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 Throw out ideas -WHAT were the neighbors on Abeir
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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  03:15:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Alright, so we have certain "knowns" now, and we have been discussing what we'd like to see in Abeir and coming back. We also "know" that there were certain places in Abeir that were "roughly" corresponding to places in Toril and have a "rough" idea of what those places were like. So, let's take this a next step for a moment and just discuss what might be fun or useful to have had as neighbors in areas that transferred. To start this off, I'm going to list the places that we KNOW transferred to Abeir. Then, I'll list the places that we highly suspect transferred to Abeir and which are canon as suddenly "returning" (and if I forget some, feel free to remind me). Then I'll list the places that I've been discussing as homebrew that the people on Toril "got wrong" as to what exactly happened (or that we had no clue for one way or another). Then, once we have the known places, maybe play a little "who was nearby and how did they interact" for fun.

Canon that the land or the people went to Abeir and came back
Unther
Mulhorand
Halruaa


Canon that it went "somewhere" and came back

Maztica
Nimbral
Lantan
Evermeet -special as its documented that it went to the feywild, but some empty land came to Toril, which presumably may have come from Abeir.

Possible that it went to Abeir and people had it wrong

Large portions of Western Chessenta including Cimbar, Soorenar, and Akanax.

Possibly some of Threskel (Mourktar and possibly portions of Mordulkin)

The eastern Shaar area that became "the Underchasm"

Portions of Chondath and the Chondalwood.

A portion of the Wizard's Reach centering around Laothkund

Portions of Luiren (and they didn't come back, much like how Akanul stayed). This may have been discontinguous, causing "islands" to form and causing also a large portion of the toadsquat mountains to disappear.

Some of Castle Al'hanar (including the death knights that fought the Everlasting Wyrm)

The vast majority of Var the Golden, leaving portions of major cities to drop into the ocean.

The eastern portion of Durpar including the Amjer Forest which is filled with elves.


No indication given by WotC whether portions of it moved or not, but I'm considering having it "go and come back"

A large portion of Eastern Ulgarth

The "Utter East" kingdoms

The Isle of Sahu and the "ruined kingdoms" of Nog and kadar down in Zakhara.

Anchorome

At least the northernmost half of what most of us accept to be Katashaka

The islands on the northeastern most portion of Osse (what we've all been calling Osse anyway), and possibly a large portion of said continent.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Dec 2017 03:17:00

sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  04:23:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so having thrown out these so far, I'm thinking lets see what we can do with this, taking a few of the above and maybe listing the KNOWN and the HOMEBREW for fun

Halruaa - Halruaa transferred, but it did not have its mountainous border to protect it. I know Zero has been thinking on this, so I'll wait to see their interpretation of neighbors to place.

Western Chessentan Cities (Cimbar/Soorenar/Akanax) & nearby portions of Chondath - These cities possibly fell on the northernmost portion of the area known as Shyr that was controlled by Karshimis (we know the portion that became Akanul on Toril WAS part of Shyr. Supposition: Karshimis and his folks seized the Chondath areas (like Hlath) and the ruined city of Akanax, but the cities of Cimbar and Soorenar managed to hold their own. They were on a lake with runoff from some mountains that separated them from Laothkund. These mountains were rugged and relatively uninhabited. Thus, Cimbar and Soorenar were protected on their back sides and their immediate neighbors were

the region of the wizard's reach including Laothkund -This may very well have been a large chunk of Abeir that was sent to the plane of shadow by the actions of the mages of Halruaa. This may be why nothing transferred to Toril and left an empty space in this area. It may have been that portions of these regions stayed behind and thus collapsed leaving the ruins that people found (which may not have been very large).--- Suppositions: It would be interesting if this city while on Abeir was protected by being a piece of land surrounded by mountains, and the portion of the alamber sea that came with it forms a lake that collects run off from these mountains. Maybe this was one of the northernmost inhabitations of Shyr's genasi, and thus these genasi are now stuck in the plane of shadow since they didn't go to Toril.

The eastern Shaar area that became "the Underchasm" - This may very well have been a large chunk of Abeir that was sent to the plane of shadow by the actions of the mages of Halruaa. This may be why nothing transferred to Toril and left an empty space in this area. It may have been that portions of these regions stayed behind and thus collapsed. Ironically, this might ALSO have been a large portion of Shyr, and thus Karshimis may have found himself with a much reduced in size kingdom and a lot of his people stuck in the plane of shadow. So, I'm picturing its northern border being Shyr, but to its east is Tymanchebar. Thus, I'm seeing Shyr stretching from what is in the realms Chondath and possibly the Vilhon to Mulhorand. I'm only putting the tharch of Peleveran in the northern portion of this, and the great rift will have transferred on its southern border with a further section of the shaar beneath that as well. So, what is on the western borders of this while on abeir? I'm thinking instead of empty Savannah, maybe this was a heavily forested jungle filled with sauroids or lizard folk.


Threskel/Untheric cities (portions of Mordulkin and the cities of Mourktar and Messemprar) - Since we know much of transferred unther was under Karshimis' control, I'd say this is smack in the confines of Shyr. (going with the idea that the Mourktar presented in the 4e novels was a rebuilt city using the old name)

Mulhorand - we know the people transferred, the land stayed, but none of the people of Abeir came over. These people fell under Karshimis, so possibly this was a portion of Shyr as well... and its citizens were displaced into the plane of shadow (or they stayed and enslaved the Mulhorandi)

Luiren - this could have also been a portion of Abeir that got sent to the plane of shadow, and thus why nothing came over from Abeir (or maybe it was a portion of the sea of Abeir). This may have been a portion of Tymanchebar prior to the spellplague, and thus these halflings become a portion of Tymanchebar. When things transfer back though, this stays in Abeir.

Lantan & Nimbral - transferred, only water came from Abeir. It may actually be fun to have sent Nimbral to the feywild as the island may have been created by the elven sundering or something. Having Lantan having to deal with whatever culture is nearby on Abeir could be interesting. Maybe the Lantanese build a major city somewhere on the mainland that essentially is now left behind.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  06:28:45  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always wished for detailed write-up of Lantan/Nimbral. Think there is something MAJOR there we are missing still.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  13:53:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Nimbral with its pegasi and elf population just feels very fey. While this one would be very easy to send to Abeir and have come back with little to no interaction with the world (maybe.... although the question is are the continents in the same formation, since they didn't have the ELVEN sundering.... so if it transferred would it have transferred in the middle of some continent). Since we have Evermeet going to the Feywild, might Nimbral have done similar.... maybe even the two islands are somehow linked in a way we don't YET know. In this way we could have Nimbral picking up even more of a "magical/mystical" nature from its time in the feywild. I think it could be interesting if it came back with even MORE of a flying horse motif. I hate to say it, but having a "my little pony" kind of look with say flying asperii, pegasi, unicorns, and pegacorns that are yellow/blue/pink/purple colored.... and a lot more elves (and have it be primarily the star elves with some moon elves AND some Avariels AND some elves who change into some non-feral mammalian race like say raccoons, rabbits, chipmunks, and squirrels).... it would work for me (yeah, I know I just made some of you puke). Having some of these elves joining the Flying Hunt would of course be natural. Oh, and if we go with the concept that Nimbral WAS in the feywild and it returns to Toril, but large parts of Samarach went to Abeir... while other portions of Samarach stayed on Toril and became inhabited by Mazticans or Chultans or snake people.... and the portions of Samarach that return are infested with "baddies" from Abeir.... it could be interesting if the Nimbrese see it as a necessity that they "free" Samarach from the control of these forces. Maybe even they have some special trees akin to a tree of souls to plant (but a lot less powerful or important), for instance maybe some of the great suth trees where if they plant a seed they can maybe create a community that's walled off, and then some Zalantar trees that grow broad enough to live in.

BTW, I also love Leira as many know, but I'd like to see her more "whimsical" and less "evil", and I picture that this is WHY the Nimbrese worshipped her, because they saw a different side of her. I'd like to see her come back in this way. Sure, she is "evil" because she's mostly self-centered, but its kind of like the evil of the pretty girl in school who only partly that some of the stuff she says is offensive (because she believes her own lies about how "magnanimous" and "wonderful" she is). In some ways, I picture her similar to Sune, but less worried about love, and more worried about having a good time. In fact, in many ways, I think the Leira and Lliira were linked and at some point may have split (possibly because both Mystra and Sune demanded her service, so each ended up with their own aspect... it could be interesting if there was an original deity known as say "Llii'Leira (pronounce LEE-Lair-ah)).

Oh, and since you espouse interest in Nimbral, IF you have never read Ed's 8 part introduction to the realm that was web only, go read them. Links below.

