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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 18:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The greatest of all warriors wouldn't lose an eye to a stinking elf.
The greatest of all warriors wouldn't be defeated in combat.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
He might sacrifice his eye in some way; but why would he ever lose an eye?
Because unless you're in a tank and you're facing a guy with a slightly pointy stick, there's a chance that for all of your skill, your opponent is going to land a hit. It's not like Gruumsh stood there, arms at his sides, and said, "Hey, Corey, bet you can't get me in the eye!" He was facing a skilled opponent with a fine weapon -- walking away unscathed would be far less believable than losing an eye. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 18:18:30
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Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?
By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.
I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.
I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?
That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 21:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?
By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.
I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.
I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?
That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it.
Why is Tyr blind and missing a hand?
Even for gods, some things can't be waved away. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 21:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Then what did Corellon suffer as a result of the fight?
By all accounts he was getting his ass handed to him, but still no long term effects.
I know it is this way because "Orcs are the monsters!" I get that.
I'm just saying, why would a Greater God like Gruumsh simply not restore his own eye?
That is the reason I say he took it out himself for some reason and the elves just want to take credit for it.
Why is Tyr blind and missing a hand?
Even for gods, some things can't be waved away.
Tyr...waved away. 
I understand that; but like I said, it is this way for Gruumsh simply because of two things I think:
Originally Gruumsh was "just" the god of orcs...monsters essentially. Not only that, but if his inspiration isn't from the Eye of Sauron I'm an Easter Bunny.
So "In Story" here is why I think he ACTUALLY has one eye:
Elves know how to write.
They have been telling it their way for so long that even the Orcs believe it for the most part...though there are some groups that show him simply with an eye-patch.
My feeling is that he sacrificed his eye for something. Not that it matters what now...but any god that is "maimed" somehow made a sacrifice to obtain a goal. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 22:17:43
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| I can see that standpoint, but there's one quibble I have with it... Why would elves tell orcs this? And why would the orcs believe them? And assuming elves did tell orcs this, and orcs bought it -- why didn't Gruumsh tell his priests to set the record straight? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 22:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always felt that Gruumsh losing an eye in battle was a very suitable thing -- it speaks to the warlike nature of orcs, to have a deity who has been visibly wounded in his endless fights.
I think that it makes him more of an orc god than he would otherwise be. If he had never lost an eye, it takes away from the image of him as a warrior.
Other "maimed" gods usually gained something in return for their "sacrifice".
Odin traded an eye for "wisdom" and visions of the future. There's varying accounts of this tale, but in most versions Odin made this "sacrifice" or "trade" voluntarily to gain something in exchange. It turns out that Odin compensated for his "blindness" in combat by using dwarf-fashioned mirrored surfaces on his bracers and shield - clever guy - but that's not really relevant here.
Tyr had his hand bitten off while placing the Gleipner ribbon in the mouth of the Fenrir Wolf. The Wolf was too powerful to chain any other way, this was the only way the gods could accomplish this necessary task, even though Tyr (all the gods) fully expected treachery, a "price" that needed to be paid, and a small price compared to what was gained.
Tyr in the Realms was later blinded by Ao. Symbolic of "blind justice" or perhaps "blind faith" but also meant to be a lesson/demonstration to Tyr (all the gods) about the price of "blind arrogance".
Another Norse deity, Hodur, was blinded as punishment for "accidentally" murdering Baldur (as the unknowing instrument of Loki). It was the only way he could "atone" for his grief and it provided him great insights and self-reflection afterwards.
The Iliad describes many Olympian gods being "injured" (by mortals, beasts, and other gods) while in mortal form. And many of these "wounds" could never heal, they were effectively "maimed". Admittedly, these usually took the forms of minor "physical" scars, or of "spiritual" or "emotional" hurts that forever changed them in less visible but equally profound ways. Hades has a monstrously disfigured visage, Hera suffers from incurable pain, etc. While these "injuries" limited the gods and their powers in some ways, they expanded them in others.
Hephaestus is a grotesquely crippled and misshapen god. Some accounts explain his condition as being the "price" he paid for drawing the secrets of creation from the forge. Some accounts "augment" Hephaestus with various technological devices which provide him with all manner of wondrous new abilities, in some tales he's almost like a primitive "cyborg" or "construct".
Set killed Osiris and scattered pieces of his body across the world. Isis managed to gather all the pieces except one (which had been eaten by a catfish) and resurrected Osiris (at least most of Osiris) as a bandaged mummy. Osiris was somewhat emasculated but also brought back powers and secrets from beyond life and death which were otherwise impossible to learn.
