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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  01:28:27  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

We only know for certain that one day, in the ancient past, Corellon ripped off Gruumsh's eye, and that is all.


-We don't even know that, lol!

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sfdragon
Great Reader

2134 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  02:24:29  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
eye, we don't.

the orcs say Gruumsh always had 1 eye.

I say,that lolth tore out gruumsh's eye while he was sleeping and she said it was corellon

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  02:39:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For awhile there I was thinking Gruumsh could be Odin, and he gave up his eye in order to get information on how to defeat Corellon.

Moral of the story - never trust an Elder Evil trying to make a bargain.

If Gruumsh found the Eye of Vecna, could he just pop it in head? It seems to work that way in anime.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  04:03:55  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

The other choice is to put a great effort into explaining every single thing every single lazy hack let slip in at some time, and run over robust lore for this... and then do it again from scratch the next week.

-That's kinda all we do, lol.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6562 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  04:08:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

Both of these "Non-Human Deities" (and their pantheons) originally appeared in 1E Deities & Demigods, elves and the Seldarine were expanded in Dragon #60, orcs and Gruumsh (and his pantheon) were expanded in Dragon #62. These first writings have reappeared (again and again) in the Realmslore tales we know today.

No origin myth is offered for the Seldarine. They simply exist as they've always existed as a loose group of forest-dwellers in a Realm of Arvandor (on a plane of Olympus). Some Seldarine interact with some Olympians, Hanali Celanil shares her crystal pool of "Evergold" with Aphrodite, etc. Elves and fey are the "children" of the Seldarine, somehow created or descended from them. Elves (but not Seldarine) of different sorts are also described in Deities & Demigods Norse mythology, indeed elves populate some of the Nine Worlds touched by Yggdrasil. Which suggests Seldarine are at least as old as Olympus and Yggdrasil (although it seems more plausible for them be an "organic" part of a big cosmic/world tree than of a big mountain).

No origin myth is offered for Gruumsh and orcs. "He Who Watches" was once "He Who Always Watches", where "Always" could profoundly reference eternal eternity or simply be a part of Gruumsh's formal title that was preferred by some orcs. The tale changes from shaman to shaman and tribe to tribe, but Gruumsh has been described as fighting almost every other god in single battle at some point. Curiously, these battles seem to have no consequence, Gruumsh fights with orcish savagery (and he was the god of savagery, it was his primary "portfolio" back in the day) and Gruumsh is relentless, and Gruumsh is undefeatable ... yet Gruumsh and his opponents apparently continue to exist after these battles. And curiously, the orcs tell their own version of Gruumsh losing an eye in battle against Corellon, even though Gruumsh never loses and Gruumsh always had two eyes, and the orcs utterly reject everything else which is said about the Seldarine origins. Gruumsh also created orcs, even though orcs always existed and always fought (mostly against goblins) in Hell.
The Dragon article specifically says this Gruumsh/orc history was inspired and adapted from a book called Master of Middle-Earth (which essentially prototypes the same orc religion for Middle-Earth).

2E Planescape offered more embellishments and expansions on these powers and their pantheons. It details Gruumsh's "home" as an Iron Fortress in a Realm of Nishrek (on a plane of Acheron). While this is not pure 1E-era canon, it is less speculative than most post-1E expansions and it is consistent with 1E Greyhawk descriptions of orcs simply appearing on the (fully known, explored, mapped) world from "some unknown place".

3E Races of Faerun describes Gruumsh killing Re in -1071DR as the first recorded instance of deicide within the Realms.

[/Ayrik]
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  16:04:07  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is my "Creation Myth" for the Orcs of Ekur:

quote:

There was a time when the stars glittered in a night sky that was devoid of brightness; and instead the world was bathed in a twinkling eternal twilight. In this world lived the Orcs who were its masters. There were no gods, demons or other beings greater than the Orcs in this time. Orcs were part of the world, and it has always been so that Orcs should rule the world because it was the world that gave them form and lifted them out of the ground to tend to the world as its sons and daughters.

In time, other races came which were like the beasts that the Orcs had hunted for untold generations. From the mountains crawled stunted and hairy beings called Vak that were greedy and would try to take all the treasures of the earth from the Orcs. Some Vak were greedy for iron, gold and silver; while the smallest Vak wanted the glittering stones of the ground. All Vak were greedy and wanted to take the mountains and hills from the Orcs. The Orcs relented and left the mountains and hills to dwell in the Forests and Plains.

