cyric was more experienced at godhood, he probably could have seen through Mask's charade as well). Everything takes energy to change, though, so gods will normally just let everything be taken at 'face value'.

Gettng back to Gruumsh & Corellon; canonically, its patently ridiculous at this point - in a post-4e lore world - to even think either of those had any sort of physical forms that could have been harmed. Both of them were Elder Gods - they preexisted the prime Material world, and thus preexists the concept of physicality. Had they been ascended mortals, I could have made the argument that "what happened to you while you were mortal sticks with you when you become divine", and I actually used to think that way about these two. 4e put an end to all of that - we KNOW neither of them were ever mere mortals. Even in that crazy myth I wrote about Gruumsh creating the elves, my idea was that he was an arch-giant (a Jotun), so he was already 'above mortal' when all that would have happened (one of those Empyreals, which are like primordial-class exarchs).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 21:51:00
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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:51:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Way back when I started working on the Kara-Tur thread on the WotC boards (before 4e showed up and sucked the life right out of the room), I had an idea for a trio of goddesses 'of fate' for the Shou, like an Asian version of the Norns. However, for each of the three I had it where they were aspects of already-existing gods from elsewhere, and one of them was Araushnee the Weaver, who was the one that appeared as a young girl. Thus, my idea was that even Lolth could have aspects that are contrary to her normal appearance and demeanor, because there are enough Shou to empower that aspect.

A RW example of this phenomena, BTW, is called Pareidolia, and a lot of research is being done on it, because we are finding out our minds 'fill in the blanks' far more often than we thought (which has a HUGE bearing on 'eye-witness testimony' - it's actually garbage). Not only can our minds see things that aren't there, it can also 'unsee' things which our brains tell us shouldn't be there (which is far more problematic when you truly think about the implications of that). "These aren't the droids you are looking for" indeed.

So you see what you expect to see, even in the RW. Thats why Grumsh has a missing eye, and is a cyclops, all at the same time. If he appeared to me, he'd probably be wearing a top-hat, be wearing a monocle and tuxedo, and want to go to the opera.

EDIT
And by extension, this is also probably responsible for The Mandela Effect - if large enough groups of people 'interpret' images to be similar (even if incorrect), that becomes 'the new reality'. Its part of the whole 'higher awareness' (mob mentality) thing we humans have lost easy access to.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:51:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

... Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.
Mask continued to survive, or at least most of Mask did.
Maybe that's enough "benefit" it itself after an encounter with the Chaos Hound.

And Mask has always been a strange and complicated god. Even when he was depicted as a bumbling opportunist in the Avatar novels, long before he was depicted as a cool manipulator in the Twilight War novels. Maybe Mask actually likes being forced to live by his wits and stay on the run, a purpose of his existence being defined and fuelled by his ability to not only "survive" but to even "prevail" under duress ... keeping his ad-hoc, on-the-fly, improvisational abilities honed to a fine edge for his edgy portfolio, lol. A thief can lose everything by letting his guard down for even a moment, a god of thieves must emphasize this quirky strength/weakness to the extreme.

A little odd, I agree, that Kezef is a Wolf instead of a Pig. But "fantasy genre" yes?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2018 21:53:16
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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:11:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You lost me there - why should Kezef be a pig?

You know, every time I read the title of this thread, I get a picture in my mind of Forest Gump sitting on a bench, and saying, "it was on a Tuesday..."


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:34:44  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That argument breaks down with Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.

My thinking is that wounded gods stay that way because either they can't simply ignore major wounds inflicted by someone as strong or stronger than them, or because their followers believe they bear the wound.

I'm skeptical that orcs would have believed Gruumsh was wounded unless someone they trusted -- like a tribal shaman -- said it, so Gruumsh's missing eye is due to it being a major wound inflicted by a deity at the same power level or higher.


-I agree with all of that, which is why I don't think that really think that throws a wrench in what I meant. It's a myth, but through five editions of D&D and like forty years of in-game mythos, it's accepted that Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh fought, and Gruumsh was injured by Corellon. That injury, like you said, was grievous damage perpetrated by a deity of equal or greater power.