Many god/godlike characters (like "Corum" from the Eternal Champion, Torak from the Belgariad, and Morgoth from the Silmarillion) in fantasy mirror this trope. They have somehow gained powers or abilities or knowledge from their crippled or disfigured or maimed conditions.
But then there's Gruumsh. Who lost an eye to a spear thrust by Corellon. A decisive blow described as an epic noble victory by elves and as an act of vile treachery by orcs. But what did Gruumsh gain in return from this injury? He (and orcs) already knew that elves were "vile" and "treacherous" opponents before this battle was even fought, he learned nothing new, he suffered loss without gaining any advantage. I don't think losing a mythic battle contributes favourably to Gruumsh's image as a warrior, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2018 22:49:51 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 01:12:45
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I attribute the superstitious and brutal warrior traditions to this myth. In orc warbands champions show their dedication in their superior position over their legions and foes by symbolically scarring themselves. Eyes of Gruumsh shaman priests one-up them by plucking an eye out.
Eventually they started oral traditions about He that Never Sleeps and his cyclopian nature. Some orc shamen believe the archfey witches still have the eye somewhere (which in my Realms is true; its secretly held by a coven of archfey hags under Auril in Pandemonium in winter or Cegilune in Hades in summer). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 02:08:46
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The three nearly-blind hags - Fates, Norns, Graeae, whatever - often have to share one eye, sometimes also one tooth. Is this the only eye they have left after "sacrificing" their other (five) eyes to some Well of Knowledge?
Is it Odin's eye? Gruumsh's eye? Vecna's other eye?
(The thought of orcish Gruumsh-hags or lichy Vecna-hags is unsettling, lol.)
Attanasio's fantasy novel, The Dragon and the Unicorn, presents an interesting tale about Odin's (the Furor's) eye. A piece of a god, an artifact of godly power in itself traded to a mythological creature in exchange for some 10,000 lifetimes of absorbed "human" experience - eventually obtained by a witch queen and used by her to force the god into a sort of binding agreement. It's an interesting tale.
A "third eye" commonly represents the ability to see something imperceptible with only two eyes. The past, the future, clairsentience, ESP, "second sight", the Astral plane, auras, magic, whatever.
Realmsians of the Vilhon Reach paint dots onto their foreheads which indicate their mastery ("sight") of language, literacy, and magic. One or more "Bindi" dots painted on the forehead is often used to indicate (among other things) a certain "enlightenment" or spiritual perception in Hinduism and various Eastern philosophies (and in some New-Age Hippy beliefs, lol).
Does any D&D canon specifically mention other Gruumsh's eye? Does it continue to "see" anything?
(That is - assuming this eye even exists at all, which of course it wouldn't if Gruumsh "always" had only one eye.)
I say that if Gruumsh did indeed have two eyes then his "missing" eye was not "lost" - it was "stolen"!
Treacherous Corellon and his evil Seldarines have taken power and knowledge which rightfully belongs to Gruumsh!
(Although, to be honest, it couldn't have been Gruumsh's "best" eye. Never even saw a big spear point coming straight it at.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2018 02:14:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 02:44:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But then there's Gruumsh. Who lost an eye to a spear thrust by Corellon. A decisive blow described as an epic noble victory by elves and as an act of vile treachery by orcs. But what did Gruumsh gain in return from this injury? He (and orcs) already knew that elves were "vile" and "treacherous" opponents before this battle was even fought, he learned nothing new, he suffered loss without gaining any advantage. I don't think losing a mythic battle contributes favourably to Gruumsh's image as a warrior, lol.
He suffered a very serious wound, the kind of thing that could prove debilitating to others -- and he fought on. With the continued disadvantage of a major blind spot, he fought on then and continues to fight.
What better symbol for a warrior than that?
What's going to motivate a warrior more -- the guy who never gets hit, and thus has never known pain, or the guy who fought on when he should have fallen, and who didn't let a disadvantage stop him? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 02:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Tyr...waved away.
I understand that; but like I said, it is this way for Gruumsh simply because of two things I think:
Originally Gruumsh was "just" the god of orcs...monsters essentially. Not only that, but if his inspiration isn't from the Eye of Sauron I'm an Easter Bunny.
So "In Story" here is why I think he ACTUALLY has one eye:
Elves know how to write.
They have been telling it their way for so long that even the Orcs believe it for the most part...though there are some groups that show him simply with an eye-patch.
My feeling is that he sacrificed his eye for something. Not that it matters what now...but any god that is "maimed" somehow made a sacrifice to obtain a goal.
Then you are probably going to LOVE the myth I wrote I the other thread....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 02:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The three nearly-blind hags - Fates, Norns, Graeae, whatever - often have to share one eye, sometimes also one tooth. Is this the only eye they have left after "sacrificing" their other (five) eyes to some Well of Knowledge?