The Realm of Nimbral, Part One
Legends, Mysteries, and History
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20040811a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Two
What the Eye First Sees
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20040825a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Three
What the Eye Next Sees
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20040908a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Four
Nimbrian Life, Coin, and Livings
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20040922a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Five
Laws and Heralds
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041013a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Six
Of Heralds and of the Nimbrese Character
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041027a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Seven
The Knightse Character
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041110a

The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight
The Nimbral Lords
By Ed Greenwood
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041124a

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  14:08:12  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tend to think the two worlds and dimensions colliding event would have been catastrophic in most cases of transference. This should have resulted in collapsed infrastructure that would take a decade to refit at the least. With dragonic tyrants perched ready to take what ever they lay eyes on, I think most faerunian lords would have done best to bend the knee immediately.

For example a large swath of Luiren got swallowed by the Underchasm. If it was the world colliding transference that created the Underchasm the equivalent of this area on Abeir was probably a vast empty rift, deeper still than the Underchasm is on Toril now (I believe the best guesstimation made on these boards was that it stretched for 9 miles at the deepest trenches and was about 3 to 4 hundred miles wide at most parts). The huge mantle chunks ripped from Toril would have ended up crushed into the side of Abeirs' rift cliff facing along Abeirs celestial motion (which I assume is counter to Torils celestial motion), and would have been pulverized into chunks crisscrossed with underdark tunnels forming a massive debris hill an the bottom of the rifts cliff-face.

No conditions to hope for a reasonable chance of survival for those unfortunate to witness this catastrophe, and any survivors would have been easy picking for the Shyr empire perched over the cliffsides to take what it sees struggling in the rifts below. Best the survivors try to seek asylum in with the Shyr.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  14:39:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, and I've been thinking on the idea more of the neighbors to the west of the eastern shaar and north of Halruaa that may have been in Abeir. While I think I'd definitely want some kind of Sauroid/Dinosaur culture there.... I'd also want to mix it up, and have it not be total jungle either. So, mix in a Sauroid people, dinosaurs, giant mammoths, sabretooth tigers/panthers/leopards, as well as a dragonlord with dragonborn and primitive human servants, and then having a magical race of Eldritch Giants who keep dinosaurs and mammoths and sabretooth tigers/panthers/leopards as pets (because nothing is large enough for them to use as mounts). These giants may very well be a threat to the dragonlord and it is they that keep the dragonlords hemmed in. Maybe these giants are even more naturally magical than the Eldritch Giants of Toril and are similar to sorcerers where they can pick what spells that they "know" (thus some might know fly, others mirror image, others fireshield, etc... and give each a choice of like 6 different spells of 4th level and less to know <2 1st, 2 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th>.. plus a cantrip such as eldritch blast that all share). Then while all have this natural sorcery, maybe some choose to be warlocks in service to the titans OR are natural sorcerers. When one of them die they try to protect the body, but scavengers want the bones because they can be used to craft magical items. However, some of these eldritch giants should be druidic, and one of the things these druids can do is cause plants to grow fast and BIG... and its only through them that these giants can actually farm to survive (yep, they eat a lot of giant beans... primarily purple ones). Noting again, Eldritch giants can live more than 3000 years, so if we say each "generation" of them is about every 900 years, then these giants have only had say 35 generations since the creation of Abeir (still significant, but enough that they may have documented a lot of the truth about Abeir and its history).

Of these three cultures, I'd picture the layout to be dragonlord with dragonborn on the far western section compared to the shaar, (so like where the wyrmbones, Misty Vale, Dun Hills, and coastline were in 3.5e)

I'd picture the sauroids being in the jungle (which is a further extension of the Chondalwood) next comprising the main portion of the "Western Shaar", and right on the western border of Peleveran and the portion of the Great Rift that transferred... as well as a vast section that's also cleared. In fact, when Chondath stabilizes, I'd like a sauroid population in there, and maybe the Chondalwood to extend even further south into the shaar via connecting that wooded section that splits the Firesteap Mountains to the Chondalwood and then extending said forest/jungle even further south to connect to the Shaarwood. This would effectively cut off those paths from the Vilhon through the village of Torsch, but I think it would be worth it.

The giants I'd see holding a "spottily wooded"/ area comprising what would be between the Rathgaunt Hills, western forest of Amtar, gnollswatch mountains and the Northwall of Halruaa. Entry into their lands would be warded magically and dangerous, and thus the only time these giants are typically seen is if they go on a hunt into the nearby jungles. I'd actually like to bring a community of these giants back to Toril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  14:55:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I tend to think the two worlds and dimensions colliding event would have been catastrophic in most cases of transference. This should have resulted in collapsed infrastructure that would take a decade to refit at the least. With dragonic tyrants perched ready to take what ever they lay eyes on, I think most faerunian lords would have done best to bend the knee immediately.

For example a large swath of Luiren got swallowed by the Underchasm. If it was the world colliding transference that created the Underchasm the equivalent of this area on Abeir was probably a vast empty rift, deeper still than the Underchasm is on Toril now (I believe the best guesstimation made on these boards was that it stretched for 9 miles at the deepest trenches and was about 3 to 4 hundred miles wide at most parts). The huge mantle chunks ripped from Toril would have ended up crushed into the side of Abeirs' rift cliff facing along Abeirs celestial motion (which I assume is counter to Torils celestial motion), and would have been pulverized into chunks crisscrossed with underdark tunnels forming a massive debris hill an the bottom of the rifts cliff-face.

No conditions to hope for a reasonable chance of survival for those unfortunate to witness this catastrophe, and any survivors would have been easy picking for the Shyr empire perched over the cliffsides to take what it sees struggling in the rifts below. Best the survivors try to seek asylum in with the Shyr.



I have to ask... why is that fun? Sending over a bunch of Faerunian cultures to just get subjugated... why? My point would be to have this transferal spark a change in Abeir. Make it less tyrannical. We already have this thing in canon where Halruaa used a ritual to transfer themselves "safely" which we might be able to extend to other areas moved (sure there's some destruction, but maybe not as bad as what happened on Toril... maybe Toril's suffering "paid" for the transferred lands' security in some kind of cosmic sense).

On the idea that there was a HUMONGOUS rift on Abeir where the underchasm was... I'd be fine with that too rather than that area going to the plane of shadow. However, IF that were the case, I'd say that the people of Akanul would recognize this quality and tell everyone "oh yeah, that's what we had over on Abeir was this giant rift, that must have transferred too". If instead this was a large portion of the nation of Shyr, and instead it transferred to the plane of shadow, we have the opportunity to really weaken Shyr on Abeir (i.e. it lost Akanul, it loses the eastern Shaar where the Underchasm is, it maybe loses its people in Mulhorand).

So, essentially, the Halruuans, much like the elves... perform some powerful ritual of epic magic that they don't fully understand the implications of.... and this magic maybe even resembles the elven sundering.... and the results are that they transfer safely, as do other lands. Maybe they draw some magic FROM they feywild to do this (and thus the whole Evermeet and Nimbral going to the feywild). The implications to Toril though and the populations of Abeir that were transferred to the plane of shadow.... horrendous.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  14:55:40  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Western Shaar regions latitude forces its climate to be too dry to host jungle. Perhaps a special abeiran adaptation enables a dry jungle to sustain itself?

Do you want to place the flavor of Wemic, Kreen and Loxodont interior savannahs on Abeir too? Those races I could see survive because of their rugged lifestyles, perhaps even being able to tap into the plentiful primordial power sources of their environment. Perhaps nature druids might be more apt to encounter and access those powers, forming circles of elementally boosted beast tamers who traveled the spirit realms in search for home.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  16:00:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I think the Western Shaar regions latitude forces its climate to be too dry to host jungle. Perhaps a special abeiran adaptation enables a dry jungle to sustain itself?

Do you want to place the flavor of Wemic, Kreen and Loxodont interior savannahs on Abeir too? Those races I could see survive because of their rugged lifestyles, perhaps even being able to tap into the plentiful primordial power sources of their environment. Perhaps nature druids might be more apt to encounter and access those powers, forming circles of elementally boosted beast tamers who traveled the spirit realms in search for home.



Actually, the eastern Shaar was a "heavily forested region" until recently (1018 DR) according to the history of Peleveran. It specifically says in Powers and Pantheons "What was once a tree-cloaked, fertile land is now a barren, open, stony country". It started when a horde of hellspawn beset the land at behest of Tuelhalva Drakewings (which who knows what damage that did). It was then the actions of a flight of dragons that flew down and basically set Peleveran on fire that turned it into what it is now.

Given that it has jungles just to its north and south, plus in line with it in Chult and Maztica, it should be able to be forested still. I just wonder if it literally wasn't the dragon-scorched/dracolich-scorched earth that killed the area to the point that even centuries later it was only slowly growing back grass on the topmost layers of soil. In fact, the land being "dracolich-scorched" may have even filled it with some kind of death energy. Of course, since these dragons were also fighting some horde of hellspawn, no telling how far this expanded and what kind of hellfire the baatezu/devils also brought into play as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  17:36:58  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still, the precipitation in the region would have been fairly low, creating forests of cacti, thorny woods and gnarled trees adapted to low watertables that would have been set on fire. I liken the idea to the situation similar to Australia where yearly large fires keep the ecosystem stable on desert like conditions ever since the dragon hellfire scorchings.

