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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3721 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  21:28:33  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It didnt disappear. It fractured. Thats why we have space in a crystal sphere and then the bit beyond space (i think the ethereal plane was once described as the space between the planes. Its also why the transitive planes like faerie and shadow only allow travel between places in a single sphere (they also fractured), you can use the shadow plane to walk from waterdeep to anauroch but not to greyhawk.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:19:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, it took me FOREVER to find, but I KNEW there was a race I was thinking of...

In the 1e Fiend Folio Githyanki were specifically said to BE humans -
quote:
Millenia ago the mind flayers conquered a race of evil humans, and bound them to service.

Now, the pic inside doesn't look very human, but neither would an early hominid. the illustration on the cover is much better, and despite the sallow skin coloration, it appears that it could possibly be an emaciated (desiccated?) human, or human spin-off. Evolution and living with illithids will do that to you. On the other hand, the Githzerai looked VERY human - like human monks. This lead me to believe that it wasn't until after the split (which means AFTER their hard-won freedom from the illithids) did the githyanki start to look the weird way they do. Fast forward, and over the course of years and editions Githzerai have started to look like their Githyanki cousins. We also have some off-shoots, some of which don't look human at all (the Gith).

I'm not sure what to make of all that. i would hazard to gus some unknown factor (DNA) was spliced into their gene pool, and as much as I'd love to blame it on the illithids, most of the mutations appear to have occurred after they got away from them. Perhaps something to do with living I the Astral, but then why were the Githzerai eventually affected? Was it some sort of virus the Githynaki picked-up in the Astral and they passed it on to the githzerai? Also, the Githzerai looked more human when they had a truce with the illithids - could the theoretical 'Gith Virus' have been created/activated by the Illithids, and the mindflayers didn't spread it to the Githzerai until after they became more hostile toward one-another?

Be that as it may, I give you the Buomann from the 3e Planer Handbook, which - when I first layed eyes on it - just screamed 'old-school Githzerai' to me. I thought that's what it was, until i read the accompanying text. Those guys look more like the original (2e) Githzerai than the current Githzerai do! (elongated head and extremities, and the monk-like manner of dress)

So, anyone? Any ideas? Someone thought the Buomann were githzerai and hence the 'wrong' pics? (lame, but it works). The Buomann are ex-Githzerai who 'survived' the theoretical mutation virus? I'm not really loving anything I can come up with. Regardless, I will have to both agree and disagree with Wooly. The Gith were most certainly 'human', or, at least, part of the same species-classification that modern-day humans have derived from (so our forbears may not have looked all that much like either group, or it may have looked like something 'in the middle'). Something happened to the Gith (yanki and later zerai) that made them look very different.. almost 'reptilian'. And then we have a complete unrelated race that looks a lot like how one branch used to look.

Either way, I need to start separating-out modern humans from the Creator race - for the Creators I will use 'Mankind' (reminds me of 'Mankin'). Thus, we can fudge things like 'used to be human' - nearly every sub-group should be differing sub-groups from the originals.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:30:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:27:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It didnt disappear. It fractured. Thats why we have space in a crystal sphere and then the bit beyond space (i think the ethereal plane was once described as the space between the planes. Its also why the transitive planes like faerie and shadow only allow travel between places in a single sphere (they also fractured), you can use the shadow plane to walk from waterdeep to anauroch but not to greyhawk.

Well, I was just trying to simplify things. Yes, pieces 'flew outward' from a common center (the Big Bang?), but to the people still existing* on all those pieces, it would just appear as if massive chunks of earth simply disappeared (I'm thinking a lot of the 'matter' wound up in the elemental planes, since those four PLUS the Prime is what I consider the Material plane).

*Note I say 'existing' rather than 'living', because I think that most - if not all - would have had to have been placed in some sort of suspended animation until such a time as the Crystal Spheres could be shaped back into habitable worlds. This may have been minutes, or countless millennia - we have no way of knowing. To those mortal races (and other flora and fauna), no time will have appeared to have passed. Thus, the sarrukh and others will have 'looked up and seen the skies darkening', and then suddenly its all over, but the world is suddenly very strange and different. They wouldn't know that a billion years may have gone by before they were re-seeded onto the worlds (or rather, the worlds were 'built around them').

