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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:39:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, I think what we had there on Toril was a world-spanning cataclysm that didn't quite wipe out everyone and everything, but pretty damn close to it. Even subsea and Underdark races would have been affected, that's how broad a scope the devastation was. It made Krynn's cataclysm look like a Sunday picnic. Speaking of the Underdark - I also recall some lore about how the creation of Abeir led to the creation of the Underdark on Toirl, since Ao had to steal tons of material from somewhere (however, that may have been retconed out, since gods - especially gods of Overpower stature that can command the Elemental Lords - don't really need to 'find' anything).

Cultures more toward the center of the continent (or flyers, but magic may have also 'run amok') would have fared better than coastal groups, so that could explain some of it. There's always something that survives.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:41:39
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:41:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for Strahd - I've also seen evidence linking Ravenloft to Mystara. Now, Mystara had a piece of Blackmoor, as did Greyhawk, but Blackmoor was its own setting first, so borrowing from our metagaming knowledge, Blackmoor should have been a culture on the First World, - the protohuman culture. And bits and pieces of Blackmoor (and its legends) have been found on hundreds of worlds. It left quite legacy. Thus Ravenloft may have been in Blackmoor, during that Realms early (pre-technology) period, and was somehow 'saved'. Memories of RL are thus part of the local tales on both Mystara and Oerth. The Isle of Dread is yet another piece of real estate they have in common. But with RL firmly in the Shadowfell, its fairly easy to say the IoD went to the Feywild - a LOT of those early settlements and important locales wound up 'floating' in various transitive planes (Astral, Ethereal, Feywild, and shadowfell), and a few may have even wound up in the Elemental planes. I am sure Gods (Dark Powers?) were involved in all that 'saving', which is also how some of the Creator Races managed to survive through the cataclysm.

In my homebrew mythos, Gaea quickly moved over the dead body of Ymir (the Prime Material) and merged her essence with his, thus enabling life to continue despite the shattered nature of the Prime Material. All life should have been extinguished when it was just living on flying chunks of rock and other stuff, but the merging of the two Supernals allowed the other Gods enough time to coalesce the fragmented matter into Crystal Spheres. They are even still doing this to this day (I didn't think so, but I read a scene in a novel recently where Lathander was telling Chauntea he had just come from watching 'The Birth of a World' (Crystal Sphere). It was actually a kind of creepy scene - Lathander was a 'young man' and chauntea was an 'old lady', and he was putting the moves on her pretty hard. I didn't read any further after that.

ANYWAY... it was only because Gaea represent 'life itself' that anything was able to survive when it shouldn't have - we might even picture all of them being put in a magical 'suspended animation', until worlds were ready for their incorporation (and the people's memories may have even been adjusted to not know about the past - they would have just thought their gods created them whole-cloth on those worlds). thats how I explained how so much survived, anyhow. Thus, Strahd and ravenloft may have been an 'echo' stored from the past (the past even from the perspective of the Gods war) that wound up in the Shadowfell. In fact, if we look at the D&Dverse as some sort of massive computer, everything that 'has gone before' should be stored somewhere. We now human minds (intellect) gets stored in the astral when someone dies, so perhaps something like that occurs on a larger scale for cultures and important places/events. The Shadowfell and the Feywild could be just two of such 'external storage drives' - thats why time doesn't behave right in regards to them (stuff from all different time-periods gets stored there).

So perhaps Ravenoft is just an old 'folder' someone hasn't bothered to delete yet.

And all of this made me think of that portal in the SoFS on that island, or rather, the whole interior of the island is a portal. The descripion makes one think it takes you back to Toril's 'stoneage', but Toril never really had a stoneage. It gets even weirder in that it describes prehistoric elves! So maybe that portal goes to Abeir-Toril - that would make a lot of sense. It takes you to a world that no longer exists. For allw e kow, maybe thats where the saurials are/were from - they're a relic - they come from the past.

