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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  16:03:41  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I just came across a cartoon from the early 1990s called Conan the Adventurer.

Conan is Conan, obviously.

However, the big twist on this Conan is that the snakes he is fighting are snake men - yuan-ti, I guess - and they disguise themselves as human and run their empire as human-appearing overlords.

I was thinking this might be a way to work the Sarruhk into the realms without having them only be gone in the planes or buried in tombs and things. What if the actual founders of Imaskar were Sarrukh overlords that appeared human. :P

This is also very similar to the Terraseer, though they say he's undead.

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  16:11:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gygax was influenced by Conan the Barbarian. My understanding is that D&D initially emerged from the "hero" units (who were basically single characters packing the firepower of whole military units) his son liked to play in their tabletop wargaming, and the Barbarian class in the 1E Unearthed Arcana was blatantly inspired by Gygax Junior's love of Conan the Barbarian as depicted in various comics and in Ahnold's movie.

It seems entirely plausible to me that D&D and Conan comics unashamedly drew inspiration (copied) from each other during this early-1980s era of fantasy-genre copyright innocence.

And, well, "evil snakemen" resembling yuan-ti do seem like a rather obvious fantasy archetype, a (super)natural extrapolation of mythological medusa creatures.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jan 2018 16:17:00
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  16:14:52  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, and they had the Conan modules too back in the day. Half the time, Conan is fighting priesthood of Set so his connection to the Okothian Sarruhk is built in already. The big twist is that in all Conan lore, it is magic that turns people into/gives them control over snakes.

In this cartoon, they are snake people to begin with and you only discover that through magic "star-metal"
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  16:28:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the D&D cartoon from that era featured some "Conan" barbarians and some "yuan-ti" as well. Not certain, it was many years ago and it's not worth (re)watching now, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1289 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  16:50:37  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay and to a much lesser extend Mulhorand are inspired by Stygia from the Conan comics.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  19:28:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mulhorand should have been Stygia... except Thay became Stygia... sort of.

King Kull (who is canonically Conan's Great, great, great, great {etc.} grandpappy) fought lizardmen who were unlike our traditional D&D lizardmen. They had fairly human bodies, but crocodile-like heads, and they could use illusion to disguise themselves as human. I never read those books myself (I did read Conan), but it was a part of another game I used to play a lot - Chivalry & Sorcery. That game even said those monsters were lifted right out of the Kull stories (which is how I know about it). I can see a much older version of Yuan-ti, like proto-Yuanti, being more lizardman like and just using illusions to pose as humans. Sounds very 'Sarrukh'. (EDIT: Those were actually called Serpent Men, so not really Lizardmen at all.)

I don't know if I'd have them running the Imaskari empire from behind the scenes, but I have myself - in homebrew lore I've even posted around here - said that I thought the Terraseer was probably already involved in Imaskar (and that Halaster was also secretly 'lurking' in Netheril, and the two recognized each other as 'fakes', but kept each other's secret, out of self-preservation, and just kept a careful eye on each other... but that's all homebrew, as I've said). You could switch-out the Terraseer for a different Sarrukh, and maybe even imagine another in Jhaamdath, and another in Calimshan at its height - that sort of thing. They like to 'keep tabs' on what others are doing. Its just that the Terraseer broke the 'Watcher's Code', so to speak.

I also don't say those are Sarrukh liches. Some of them might be undead, but most of them are just very ancient and withered 'husks' because they've been around too long, and even their immortal bodies are stating to break-down. Thus, they look like liches, and some are, and because there are so few of them, people just assume they all are. I suppose they might even qualify as Eberorn's 'Undying' now - not quite dead, but not fully alive, either. Guys like Elminster and Khelben would know the truth, but they wouldn't spread that around (knowledge IS power, after all).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2018 00:57:56
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Lord Karsus
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USA
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Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  20:58:48  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2018 :  21:13:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sfdragon
Great Reader

2190 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  00:17:47  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!



who in turn could not hold a conversation like ariel the sorceress....( think that is what her name was) his female companion

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6985 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  00:40:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!