For those of you who have read David Weber's excellent Safehold series, its like how all the humans woke-up on Safehold. They had no knowledge of 'the journey', and even their memories had been altered.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:29:45
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:36:41  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Githyanki look the way they do, I would say, because of prolonged generations living upon the Astral Plane (where gravity is a non-issue really) AND because they live in imitation of their Lich-Queen.

The Githzerai lived for generations upon the Chaotic Neutral Plane of Pandemonium and so different "physics" were in play there.

I don't go by new art changing the entire look of a species and simply go with the idea that they are artistic representations only...not true anatomy.

That aside...this conversation took a wild turn away from where I was thinking it would go

Not off topic at all...but it amazes me how the same thing can be talked about in such different ways.

Back to what I was trying to hit on to begin with:

Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like?

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1005 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:47:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It didnt disappear. It fractured. Thats why we have space in a crystal sphere and then the bit beyond space (i think the ethereal plane was once described as the space between the planes. Its also why the transitive planes like faerie and shadow only allow travel between places in a single sphere (they also fractured), you can use the shadow plane to walk from waterdeep to anauroch but not to greyhawk.



In fact, in 3e you can use the plane of Shadow to travel the whole multiverse. So, technically, you can travel from Waterdeep to Greyhawk using the plane of Shadow. Just, the time it would took you maybe would be unthinkably long, than just going to a place in your same universe/sphere.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:47:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like?

NOPE - its NEVER been detailed. It hasn't even been named. That's why I just steal the Warcraft lore in that regard. Its actually quite good - armies of demons invading planet after planet using those portals. They enslaved the orcs and used them to come over. I would play it the same way for FR, but spin as the Orc Gods, instead of demons (Orc... Orcus... NAH)

Are you thinking about re-purposing something for this?


The only thing we know is that those orcs were gray, rather than the typical green, and somewhat smarter (more 'civilized', perhaps).

Gray orcs... Gray Elves... I got nuthin'.


*AS an aside, the worlds of Warcraft really should be considered within the boundaries of the D&Dverse, since official D&D products were published converting the Diablo material, and Warcraft itself was written-up for 3e (OGL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:55:52
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1005 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  22:52:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the Orc World... dunno. There is no mention of that in Old Empires or Lost Empires, that are the books that talks about this world (that I have). So... I guess, you're free to design it whatever you want.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  23:29:39  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are the only mentions of it in the Empires books?

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  23:33:29  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Are you thinking about re-purposing something for this?




Yes, yes I am thinking about it...but it would be at the ass end of an already long list of "projects" I've sworn I was going to do.

Unless inspiration hit me...then it might move to the front.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  00:03:50  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lets just put it this way:

The Sumerian Gods came to the Forgotten Realms...and the Orcgate Wars resulted in MOST of them being killed.

It just so happens that the Sumerian word for Mountain is "Kur"

The Sumerian word for Netherworld is "Kurnugi"

The Sumerian word for Lock is "Sikkuru"

The Sumerian word for Mountainhead (or who beside the mountainhead abides) is "Imkurgar"

The Sumerian word for Enemy is "Lukur"...a combination of Lu and Kur...LU having the meaning of "an action/way" in words such as KALU (confine), NAPALU (destroy), BELU (extinguish), KALU (hold), and etc. The main enemy of Sumerians were usually raiders from the mountains. The Mulan/Sumerians main enemies may have been from a world that they had to "Lock" to prevent their foes from invading them.

All these words share the element of "Kur"...and with one small twist I get "Urk" from it.

To me, I think the Orcgate led to a world the Sumerians considered a mountainous "hell" filled with demons...or in our case Orcs.

I could make one sweet world out of the World of "Imkurgar" where Gruumsh the One-Eyed had his way and the Orcs rule supreme.