-What I am saying is, there has to be some kind of benefit for Gruumsh to physically manifest with one eye, to allow his worshipers to refer to him as the One Eye, and so on, if that is indeed the truth of the matter. He could physically manifest with scars all over his body, representing the damage Corellon Larethian did to him, but with two eyes. What good does "playing into the story" do for Gruumsh? Manifesting with two eyes would easily negate the Corellon Larethian put out his eye stories without having to come up with a hokey excuse like "it was always like that". It makes him look like a chump, which is why I say there's got to be something he gets out of it. Orcish unity against everyone else is the best thing I can come up with.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'll note, too, that these wounds are ones a mortal would not simply heal from. Lesser wounds, yes, those can be willed out of existence -- if it'll heal on a mortal, it'll heal on a deity. It seems to me that there is some significance to this.


-Mask's origins and his possibly having once been a mortal, as hinted at at the end of The Twilight War books, could be relevant here.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


All that being said, Gruumsh does not have any eyes - he is energy. So is Tyr and anyone else 'missing parts'. We see what we expect to see... UNLESS the deity purposely concentrates on over-writing the 'default' mode (which probably takes energy - the more people involved, the more energy it would have to expend). Gods can do this easily - Cyric doing this to trick some poor bastard at the beginning of Prince of Lies is just one example (and if Cyric was more experienced at godhood, he probably could have seen through Mask's charade as well). Everything takes energy to change, though, so gods will normally just let everything be taken at 'face value'.


-Refresh my memory: There was a scene in The Avatar Series where the gods went to the Cynosure for a meeting, and Cyric had Malik in his pocket. What did he see?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Feb 2018 22:41:41
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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:36:03  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.



Based on how non-avatar battles between gods have been portrayed in novels and in splatbooks, I believe that it may be more accurate to say that although the gods don't have physical bodies in the mortal sense, they do have physical bodies in the conceptual sense. A god can be wounded or crippled by another being of such great power that they can affect matter on a conceptual level.

A conceptual body would be both physical and metaphysical (matter, spirit, and concept combined), so while it would become more difficult to harm a deity the higher up they rank, it is not impossible.

It's like when the Q on Star Trek were able to harm each other even though they are otherwise omnipotent and can't be harmed by any means that mortals could conceive of.


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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 08 Feb 2018 22:38:36
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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  23:08:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Refresh my memory: There was a scene in The Avatar Series where the gods went to the Cynosure for a meeting, and Cyric had Malik in his pocket. What did he see?
I never read a series with Malik in it, other than the Return of the Archwizards, wherein he was an already-established character (so, after he was 'cursed' with truthfulness). I did read Prince of Lies, with a similar scene (several, I think), but I also never read the follow-up to that, Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (wherein said event may have taken place, given what its about). Especially considering it is that author's character. (I really need to read that one)

In Prince of Lies, its established (in conversation between Oghma and Mystra, IIRC) that what the gods 'see' is based upon their own preconceptions - each god sees something different when they go there. Ergo, their own preconceptions are powerful-enough to override the universal 'defaults' (the dogma stuff I was talking about earlier). Mystra, being who she is, is able to "see through the eyes" of other gods, so she gets a feel for how they think. Its an eye-opening experience for her.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  23:46:26  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-That's what I was trying to remember: how Malik perceived the collective gathering. He isn't fully mortal, but he's the closest to a plain ol' guy in that scene.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:40:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.



OR - that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:46:45  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.



OR - that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy.



You know...THIS is a good idea.

Sacrifices of flesh are ancient and are said to grant power. So, maybe Gruumsh DOES get something from the sacrifices that his shamans, clerics and such make to him...especially their own eye.

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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:56:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ummm... that's a CANON PrC, IIRC...

Complete Warrior, pg.31

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:00:37
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:58:06  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ummm... that's a CANON PrC, IIRC...



There are no prestige classes in AD&D you heretic!

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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  01:01:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You responded before my edit LOL

Oh, and there are no PrC's in the last two editions either (at least, I don't think there is).