I was playing in a friend's game, and his "world" is earth in the far future. So, I asked if I could bring in some twists from things that we have in our society now. So, my character was Bjorn Thundarrson, who had uncovered marvel comics while hiding as a kid. He'd read about Thor. His father WAS Thundarr, but it was a one night stand from when he'd rescued their village. Anyway, Bjorn grew up and "believed" he was Thor stuck in his mortal form and he needed to find Mjolnir to change into his godly form. He also believed that his father having "the sun sword" meant that Thundarr was Frey reborn.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  01:16:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am currently running a post-apocalyptic setting (with magic) mash-up, that steals bits from EVERYWHERE, and there is definitely a 'Thudarr' vibe to stuff. Its currently on hiatus right now, because my 16 year old doesn't love me anymore (I kid - he's just a typcial 16 year old who'd rather play with his friends), but I am also watching the anime Log Horizon with my next older son (20), and I gotte say, when I get back to my campaign I am going to be stealing from that as well. Its a totally typicla D&D type magical neo-medieval world... and yet, all the ruins are quite obviously '20th century'. Like Thundarr (or, I suppose, Shannara... although I was never into that), except not as silly. I've yet to see a working train (or working anything, for that matter). The main premise of the show is intriguing - apparently, everyone is trapped in a video game they used to play. Makes me wonder whats REALLY going on (no spoilers!)

Anyhow, its pretty good, and if you like that sort of genre (alternate future?), I recommend it. I had just come from watching the last series of SwordArt Online, and was grossly disappointed (not nearly as good as the first two iterations), so I gravitated to another 'stuck in a video game world' anime.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!



who in turn could not hold a conversation like ariel the sorceress....( think that is what her name was) his female companion

Thundarr is literally the definition of 'misogyny'. He's a stereotype of a stereotype. He makes Conan look like a feminist.

Personally, I think he was a closet-furry and had a thing for Ookla.

And since I'm on the subject, Thundarr was always my favorite cartoon since it came out, and it was only usurped of that honor when Pirates of Darkwater came out. I always vowed if I ever became 'rich & famous' I would buy the franchise, just to have them finish it. I hate that the story never got finished. It did have a couple of glaring WTF? pieces of lore (I recall some sort of elevated 'water highway' that I was completely confused by), but still some great storytelling for its day. A bad guy who was actually Bad, not pitiful, and who sometimes won. That was some forward thinking for back then.

Plus, his ship was just off the chain. Some truly drool-worthy BS right there. Triple-barrel rotating cannons? It EATS other ships? It was MADE OF BONE? It literally had an 'underbelly' (Dungeon environment) that the crew avoided. Oh, and it had flyers on board, so it doubled as an aircraft carrier. That thing was AWESOME (and bear in mind I wasn't 10 when I was watching this... I never said I was mature).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2018 01:16:43
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6985 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  02:22:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am currently running a post-apocalyptic setting (with magic) mash-up, that steals bits from EVERYWHERE, and there is definitely a 'Thudarr' vibe to stuff. Its currently on hiatus right now, because my 16 year old doesn't love me anymore (I kid - he's just a typcial 16 year old who'd rather play with his friends), but I am also watching the anime Log Horizon with my next older son (20), and I gotte say, when I get back to my campaign I am going to be stealing from that as well. Its a totally typicla D&D type magical neo-medieval world... and yet, all the ruins are quite obviously '20th century'. Like Thundarr (or, I suppose, Shannara... although I was never into that), except not as silly. I've yet to see a working train (or working anything, for that matter). The main premise of the show is intriguing - apparently, everyone is trapped in a video game they used to play. Makes me wonder whats REALLY going on (no spoilers!)

Anyhow, its pretty good, and if you like that sort of genre (alternate future?), I recommend it. I had just come from watching the last series of SwordArt Online, and was grossly disappointed (not nearly as good as the first two iterations), so I gravitated to another 'stuck in a video game world' anime.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-My favorite cartoon when I was a kid. Really good show.

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!



who in turn could not hold a conversation like ariel the sorceress....( think that is what her name was) his female companion

Thundarr is literally the definition of 'misogyny'. He's a stereotype of a stereotype. He makes Conan look like a feminist.

Personally, I think he was a closet-furry and had a thing for Ookla.

And since I'm on the subject, Thundarr was always my favorite cartoon since it came out, and it was only usurped of that honor when Pirates of Darkwater came out. I always vowed if I ever became 'rich & famous' I would buy the franchise, just to have them finish it. I hate that the story never got finished. It did have a couple of glaring WTF? pieces of lore (I recall some sort of elevated 'water highway' that I was completely confused by), but still some great storytelling for its day. A bad guy who was actually Bad, not pitiful, and who sometimes won. That was some forward thinking for back then.