Is it Odin's eye? Gruumsh's eye? Vecna's other eye?
(The thought of orcish Gruumsh-hags or lichy Vecna-hags is unsettling, lol.)
In something else I wrote around here recently, I have it where the Graea(sp?) share Odin's eye, because I am trying to marry all the mythos together.
he went to them for wisdom, and that was the price they asked. Only a 'gods eye' can be shared in that manner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 03:14:47
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| I tell you it was lolth who took Gruumsh's eye, she disguised herself as corellon to do it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 04:07:36
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@Markustay,
But your attempt to marry all the mythos together doesn't explain how the three hags obtained Jergals's tooth! Only a "god's tooth" can be shared in this manner.
Unless maybe they've somehow obtained dentures, from Gond or from otherworldly sources. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 12:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another Norse deity, Hodur, was blinded as punishment for "accidentally" murdering Baldur (as the unknowing instrument of Loki). It was the only way he could "atone" for his grief and it provided him great insights and self-reflection afterwards.
You had good arguments, and I'm not trying to refute them.... but wasn't Hodur already blind? I thought that's the whole reason that Loki was helping him aim and such. Or is there some other variation on the myth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 20:08:56
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| -Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society. |
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Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 20:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.
That argument breaks down with Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.
My thinking is that wounded gods stay that way because either they can't simply ignore major wounds inflicted by someone as strong or stronger than them, or because their followers believe they bear the wound.
I'm skeptical that orcs would have believed Gruumsh was wounded unless someone they trusted -- like a tribal shaman -- said it, so Gruumsh's missing eye is due to it being a major wound inflicted by a deity at the same power level or higher.
I'll note, too, that these wounds are ones a mortal would not simply heal from. Lesser wounds, yes, those can be willed out of existence -- if it'll heal on a mortal, it'll heal on a deity. It seems to me that there is some significance to this. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 21:21:05
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Well, here's the thing - then why do some gods appear 'badly'? Missing limbs and what not? I am not saying I disagree with you; in fact, I been shouting the same thing from the rooftops for years (gods are just 'energy', and the center of their consciousness is actually their Divine Domain - you are literally 'inside their head' at that point). I mean, I can understand maybe why Myrkul wants to look like a scary skeleton dude, but why would Talona want to look like a shriveled gross thing? And we have at least three gods missing eyes, two missing limbs (D&D, not just FR), etc, etc. And some even have 'extra' body parts - arms and eyes (and yet, human). And then we have Corellon, who is androgynous (I see them stressing that point in the videos about the upcoming MtoF). We also have several 'gods' who have both male and female aspects (mostly the primordials, coincidentally enough), and also many that have aspects of more than one 'race'.
Which is why there must be MORE to it than that. This is why I sing the virtues of the Dogma Theory - that mortal preconceptions actually affect the 'reality' around them. That the Gods themselves will appear however the group viewing them thinks they should (and it is entirely possible that individuals within the same group - if its a mixed group - will see different things). In other words, its just like an illusion - you see what you expect to see.
Now, to wax metaphysical for a moment, EVERYTHING is an illusion. If magic can not only change physical matter and energy, and 'gods' can split planets in two and change the course history (go back and alter the timeline), and even affect people's memories so they recall things differently - all of which there are canon examples of - then what is our definition of 'real', within the D&Dverse? What is 'death', for that matter? Other than a reassignment of your native plane?
When the First World was being created, those primordial gods just snapped their fingers and things came into existence. If the didn't like it, they snapped their fingers and changed stuff. They could make and unmake anything. And because time itself wasn't a thing back then, when they 'unmade' something, then it never existed in the first place (is your head starting to hurt?) So if these (uber)gods can do all this, then isn't the universe itself a giant sandbox? To be torn down and rebuilt? And mortals won't even remember the way it was before? Isn't that kind of the definition of 'illusions'? Everything is just an ultra-high level illusion spell - one you would have to be Overgod+ class to 'disbelieve'. Things are only 'real' so long as those ancient, Elder gods want them to be.
All that being said, Gruumsh does not have any eyes - he is energy. So is Tyr and anyone else 'missing parts'. We see what we expect to see... UNLESS the deity purposely concentrates on over-writing the 'default' mode (which probably takes energy - the more people involved, the more energy it would have to expend). Gods can do this easily - Cyric doing this to trick some poor bastard at the beginning of Prince of Lies is just one example (and if Cyric was more experienced at godhood, he probably could have seen through Mask's charade as well). Everything takes energy to change, though, so gods will normally just let everything be taken at 'face value'.