Oh and I am totally going to steal that idea of having the land absorbed and was sometimes infused with infernal death energies during the scourge of Tuelhalva Drakewings. Might need that for a mythical location, such as the Pit in Peleveran where Tuelhalva found Gargauth, or the portal from which the hellspawned horde invaded.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  18:28:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the days of the Crown Wars, the entirety of 'The south' was covered by forest and jungle (forest at the higher altitudes). Thats where the Ilythiir lived.

Then again, just about everywhere was covered by forest just prior to those wars - makes you wonder how huge dragons were able to hunt 'back in the day' (Reds probably used their flames to purposely burn-out sections of forest so there would be clearings).

As for the thread topic, I'm not big on sending any more to Abeir than we have to (whats already recorded as doing so 'in canon'). I have no problem with 'adds', however (new stuff suddenly appearing, like ruins, races, settlements, an island or twelve, etc, etc).

Nimbral and Lanatan I just can't care about. I feel like no matter whats done to them, no-one is ever going to use them. They're just not necessary. Thus, they become a mental exercise and nothing more. They do make ideal spots to drop something in that a DM might want to steal from another setting (like turning Nimbral into Melniboné, or Lantan into Mount Nevermid - that sort of thing).

What have you got against Ulgarth?
"Hello, whats your name? Ulgarth? Thats a stupid name! I don't like the look of your place! My name is Sleyvas, and I have a death-sentence in twelve settings!"

EDIT:
Also not sure about the purpose of the thread - do you want more ideas about what may have left Toril and came back, or can we also posit stuff about what we think Abeir may have been like? (the 'neighbors' part)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 17:14:19
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  21:27:53  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A minor correction: the current Shaar (were the Underchasm was) is a newly built land. It was built by Grumbar in a novel (the Herald, IIRC). Nothing from Abeir came to that place after the Second Sundering (so, that Torilian land is totally lost to Abeir, in canon). You may be right with your Shadowfell stuff, though, as Shar plans in that novel was to use a Shadowfell portal in the bottom of the Underchasm to "eat" Toril.

As for Tymanchebar, we do know that canonically it was on Skelkor, a nation in Laerakond (4e FRCG, p.202, IIRC). So, I don't think that Luiren was exchanged with parts of it, as all of Laerakond came to Toril, and we don't saw any Luiren halfling in Skelkor (as for why Tymanther ended up were Unther was, the land was "ripped off" from the continent it was previously, and was sent like a boulder to Unther... someone in the 4e development team didn't loved Unther, it seems ) So, whatever place Luiren (or Unther, most likely) was in Abeir it was not Tymanchebar.

I also like the idea that parts of Toril were destroyed, not exchanged. I mean, it would be totally boring if only Abeir lost land and Toril was left unscathed because "status quo".

To the lands that transferred to Abeir add parts of Neverwinter Wood. We know that at least there is canon confirmation that half of Conyberry was transferred to Abeir, as per the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. We even have a few Abeirans living with the Conyberrans (?) before the barbarians destroyed Conyberry. That's why in my Neverwinter campaign there are a significant population of dragonborn in Neverwinter. The parents and grandparents of them were refugees from Conyberry.

There is also canon proof (in the Hengeyokai article, Dragon 404) that there were transfer of lands in Kara-Tur (we don't know which lands, though).

As for Halruaa, I like to think there were no neighbors there. They either were destroyed by the arrival of Spellplagued Halruaa, or sent to the Shadowfell by the wizards during the transfer. In my version of Halruaa, the only survivors were a large clan of dragonborn (slaves of a dragon lord that had their lair there), that the Halruaans accepted into their lands out of guilt, as many of the members of the clan, and other clans as well, got transferred to the Shadowfell thanks to the Halruaan shenanigans to save themeselves.

If you want neighbors, I like the idea of dragon lords who opposed Karshimis. So, those lands way to the south of the Unther-equivalent of Abeir were not part of the Realm of Shyr.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I have to ask... why is that fun? Sending over a bunch of Faerunian cultures to just get subjugated... why?


Its not fun, its realistic. In an unknown world 10 times more hostile than Toril will ever be, where there are no gods (and beings of godly power are not benevolent), where the morals are warped to the point that even an inherent good race like the metallic dragons can be evil, and where magic is less useful than in Toril (canonically, there is no Weave there—according to both Ed and Erin—so, Weave dependent magic practices there are useless), and with a level of technology way superior to that of Toril, the highly magic-dependent Torilians would be wiped out, realistically speaking. Unless they bent to their knees and sell themselves to the Abeirans (that is what the Mulhorandi did, in canon at least).

Those Torilians that didn't bent, like the Halruaans, must have had to fight for their freedom. Heck, according to Ed the formerly pacific Halruaans are now highly militant and living in well-defended fortresses. They may have thrived in Abeir, but their culture was fundamentally changed by that world. They aren't the Halruaans of 3rd edition. And is hinted that something similar happened to the Lantanase.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Dec 2017 21:33:11
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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  21:55:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL, actually, I like Ulgarth and the reason why I'd send it over it to have it "strengthen" itself over the past century with people fleeing TO there. Then the people that come in have to adapt to the lifestyle of Ulgarth. So, all those Eastern Durpari and Var the Golden folk, maybe they have to flee to Ulgarth, and their kids grow up stronger. Then turn Var and most of eastern Durpar into something that "moves in and takes over their cities"..... so if there's anyone I'm not real fond of, its Durpar and Var. I mean, Ulgarth can keep some of those folk as traders, but the majority... meh...

Oh, and the general concept I was trying to go for was more "what might Abeir have been like". We don't have to design the whole world, BUT if portions of Toril have come back... they had neighbors. Who were those neighbors and how would that have affected them. For instance, with the concept of the sauroids being on the western side of Peleveran, we can introduce more dinosaurs, mammoths, sabretooth things, etc... to the Shaar. I'd also like to introduce the eldritch giants SOMEHOW that I haven't quite placed yet, but they seem to fit Abeir in my head, and maybe some came back and are allied with the Pelevari. Maybe they were given a small section of the country to farm in return for an alliance against Shyr (and maybe they didn't like Karshimis either).

On the dragonlord and dragonborn on the far western portion of the Shaar... I have to look back at what Zeromaru was doing with Halruaa, but I believe that that was one of the things that they were doing, so I wanted to try to make everyone's concepts work together.

BTW, I get the "what's the goal" thing... I fully admit to kind of being non-specific here just in the hopes that we all start throwing out interesting ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  17:50:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, I never found Ulgarth 'wanting'. In fact, I couldn't understand why it wasn't more 'proactive' (warlike), especially considering it's past. I did have it eat almost half of thomar (from DoD), to 'save it' from the ever-growing Durpari (its canonical, if you look at all the material on Durpar -they were mostly a 'southern coast' nation of the Golden Waters, that kept wrapping-around that sea until they encroached on the failing Thommar, thus the trade-settlement of Bralizzar was actually IN Thomar at one point... the FRIA maps got the placement wrong). I have to assume the Parsanic league directly to their south has something going on they can't counter (the elemental magic discussed elsewhere). But after the near-destruction of Durpar in 4e (if you look at my 4e map - which shows more detail than the cann one - you can see how nearly all their major cities became land-locked!), you would think they would have swooped-in to take over the rest of what was once Thommar - the whole eastern half of the nrthern coast of the Golden Waters (which they've only held for the last few centuries). If we use what I did in my homebrew lore - take the princess from the Blood & Magic video game (I forget her name ATM) and say she was the 'last princess of Thommar' (which was little more than her former capital and few surrounding villages at that point) and marry her to Drasna Bluemantle (Ulgarth's king), they then have a legitimate claim on those lands. I'd also have him move further north, into the southern Hordlands (a few forts with support-villages, nothing more), just to make sure no attacks come from that direction (post-Tuigan war logic), and also to establish trade with Shou-controlled Semphar (YES, I know 'here there be dragons', but I can rectify that as well). They'd also want to know to reopen the Old Trade Road[ that ran up through a mountain pass into Guge - a 'wild and wooly' (Giant hamsters?!) region for centuries, shou-Lung would probably be making in-roads into reestablishing control over what was an Imaskar province back in the day. You can check my Hordelands map here at the 'Keep to see that route (which IS canon, BTW... it just hasn't been used in a VERY long time).

Durpar is hurting, BAD. I have it in my homebrew that they moved the capital back to Heldapan, because they absolutely would have had to (with all thats going on to the east and south). Also, with the overland trade through Mulhorand now non-existent, and the new route established by ship through the new Shaaran sea and rivers (and Lake of Salt), their 'trade empire' means zilch these days. no longer do Zakharan merchants need to land at Durpari port, when they can get twice the money by traveling all the way to Mulhorand directly. In fact, this is probably why Durpar and Veldorn have 'secret dealings' (also 4e canon) - while it would be in the best interest of most of the Veldorn 'Lords' to allow the trade route to remain unmolested, certain factions in both 'nations' (using that term very lightly) would rather see that same route closed down (albeit for very different reasons).