Plus, his ship was just off the chain. Some truly drool-worthy BS right there. Triple-barrel rotating cannons? It EATS other ships? It was MADE OF BONE? It literally had an 'underbelly' (Dungeon environment) that the crew avoided. Oh, and it had flyers on board, so it doubled as an aircraft carrier. That thing was AWESOME (and bear in mind I wasn't 10 when I was watching this... I never said I was mature).



Yeah, I loved Thundarr as a kid... then I rewatched it as an adult. OMG was it bad. Great for its time, and man did it make me daydream about things..... but man. I remember Pirates of Darkwater a little bit too. I remember there being some kind of bird that liked fruit.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2190 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  02:24:56  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
loved Thundarr as well. didn't like pirates of darkwater or whats his name and the golden lance though...

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  04:59:15  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!


-I remember Thundarr reruns.

-Man, the late-80s-to-early-90s were really just a good time for hokey-yet-good action cartoons. Thundarr, Conan, He-Man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, Transformers, Hulk Hogan's Rock N Wrestling, King Arthur, Mighty Max, Pirates of the Dark Water (criminally underrated), Captain Planet, Centurians (really under-rated)...And that doesn't even take into account the really good superhero cartoons from the rest of the '90s, the Warner Brothers boom, the Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network stuff, and the arrival of anime. What a time to be alive.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31057 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  05:02:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!


-I remember Thundarr reruns.

-Man, the late-80s-to-early-90s were really just a good time for hokey-yet-good action cartoons. Thundarr, Conan, He-Man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, Transformers, Hulk Hogan's Rock N Wrestling, King Arthur, Mighty Max, Pirates of the Dark Water (criminally underrated), Captain Planet, Centurians (really under-rated)...And that doesn't even take into account the really good superhero cartoons from the rest of the '90s, the Warner Brothers boom, the Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network stuff, and the arrival of anime. What a time to be alive.



I loved my 80's cartoons, including some of the ones you've named here... But I've only bought 3 (non-anime) cartoon titles on DVD: Looney Tunes, Dungeons & Dragons, and Animaniacs. I've got my son hooked on the latter -- he's almost 7.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  05:04:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I missed out on Thundarr, lol. No worries, though, He-Man filled the gap. He-Man has a sword and some buddies and some cute girlfriends follow him around, but he's otherwise not very Conan-like at all once you look beyond his bulging toy muscles.

True, I really have no idea who Princess Ariel is or what Ookla the Mok is (outside of google) ... but I know Teela and Orco and Skeletor!

[/Ayrik]
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  05:15:17  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I loved my 80's cartoons, including some of the ones you've named here... But I've only bought 3 (non-anime) cartoon titles on DVD: Looney Tunes, Dungeons & Dragons, and Animaniacs. I've got my son hooked on the latter -- he's almost 7.


-A lot of that stuff isn't available anywhere, which is sad. It's in the water tower, with the Warners. The last old series that was released that I jumped on and was really happy to do so was Gargoyles.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1289 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  06:28:38  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Mulhorand should have been Stygia... except Thay became Stygia... sort of.

King Kull (who is canonically Conan's Great, great, great, great {etc.} grandpappy) fought lizardmen who were unlike our traditional D&D lizardmen. They had fairly human bodies, but crocodile-like heads, and they could use illusion to disguise themselves as human. I never read those books myself (I did read Conan), but it was a part of another game I used to play a lot - Chivalry & Sorcery. That game even said those monsters were lifted right out of the Kull stories (which is how I know about it). I can see a much older version of Yuan-ti, like proto-Yuanti, being more lizardman like and just using illusions to pose as humans. Sounds very 'Sarrukh'. (EDIT: Those were actually called Serpent Men, so not really Lizardmen at all.)

I don't know if I'd have them running the Imaskari empire from behind the scenes, but I have myself - in homebrew lore I've even posted around here - said that I thought the Terraseer was probably already involved in Imaskar (and that Halaster was also secretly 'lurking' in Netheril, and the two recognized each other as 'fakes', but kept each other's secret, out of self-preservation, and just kept a careful eye on each other... but that's all homebrew, as I've said). You could switch-out the Terraseer for a different Sarrukh, and maybe even imagine another in Jhaamdath, and another in Calimshan at its height - that sort of thing. They like to 'keep tabs' on what others are doing. Its just that the Terraseer broke the 'Watcher's Code', so to speak.