Later came the Fral who had no bodies. The Fral were the most hated enemies of the Orcs because they would steal Orc bodies and take them for their own! The Fral would twist the bodies of the Orcs and turn them into vile sneaky things. The Fral wanted to hide even from the stars but hated the ground and so hid beneath the trees where they would lay in wait for the Orcs and kill them to take their bodies and turn them into the hated Galug. Eventually all the Fral were gone after they had stolen Orc bodies and the many faced race of the Galug was all that was left. They forced the Orcs from the forests and so then the Orcs had only the open sky; but still the Orcs were content to dwell under the stars.

But yet another race came from among the beasts of the fields, and they were a plague worse even than the Vak or the Fral before them. They were stealers of ideas and perverters of the truth and they bred as rapidly as the beasts of the fields and they began to steal all the ideas of the Orcs and all the lands as well. The hated Sharaz stole the idea of Magic from the Orcs and used it in horrible ways. They forced the Orcs into the farthest places.

Orcs tried to go back to the mountains to live free of the Sharaz plague, but the Vak were greedy despite not needing all the mountains and they killed the Orcs that tried to go there. The Orcs tried to go to the Forests to flee the Sharaz, but the Galug were greedy and would not share the lands beneath the trees. Many orcs died in the great waters as the beasts of the waters were numerous and the Orcs could not live in the waters.

Many generations of Orcs lived and died before the coming of the most powerful Orc who ever lived. His name is not spoken, but his might was such that all other Orcs had to acknowledge his wisdom and his power over all things. His true name is lost, but as a boy he had been teased by other boys and called Womanly; for he and his brother that wore magical rings were both as fair as a woman. This drove him to become the greatest warrior the Orcs had ever known though. He could fight like no other, and even mastered the power of the world becoming the most gifted of all shapers of magic. He became so powerful that he no longer needed to sleep and could fight forever if he wished. He became the leader of all Orcs and they gave him the title of “He Who Never Sleeps” to acknowledge his guardianship and unwavering loyalty to the protection of his people.

He declared to the Vak that the Orcs would live in the mountains and his spear rent asunder the mountains and hills and the Orcs then dwelt within them. He declared to the Galug that the Orcs would live in the Forests and his magic repelled the Galug and they were forced to let the Orcs live in the Forests again. His eyes turned on the Sharaz and they would not relent to his wisdom or acknowledge his power because they were numerous and had great magic which they had stolen.

And so it was that He Who Never Sleeps went against the Sharaz and made war on them with his brothers and his sons and his cousins and his friends. His brother came from the Forests with his magical rings and his vassals the Galug who He Who Never Sleeps had made him lord over. His brother who was later slain against the Sharaz came from the Mountains with his magic and his Vak who He Who Never Sleeps had made him lord over. His sons, most of who died in war against the Sharaz, came up from the earth in the plains where they had dwelt and made war beside their father and they brought with them their Orcs who He Who Never Sleeps had made them the lords of.

The war against the Sharaz was great and many Orcs died. The Vak died in their suits of treasure and the Galug died even hiding behind their trees and bushes. Orcs died with honor on their face as they did not hide. They did not hide in suits of treasure or in shame behind trees and bushes. The Sharaz, with their theft of ideas, died in suits of treasure behind trees and bushes. But because of their theft of ideas, fewer and fewer Sharaz died as the battles raged across the world.

In their greatest theft, the Sharaz began to steal the stars from the sky and they forged them together into one great and bright star. They set this star in the sky and it shed too much light. It hurt the eyes of the Orcs who lived beneath the stars and loved them. The Sharaz reveled in their bright star and the war raged on as Orcs could not see well in the bright light of the Sharaz Star.

He Who Never Sleeps feared that all the stars of the sky would be stolen by the Sharaz and added to their Too Bright Star and so he worked a great magic to ensure that he would not be blinded by their light. He took many stars from the sky and he placed them within one of his eyes. With the light of the stars in his eye the Too Bright Star could not blind him. The power of the Stars gave him great power too, and he became even mightier than before; and yet the war against the Sharaz continued.