EDIT:
I think I may have just figured out that Strahd was the very first vampire.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:44:09
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:48:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if each God (or rather, group of gods) have their own 'external hard drive' where they save the stuff they like? this differs from my old theory that each Crystal Sphere had one (this greatly reduces the number, and actually makes more sense by involving deities). So if a world/setting/Crystal sphere 'dies', the storage place still exists, and those 'gods' become just an echo of what they were... like the Dark Powers. They are really just memories of gods.

The Feywild may just be the Seldarine's storage area.

This makes me think now that Abeir is more like a transitive plane than just a world, or another Crystal Sphere. Now I'm back to thinking of it as "Ao's Shed". Is it possible that Nerath IS Abeir? (or rather, a part of Abeir - its not a world map). Sticking the Nentir Vale on Abeir would make the conversion I was doing SO much easier.

And if its a plane, like the Shadowfell and the Feywild, then 'size doesn't matter'. Its unlimited. We can shove as much as we want in there.

I think I just turned D&D's planer structure into a cellphone plan.

"Just sign-up for the family plan and you get unlimited storage and downloads" - Asmodeus, the infernal saleman

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:55:08
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:10:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.



I think it's logical to assume there's a connection betwixt the saurials and the sarrukh.

I just don't see that it's logical to assume the saurial homeworld is Abeir, especially when there is information indicating it isn't.

There's also the fact we knew of the saurials being from another planet long before anyone decided that Abeir and Toril were separate worlds.

And another thing I just recalled: when Morala scried on the saurial homeworld, she saw Elminster being attacked by flying creatures... There was no mention at all of the sky -- which means it was your standard-issue blue sky, not the Steelsky.



Reread what I wrote Wooly in the entry above it. I was stating that for all we know the Sarrukh and Saurials were originally from another world (their Homeworld) and brought here by Primordials or gods (which Ubtao makes sense there with his link to dinosaurs, as does the World Serpent, and possibly even Moander now that I think on it if some of them fled that world because he was rotting all the vegetation in an area).... THEN the twinning of the worlds happened 4 thousand years later. This lets us put saurials on Abeir in large quantities.

EDIT: and now I realize why you responded as you did. I left out the ending. I should have written "It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir-Toril to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse."




There's still the issue that the lore about saurials indicates they did not come from Abeir.

That's my objection: Not only does the lore indicate they did not come from Abeir, the existence of that lore means that if you say they came from Abeir, you have to provide explanations for the issues I've already raised. If you have the saurials come from some unspecified world that isn't Toril or Abeir (as was clearly intended by the saurials' creators, since the Abeir retcon came more than a decade later), then you don't need any special explanation.

On top of all that, I don't see why there is any benefit at all to changing their backstory. Having them come from Abeir creates problems, but how does it improve anything?

So the options are: the saurials are from Abeir, which requires contortions and handwaving to reconcile with prior lore, or you stick with the known information, and assume they're from someplace else entirely.



Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.

It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:19:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Question: "Abeir-Toril" is "Toril", correct? "Abeir" was created out of nothing, but "Toril" remained the same, sans certain elements that were sent to "Abeir".

-That's how I remember it, but I don't know if anything has been further explained (and a lot of explanation was needed).



In 1e through 3.5e, Abeir-Toril was the Forgotten Realms.

4e gave us an explanation that the Forgotten Realms was Toril and it had a "twin" of it that was created long ago in -31000 DR (an event hinted at in GHotR which came out just before 4e). The twin was named Abeir.

Thus, the world PRIOR to the twinning via this conjecture was Abeir-Toril. Now, I'd imagine many people continued to call "Toril" by the name "Abeir-Toril" after this twinning... and I'd imagine similar happened on Abeir. Thus, the confusion. Or at least, that's the easiest way to explain the sudden retcon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:41:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just curious... this entry from GHotR... Do we have any information on either Zhoukoudien or Omo? While the initial thought is that the Titan would be a traditional Titan ala Annam's brood... that can't be the case since Annam and Othea don't produce their children for another 1500 years. So, I'm guessing Omo is a dawn titan aka primordial who killed the leader of the Batrachi? And since he was a "thane" he was some kind of "chieftain"/"leader" amongst primordials.

c. –31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One’s reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.