EDIT: forgot the big one: LU also means "Man" (but not mankind) so it wouldn't be hard to see that LUKUR is "The enemy of Man"


AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 06 Jan 2018 00:28:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  02:15:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so thanks to Zero, I found a bunch of 5e D&D videos, and I like what I see. (I try to avoid Youtube - its like a black-hole for my free time LOL)

Mindflayers

Githyanki & Githzerai

The Gith one answers a LOT of questions, and YES, they are MOST DEFINITELY human. But they lay eggs (I had forgotten that, but the video points it out). Mike Mearls hints that the Mindflayers may have 'altered' them somehow. Also some interesting things about dragons (there as a connection there I hand't noticed before), and even Giants were mentioned. Either someone has been listening to a lot of my theories, or this is an example of 'great minds think alike' (or rather, more like "drawing the same exact conclusions from the same exact lore spread over nearly 50 years").

Mindflayers altered them... dragons are somehow involved... Gith command (red) dragons and Tiamat is a staunch ally... Gith lay eggs...

Mindflayers 'had' a universe-spanning empire, that used Spelljamming (and Mike Mearls is spinning it as a type 'dimensional travel', so it sounds like some of what myself and Gray Richardson came up with years ago is starting to become canon - that you are 'crossing into another plane' when you spelljam), and yet, there are NO MINDFLAYER RUINS. largest most powerful empire in all of existence, and there is no evidence of it, anywhere. All very mysterious. I'm really liking what I am hearing - folks are expecting - due to the direction of the recent videos - that some sort of planer handbook and/or spelljammer love is in the works. I think we are about to peel back another layer of D&D lore, folks.

Oh, and he makes a point of saying Tiamamt was imprisoned in the Nine Hells the whole time (that these deals were being struck). He repeats it in such a way that makes it suspect (like he wanted to make sure everyone needed to be aware of that fact, because something pivotal revolved around it). The whole thing reeks of being 'Doctor Who-ish' in flavor (TIME is definitely involved - he also harps on the 'timelessness' of it all).

I already find myself lining up to buy a book that hasn't even been announced yet!

Mindflayers aren't a race? He says that! They are just 'meat puppets'! I never looked at them that way before. Fascinating. I'm squirming in my chair right now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 02:52:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  02:20:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and sorry for the side-topic, Dalor. I figure you must be done with the actual topic, since there is no information forthcoming.

HOWEVER (and this is a stretch lol), you might say that my discussing and linking to videos pertaining to 'other worlds' (and the planer/cosmological structure of the D&Dverse) pertains directly to the topic. It seems that the 'team' has gotten most of it what it wanted to out of FR, and they are broadening their scope for the next series of projects. So if Planes-hopping is going to be the next big thing (*cough* MtG Planeswalkers *cough*), then it stands to reason that right now the 'iron is hot' for stuff pertaining to traveling to other worlds 9the worlds themselves, and methods of getting there).

See how I brought that back around? If we ever finally meet in person, you can buy me a beer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6674 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  03:34:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The Githyanki look the way they do, I would say, because of prolonged generations living upon the Astral Plane (where gravity is a non-issue really) AND because they live in imitation of their Lich-Queen.

The Githzerai lived for generations upon the Chaotic Neutral Plane of Pandemonium and so different "physics" were in play there.

I don't go by new art changing the entire look of a species and simply go with the idea that they are artistic representations only...not true anatomy.

That aside...this conversation took a wild turn away from where I was thinking it would go

Not off topic at all...but it amazes me how the same thing can be talked about in such different ways.

Back to what I was trying to hit on to begin with:

Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like?



There is incredibly little information on that. In fact, I'm not sure that people from Toril ever went through and it may have only been in the other direction. The only places I can think it was mentioned was Old Empires, Powers and Pantheons, and Races of Faerun.