He Who Never Sleeps saw the death of so many Orcs because the Vak and the Galug were treacherous and would not fight for their Lords as the Orcs fought for He Who Never Sleeps. He became enraged at their cowardice in the face of the enemy. He began to fear that his last brother would be slain by the Sharaz and so he made a great sacrifice on the day that the Sharaz were about to win the war.

Despite the power of his Spear which could reach across the plains and slay the Sharaz in great numbers, the Sharaz had stolen his idea and had spears as well. Despite the strength of his flesh the Sharaz had stolen the idea for the suits of treasure worn by the Vak and became harder to kill. Despite the ranks of the Orcs slaying the Sharaz, the Sharaz had stolen the ideas of the Galug and used arrows to slay the Orcs from afar. There was no weapon that He Who Never Sleeps had that the Sharaz had not stolen; and so He Who Never Sleeps, who’s aim was always true with only one eye, tore out his own star-filled eye.

He took out his Starry Eye and forged it into a great and mighty weapon. The First Sword was made from the Eye of He Who Never Sleeps and with it he at last was able to humble the Sharaz, for they were too scared to place stars in their eyes and take them out to make swords of their own. He Who Never Sleeps used the many stars in his eye to make other swords for his Orcs and they used the swords to force the Sharaz from the fields at last; but they did this all alone for the Vak had fled to their mountains and the Galug to their forests.

He Who Never Sleeps still did not need sleep; but he was weary and so rested. But in this he was betrayed for he had left his brother the Ring Wearer to watch over the Orcs while he rested for just a short while.

The Ring Wearer looked at all the things that the Sharaz had caused to pass and especially their magic. He learned their magic and his power grew. He turned to his own Orcs and taught them the magic of the Sharaz and wishing to be more like the Sharaz they coveted the Too Bright Light which was still hanging in the sky. The Ring Wearer learned the power of the Too Bright Star and as the Sharaz had been forced to flee he mastered its brightness; but then his Shadow fell behind him as he accepted the power of the Too Bright Star.

The Shadow was a horrible thing, as it twisted and changed to suit whatever direction it fell upon as The Ring Wearer walked around the Too Bright Star. The brightness shined down on all the world and He Who Never Sleeps said that the Too Bright Star must be extinguished so that the Orcs would not be hurt by its light and cast terrible shadows. He turned and saw however that his brother stood gladly in the light of the Too Bright Star and his heart knew rage that the Sharaz had corrupted the last of his own brothers who was said to be so very fair that even women were not as beautiful as The Ring Wearer.

As powerful as The Ring Wearer had become, he knew that the power of He Who Never Sleeps was greater still because of the Sword of Stars made from his eye. Fearing that he would lose his shadow and the power that he had gained from the Too Bright Star, The Ring Wearer decided that he would betray his own flesh.

He used his magic to cast his shadow over the Sword of Stars and took it from He Who Never Sleeps. With the power of the Too Bright Star, his magical rings and now his brother’s Sword of Stars, The Ring Wearer was equal at last to He Who Never Sleeps but feared he would lose the Sword of Stars back to his brother and so brought war against He Who Never Sleeps despite the sacrifice that had been made to create the Sword of Stars.

The Ring Wearer took those Orcs who would follow him and they fled to the forests that He Who Never Sleeps had made The Ring Wearer lord over. There he brought forth the cowardly Galug and taught them the magic of the Too Bright Star and gave to them swords from the Sword of Stars and taught them the magic of his magical rings. His Orcs, twisted by their own shadows, became Not-Orcs who chose to carry the light of the Too Bright Star inside them so that they could cast their shadow over every direction.

At last fully rested, He Who Never Sleeps rose to war against The Ring Wearer so that his Sword of Stars could be reclaimed. His Orcs followed him with their swords and their spears; but the war against the Sharaz had tested their numbers; and the desertion of the Not-Orcs who followed The Ring Wearer further had reduced the host of He Who Never Sleeps. The Not-Orcs with their Swords and Spears and the Light of the Too Bright Star still feared the host of He Who Never Sleeps and they betrayed their ancestors by going to the Vak and learned from them the art of suits of treasure which made them harder to kill. Without realizing their folly, the Not-Orcs had become as had been the Sharaz.