SIDENOTE: You just don't KNOW how much I'd love to change that name of Omo to Mormo (a titan from the Scarred Lands setting by Sword and Sorcery..... Mormo, Mother of Serpents, Queen of Witches who created the serpentine races)... but damned if that wouldn't be mixing the lore of White Wolf and WotC and THAT would border on illegal. Of course.... if it were Omo, Mother of Serpents, Queen of Witches... that's not technically... nah, don't go there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31303 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:44:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.

It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.



The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:49:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Is it possible that Nerath IS Abeir? (or rather, a part of Abeir - its not a world map). Sticking the Nentir Vale on Abeir would make the conversion I was doing SO much easier.



That was the theory of the time, but the lore of Nerath make this a mess if you want to go that way. Much like the saurial world, Nerath has gods (gods as in divine beings, not just primordials, that also exists in that world), so this already rules out Abeir as the world were Nerath is located.

For adding stuff, is the fact that Nerath is not a world dominated by dragons. It was, in ancient past. While in Abeir, dragons dominate the world currently.

So, making Abeir the world were Nerath exist would take the same level of handwaving as doing the same with the saurial world.

Incidentally, Nerath has more in common with Greyhawk than with the Realms. It shares the alternate "Earth" spelling of Oerth and its parallel sibling worlds.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1876 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:51:01  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Random side note - I always assumed that Omo was taken from the island name in Denmark.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:55:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.

It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.



The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods.



(bonks Wooly on the head)...man you are stubborn... reread what I said

Oh, and since you're doing that stubborn thing, I'll play back at ya... Abeir does not have gods, just as much as Toril does not have Primordials.... There are no absolutes.... and I'll take it further, just to nettle things.... and during the spellplague since Primordials were allowed to transfer from Abeir.... the reverse may also be true.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3170 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  02:15:48  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Question: "Abeir-Toril" is "Toril", correct? "Abeir" was created out of nothing, but "Toril" remained the same, sans certain elements that were sent to "Abeir".

-That's how I remember it, but I don't know if anything has been further explained (and a lot of explanation was needed).



In 1e through 3.5e, Abeir-Toril was the Forgotten Realms.

4e gave us an explanation that the Forgotten Realms was Toril and it had a "twin" of it that was created long ago in -31000 DR (an event hinted at in GHotR which came out just before 4e). The twin was named Abeir.

Thus, the world PRIOR to the twinning via this conjecture was Abeir-Toril. Now, I'd imagine many people continued to call "Toril" by the name "Abeir-Toril" after this twinning... and I'd imagine similar happened on Abeir. Thus, the confusion. Or at least, that's the easiest way to explain the sudden retcon.


-No, I know that; Abeir originally meant nothing and was added to make the planet at the beginning chronologically of the big Forgotten Realms info codex, yada, yada, yada, I'm not new here lol.

-I meant, post 4e retcon, did "Abeir-Toril" disappear and in its place two separate planets, "Abeir" and "Toril"s magically appear, or did only "Abeir" magically appear and the planet that was once "Abeir-Toril" continue to exist, now called "Toril". The latter, fine, it works, but the former, that causes some huge continuity issues that, yeah, you can explain away with the deus ex machina of Ao, but still

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Jan 2018 02:18:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  02:29:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You ever make meatballs? You got down to the last glop of chopmeat, and its too big for one meatball, so you rip it in half (best you can judge), and then roll it into two separate smaller balls.

Yeah... JUST LIKE THAT.

(Playdoh would also work - everyone played with playdoh).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31303 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  03:05:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.

It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.



The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods.