Markustay does have a good idea with basically stealing from the Warcraft concept though. A world filled with orcs, ogres, "forest trolls", minotaurs, etc... would very much work. The main thing is that these orcs are noted as being extremely religious, which might mean zealotry and sacrifices similar to what the Mazticans were doing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jan 2018 03:39:05
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  20:05:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You ever make meatballs? You got down to the last glop of chopmeat, and its too big for one meatball, so you rip it in half (best you can judge), and then roll it into two separate smaller balls.

Yeah... JUST LIKE THAT.

(Playdoh would also work - everyone played with playdoh).


-Right, which would have caused massive change to a whole ton of stuff that was never really catalogued in any way (pre- or -post-4e). You can invoke Ao "making no one remember" or something like that, but it's hokey.

-Really, what I am getting down to I guess, is that it was a retcon that was, and still is, stupid lol.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  17:16:19  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple of things:

Vhostym could destroy worlds...but couldn't use Wish Magic to heal his body?!

The Orc-World of Ekur is coming along...going to be fun on that one.

Now back to "other worlds" shall we?

So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds?

AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30811 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  18:19:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

A couple of things:

Vhostym could destroy worlds...but couldn't use Wish Magic to heal his body?!


My thing is, if all he wanted was an eclipse, instead of a convoluted plot to gain the power to move a celestial body -- why not just a big ball of magical darkness?

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Now back to "other worlds" shall we?

So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds?



Lost Ships contains a few passing references to Elminster visiting other crystal spheres. We also know he was an unwilling visitor to the saurial homeworld; we don't know anything about that particular world, other than a few visual details in the novel. Some theorize it is Abeir; I reject that, myself, since the novel was written before that retcon and because the saurials had gods.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3581 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  21:44:33  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Now back to "other worlds" shall we?

So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds?



Lost Ships contains a few passing references to Elminster visiting other crystal spheres. We also know he was an unwilling visitor to the saurial homeworld; we don't know anything about that particular world, other than a few visual details in the novel. Some theorize it is Abeir; I reject that, myself, since the novel was written before that retcon and because the saurials had gods.



Lost Ships? I don't think I have EVER read that...putting it on the list.

As for the Saurial Homeworld...what book was that in?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  22:06:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe it was in the Saurial trilogy, which was a 'pt.2' to the Finder/Alias trilogy.

IIRC, a powerful tricertops-looking wizard cast a spell that would allow two beings of equivalent power (proportionate to their respective worlds) to 'swap places'. you see normal teleportation/Gating between Toril and Ab... the Saurial homeworld... did not work.

And Wooly, arguing that some thing 'didn't exist' at a certain point in time in a game/fictional setting is akin (to me) of saying the Earth couldn't possibly have been round during the Stoneage, else we would have heard about it from the Cavemen.

A lack of knowledge about something we now know to have existed changes the way we need to address previous lore. Abeir did exist, but writers at that time did not know about it. Of course - from a meta-gaming PoV - it wasn't Abeir, but that does NOT preclude the fact that it now can be.

Oh, and the people on Eberron think they have 'gods' to. They're wrong. People are fallible (especially when it comes to religions), and gaming sourcebooks (especially when it comes to FR) are extremely fallible (only comics are worse, because they are constantly changing their continuity... which is why I no longer read them).

Lastly, there were primordials (and possibly primal spirits, archfey, etc) on Abeir. Its not like we have ANY canon saying some of those primordials - oh, lets just say the ELEMENTAL LORDS - were ever able to have Faiths and grant spells, now do we? Hmmmm?



Oh, and just to be annoying... I think the Shalarin came from there too.


EDIT:
We could even look at it this way (thinking on the Shalarin thing now) - it is still 'one world' - Abeir Toril. We mortals can only interact with 3, possibly 4 (time) dimensions. There are a LOT more than that, and 'gods' (Overgods, etc) can interact with other layers we can't perceive. So if Ao shoved some of the world into a 'side place' (which is pretty-much what happened), then it is still 'One World' (the lore even says it occupies the same space, but is 'out of sync'). We mortals just can't 'see' (perceive) the place the rest of the world is in, and the folks that got stuck on that side can't perceive the Toril side. One world, with half the people not being able to 'see' the other (its a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea).