The only part that gets really weird is the beholder city of Xiltor, which the new trade route passes right through. Those Zakharan sailors must have nerves of steel. On the other hand, one can assume the beholders of this region operate much like they do over in the Lake of Steam - you don't see them. At least not everywhere. The city is mostly slaves, and the beholders rule from behind the scenes. Thus, the Xiltor port along the river could look quite normal.

I am DYING to do an Abeir map, but I simply won't commit to something that expansive at this time - I am working on too many at once as it is. However, I am actually thinking in terms of a planet I HATE - the world of One Piece. Love the anime (silly as it is), but the setting is absolute drek. However, the very reason I hate it - its NOT believable - is the reason why it would work for us for Abeir - its looks too 'fake' (as if it was created whole-cloth by some overpower). My reasoning here is that i would then be able to quarter the planet into specific region that have little to do with each other. That may seem a bit heavy-handed, but it is the best way to get the most mileage out of Abeir (because then we can steal just about everything from everywhere LOL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  18:23:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ZeromaruX - You are just chock-full of helpful (4e canon) expertise!

I hadn't realized there s any canon in regards to Abeir and Kara-Tur - I can have a field-day with that!

I also completely agree with you on your logical assessment of cultures arriving on Abeir.v What i do find fun to thin about is those same, subjugated cultures now reappearing on Toril, and the 'masters' suddenly finding themselves friendless and in a strange place. Retribution, anyone? I don't think the Imaskari are the only arses the returning Mulhorandi kicked.

I also agree that not every region should be a 'true swap'. Some places should have simply been annihilated, and others may have gone 'elsewhere', and also, realms (and peoples) from those same 'elsewheres' may have become trapped on Toril (thus, in 4e/5e, we can use whatever we ant from ANY setting, even non-D&D ones). The planes became realigned - that much is canon. I think a lot more 'geographic fluctuations' occurred throughout the multiverse than we've been led to believe (or it could just be that Faerûn was so busy with its own problems it didn't have the time or wherewithal to 'look beyond'). Personally, I tie the Spellplague to the Grand Conjunction in Ravenloft, and Krynn's cataclysm. It also coincided perfectly with the Greyhawk Wars, if I am not mistaken (the first few years, when the Spellplague was most active).

What sort of 'higher tech' have we seen in Abeir? I really want cannons on ships. I think FR is too 'high tech' to still be using catapults shipboard. Can we at least say that Smokepowder has become more widely available, even if Gunnes themselves have not caught on? Plenty of militaries used cannon extensively before they ever used smaller firearms within their armies. Thus, we could have a VERY similar situation we had right after the ToT (as written in the FRA book) - small arms are still a rarity and looked upon as 'clever toys', but not as serious weapons by most folk. Bows are still far more accurate and thus deadier (and QUIET). The last thing an adventurer wants is something that makes a horrendous noise while working their way through a dungeon. So we can see how FR history would differ from our own - hand-held firearms would be novelty item, nothing more. But larger ordinance - and most especially shipboard cannons - would definitely become polaur. Seafaring merchants and costers would want any advantage they could get against pirates with Mages onboard (mages are expensive, and singular, whereas you cantrain a bunch of 'normal folk' how to shoot cannons).

And I am NOT talking about Ao lifting his restrictions - I am talking about the Kara-Tur guilds becoming more prevalent in the West, and they have knowledge of how to make it, and HAVE been making it cheaply and in abundance for centuries (see my discussions elsewhere on why Smokepowder and Black Powder are the same exact thing - one simply has a dweomer attached to it to negate Ao's Edict).. In fact, now that The Weave has collapsed and there is (another) new one, the 'rules' have changed once again, which means the pysics may have also changed. Since the 'default' setting for most of the universe is that gunpwder WORKS, we may now be in 'default mode', and the Smokepwder Dweomer may no longer be necessary. I'd still keep the exact formula(s) a secret controlled by guilds (wlling to kill to keep their secrets). thatwould be another controlling factor in all this.

We just need some more pirate love, and FR has never been able to compete with other settings in this one genre because of the lack of cannon (except for the tightly controlled, alchemical-powered Thayan Bombards, and they are probably no longer in service, all things considered). Please, WotC, give us some cannon-love! We promise to act responsibly!

I mean, C'mon... we've had at least one aircraft carrier, and tanks with lasers...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 19:35:39
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  18:58:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

A minor correction: the current Shaar (were the Underchasm was) is a newly built land. It was built by Grumbar in a novel (the Herald, IIRC). Nothing from Abeir came to that place after the Second Sundering (so, that Torilian land is totally lost to Abeir, in canon). You may be right with your Shadowfell stuff, though, as Shar plans in that novel was to use a Shadowfell portal in the bottom of the Underchasm to "eat" Toril.

As for Tymanchebar, we do know that canonically it was on Skelkor, a nation in Laerakond (4e FRCG, p.202, IIRC). So, I don't think that Luiren was exchanged with parts of it, as all of Laerakond came to Toril, and we don't saw any Luiren halfling in Skelkor (as for why Tymanther ended up were Unther was, the land was "ripped off" from the continent it was previously, and was sent like a boulder to Unther... someone in the 4e development team didn't loved Unther, it seems ) So, whatever place Luiren (or Unther, most likely) was in Abeir it was not Tymanchebar.

I also like the idea that parts of Toril were destroyed, not exchanged. I mean, it would be totally boring if only Abeir lost land and Toril was left unscathed because "status quo".

To the lands that transferred to Abeir add parts of Neverwinter Wood. We know that at least there is canon confirmation that half of Conyberry was transferred to Abeir, as per the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. We even have a few Abeirans living with the Conyberrans (?) before the barbarians destroyed Conyberry. That's why in my Neverwinter campaign there are a significant population of dragonborn in Neverwinter. The parents and grandparents of them were refugees from Conyberry.

There is also canon proof (in the Hengeyokai article, Dragon 404) that there were transfer of lands in Kara-Tur (we don't know which lands, though).

As for Halruaa, I like to think there were no neighbors there. They either were destroyed by the arrival of Spellplagued Halruaa, or sent to the Shadowfell by the wizards during the transfer. In my version of Halruaa, the only survivors were a large clan of dragonborn (slaves of a dragon lord that had their lair there), that the Halruaans accepted into their lands out of guilt, as many of the members of the clan, and other clans as well, got transferred to the Shadowfell thanks to the Halruaan shenanigans to save themeselves.

If you want neighbors, I like the idea of dragon lords who opposed Karshimis. So, those lands way to the south of the Unther-equivalent of Abeir were not part of the Realm of Shyr.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I have to ask... why is that fun? Sending over a bunch of Faerunian cultures to just get subjugated... why?


Its not fun, its realistic. In an unknown world 10 times more hostile than Toril will ever be, where there are no gods (and beings of godly power are not benevolent), where the morals are warped to the point that even an inherent good race like the metallic dragons can be evil, and where magic is less useful than in Toril (canonically, there is no Weave there—according to both Ed and Erin—so, Weave dependent magic practices there are useless), and with a level of technology way superior to that of Toril, the highly magic-dependent Torilians would be wiped out, realistically speaking. Unless they bent to their knees and sell themselves to the Abeirans (that is what the Mulhorandi did, in canon at least).

Those Torilians that didn't bent, like the Halruaans, must have had to fight for their freedom. Heck, according to Ed the formerly pacific Halruaans are now highly militant and living in well-defended fortresses. They may have thrived in Abeir, but their culture was fundamentally changed by that world. They aren't the Halruaans of 3rd edition. And is hinted that something similar happened to the Lantanase.



Yes, I know that the way it was described in the book is that the land was "filled in" by Grumbar. Personally though, I've been working under the assumption that this simply "triggered" a return of that portion of the land from Abeir. I've also been personally working under an assumption that this land was "rejuvenated" by its time in Abeir and the aid of some gods/primordials (and I'm making it unclear on purpose) with power over earth/storms/rivers, etc... such that when it comes back this land is more arable.

Along these lines, since much of the great rift went over, I'd also like to have much of its old veins having grown more "filled" with metals of all sorts. Thus, giving the dwarves a bit of a resurgence of sorts for their time spent on Abeir (again, assuming that they went there and came back).

Finally, and this is just a recent thought so it may change, but I'm really finding myself enamored with the idea of an eldritch giant realm in the eastern shaar south of the great rift but still north of the landrise. I also think it might be interesting if these giants were to enslave... not dwarves... not humans... but other giants. Maybe they enslave the cyclopes and hill giants found within the Shaar. Maybe they enslave the ash giants of the black ash plains. I'd also like this community to not be outwardly evil (despite eldritch giants being listed as neutral evil), but rather they take on these slaves to work for them as servants tending their giant magical gardens. Maybe these eldritch giants hire themselves out to surrounding countries to come in and capture reckless giants who are raiding caravans and such. Maybe these eldritch giants made alliance with the dwarves of the Great Rift and the humans of Peleveran against the dragonlords who were hunting the giants. Oh, and just to throw out some oddness, maybe dinosaur dung is a prized commodity to these giants in growing their giant vegetables (which I'm not picture house sized beans, but growing say purple hulled green beans that are the length of your arm instead of your hand seems right).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  19:42:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may want to look at some of Paizo's Rise of the Runelords material - its quite good, but they used Cylcops' as their 'big bad' (that cyclops were much bigger and smarter at one point in primordial times, and enslaved much of the world).