(bonks Wooly on the head)...man you are stubborn... reread what I said

Oh, and since you're doing that stubborn thing, I'll play back at ya... Abeir does not have gods, just as much as Toril does not have Primordials.... There are no absolutes.... and I'll take it further, just to nettle things.... and during the spellplague since Primordials were allowed to transfer from Abeir.... the reverse may also be true.



I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.

But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  04:36:49  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The WHOLE thing was part of that terrible story-telling I mentioned before. They had an idea and smashed it's metaphorical square peg into Toril's similarly metaphorical round hole. Huge mess with 0 pay-off in the end.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  14:16:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.

But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.




No, I'm saying the saurials and Sarrukh maybe came from "Sauroid World" (let's call it that for now) WAAYYYY back 37'ish millennia back (or more). A few Millenia later, the world was twinned. Most of the saurials and maybe the sarrukh went to Abeir. Fast Forward to the 1300's DR, and Moander brings over a new small load of Saurials from said same "Sauroid World". The "lacerials" of Malatra were probably also either imports from a later connection to "Sauroid World" (i.e. a second migration before Moanders) or just some that never transferred to Abeir. The only reason I say all this is to put Saurials on Abeir, since with all the descriptions, it would seem they'd fit the theme.... and it lets us also bring BACK more saurials FROM Abeir as a result of the 2nd sundering if we want to.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31303 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  14:34:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.

But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.




No, I'm saying the saurials and Sarrukh maybe came from "Sauroid World" (let's call it that for now) WAAYYYY back 37'ish millennia back (or more). A few Millenia later, the world was twinned. Most of the saurials and maybe the sarrukh went to Abeir. Fast Forward to the 1300's DR, and Moander brings over a new small load of Saurials from said same "Sauroid World". The "lacerials" of Malatra were probably also either imports from a later connection to "Sauroid World" (i.e. a second migration before Moanders) or just some that never transferred to Abeir. The only reason I say all this is to put Saurials on Abeir, since with all the descriptions, it would seem they'd fit the theme.... and it lets us also bring BACK more saurials FROM Abeir as a result of the 2nd sundering if we want to.



Ah, so two sets of saurials, one on Saurialworld, one on Abeir. Gotcha -- I wasn't catching that you were speaking of two different sets.

I don't see any reason why that couldn't work, though I still feel that it's simpler to just stick with the one Saurialworld.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4014 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  16:05:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have races evolve on multiple worlds at different times is how im handling the same races being on different worlds.

That way i dont have to deal with other worlds mythology hardly at all. If dwarves on krynn sprang out of a gem then fine, on toril the dwarves were created by moradin. Dragons on greyhawk may have been created by some gods but on toril they evolved rapidly after the tearfall.

Makes things easier for me and it doesnt have to exclude cross pollination from other worlds either. Orcs from faerie and some other world (grey orcs) both arrive on toril separately.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  17:24:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Have races evolve on multiple worlds at different times is how im handling the same races being on different worlds.

That way i dont have to deal with other worlds mythology hardly at all. If dwarves on krynn sprang out of a gem then fine, on toril the dwarves were created by moradin. Dragons on greyhawk may have been created by some gods but on toril they evolved rapidly after the tearfall.

Makes things easier for me and it doesnt have to exclude cross pollination from other worlds either. Orcs from faerie and some other world (grey orcs) both arrive on toril separately.



It lets you avoid mythology, but then gives you the issue of having all these worlds populated by a host of plants, intelligent races, and various animals, that all somehow managed to evolve into identical forms. Sure, concurrent evolution is a thing, but entire worlds with identical critters? To me, that's just way too problematic an idea.

Since you hate all matters divine, anyway, why let mythology push you into an even more ridiculous direction? Go with one common origin for everything and say all mythology is just local legends.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jan 2018 17:25:34
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  18:22:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah. I like markustays idea that the universe was once whole but then it got destroyed. These crystal spheres are just mini attempts at recreating the perfect original.