In fact, there was one really good story in Jack Vance's Dying Earth novel where there were two groups of people living in an ancient city, and neither was aware of the other . They literally couldn't see each other, because of thousand of years of conditioning. An outsider comes along, and is confused as hell. All these people just passing by each other and completely ignoring one-another... but both could see him. I think that's what it might be like for some beings, in regards to Abeir and Toril. Maybe not deities, but perhaps some higher-lev types (like those Estelar, or Overpowers, or primordials themselves). Its like being on two sides of the same street, but those one one side can't see the other. Someone 'in the middle' would see both. One world - Abeir-Toril - separated in ways we mortals can't even fathom.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2018 22:12:57
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Jan 2018 :  04:09:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, we know other worlds exist beyond Abeir and Toril. I don't see where the benefit is in rewriting past lore to make Abeir fit as the saurial homeworld, instead of simply assuming that the saurial homeworld is another world.

We can do contortions to make something fit where it doesn't, or we can go with what the authors clearly intended: some other world (and one of the creators of the saurials was the guy who came up with the name Abeir-Toril for the name of the planet the Realms is on).

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 17 Jan 2018 :  21:04:26  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was the saurian homeworld firmly established as being in another crystal sphere or plane?

If not, there might be a possibility that it's an undiscovered planet in Realmspace.




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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 17 Jan 2018 21:05:18
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Jan 2018 :  22:03:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Was the saurian homeworld firmly established as being in another crystal sphere or plane?

If not, there might be a possibility that it's an undiscovered planet in Realmspace.




Basically, all we know is that the plants were different, it had saurials and other reptilian critters, the saurials had gods, and when the world was scried upon, there was no mention of the sky being anything other than the standard issue blue.

However, we do have written descriptions of the other worlds of Realmspace, with nary a word about saurials.

There's also the fact that it didn't seem that difficult for Moander to access the world, cast a spell preventing straight teleportation, and then for Elminster to teleport away afterward -- thinks I that if Ao had gone thru all the effort of making a new world to keep primordials and deities separate, that it wouldn't been that easy to get to.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jan 2018 22:07:55
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sleyvas
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USA
6674 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2018 :  23:17:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Was the saurian homeworld firmly established as being in another crystal sphere or plane?

If not, there might be a possibility that it's an undiscovered planet in Realmspace.




Basically, all we know is that the plants were different, it had saurials and other reptilian critters, the saurials had gods, and when the world was scried upon, there was no mention of the sky being anything other than the standard issue blue.

However, we do have written descriptions of the other worlds of Realmspace, with nary a word about saurials.

There's also the fact that it didn't seem that difficult for Moander to access the world, cast a spell preventing straight teleportation, and then for Elminster to teleport away afterward -- thinks I that if Ao had gone thru all the effort of making a new world to keep primordials and deities separate, that it wouldn't been that easy to get to.



Yeah, and Moander transported the Saurials via one of the standard outer planes, not a direct prime to prime connection (I forget where he transported them through).

Plus the second edition monstrous manual says this

Saurials are intelligent bipedal lizards descended from creatures similar to dinosaurs. Saurials are not native to the Realms, but originate from an alternate Prime Material Plane. Most saurials now in the Realms were kidnapped from their homes and brought to the Realms as slaves by the evil god Moander. Upon Moander’s death, these saurials elected to remain in the Realms and make it their home. They live in a single village in the Lost Vale in the Desertsmouth Mountains east of Anauroch. They are still recovering physically and spiritually from the deprivations they suffered under Moander, so very few saurials travel far from the shelter of the Lost Vale, though this may change with the passing of the years and as their numbers increase.

Which hints heavily that they come from another crystal sphere. That being said, it wouldn't be a problem if they came from the same crystal sphere. The problem comes from them "coming" from Abeir in the modern age with gods, wizards, etc...