The battles that were fought were the worst times for the Orcs. Worse than when the Vak had first forced them form the Mountains and the Galug had forced the Orcs from the Forests and even worse than when the Orcs had battled the Sharaz. The Orcs were forced to battle the Orcs that were Not-Orcs who were as the Sharaz but who had Orc Shadows instead of Sharaz Shadows. The Ring Wearer then allied with the Vak and brought them too as allies against the Orcs and then went to the remainder of the now broken Sharaz who also still revered the Too Bright Star. He Who Never Sleeps fought and fought with all his might. He brought the remainder of his sons against his brother and all of their sons and the sons of the last. All seemed lost again however, for all the sons were not as mighty in number as they had once been and He Who Never Sleeps was only the equal of The Ring Wearer who had stolen the Sword of Stars.

As his people died, He Who Never Sleeps sought out a way to defeat his brother The Ring Wearer who was called the Star Stealer by the Orcs who followed He Who Never Sleeps. Taking the secret of the Sharaz he found the answers. He taught his Orcs the Secrets:

Stealing. As the Sharaz had done, Orcs must take all things that can protect the Orc and kill the enemy. Armor, Weapons, Fire, Magic, Women and any other thing that can be taken and be used to fight must be either stolen or created; but let the enemy do the work and steal from them instead so that war can be focused on.

Fury. With Fury no foe can sustain his defense against you. As the wild bull defends his herd with fury, so too does the Orc make war. Anger sets the Orc against his foes and allows him to do whatever is needed. Fury will take the women of the foe and make her the woman of the Orc who will take her as his own.

Flesh. As the beast hunts and devours his prey, so too does the Orc treat with his enemy. Each dead foe feeds the hunger of the Orc host in war and brings fear to their hearts. Breeding as often as possible increases the numbers of Orcs; and so breeding with the Flesh of the Foe will also bring more Orcs.

With these things the Orcs began to overcome their enemies. They stole the secrets of the enemy and used them. Their fury abounded and they crushed the enemy before them with their increasing strength. They took the women of the enemy and made Orcs from their bosoms; but from the Not-Orcs they could not make children because He Who Never Sleeps cast a great curse on his brother and the Not-Orcs that followed him allowing them few children. The enemy was frightened; they could not steal anything more from the Orcs because they were the first who had stolen and had nothing left to steal. They could not match the animal-like fury of the Orcs who were now stronger than any who stood in their way. They were afraid to eat the flesh of the Orcs because they were weak in their hearts and they could not mate with the women of the Orcs and make more of their kind because Orc women only make Orcs.

At last came the Final Battle. The Star Stealer used all of his strength but still could not defeat his now more powerful brother even after stealing the Sword of Stars from He Who Never Sleeps. As far as could be seen the Orcs who had grown again in numbers and strength, who now wore the treasure suits of the Vak, fired arrows like the Balug, cast spells like the Sharaz and were strong like the beasts of the field in their fury could not be stopped. He Who Never Sleeps, now even greater than when he held the Sword of Stars because he had taken on the strength of the beasts and grew out his tusks and ate the flesh of any who fell before him could not be stopped by his betraying brother. He Who Never Sleeps took the Too Bright Star from the sky and fashioned it into an ever burning torch and burned down the forests and poured its fire into the mountains. The Galug fled to the side of the Star Stealer and with them went the Vak who had been chased from the mountains. The remaining Sharaz held counsel at the Star Stealer’s side and all decided they must find a way to flee the wrath of He Who Never Sleeps.

As the Orcs encircled the last of their foes and He Who Never Sleeps demanded the return of his Sword of Stars; the Not-Orcs who followed the Star Stealer who knew the greatest magic stood with the Balug, Vak and Sharaz who knew great magic too and they cast the greatest magic they could to save their pitiful treacherous lives. They fled from the World into far places where they hoped the Orcs would not follow.

He Who Never Sleeps stood then among his Orcs and knew even greater Fury. He had been robbed of a final victory against those who had persecuted and stolen from his people. He looked around and saw that his Orcs no longer looked like they had. He looked at his shield and saw his reflection and bellowed in rage unlike any heard before by an Orc despite all the evils that had been laid upon them since the time of their innocence. They heard the rage and they responded in kind, with all voices raised in rage against what had befallen them at the hands of the greedy and treacherous.

He Who Never Sleeps stood then among his Orcs and forced from them The Oath of the Orc which each swore to. Their voices rising in unison they echoed back his words: “Never will I stop conquering until all my foes are dead or I am. Every Vak, Balug, Sharaz and Not-Orc will die and only then will He Who Never Sleeps have his vengeance!”