So life evolves in similar directioms on all the planets because its planned to do that. Its just that the original plan got broken and the new smaller versions are corrupted slightly. Its a bit hitchikers guide to the galaxy but it works for me.

Plus in a multiverse with magic and spelljammers and infinite planes, why cant you have planets which are operating to a program of sorts.

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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  18:44:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And you can leave-out the mythology if you want. According to Quantum physics (one theory, anyway), universes get created when planes 'bump' into each other. That tiny 'spark' (compared to an infinite plane) that occurs as they pass each other is the basis for the Big Bang.

Thus, if we picture the original Prime Material as one of these mega-planes (the 3rd dimension), and it rubbed against another (The Far Realms? Whatever universe the Obyriths come from?), that collision causes the D&Dverse to be formed out of it.

So if you hate gods (and we all know someone who does LOL), you can just leave them out, and say those beings that call themselves gods are just uber-powerful, nigh-immortal races that are truly ancient, and have just been taking credit for everything.

Also, it should be nearly impossible to find members of the original, pre-Sundering Creatori. Unless they're in suspended animation most of the time (or liches, like the sarrukh), they should all be gone, through attrition. And at the same time, we DO find members of these races, EVERYWHERE - like humanity that has become a thousand thousand different ethnicities throughout the cosmos, and in some cases, have diverged so completely down side-paths of evolution you can't even tell they were once human (like the Gith).

In the Citybooks series from Flying Buffalo (under their 'Catalyst' banner), they had one very interesting NPC who was a 'First man'. He IS one of those surviving originals, like an Immortal from the highlander series (except he was not looking to take any heads LOL). I believe DC comics has a similar character (didn't he bring back Robin?) Its fun to think about - that each world has one of these dudes (or ladies), operating in the background, and they get kind of annoyed if another shows up on what they consider their world. It harkens back to the Chronicles of Amber series, which Ed has said he was greatly inspired by. So maybe the Terraseer is even more than what we thought he was - he is one of those originals that has survived through the ages, taking different forms, and 'guiding' cultures for his own, obscure agenda. Or like that guy Enik from the old Land of the Lost TV series - he had to live amongst his won, primitive kind, even though he himself was a highly advance, ancient being (the others - the sleestack - were like lizardmen/sauroids). There are versions of the 'ancient immortal man' in literature we can use as reference as well - its one of the few, NOT over-used tropes. Heck, the whole Well of Souls series of novels was based around the concept ("The Wandering Jew"). Except here we can extend it to include members of all four Creator-Races.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 18:45:36
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  19:06:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larry Niven's Known Space setting uses an interesting twist on all that: He has it where humans - as we know them today - aren't really a race at all. We are a 'pupal stage' for another race, that got abandoned on Earth and never evolved properly (we were missing certain 'ingredients' to start the metamorphosis process). The race were the Pak, and in some of his novels he touches upon it (in the Ringworld books - his most famous works - a human manages the evolution after all).

So the idea here, and the way we can re-spin it for FR/D&D - is that those 'First races' were all destroyed in the Great cataclysm, and the scant few survivors are working toward recreating them, by steering cultures and evolution down certain paths. Modern-day humans, Yuan-ti, Arakockra, even elves... are all just 'raw clay' to be molded back into the original design. At least, that's what most of the survivors would think (assume most of them have gone mad). We can even tie all the craziness with the Gith and illithids into this (I have an inkling of an idea for connecting illithids to the batrachi... batrachi don't have a 'current' offshoot of any prominence, and the illithid background is just vague enough for us to fiddle-around there).