Which is just one of MANY reasons I think the 'in the know' guys who left WotC and created/worked for Paizo had some of Ed's 'deep secrets' of The Realms, and ran with them in their own setting. You'll note there is a barely recognized/mentioned 'kingdom of giants' existing in the place where the Inner Sea now sits (it didn't back then), and all that is left of them is some ruins on a few of the Pirates Islands, and some cyclopskin. Only the Elves have any recollection of this lost kingdom (and elves - NOT Eldarin - existed in those most ancient times around the Inner sea, before the Eladrin Elves invaded from Faerie). I think the time of the 'Yuir Totems' coexisted with this forgotten 'Colossal Kingdom'.

And I use Biclops (Ettin/Cyclops crossbreeds) in MY realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 19:44:02
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  20:25:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

A minor correction: the current Shaar (were the Underchasm was) is a newly built land. It was built by Grumbar in a novel (the Herald, IIRC). Nothing from Abeir came to that place after the Second Sundering (so, that Torilian land is totally lost to Abeir, in canon). You may be right with your Shadowfell stuff, though, as Shar plans in that novel was to use a Shadowfell portal in the bottom of the Underchasm to "eat" Toril.

As for Tymanchebar, we do know that canonically it was on Skelkor, a nation in Laerakond (4e FRCG, p.202, IIRC). So, I don't think that Luiren was exchanged with parts of it, as all of Laerakond came to Toril, and we don't saw any Luiren halfling in Skelkor (as for why Tymanther ended up were Unther was, the land was "ripped off" from the continent it was previously, and was sent like a boulder to Unther... someone in the 4e development team didn't loved Unther, it seems ) So, whatever place Luiren (or Unther, most likely) was in Abeir it was not Tymanchebar.

I also like the idea that parts of Toril were destroyed, not exchanged. I mean, it would be totally boring if only Abeir lost land and Toril was left unscathed because "status quo".

To the lands that transferred to Abeir add parts of Neverwinter Wood. We know that at least there is canon confirmation that half of Conyberry was transferred to Abeir, as per the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. We even have a few Abeirans living with the Conyberrans (?) before the barbarians destroyed Conyberry. That's why in my Neverwinter campaign there are a significant population of dragonborn in Neverwinter. The parents and grandparents of them were refugees from Conyberry.

There is also canon proof (in the Hengeyokai article, Dragon 404) that there were transfer of lands in Kara-Tur (we don't know which lands, though).

As for Halruaa, I like to think there were no neighbors there. They either were destroyed by the arrival of Spellplagued Halruaa, or sent to the Shadowfell by the wizards during the transfer. In my version of Halruaa, the only survivors were a large clan of dragonborn (slaves of a dragon lord that had their lair there), that the Halruaans accepted into their lands out of guilt, as many of the members of the clan, and other clans as well, got transferred to the Shadowfell thanks to the Halruaan shenanigans to save themeselves.

If you want neighbors, I like the idea of dragon lords who opposed Karshimis. So, those lands way to the south of the Unther-equivalent of Abeir were not part of the Realm of Shyr.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I have to ask... why is that fun? Sending over a bunch of Faerunian cultures to just get subjugated... why?


Its not fun, its realistic. In an unknown world 10 times more hostile than Toril will ever be, where there are no gods (and beings of godly power are not benevolent), where the morals are warped to the point that even an inherent good race like the metallic dragons can be evil, and where magic is less useful than in Toril (canonically, there is no Weave there—according to both Ed and Erin—so, Weave dependent magic practices there are useless), and with a level of technology way superior to that of Toril, the highly magic-dependent Torilians would be wiped out, realistically speaking. Unless they bent to their knees and sell themselves to the Abeirans (that is what the Mulhorandi did, in canon at least).

Those Torilians that didn't bent, like the Halruaans, must have had to fight for their freedom. Heck, according to Ed the formerly pacific Halruaans are now highly militant and living in well-defended fortresses. They may have thrived in Abeir, but their culture was fundamentally changed by that world. They aren't the Halruaans of 3rd edition. And is hinted that something similar happened to the Lantanase.



Oh, and I wanted to reply to more of your stuff, but I wanted to put those thoughts I just had down first.

The part about a portal to the shadowfell at the bottom of the Shaar... yes, that would work with the theory of the lands being sucked into Shadow by Halruaa's ritual. Thank you.

On Tymanchebar/Skelkor being linked.... its on page 212 of the 4e FRCS. The question becomes whether Tymanchebar was a physically attached province or not. Still, in reading up on Tymanchebar's formation, it might be best that they were physical connected. For instance, the "battle of Crippled Mountain"... I half wonder if Crippled Mountain and Mount Cormanda aren't the same volcano (because the mountain likely wasn't named the same name as a demon trapped there if he only showed up in the last century)... which opens up whether the Eye of Blazing Rorn isn't what's holding that demon lord in place. Makes me wonder if Rorn (who is known for raging) isn't trying to take over that raging demon lord somehow and wear him like a meat suit/avatar.

Centuries before the appearance of dragonbane amber, a particularly able clan of dragonborn slaves rebelled and managed to hold an entire outlying province of Skelkor for itself for nearly two centuries. The rebels named this province Tymanchebar, and lived free, though they were constantly threatened by flights of dragons. Then the Blue Breath of Change shook the land. When the skies returned to their silver hue, all saw that the heart of Tymanchebar, Djerad Thymar, was gone. Though the remaining free dragonborn fought to retain their autonomy, their spirit was broken. Even armed with dragonbane amber, they failed to topple the Empress Dragon’s rule.

On neighbors of Halruaa and your preference

Ok, so you'd like the lands touching Halruaa to not necessarily have its mountains, but instead have a big vast "rift" of empty space. Maybe this is one of the outlying provinces of Skelkor, and it and its dragonlord were sent to the shadowfell, leaving behind a section with some dragonborn? This is a good idea (and actually something I was doing with "Ki's Cleft" blocking off a portion of Peleveran from the rest of the Eastern Shaar.

BTW, on the "sent to the shadowfell".... its occurring to me that this might mean "sent to Ravenloft". Ravenloft IS still considered a part of the shadowfell now, correct? Not sure if I'd want that, but it MIGHT be interesting.

On the Luiren thing being transferred, yeah, not real picky on the "where" they go. However, if Tymanchebar isn't actually touching Shyr as a border... yeah, then the areas of Peleveran, etc... transferring wouldn't have Tymanchebar necessarily on their eastern border. So, Shyr might have been all over the north and eastern side. Something to think about.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  20:34:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, I never found Ulgarth 'wanting'. In fact, I couldn't understand why it wasn't more 'proactive' (warlike), especially considering it's past.



I think I can answer that, and it has to do with some of what I've been thinking about. Ulgarth quite simply just didn't have the population from what I can tell. They held vast and fertile acreage, but with very little people. I'd say picture Wyoming, except that its a different climate. Thus why I'd say have something take over eastern Durpar and portions of Var (if all this transferred), and all those people go running to Ulgarth for protection. The Ulgarthians take those people and put them doing what they don't WANT to do... farming, shepherding, etc.... meanwhile their own people train as soldiers and possibly select some from the immigrants to also train up.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  21:51:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So get rid of Durpar? I don' like the idea of getting rid of durpar entirely (I've already nuked the crap out of it, both with my conjecture and with all the 4e canon, once you apply what happened to the maps to country itself). I like it being just a 'ghost' of its former self. Lets not forget they had a weird connection to Pandorym and that planer realm/cyst of his (there was some sort of odd substance they were making fake limbs out of - can't seem to recall any details from the novel Darkvision any more). Thus, you've got a primordial like being (what do Elder Evils 'count as', or are they all unique beings? can't Pandorym just be a super-corrupted Primordial?*

Just now reading his entry in 3e's Elder Evils - that was written pre-4e, so the lore is in the format of pre-primordials, but in hindsight, he sounds like that's precisely what he was. The part about foolish mortals discovering 'the spaces between the planes' sounds an awful like like a place 'out of sync' with the rest of the universe to me (Abeir?) "Given the name Pandorym by its summoners..." - I love when a piece of old lore supports my theories. Primordials - and even those first 'gods' (Estelar) didn't even have names. They didn't need them, nor a language - they all communicated psionically. You don't need a name when your 'psionic fingerprint' is recognizable by other uber-beings). Thus, when we say stuff like, "How can Bane be... blah blah blah..." MORTALS NAMED IT THAT. Mortals named all of them, and different mortals gave them all different names. They are probably amused by this (and although I hate disagreeing with Ed - who said gods/Chosen answer to the sound of their name, regardless of whether its 'for them' or not - I believe its more based on intent. It doesn't matter what you call it - the thing you are thinking of is the thing that answers, because they are going by psychic profiling, not some silly sonic outburst by an insignificant mortal. That means several different gods can share a name, even - what answers is what/who you expected to answer. It also just makes so much more sense - even a god would find it difficult to answer to its name when spoken ten thousand times a day (like the very common name 'Torm'). It would get very annoying, I would think.