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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6562 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  21:55:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your Ekur-Gruumsh could differ from Realms-Gruumsh just as Realms-Tyr differs from Norse-Tyr.

[/Ayrik]
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2134 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  00:03:27  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
too true

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  00:29:13  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Your Ekur-Gruumsh could differ from Realms-Gruumsh just as Realms-Tyr differs from Norse-Tyr.



Ekur Gruumsh is likely Lawful Evil for sure...as a God heading a civilized pantheon might be.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  01:02:34  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

-Interestingly, some 4e/5e era WotC product (because I've never seen it) depicts Gruumsh as cyclopian, with neither two eyes or one with an empty socket. I looked something up on the FR Wiki and that was the image on his page. Everything obviously is always up to artistic license, but it was an interpretation I've never seen (or even thought of) before.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  05:36:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always felt that Gruumsh losing an eye in battle was a very suitable thing -- it speaks to the warlike nature of orcs, to have a deity who has been visibly wounded in his endless fights.

I think that it makes him more of an orc god than he would otherwise be. If he had never lost an eye, it takes away from the image of him as a warrior.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  06:02:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree. I don't think he makes any sense looking like a cyclops. I prefer that look for GH (because both are canon), and the missing-eye look for our (FR) guy.

I mean, do cyclops' even worship him? That would at least make some sense. Hmmmm... Gruumsh as a proto-giant... that might be worth tinkering with...

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

-Interestingly, some 4e/5e era WotC product (because I've never seen it) depicts Gruumsh as cyclopian, with neither two eyes or one with an empty socket. I looked something up on the FR Wiki and that was the image on his page. Everything obviously is always up to artistic license, but it was an interpretation I've never seen (or even thought of) before.
That was Gruumsh's original look - check the 1e Deities & Demigods. He looked like a cyclops, which I found odd back then.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2018 07:59:08
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
307 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  09:10:24  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Interestingly, some 4e/5e era WotC product (because I've never seen it) depicts Gruumsh as cyclopian, with neither two eyes or one with an empty socket. I looked something up on the FR Wiki and that was the image on his page. Everything obviously is always up to artistic license, but it was an interpretation I've never seen (or even thought of) before.


That was the 3.0-edition Deities & Demigods. It's not just an art issue, the text says he has a central eye, but also that he lost the left eye. His avatars appear with both central eyes and right eyes. Presumably he likes to shift it to the centre to be symmetric.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1565 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  13:45:30  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

Not all followers have to agree on all details, including use of exactly the same myths. Especially more chaotic ones.
Again, there are different pronunciations for Tempus/Tempos and Lolth/Lloth in Realms.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  15:38:44  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The greatest of all warriors wouldn't lose an eye to a stinking elf.

He might sacrifice his eye in some way; but why would he ever lose an eye?

Even in the story the elves tell (pretty decent one found in Dragon Magazine 408) it shows Gruumsh as literally kicking elf-boy all over creation in one on one combat.

I've been reading the various bits about Gruumsh and all I can say is this: he makes one hell of a War God.

As for Orcs and their alignment. I can understand the reason they were made Chaotic Evil...it helps explain the Horde mentality versus an organized group of Lawful Evil. What they seemed to have missed though is that Orcs are only LE in order to establish pecking order and control. They don't use Law in the sense of having traditions of governmental order...anymore than the "Chaotic Good" elves are whimsical and have no order.

Alignment is not always a function of how ordered you are. Elves were originally seen as Free...while Orcs were their diametrically opposed foes. Orcs sought to enslave and control others...they were agents of bondage and servitude as written by Tolkien.

So you can have a Horde of creatures that SEEM to be unorganized and barbaric...and they can still be Lawful Evil.

Just like you can have an army composed of Chaotic Good Elves who have rigid lines of spearmen supported by rows of archers and charging knights in a diamond formation.

Alignment isn't a function of organization; it is a philosophy and it was totally lost on the designers when they decided to make Orcs Chaotic Evil.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30811 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  18:10:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The greatest of all warriors wouldn't lose an eye to a stinking elf.


The greatest of all warriors wouldn't be defeated in combat.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

He might sacrifice his eye in some way; but why would he ever lose an eye?