EDIT:
And using this, I would respin The sojourner as yet another, except he would have come from the original human race (which doesn't have to look like us - the novels even made mention of the fact that he looked a little bit like a Gith). In fact, - without trying to give away too much - the whole premise of the story was that Toril was 'too bright' - that he was born there before all the current races, 'during a time of darkness'. Could he have been one of the last few Creatori born, before everything changed? He was literally born before the Crystal Spheres had been fully formed/completed? At the very least, he should have been from the defunct world of Abeir-Toril... which indicates that that pre-Sundered world was not nearly as well-lit (so, perhaps, before Selūne creates the first sun, and starts the fight with Shar?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 19:15:11
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  19:33:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Larry Niven's Known Space setting uses an interesting twist on all that: He has it where humans - as we know them today - aren't really a race at all. We are a 'pupal stage' for another race, that got abandoned on Earth and never evolved properly (we were missing certain 'ingredients' to start the metamorphosis process). The race were the Pak, and in some of his novels he touches upon it (in the Ringworld books - his most famous works - a human manages the evolution after all).

So the idea here, and the way we can re-spin it for FR/D&D - is that those 'First races' were all destroyed in the Great cataclysm, and the scant few survivors are working toward recreating them, by steering cultures and evolution down certain paths. Modern-day humans, Yuan-ti, Arakockra, even elves... are all just 'raw clay' to be molded back into the original design. At least, that's what most of the survivors would think (assume most of them have gone mad). We can even tie all the craziness with the Gith and illithids into this (I have an inkling of an idea for connecting illithids to the batrachi... batrachi don't have a 'current' offshoot of any prominence, and the illithid background is just vague enough for us to fiddle-around there).

EDIT:
And using this, I would respin The sojourner as yet another, except he would have come from the original human race (which doesn't have to look like us - the novels even made mention of the fact that he looked a little bit like a Gith). In fact, - without trying to give away too much - the whole premise of the story was that Toril was 'too bright' - that he was born there before all the current races, 'during a time of darkness'. Could he have been one of the last few Creatori born, before everything changed? He was literally born before the Crystal Spheres had been fully formed/completed? At the very least, he should have been from the defunct world of Abeir-Toril... which indicates that that pre-Sundered world was not nearly as well-lit (so, perhaps, before Selūne creates the first sun, and starts the fight with Shar?)



Vhostym the Sojourner was a githvyrik, another gith race.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  19:39:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Nah. I like markustays idea that the universe was once whole but then it got destroyed. These crystal spheres are just mini attempts at recreating the perfect original.

So life evolves in similar directioms on all the planets because its planned to do that. Its just that the original plan got broken and the new smaller versions are corrupted slightly. Its a bit hitchikers guide to the galaxy but it works for me.

Plus in a multiverse with magic and spelljammers and infinite planes, why cant you have planets which are operating to a program of sorts.



Who wrote the program and created the plan, if not someone divine?

And you can still go panspermia with Markus's Prime World -- everything developed there, first, and then migrated to the other worlds. So you've still got his one world, you've still got all identical lifeforms, you've got no divine intervention, and no ridiculous "everything everywhere evolved exactly the same!"

(Even with a single program, different hardware is going to introduce different parameters and thus different end results -- so unless the program's creator had everything hardcoded to be identical regardless of environs, then there would be minor differences even with single species in identical but separate environs)

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jan 2018 19:43:07
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  20:01:34  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy a humanoid race made a computer that made the earth which was just a biological computer. Great idea.


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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  21:20:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought it was the Dolphins? (So Long, and thanks for all the fish)

So what you are saying, Wooly, is that the Githvyrik ARE the human creator race? Good call!
That certainly fits the model I built using Larry Niven's Pak species. The Gith didn't diverge from us, we diverged from them. I like it.

I never discounted 'Panspermia' - I just spun it differently. I don't really like the whole 'spread outward' thing because it assumes there was something that came before (a world-hoping culture made of many different races... The Federation? ). Although i do take the 'that which came before' trope and use it, Its more like, "they didn't spread outward, the physical world they were on exploded, and they survived on pieces of it". So, less like a panspermia (since there is 'less' prime Material' than there would have been in the Before Time), then a 'survivor state' type of situation. They didn't move - most of the rest of the plane simply disappeared.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 21:21:24
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