Annnnnnd... I went off on a tangent. Surprise, surprise.

Anyhow, you got this ancient 'Big Bad' trapped in this 'space between the planes', and mortals named it Pandorym. It appears to have been trapped (imprisoned?), and stupid mortals released it... and then later were able to reimprison it (by the gods, according to the Elder Evils lore - I can't recall how Bruce Cordell spun it in the novel). Now in 5e, with the 4e (and 3e) lore firmly behind us, we can merge it all and imagine the stupid Imaskari managed to bring some piece of Pandorym into the Realms from Abeir (the lore from both sources does say he was 'split'), to help against the Mulan Gods, but then it was sent back. That means it may be back in Durpar now, because of the Spellplague (or it may not - it may have 'gone home' again after the Sundering 2.0... although we still have Telos, I think, so that could go either way). Just some things for you to ponder about what may have happened there in Durpar. I don't think Ulgarth would have wanted to mess with that (I never got the 'lightly populated' vibe you did), and maybe even the monsters over in Veldorn decided that was not something they wanted any part of. Thus, whats left of Durpar and House (Chaka) Datharathi may be under the control of a primordial, which would be interesting, considering the nearby 'Dragon Kings' (Semphar & Murghôm). In fact, in a weird way, it could explain the stability (détente) between all these groups - none of them wants to upset Pandorym (or rouse him/whatever).

As for Lurien - I just took that place at face value, but allowed that enough Hin 'got away' to survive elsewhere (and have been refugees for the past century, and unlike humans, they WOULD still be alive and wanting to return). I'm thinking just shy of 50% casualties - still a cataclysm to them, but not all-encompassing. Now its just a mixed realm of angry, hungry (and feral) Hin.

And you got me rereading Rise of the Runelords - I wish there was an easy place to shoe-horn it in whole-cloth, but I'd have to break it into its component parts and separate them to mesh it with the Realms, and that's way too much work ATM. Still, once again, I recommend you mine it for 'ancient giant kingdom goodness'. Its a perfect fit for your Eldritch giants. There's even an ancient (giant) city the Runelords are trying to rebuild.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2018 05:56:15
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  21:56:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and one last geography-based and related item of interest - in Ed's Dwarves Deep, they talk about 'Runes of power' from ancient times. First off, the dwarves originated (in FR) in the Yehimals, which are RIGHT THERE, and secondly, one such rune completely destroyed the city of Darrmaghongh in Murghôm. Ya know, that part of Mulhorand that used to be part of Imaskar, that was the home of Myrkul and is now ruled by Dragons... just north of the Golden Waters region. THAT Murghôm.

And only giants and Dwarves use Magical Runes... the SAME Magical Runes. Corellon may have given his people the ability to unlock parts of reality with memorized patterns inside their heads (Vancian magic), but Moradin (and Annam) gave his people the written form of those same patterns. This is probably why the Dwarves used to be denied Arcane casting - they were given their own methods. There were likely 'accords' reached by the Gods in those early days, stating that what they gave their people was for them alone, but those rules have all mostly been broken, and it would definitely be within the character of the stubborn, arch-conservative dwarves to be the last of the gods to finally violate that agreement (considering everyone else already had).

We really need to add a group in for the Giants, dragons, and dwarves; 'Procreators'? Sounds a little too... sexual. Progenitor? Too generic and also misleading. Protomortals? Premortals? I'm not liking any of them.

They would have been given 'power over the earth' (Prime material), so their magic would be physically-based (Runic). Of course, then I would want to start working-out five different types of magic for the Creatori as well (I have been thinking for years there should have been - at least with the four non-human ones, because that was the whole purpose of the Nether Scrolls to begin with - to record and assemble all the magic the other groups were using in one place).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 22:06:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  01:27:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So get rid of Durpar? I don' like the idea of getting rid of durpar entirely (I've already nuked the crap out of t, both wth my conjecture and with all the 2e canon, once you apply what happened to the maps to country itself). I like it being just a 'ghost' of its former self. Lets not forget they had a weird connection to Pandorym and that planer real/cyst of his (there was some sort of odd substance they were making fake limbs out of - can't seem to recall any details from the novel Darkvision any more). Thus, you've got a primodial like being (what do Elder Evils 'count as', or are they all unique beings? can't Pandorym just be a super-corrupted Primordial?*

Just now reading his entry in 3e's Elder Evils - that was written pre-4e, so the lore is in the format of pre-primordials, but in hindsight, he sounds like that's precisely what he was. The part about foolish mortals discovering 'the spaces between the planes' sounds an awful like like a place 'out of sync' with the rest of the universe to me (Abeir?) "Given the name Pandorym by its summoners..." - I love when a piece of old supports my theories. Primordials - and even those first 'gods' (Estelar) didn't even have names. they didn't need them, nor a langauge - they all comunicated psionically. You don't need a name when your 'psionic fingerprint' is recognizable by other uber-beings). Thus, when we say stuff like, "How can Bane be... blah blah blah..." MORTALS NAMED IT THAT. Mortals named all of them, and different mortals gave them all different names. They are probably amused by this (and although I hate disagreeing with Ed - who said gods/Chosen answer to the sound of their name, regardless of whether its 'for them' or not - I believe its more based on intent. It doesn't matter what you call it - the thing you are thinking of is the thing that answers, because they are going by psychic profiling, not some silly sonic outburst by an insignificant mortal. That means several different gods can share a name, even - what answers is what/who you expected to answer. It also just makes so much more sense - even a god would find it difficult to answer to its name when spoken ten thousand times a day (like the very common name 'Torm'). It would get very annoying, I would think.

Annnnnnd... I went off on a tangent. Surprise, surprise.

Anyhow, you got this ancient 'Big Bad' trapped in this 'space between the planes', and mortals named it Pandorym. It appears to have been trapped (imprisoned?), and stupid mortals released it... and then later were able to reimprison it (by the gods, according to the Elder Evils lore - I can't recall how Bruce Cordell spun it in the novel). Now in 5e, with the 4e (and 3e) lore firmly behind us, we can merge it all and imagine the stupid Imaskari managed to bring some piece of Pandorym into the realms form Abeir (the lore from both sources does say he was 'split'), to help against the Mulan Gods, but then it was sent back. that means it may be back in Durpar now (or it may not - it may have 'gone home' again after the Sundering 2.0... although we still have Telos, I think, so that could go either way). Just some things for you to ponder about what may have happened there in Durpar. I don't think Ulgarth would have wanted to mess with that (I never got the 'lightly populated' vibe you did), and maybe even the monsters over in Veldorn decided that was not something they wanted any art of. Thus, whats left of Durpar and House (Chaka) Datharathi may be under the control of a primordial, which would be interesting, considering the nearby 'Dragon Kings' (Semphar & Murghôm). In fact, in a weird way, it could explain the stability (détente) between all these groups - none of them wants to upset Pandorym (or rouse him/whatever).

As for Lurien - I just took that place at face value, but allowed that enough Hin 'got away' to survive elsewhere (and have been refugees for the past century, and unlike humans, they WOULD still be alive and wanting to return). I'm thinking just shy of 50% casualties - still a cataclysm to them, but not all-encompassing. Now its just a mixed realm of angry, hungry (and feral) Hin.

And you got me rereading Rise of the Runelords - I wish there was an easy place to shoe-horn it in whole-cloth, but I'd have to break it into its component parts and separate them to mesh it with the Realms, and that's way too much work ATM. Still, once again, I recommend you mine it for 'ancient giant kingdom goodness'. Its a perfect fit for your Eldritch giants. There's even an ancient (giant) city the Runelords are trying to rebuild.





No, don't get rid of Durpar entirely. In 4e the western side of the country is still there. Its the eastern side that's pretty much boring. I'd say have half of "transferred eastern Durpar" get taken over by "something" (pretty much from Huorm to Heldapan to Sandrun to Pharsul and then halfway to Morvar) while in Abeir.

Specifically the cities I list below are "gone" in 4e if you look at the map (some are "off 4e the map", but hey, if we're dropping stuff)

Durpar
Heldapan - the biggest city (50k people) and full of merchants and docks for ships... and yet not even detailed in 3.5e other than to repeatedly say that the capital was moved from here to Vaelan. Sounds like a great city to get sacked by something in Abeir, and the now penniless merchants have to flee with whatever they can carry to those nice people in Ulgarth who let them work their land in return for protection.