Because unless you're in a tank and you're facing a guy with a slightly pointy stick, there's a chance that for all of your skill, your opponent is going to land a hit. It's not like Gruumsh stood there, arms at his sides, and said, "Hey, Corey, bet you can't get me in the eye!" He was facing a skilled opponent with a fine weapon -- walking away unscathed would be far less believable than losing an eye.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  18:18:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?

By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.

I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.

I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?

That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  21:15:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?

By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.

I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.

I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?

That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it.



Why is Tyr blind and missing a hand?

Even for gods, some things can't be waved away.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  21:20:02  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?

By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.

I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.

I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?

That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it.



Why is Tyr blind and missing a hand?

Even for gods, some things can't be waved away.



Tyr...waved away.

I understand that; but like I said, it is this way for Gruumsh simply because of two things I think:

Originally Gruumsh was "just" the god of orcs...monsters essentially. Not only that, but if his inspiration isn't from the Eye of Sauron I'm an Easter Bunny.

So "In Story" here is why I think he ACTUALLY has one eye:

Elves know how to write.

They have been telling it their way for so long that even the Orcs believe it for the most part...though there are some groups that show him simply with an eye-patch.

My feeling is that he sacrificed his eye for something. Not that it matters what now...but any god that is "maimed" somehow made a sacrifice to obtain a goal.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  22:17:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can see that standpoint, but there's one quibble I have with it... Why would elves tell orcs this? And why would the orcs believe them? And assuming elves did tell orcs this, and orcs bought it -- why didn't Gruumsh tell his priests to set the record straight?

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Ayrik
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Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  22:42:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've always felt that Gruumsh losing an eye in battle was a very suitable thing -- it speaks to the warlike nature of orcs, to have a deity who has been visibly wounded in his endless fights.

I think that it makes him more of an orc god than he would otherwise be. If he had never lost an eye, it takes away from the image of him as a warrior.
Other "maimed" gods usually gained something in return for their "sacrifice".

Odin traded an eye for "wisdom" and visions of the future. There's varying accounts of this tale, but in most versions Odin made this "sacrifice" or "trade" voluntarily to gain something in exchange. It turns out that Odin compensated for his "blindness" in combat by using dwarf-fashioned mirrored surfaces on his bracers and shield - clever guy - but that's not really relevant here.

Tyr had his hand bitten off while placing the Gleipner ribbon in the mouth of the Fenrir Wolf. The Wolf was too powerful to chain any other way, this was the only way the gods could accomplish this necessary task, even though Tyr (all the gods) fully expected treachery, a "price" that needed to be paid, and a small price compared to what was gained.
Tyr in the Realms was later blinded by Ao. Symbolic of "blind justice" or perhaps "blind faith" but also meant to be a lesson/demonstration to Tyr (all the gods) about the price of "blind arrogance".

Another Norse deity, Hodur, was blinded as punishment for "accidentally" murdering Baldur (as the unknowing instrument of Loki). It was the only way he could "atone" for his grief and it provided him great insights and self-reflection afterwards.

The Iliad describes many Olympian gods being "injured" (by mortals, beasts, and other gods) while in mortal form. And many of these "wounds" could never heal, they were effectively "maimed". Admittedly, these usually took the forms of minor "physical" scars, or of "spiritual" or "emotional" hurts that forever changed them in less visible but equally profound ways. Hades has a monstrously disfigured visage, Hera suffers from incurable pain, etc. While these "injuries" limited the gods and their powers in some ways, they expanded them in others.

Hephaestus is a grotesquely crippled and misshapen god. Some accounts explain his condition as being the "price" he paid for drawing the secrets of creation from the forge. Some accounts "augment" Hephaestus with various technological devices which provide him with all manner of wondrous new abilities, in some tales he's almost like a primitive "cyborg" or "construct".

Set killed Osiris and scattered pieces of his body across the world. Isis managed to gather all the pieces except one (which had been eaten by a catfish) and resurrected Osiris (at least most of Osiris) as a bandaged mummy. Osiris was somewhat emasculated but also brought back powers and secrets from beyond life and death which were otherwise impossible to learn.

Many god/godlike characters (like "Corum" from the Eternal Champion, Torak from the Belgariad, and Morgoth from the Silmarillion) in fantasy mirror this trope. They have somehow gained powers or abilities or knowledge from their crippled or disfigured or maimed conditions.