What does work is that we can have Saurials and Sarrukh originating on another world and coming to Abeir-Toril prior to the first (let's call it the "Batrachi Sundering" to separate it from the "Elven Sundering") Sundering. Then we can shoot all those Saurials over to Abeir just for flavor purposes, and we can have the ones that showed up in the novels coming from wherever that homeworld was. I think we all get a win out of doing it that way.

BTW, one of the things that this does deal with is that IF the sun was destroyed prior to this, how'd anything survive that needs it for heat. We simply have the "Sauroids" interloping to the world possibly during this Shadow Epoch (maybe even this is one way that Ubtao/Qotal betrayed the other primordials), but after a new sun source came along.


As an aside, this whole multiple destructions of the sun so fits the storylines of the central American mythologies that Quetzcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, and other deities reign as the sun at various points. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that traditional Aztec religion has "four Tezcatlipocas". There's the one named Tezcatlipoca (aka Tezca), Quetzcoatl (aka Qotal), Xipe Totec (the flayed one... aka Zaltec if we only take the warlike aspects of this god), and Huitzilopochtli (who it seems like they combined some of him into Qotal as he's represented by hummingbirds and butterflies and feathers)






From the wiki on Tezcatlipoca

Another story of creation goes that Tezcatlipoca turned himself into the sun, but Quetzalcoatl was furious possibly because they were enemies, he is a night god or due to his missing foot, so he knocked Tezcatlipoca out of the sky with a stone club. Angered, Tezcatlipoca turned into a jaguar and destroyed the world. Quetzalcoatl replaced him and started the second age of the world and it became populated again. Tezcatlipoca overthrew Quetzalcoatl, forcing him to send a great wind that devastated the world, and the people who survived were turned into monkeys. Tlaloc, the god of rain, then became the sun. But he had his wife taken away by Tezcatlipoca. Angered in turn, he would not make it rain for several years until, in a fit of rage, he made it rain fire with the few people who survived the assault turning into the birds. Chalchihuitlicue the Water Goddess then became the sun. But she was crushed by Tezcatlipoca's words who accused her of just pretending to be kind. She cried for many years and the world was destroyed by the resulting floods. Those people who survived the deluge were turned into fish.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 17 Jan 2018 :  23:22:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty sure the novels also didn't say the sky was blue. That was just an assumption at the time, just as we have no idea what the color of its seas might have been.

We know the saurials came from some other world - a world that was 'unheard of' before they came to the Realms (despite their already being NATIVE members of the race elsewhere on Toril!) In 4e we found out about some other world no-one ever heard of. The way I look at it, why wouldn't they be the same?

We have had novels contradicting the 4e lore (the original 4e lore - it morphed over time) that show BOTH gods and magic ON ABEIR. There are four primordials that we KNOW - from past lore - that were able to grant spells just like a god. Thus, it is entirely possible that their was some sort of religion on Abeir, whether the gods 'worked' or not (because it could have also been a case like Eberron - sure it had religions, but no-one was sure if they were real or not).

The ONLY argument, as far as I am concerned, that holds any water is that Abeir (as a separate world not attached to Toril) did not exist at that time - the time the novels about Saurials were written. But that argument is meta-gaming, and in-setting, there really is zero reason why the Saurial homeworld couldn't be Abeir. In fact, considering the odd bit of magic that the tricertops-dude had to do, (and the fact that Elminster seems to not only not have been there before, but he seemed to be having FUN, like a kid with a new toy!) I would say that the Saurial homeworld is definitely 'out of sync' with the rest of the D&Dverse. Otherwise, why isn't the world ever written-up or mentioned in any SJ product? Two can play at that 'it was not a thing' argument.

No Planescape or Ravenloft product either.. its like the saurial homeworld was somehow... HIDDEN... back then. Almost as if some Overpower (or dino-related ancient primal power... who may also BE that overpower) was trying to hide it or something.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jan 2018 01:11:56
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 18 Jan 2018 :  01:53:57  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Sarrukh are not from another world, all the Creator races are native to Toril.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15245 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2018 :  03:43:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope, they're not.

And thats canon.

They were native to a world called Abeir-Toril, which no longer exists.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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