Sandrun - listed on the map. No information on it other than 800 years ago it got sacked along with a bunch of other cities by the Arkaiun (yawn). Let's have something move in and take it over on Abeir.

Pharsul - never learned anything about it other than they sell books and textiles and it got sacked along with a bunch of other cities by the Arkaiun. (yawn) Let's have something move in and take it over on Abeir.

Morvar - (population 20k) a very "racially mixed city"...swarthy Durparians, lighter Ulgarthians, dwarf and gnome smiths, Halfling craftsmen, elven and half-elven bards and woodworkers, orc guards. Sawmills, smithies, weaving facilities. Ok, this one city of eastern Durpar is kind of interesting .... so let's just have Ulgarth annex it in Abeir... its right across the bay... maybe they WANT to be annexed for the protection, and Ulgarth wants them for their facilities.

Flyndagol - a fortress city that was protecting Durpar from Ulgarth and orcs of the nearby mountains. So, warriors, and its on the border with Ulgarth.... sounds like another great place for Ulgarth to annex.

Isle of Ships - a big island where they build ships... which would be nice on Abeir if you want to turn Ulgarth into a raiding culture. Again, have Ulgarth annex it.

The Ajmer Forest - (not really Durpar, but full of elves and maybe LeShay... that follow the Adama... might even be interesting if these aren't elves and the "half-elves" are half-fey, but people don't understand the difference)

Var
Pyratar - second largest city in the Shining Lands (population 45k). Lots of fishing and docks. Just as busy as Heldapan. Previously had a secret dragon "overlord" posing as a humanoid who in 4e is swimming the waters near where the ruins SHOULD be, but he won't let anyone near there. So, the dragon overlord may be literally insane (which the 4e FRCS does say he IS insane) and looking for his city that just "disappeared". Lots of wheat and herds of sheep and aurochs. So, I'm hearing great place to have Ulgarth Annex. There's also some followers of Mask, which works for me in Abeir since I want him there.

Zelpir - (population 8k in 2e, but noted as a "growing city"... so triple that 28 years later) A city filled with intricate jewelry makers who also make "clever gadgets" (water clocks, wind up toys, field glasses) and rival the Lantanese for ingenuity. Also, a big shipping and caravan city for grain grown nearby. In 4e though, it just became a city that some sahuagin ate everyone following the spellplague. So, I'm hearing "half the city collapsed into the sea when the other half transferred to Abeir and left it unconnected to the coastline". They are in ruins after the transfer, but the people of Ulgarth come to their aid with raw materials to help rebuild. Great place to have Ulgarth Annex.

Myrmyr - city of 10k. Shipmakers and they work with the isle of ships... and they deal with expeditions to Maztica. However, in the 4e FRCS most of this city collapsed into the waves. Some of it survived, but it was isolated pockets "with tunnels into the underdark as part of an old cave system". The survivors of this city turned to cannibalism and became ghouls. So, I'm hearing "majority of the city started collapsing when the spellplague hit. The people fled to the docks, loaded up on their ships and fled to the nearby isle of ships which transfers to Abeir. Many died in this endeavor, but maybe 3k survived (and 2k were left behind on Toril). Many of the now homeless survivors were accepted into Ulgarth."

The western side of Durpar would stay because it was there in 4e. It is also the most interesting (that's where that whole link to Pandorym was with the plangent crystal that was being mined I think beneath Adama's Tooth in the novel. However, in 4e, they also made a hint that the special "Curna Emeralds" found in the Curna Mountains may also have something to do with plangent crystal. It should also be noted that the golden waters is golden because of a special mineral content in the water that makes the water shine gold when the sun hits it. I'll also note an idea that's hitting me.... the Adama.... everyone should worship the Adama.... the Adama is the one true god.... is the Adama some kind of entity in this area, and not just some weird friendly religion? Its whole basis seems to be make everyone feel welcome.

During the Merchant Wars of Durpar, the Gemstone chaka, a house run by a collective of dwarves, fled to Estagund rather than submit to the will of the Datharathi. With them, they brought the contents
of the Library of Ormpé, sacked long before Ormpé vanished beneath the Golden Water. Rumor says the chaka found the secret of their Curna Mountains mines in the library. Those mines are the sole sources
of Curna emeralds, bright green stones that shine with internal light when cut correctly. It’s possible that these emeralds have traces of plangent crystal (page 118) in them.


also this about the golden waters

The Golden Water contains certain minerals that give off a warm, golden hue when struck by the light of the rising or setting sun. This phenomenon is what originally gave both the bay and the Shining Lands their names, though now, most Faerûnians associate these monikers with the locals’ love of trade and the gold it brings them


Oh, and just because I never read this previously, but I'm loving it... sea elf awakens giant octopus... giant octopus becomes druid... giant octopus awakens sharks... the only thing I'd change would be that the giant octopus doesn't worship Deep Sashelas... I'd make it worship Sekolah or Umberlee and get involved with those sahuagin if its awakening sharks (I don't see Deep Sashelas condoning awakening sharks), or maybe Dagon if I could imagine him with druids.

Shining South page 112
Most of the sea creatures that dwell in the Golden Water are peaceful, though schools of sharks sometimes disrupt the pearl-diving and coral-gathering operations. The aquatic elf city called Nemilar sits at the bottom of the bay in the middle of its expanse, just northeast of Ormpé. Several years ago, a fanatical aquatic elf druid named Di’lishae Lheilos (N male aquatic elf druid 12 of Deep Sashelas), used the awaken spell to give a giant octopus sentience. He hoped to gain the creature’s aid in stopping the destruction of the coral reefs by nearby humans, who regularly harvested chunks of the coral to make jewelry. The octopus, who took the name Slulushtup, gladly provided the aid requested, but it was not enough to stop the humans’ depredations. Afterward, the octopus studied Di’lishae’s ways and eventually embraced the druidic path himself. Now Slulushtup (N male awakened giant octopus druid 9 of Deep Sashelas) has taken up residence near the chain of islands that divides the eastern half of the bay from the western half. He has begun using his own awaken spells to create a cadre of intelligent sharks and dire sharks, which he has convinced to patrol the reefs and attack coral harvesters.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  03:10:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay — Well, 4e is the edition I played the most is the one I'm more familiar with.

For what little canon info we have, the level of the technology in Abeir is near Eberronish. In a youtube video, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins talked about the fact that potentially, the technology of both returned Lantan and returned Maztica is "steam-punk technology, but elemental powered" because of their century trip on Abeir.

We do know magic items work there, also (What don't work is casting magic, unless you can produce your source of magic... that's why I believe sorcerers can use magic in Abeir, as their magic is inborn in their blood), so artificers maybe are more common there. In canon, Tymantheran dragonborn excel in engineering and artificing (?)-- in Toril, I guess only the lantanase and the gondites are artificers, IIRC.

To think about it, Eberron is also a world where magic is low level (yeah, you have flying ships, but only one person in that world can cast spells beyond 5th level, for instance).

Erin M. Evans also said that traditional medicine is more advanced in Abeir than in Toril, because the Abeirans had to survive without magical healing. In her last (Realms) novels, the dragonborn healers of Tymanther use medicinal herbs to cure even magical induced effects, and they have different practices to deal with stuff like injury and disability.

@sleyvas — On Tymanchebar stuff. It really depends on were Laerakond was located. We do know by Erin's account that "Grumbar's Gulch" (a site of one the battles of the dragonborn rebellion) was not in the lands that came as part of "Returned Abeir". So... hmmm is kinda confusing.

I have no much idea about Durpar, though. Besides of what there is in the FRCG, there is nothing more about that region in canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Jan 2018 03:12:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  06:17:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You see, I see the exact opposite where Durpar is concerned. I see the western end getting completely trashed, and them having to move entirely into the eastern half... which puts then in the path of Ulgarthi who would like to take their 'former lands of Thommar' back.

In my stuff, the only one of their cities to have survived at all on that end was Vaelan, if for no other reason than we don't need TWO 'Old Vaelens'. I see it as a very run-down, underpopulated (at least half the people left) city in decline, because that end of the Golden Waters turned into a muddy mire. A dirty, gritty place not unlike Luskan these days. Plus, they're allied with the goblins in the Curna mountains (which makes little sense to me, if you read that one short story concerning Durpar and goblins). In fact, I would say all of Durpar on that end has now unofficially become part of the Beast Lands/Veldorn at this point (I've even given them a port city - Assur or Turelve, I haven't decided, although all those fallen cities would now be occupied b monsters).

Estagud worries me - without the 'backup' of Durpar or even Var, and being surrounded by enemies, I think it might make an interesting storyline to have them slowly and subtly being 'taken over' by Zakhara. They may have foolishly requested aid, and the Grand Caliph sent ships and men, and now they are 'occupied', but no-one is calling it that. They at least have to be paying tribute to Zakhara (as 'restitution' for all those ships and manpower 'on loan'). Its a small realm, and it wouldn't upset any lore, and it would be kind of neat giving the Zakharans a toe-hold in Faerûn (its not like the cultures were much different to begin with - I've long guessed the Golden Waters region was originally settled by Zakharans). Come to think of it, Golarion has something similar going on with Qadira.