But then there's Gruumsh. Who lost an eye to a spear thrust by Corellon. A decisive blow described as an epic noble victory by elves and as an act of vile treachery by orcs. But what did Gruumsh gain in return from this injury? He (and orcs) already knew that elves were "vile" and "treacherous" opponents before this battle was even fought, he learned nothing new, he suffered loss without gaining any advantage. I don't think losing a mythic battle contributes favourably to Gruumsh's image as a warrior, lol.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2018 22:49:51
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Bladewind
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  01:12:45  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I attribute the superstitious and brutal warrior traditions to this myth. In orc warbands champions show their dedication in their superior position over their legions and foes by symbolically scarring themselves. Eyes of Gruumsh shaman priests one-up them by plucking an eye out.

Eventually they started oral traditions about He that Never Sleeps and his cyclopian nature. Some orc shamen believe the archfey witches still have the eye somewhere (which in my Realms is true; its secretly held by a coven of archfey hags under Auril in Pandemonium in winter or Cegilune in Hades in summer).

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Ayrik
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  02:08:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The three nearly-blind hags - Fates, Norns, Graeae, whatever - often have to share one eye, sometimes also one tooth. Is this the only eye they have left after "sacrificing" their other (five) eyes to some Well of Knowledge?
Is it Odin's eye? Gruumsh's eye? Vecna's other eye?
(The thought of orcish Gruumsh-hags or lichy Vecna-hags is unsettling, lol.)

Attanasio's fantasy novel, The Dragon and the Unicorn, presents an interesting tale about Odin's (the Furor's) eye. A piece of a god, an artifact of godly power in itself traded to a mythological creature in exchange for some 10,000 lifetimes of absorbed "human" experience - eventually obtained by a witch queen and used by her to force the god into a sort of binding agreement. It's an interesting tale.

A "third eye" commonly represents the ability to see something imperceptible with only two eyes. The past, the future, clairsentience, ESP, "second sight", the Astral plane, auras, magic, whatever.
Realmsians of the Vilhon Reach paint dots onto their foreheads which indicate their mastery ("sight") of language, literacy, and magic. One or more "Bindi" dots painted on the forehead is often used to indicate (among other things) a certain "enlightenment" or spiritual perception in Hinduism and various Eastern philosophies (and in some New-Age Hippy beliefs, lol).

Does any D&D canon specifically mention other Gruumsh's eye? Does it continue to "see" anything?
(That is - assuming this eye even exists at all, which of course it wouldn't if Gruumsh "always" had only one eye.)

I say that if Gruumsh did indeed have two eyes then his "missing" eye was not "lost" - it was "stolen"!
Treacherous Corellon and his evil Seldarines have taken power and knowledge which rightfully belongs to Gruumsh!

(Although, to be honest, it couldn't have been Gruumsh's "best" eye. Never even saw a big spear point coming straight it at.)

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2018 02:14:21
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  02:44:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But then there's Gruumsh. Who lost an eye to a spear thrust by Corellon. A decisive blow described as an epic noble victory by elves and as an act of vile treachery by orcs. But what did Gruumsh gain in return from this injury? He (and orcs) already knew that elves were "vile" and "treacherous" opponents before this battle was even fought, he learned nothing new, he suffered loss without gaining any advantage. I don't think losing a mythic battle contributes favourably to Gruumsh's image as a warrior, lol.



He suffered a very serious wound, the kind of thing that could prove debilitating to others -- and he fought on. With the continued disadvantage of a major blind spot, he fought on then and continues to fight.

What better symbol for a warrior than that?

What's going to motivate a warrior more -- the guy who never gets hit, and thus has never known pain, or the guy who fought on when he should have fallen, and who didn't let a disadvantage stop him?

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  02:53:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Tyr...waved away.

I understand that; but like I said, it is this way for Gruumsh simply because of two things I think:

Originally Gruumsh was "just" the god of orcs...monsters essentially. Not only that, but if his inspiration isn't from the Eye of Sauron I'm an Easter Bunny.

So "In Story" here is why I think he ACTUALLY has one eye:

Elves know how to write.

They have been telling it their way for so long that even the Orcs believe it for the most part...though there are some groups that show him simply with an eye-patch.

My feeling is that he sacrificed his eye for something. Not that it matters what now...but any god that is "maimed" somehow made a sacrifice to obtain a goal.
Then you are probably going to LOVE the myth I wrote I the other thread....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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