Gettng back to Gruumsh & Corellon; canonically, its patently ridiculous at this point - in a post-4e lore world - to even think either of those had any sort of physical forms that could have been harmed. Both of them were Elder Gods - they preexisted the prime Material world, and thus preexists the concept of physicality. Had they been ascended mortals, I could have made the argument that "what happened to you while you were mortal sticks with you when you become divine", and I actually used to think that way about these two. 4e put an end to all of that - we KNOW neither of them were ever mere mortals. Even in that crazy myth I wrote about Gruumsh creating the elves, my idea was that he was an arch-giant (a Jotun), so he was already 'above mortal' when all that would have happened (one of those Empyreals, which are like primordial-class exarchs).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 21:51:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 21:51:18
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Way back when I started working on the Kara-Tur thread on the WotC boards (before 4e showed up and sucked the life right out of the room), I had an idea for a trio of goddesses 'of fate' for the Shou, like an Asian version of the Norns. However, for each of the three I had it where they were aspects of already-existing gods from elsewhere, and one of them was Araushnee the Weaver, who was the one that appeared as a young girl. Thus, my idea was that even Lolth could have aspects that are contrary to her normal appearance and demeanor, because there are enough Shou to empower that aspect.
A RW example of this phenomena, BTW, is called Pareidolia, and a lot of research is being done on it, because we are finding out our minds 'fill in the blanks' far more often than we thought (which has a HUGE bearing on 'eye-witness testimony' - it's actually garbage). Not only can our minds see things that aren't there, it can also 'unsee' things which our brains tell us shouldn't be there (which is far more problematic when you truly think about the implications of that). "These aren't the droids you are looking for" indeed.
So you see what you expect to see, even in the RW. Thats why Grumsh has a missing eye, and is a cyclops, all at the same time. If he appeared to me, he'd probably be wearing a top-hat, be wearing a monocle and tuxedo, and want to go to the opera.
EDIT
And by extension, this is also probably responsible for The Mandela Effect - if large enough groups of people 'interpret' images to be similar (even if incorrect), that becomes 'the new reality'. Its part of the whole 'higher awareness' (mob mentality) thing we humans have lost easy access to. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 21:51:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.
Mask continued to survive, or at least most of Mask did.
Maybe that's enough "benefit" it itself after an encounter with the Chaos Hound.
And Mask has always been a strange and complicated god. Even when he was depicted as a bumbling opportunist in the Avatar novels, long before he was depicted as a cool manipulator in the Twilight War novels. Maybe Mask actually likes being forced to live by his wits and stay on the run, a purpose of his existence being defined and fuelled by his ability to not only "survive" but to even "prevail" under duress ... keeping his ad-hoc, on-the-fly, improvisational abilities honed to a fine edge for his edgy portfolio, lol. A thief can lose everything by letting his guard down for even a moment, a god of thieves must emphasize this quirky strength/weakness to the extreme.
A little odd, I agree, that Kezef is a Wolf instead of a Pig. But "fantasy genre" yes? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2018 21:53:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 22:11:45
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You lost me there - why should Kezef be a pig? 
You know, every time I read the title of this thread, I get a picture in my mind of Forest Gump sitting on a bench, and saying, "it was on a Tuesday..."
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 22:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That argument breaks down with Mask, though... After he tangled with Kezef the Chaos Hound, Mask appeared to be missing a limb. He was constantly changing his shape, so the missing limb varied, but there was always a limb missing. And he was having to stay on the run from Kezef, so I'm thinking there was nothing beneficial, here.
My thinking is that wounded gods stay that way because either they can't simply ignore major wounds inflicted by someone as strong or stronger than them, or because their followers believe they bear the wound.
I'm skeptical that orcs would have believed Gruumsh was wounded unless someone they trusted -- like a tribal shaman -- said it, so Gruumsh's missing eye is due to it being a major wound inflicted by a deity at the same power level or higher.
-I agree with all of that, which is why I don't think that really think that throws a wrench in what I meant. It's a myth, but through five editions of D&D and like forty years of in-game mythos, it's accepted that Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh fought, and Gruumsh was injured by Corellon. That injury, like you said, was grievous damage perpetrated by a deity of equal or greater power.