EDIT:
It has to be Assur - Turelve looks to have been destroyed. You can see on the canon 4e map that the land there extends further into the sea than it did previously. We have to remember, an insane amount of water was pouring into the Underchasm (and going WHERE, exactly? Are Drow aquatic, now? The Abolets must be thrilled). The Inner sea was hugely affected, but the next nearest body of water (that was connected by the Spellplague in 4e) is the Great Sea, and it would have been sucking nearly as much water out of that. Now, because that body of water is connected to all the other seas on Toril, and its way bigger than the SoFS all by itself, we really didn't see much in the way of a water-drop there, but the way physics and hydrodynamics work, it would have been pulling water FIRST from the nearest bodies, and the Golden Waters is right there. As water was sucked out of the Great Sea, the Great Sea would have been sucking-out the Golden Waters nearly as fast to make up for that water loss, and although it wouldn't have been as dramatic there as the inner sea, the GW is MUCH smaller than the Inner sea, and thus, it 'breaks even' - the water-drop should have been about the same in that region as it was in the SoFS. The reason why Var was 'drowned' wasn't because of tidal waves (well, maybe a little. Halruaa did 'blow up' {sort of} and Luiren did get washed away), but the main thing that ruined Var (why it can't come back like other pieces of land) is because of the water-rushing activity. It appears to me the water was sucked out of the Golden Waters right across Var, which would have washed-away a great deal of the top soil. It isn't just 'drowned', its sunken. Even with things 'back to normal', its at or below sea-level in most places (which is why I left a swamp there. That, and it takes the place of the one we lost over by Halruaa). And lastly, the Golden Waters isn't a very deep body like the Inner Sea is - you drop the water level by 50' and you're gonna drain a lot of it dry. True, things would have leveled-off and returned to something approximating normal after the first few years of the Spellplague, but the enormous damage to the region would have already been done.

A lot of this is conjecture, but its all based on me studying the 4e campaign map (an unpleasant task, I assure you). Suppose you built a scale model of 4e Faerûn and some of the surrounding area (like my 4e & 5e maps) on a table, with the terrain relief being precise, and then surround the whole thing with a border (so water won't run off). Just leave-out the Underchasm (for now). Then fill the bodies of water with real water, and take a hammer and smash a hole in the table where the Undershasm is, and watch what the water does. I can guarantee the Golden Waters would drain first (the Inner Sea would drain faster, but as I said, its both larger and deeper). I'm just not seeing (western) Durpar being able to withstand that level of cataclysm unscathed.

On the bright side, when the (western) end was drained, 'things' may have appeared that folks had no idea were there, like maybe ancient Imaskari, Sarrukh, Ilithiir, or Batrachi ruins. Now that the waters all back (and then some, in the case of Var) those new ruins may be underwater again... or maybe not. It just gives us another new toy to fiddle with.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2018 06:58:12
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  13:51:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

@Markustay — Well, 4e is the edition I played the most is the one I'm more familiar with.

For what little canon info we have, the level of the technology in Abeir is near Eberronish. In a youtube video, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins talked about the fact that potentially, the technology of both returned Lantan and returned Maztica is "steam-punk technology, but elemental powered" because of their century trip on Abeir.

We do know magic items work there, also (What don't work is casting magic, unless you can produce your source of magic... that's why I believe sorcerers can use magic in Abeir, as their magic is inborn in their blood), so artificers maybe are more common there. In canon, Tymantheran dragonborn excel in engineering and artificing (?)-- in Toril, I guess only the lantanase and the gondites are artificers, IIRC.

To think about it, Eberron is also a world where magic is low level (yeah, you have flying ships, but only one person in that world can cast spells beyond 5th level, for instance).

Erin M. Evans also said that traditional medicine is more advanced in Abeir than in Toril, because the Abeirans had to survive without magical healing. In her last (Realms) novels, the dragonborn healers of Tymanther use medicinal herbs to cure even magical induced effects, and they have different practices to deal with stuff like injury and disability.

@sleyvas — On Tymanchebar stuff. It really depends on were Laerakond was located. We do know by Erin's account that "Grumbar's Gulch" (a site of one the battles of the dragonborn rebellion) was not in the lands that came as part of "Returned Abeir". So... hmmm is kinda confusing.

I have no much idea about Durpar, though. Besides of what there is in the FRCG, there is nothing more about that region in canon.



On the Tymanchebar stuff, the reference you made to it being part of Skelkor, there's two things in it that can drive it either way as to whether it was connected or not to Laerakond while on abeir. First is that it says what became Tymanchebar was an OUTLYING province of Skelkor... which can mean like how the British Empire was spread out (and I'll note that the dragon ruler of Skelkor is an empress, not a queen). However, in the same paragraph it says that after the blue breath of change all could see that Djerad Thymar was gone (and in the entry for Tymanther, it says that Djerad Thymar was the largest portion of Tymanchebar and they felt sorry for the few who remained behind). So, Tymanchebar may have been a disconnected realm overseen by a lesser dragonlord or somesuch.

By the way, in Skelkor there's a mountain named after a demon that's trapped there, and its a volcano. The demon can't leave, and he's only been there since the spellplague. There's also some stuff written up by Erin about how Tymanchebar was formed where they killed a powerful dragon by dropping the Blazing Eye of Rorn into a volcano and the resulting energy burning the dragon up. The mountain was called Celestial Mountain prior to that, but it became known as crippled mountain. Was the location of that mountain ever revealed, or is there a chance that this demon is somehow entrapped at the "Crippled Mountain" where presumably this eye of Rorn is still. I just wonder if the demon is being "subsumed" by Rorn to wear as a meat suit or turned into a servant or something else.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14902 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  18:19:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

@Markustay — Well, 4e is the edition I played the most is the one I'm more familiar with.

For what little canon info we have, the level of the technology in Abeir is near Eberronish. In a youtube video, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins talked about the fact that potentially, the technology of both returned Lantan and returned Maztica is "steam-punk technology, but elemental powered" because of their century trip on Abeir.

We do know magic items work there, also (What don't work is casting magic, unless you can produce your source of magic... that's why I believe sorcerers can use magic in Abeir, as their magic is inborn in their blood), so artificers maybe are more common there. In canon, Tymantheran dragonborn excel in engineering and artificing (?)-- in Toril, I guess only the lantanase and the gondites are artificers, IIRC.

To think about it, Eberron is also a world where magic is low level (yeah, you have flying ships, but only one person in that world can cast spells beyond 5th level, for instance).

Erin M. Evans also said that traditional medicine is more advanced in Abeir than in Toril, because the Abeirans had to survive without magical healing. In her last (Realms) novels, the dragonborn healers of Tymanther use medicinal herbs to cure even magical induced effects, and they have different practices to deal with stuff like injury and disability.
See, this is just one of the many reasons Abeir is so confusing - it was supposed to be a no magic world, and then they began calling it a low magic world, and yet, there is more apparent magic around than on Toril. On the bright side (for me), it makes it much easier for me to slip some of my Misbegotten Realms stuff into the 'normal' Realms now. I had it where (my) Halruaa was an archipelago made up of five main island that corresponded to the Five Kingdoms of Eberron. For my homebrew I just lifted everything whole cloth and put them on my map, Dragonmarked Houses and all. Converting them now would be sliegthly harder, but maybe the end result would be worth it. Perhaps say that some Halruaans became spellscarred, but they managed to alter how it manifested. Have it to do with those Mythal-like fields we theorized the Halruaans must have been using.

Then the Halruaans go to Abeir, and they wind up on a world where dragons rule. Hence, 'Dragonmarks'. It could work. Or just use a different name for them, it that bothers you (we can just continue to use 'Spellscarred', and have this particular region have inheritable ones). And since I've left much of Halruaa islands now on my maps, I can easily make it very similar to how I am picturing it (and I did leave it kind of 'exploded' on purpose, as well as calling it a 'republic' just for that reason - I want it very factional).

As for medicine on Abeir - when I did my Drow articles for the Elven Netbook project, I tried to stress how lolth doesn't really give healing magic to her priestesses - she finds the need for healing a weakness, and feels her people should be able to get along without it. Thus, the Drow have progressed a lot further with an obscure branch of elven magic than their surface kin - artificial limbs. Ed wrote about this in the original (2e) Drow of the Underdark, but it has since been swept under the table. I think we need to bring that back; FR could use a little bit of steam/magicpunk these days (its very 'in' right now).

We could also borrow from the Iron Kingdoms setting - they had some rather ghoulish methodology to their medicine (normal clerical magic didn't really work in IK). Like the necrosurgeon. And since that setting has warjacks, which are like Warforged on steroids, a lot of that stuff would be very cool to translate into Abeir (at least, maybe one 'Steampunkish' continent).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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