I also don't say those are Sarrukh liches. Some of them might be undead, but most of them are just very ancient and withered 'husks' because they've been around too long, and even their immortal bodies are stating to break-down. Thus, they look like liches, and some are, and because there are so few of them, people just assume they all are. I suppose they might even qualify as Eberorn's 'Undying' now - not quite dead, but not fully alive, either. Guys like Elminster and Khelben would know the truth, but they wouldn't spread that around (knowledge IS power, after all).



Thay has the flavour of Stygia, including closeness to Barbarians and a more civilized kingdom, but Mulhorand actually has SET, who techniquely helps rule Mulhorand, of course the other Gods temper his evil.
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

685 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  07:17:19  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, Stygia's Set is actually Yig.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  08:25:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, that is SO strange. I was just reading about Yig earlier today, and then I just recommended that name for something in another thread. Weird or what?

(come to think of it, it was THIS THREAD that made me wind up there, on Wiki).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2018 08:26:27
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

279 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  16:37:39  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Can't hold a candle to Thundarr the Barbarian!


-I remember Thundarr reruns.

-Man, the late-80s-to-early-90s were really just a good time for hokey-yet-good action cartoons. Thundarr, Conan, He-Man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, Transformers, Hulk Hogan's Rock N Wrestling, King Arthur, Mighty Max, Pirates of the Dark Water (criminally underrated), Captain Planet, Centurians (really under-rated)...And that doesn't even take into account the really good superhero cartoons from the rest of the '90s, the Warner Brothers boom, the Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network stuff, and the arrival of anime. What a time to be alive.



Wow... that's bringing back the memories...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1289 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2018 :  18:44:33  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

To be fair, Stygia's Set is actually Yig.



The closest being to Yig in my opinion would be Dendar the Night Serpent.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1741 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  17:52:46  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thundarr was to He-Man/Conan as Go-Bots were to the Transformers.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31057 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  19:10:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Thundarr was to He-Man/Conan as Go-Bots were to the Transformers.



I always thought there was some Star Wars blended in there, too... Ookla the Mok was a big, strong, hairy, occasionally animalistic sidekick who only communicated in growls, much like a certain Wookiee, and Thundarr's Sunsword was just a fantasy lightsaber -- it even needed to be recharged, one episode!

I loved that cartoon, back in the day, but even then, it bothered me that an errant comet would somehow break the moon in half and cause so much of a problem on Earth.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  19:14:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Conan may have come first, but Thundarr had the somewhat original premise of being in a weird, FAR future. He-man was a knock-off of both, and pretty damn bad (Yes, I was already an adult when it aired, but I was even older when Pirates of Darkwater aired, and I could NEVER watch a single episode of He-Man... it was just so... TERRIBLE). She-Ra was slightly more watchable (even the villain was better). Whereas Thundarr was 'campy', He-Man was just plain 'crappy'. Man-E-Faces? REALLY? The first time I heard that I was like, "Just NO..."

Thundercats was kind of like Thundarr in that even though it was also 'campy' (and it pretty dated now, as are all the rest), it took itself seriously enough that you could look past the 'cheese'. He-Man just felt like some sort of bad, private-joke only the writers got. All IMO, of course. I know tons of people loved it (and 'till this day, I still can't figure out why).

Oh, and I was just talking about what a rip-off Drizzt & company were of other franchises, and it only just dawned on me that Drizzt is just Elric of Melnibonea with Battlecat! (I guess the premise there was, "If I steal from EVERYWHERE, is it really stealing?")

I heard good things about Gargoyles, but I never got to watch any of them. Then again, I still haven't watched any of the D&D cartoon either. I guess I'm a Hanna-Barbera man, through-and-through. Go Herculoids!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2018 19:18:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  19:16:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Thundarr was to He-Man/Conan as Go-Bots were to the Transformers.



I always thought there was some Star Wars blended in there, too... Ookla the Mok was a big, strong, hairy, occasionally animalistic sidekick who only communicated in growls, much like a certain Wookiee, and Thundarr's Sunsword was just a fantasy lightsaber -- it even needed to be recharged, one episode!

I loved that cartoon, back in the day, but even then, it bothered me that an errant comet would somehow break the moon in half and cause so much of a problem on Earth.
But you gotta admit, the VISUAL was just SO cool!

You'd always see that broken moon hangin' in the background... it was awesome. Sure, IMPOSSIBLE, but still awesome.

Agreed on Ookla being Chewy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2018 19:17:18
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