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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:02:11
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TBeholder
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  11:12:06  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In Prince of Lies, its established (in conversation between Oghma and Mystra, IIRC) that what the gods 'see' is based upon their own preconceptions - each god sees something different when they go there. Ergo, their own preconceptions are powerful-enough to override the universal 'defaults' (the dogma stuff I was talking about earlier). Mystra, being who she is, is able to "see through the eyes" of other gods, so she gets a feel for how they think. Its an eye-opening experience for her.

Not preconceptions... portfolios. They are materialized obsessions, among the other things. Hence "essence management" by Tempus - keeping Garagos and Red Knight portfolios separate.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy.

(sigh) It's readiness to pay the price.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  12:20:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ummm... that's a CANON PrC, IIRC...



There are no prestige classes in AD&D you heretic!



LOL, but that idea of them ripping out their eye does predate 3e. I remember it from I think a dragon article discussing orc worship or something.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  12:28:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.



Based on how non-avatar battles between gods have been portrayed in novels and in splatbooks, I believe that it may be more accurate to say that although the gods don't have physical bodies in the mortal sense, they do have physical bodies in the conceptual sense. A god can be wounded or crippled by another being of such great power that they can affect matter on a conceptual level.

A conceptual body would be both physical and metaphysical (matter, spirit, and concept combined), so while it would become more difficult to harm a deity the higher up they rank, it is not impossible.

It's like when the Q on Star Trek were able to harm each other even though they are otherwise omnipotent and can't be harmed by any means that mortals could conceive of.





I'd say that Storyteller Hero has a point here. Gods may exist in multiple "dimensions" as I know we've discussed. So, rather than them simply being balls of energy that can appear as whatever they like at any second... maybe these restrictions from other "dimensions" confine them to certain forms. Essentially, maybe they have to "grow" the forms that they extend here as avatars somewhere else and then "transport" them across the "dimensional barrier" for those avatars to interact with the world... and where they're grown they have to mirror the "reality" of themselves there. Now, they can change their appearance and whatnot, maybe they can even transfer bodies, etc... these are all tricks that mortals can do... but just like with mortals it takes energy... also just like with mortal magic, maybe there are ways to see through it... so if you don't want to be called a "fake god" you don't do that kind of thing often. There essentially has to be a guiding reason in my book for why these beings keep these forms (now, granted, I just gave an option for orcs saying he's doing it for the faith energy, but that can also just being taking apples and making apple juice).

One thing that comes to mind for instance is Cyric "killing" Leira in Limbo (and I know everyone's heard my theories of Mask and Leira in cahoots, and Mask simply absorbing/hiding Leira). Where am I going with this? If Mask and Leira were in cahoots... and if they were doing this in the service of Ao, because the Time of Troubles was something else behind the scenes..... then MAYBE there was a reason for Tyr being blinded. Maybe Ao didn't need the god of justice "seeing" the truth of things, and so as he kicked off the ToT he was already resigned to coming up with some reason to strike Tyr blind to allow Leira and Mask to pull off the Cyrinishad (or Leira becoming said artifact and infecting Cyric with madness). As I see it, Cyric, Kelemvor, and Midnight were all patsies put into place for a reason. Even Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul may have gotten their divinity leading into this same intrigue (which even more comes back to "who is the true Bane now"). Similarly, during the ToT, Ao may have clued Helm in on things, revealing that he too would need to fake his death (possibly with the aid of Leira and Mask). Ultimately, Shar was heading into a new Shadow Epoch... and lord knows how many of those that realmspace has had over time (we only know of the one... there may have been several).... and ultimately, all of these intrigues may have been centered around stopping that from happening (because maybe Shar was trying to set herself up to supplant Ao... and despite all his supposed power, maybe some of these gods are actually close to him in power level... maybe Shar allowed herself to come down during the ToT in hopes that she could take Selune's power.... she may have seen that time as a great time to hunt down and subsume godly entities). In the end, stopping another shadow epoch via a lot of divine shenanigans may have been the end goal.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Feb 2018 14:03:32
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