-What I am saying is, there has to be some kind of benefit for Gruumsh to physically manifest with one eye, to allow his worshipers to refer to him as the One Eye, and so on, if that is indeed the truth of the matter. He could physically manifest with scars all over his body, representing the damage Corellon Larethian did to him, but with two eyes. What good does "playing into the story" do for Gruumsh? Manifesting with two eyes would easily negate the Corellon Larethian put out his eye stories without having to come up with a hokey excuse like "it was always like that". It makes him look like a chump, which is why I say there's got to be something he gets out of it. Orcish unity against everyone else is the best thing I can come up with.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll note, too, that these wounds are ones a mortal would not simply heal from. Lesser wounds, yes, those can be willed out of existence -- if it'll heal on a mortal, it'll heal on a deity. It seems to me that there is some significance to this.
-Mask's origins and his possibly having once been a mortal, as hinted at at the end of The Twilight War books, could be relevant here.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All that being said, Gruumsh does not have any eyes - he is energy. So is Tyr and anyone else 'missing parts'. We see what we expect to see... UNLESS the deity purposely concentrates on over-writing the 'default' mode (which probably takes energy - the more people involved, the more energy it would have to expend). Gods can do this easily - Cyric doing this to trick some poor bastard at the beginning of Prince of Lies is just one example (and if Cyric was more experienced at godhood, he probably could have seen through Mask's charade as well). Everything takes energy to change, though, so gods will normally just let everything be taken at 'face value'.
-Refresh my memory: There was a scene in The Avatar Series where the gods went to the Cynosure for a meeting, and Cyric had Malik in his pocket. What did he see? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Feb 2018 22:41:41 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 22:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.
Based on how non-avatar battles between gods have been portrayed in novels and in splatbooks, I believe that it may be more accurate to say that although the gods don't have physical bodies in the mortal sense, they do have physical bodies in the conceptual sense. A god can be wounded or crippled by another being of such great power that they can affect matter on a conceptual level.
A conceptual body would be both physical and metaphysical (matter, spirit, and concept combined), so while it would become more difficult to harm a deity the higher up they rank, it is not impossible.
It's like when the Q on Star Trek were able to harm each other even though they are otherwise omnipotent and can't be harmed by any means that mortals could conceive of.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 08 Feb 2018 22:38:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 23:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Refresh my memory: There was a scene in The Avatar Series where the gods went to the Cynosure for a meeting, and Cyric had Malik in his pocket. What did he see?
I never read a series with Malik in it, other than the Return of the Archwizards, wherein he was an already-established character (so, after he was 'cursed' with truthfulness). I did read Prince of Lies, with a similar scene (several, I think), but I also never read the follow-up to that, Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (wherein said event may have taken place, given what its about). Especially considering it is that author's character. (I really need to read that one)
In Prince of Lies, its established (in conversation between Oghma and Mystra, IIRC) that what the gods 'see' is based upon their own preconceptions - each god sees something different when they go there. Ergo, their own preconceptions are powerful-enough to override the universal 'defaults' (the dogma stuff I was talking about earlier). Mystra, being who she is, is able to "see through the eyes" of other gods, so she gets a feel for how they think. Its an eye-opening experience for her. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 00:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.
OR - that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 00:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Stepping back for a second, I think we're losing sight of something: deities are balls of divine energy. Gruumsh doesn't actually have eyes. He lets himself be portrayed as such, takes physical avatar form with only one eye, does not punish his priests/shaman for covering an eye in homage of him, so it obviously somehow benefits him. The only benefit I can see would be that by "validating" the Corellon Larethian took his eye, it will always keep the "it's us or them" mentality that is basically the framework of Orc society.
OR - that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy.
You know...THIS is a good idea.
Sacrifices of flesh are ancient and are said to grant power. So, maybe Gruumsh DOES get something from the sacrifices that his shamans, clerics and such make to him...especially their own eye. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 00:56:24
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Ummm... that's a CANON PrC, IIRC...
Complete Warrior, pg.31  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:00:37 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 00:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ummm... that's a CANON PrC, IIRC...
There are no prestige classes in AD&D you heretic! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 01:01:14
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You responded before my edit LOL
Oh, and there are no PrC's in the last two editions either (at least, I don't think there is). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:02:11 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 11:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In Prince of Lies, its established (in conversation between Oghma and Mystra, IIRC) that what the gods 'see' is based upon their own preconceptions - each god sees something different when they go there. Ergo, their own preconceptions are powerful-enough to override the universal 'defaults' (the dogma stuff I was talking about earlier). Mystra, being who she is, is able to "see through the eyes" of other gods, so she gets a feel for how they think. Its an eye-opening experience for her.
Not preconceptions... portfolios. They are materialized obsessions, among the other things. Hence "essence management" by Tempus - keeping Garagos and Red Knight portfolios separate.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
that his people are so faithful that they rip out their own eyes to commemorate him, which MUST be some kind of super faith energy.
(sigh) It's readiness to pay the price. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Topic |
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When did Orcs come to Faerun
