Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 How does Kyuss fit into the Realms?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  18:19:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.



Technically Mellifleur is an alias of Velsharoon according to Powers and Pantheons as well. I've posited theories on this, involving Velsharoon's ascension and using one of Mellifleur's phylacteries to do it following the ToT (with Mellifleur being very weakened after the ToT rules changes).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

823 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  08:51:11  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My personal viewpoint is that the designers just saw "Mellifleur" and slapped it in Velsharoon's entry. I have it that Death's Embrace is a shared realm: Mellifleur rules the necropolis-city of Hopelorn, while the Forsaken Crypt, a vast necromantic library-cum-laboratory is Velsharoon's domain. Both powers are heads of lich-cabals, both encourage transformation into undeath, and both are allies.

They also find Evening Glory to be really fricking creepy.
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

823 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  08:54:04  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?



Kyuss is an Intermediate Power of vampires that lives in the Abyss, while Mellifleur is a Lesser Power of liches that dwells in Gehenna.

Kyuss being from Maztica one of the proposed methods of adapting the Age of Worms adventure path to the Realms. Canon Kyuss is an Oeridian deity and he started as a priest of Nerull before his ascension.
Go to Top of Page

Quickleaf
Seeker

60 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  07:37:58  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Is he though?

Kyuss is like 'the god born dead' to me. The original procedure/ritual that was supposed to turn him into a full god went awry (from what I understand, Mellifleur stole 'the juice') he's basically a still-born god, similar to that Atropal guy. So not quite mortal, but also, not quite a god. something stuck in-between. He is constantly still trying for full godhood, hence his schemes popping-up every now and then on different worlds.

If you make his Divine Realm actually be a Domain of Dread, its the perfect setup. He can even have his own island. In fact, make it inside the body of a giant, dead 'god' (a kraken-like creature of enormous proportions) - his digs will literally be a rotting corpse. And as I said, the Dark powers may have snatched him, and for once, things just didn't go their way - he still had a teensy-tiny bit of 'divinity', and that was enough to make him able to be able to make contact with the outside world (if not escape himself - he can send avatar-like manifestations through sometimes, and that's what PCs would encounter, but the 'real' kyuss will always still be trapped (so long as his planned are thwarted, that is).

Mistworms - odd , slimy little creatures that can literally bore through ANYTHING, including planer barriers, and even magical wards and fields, given enough time. Even the powerful 'veil' the Dark Powers have in place - impenetrable even by Gods* - can be gotten through by the mistworms. They exude a weird, anti-magical form of 'decay' that will even erode these powerful forces; not in their entirety, but just enough for the worms to slip trough. Kyuss can use these to make contact with his disciples - he implants 'orders' in the worm, and then the worm finds the people it needs to (I did mention they can literally create 'wormholes', right?), and burrow into the ear of the target underling. Of course, most of those 'blessed' with the words of Kyuss eventually die from having the thing inside their heads, eating away at their brains, but its a small price to pay to help your god, eh?


*Just had an odd, random thought - what if the 'Dark Powers' are/were Imaskari? They're the only other group I know they were able to build 'Godwalls'. But then again, its not like they were the types to kidnap people and entire cultures from worlds... WAIT A SECOND..



Once again, I am late to the conversation. :) Amazingly, your thoughts on incorporating Kyuss into Tomb of Annihilation are very similar to my own!

I'm thinking about making Kyuss the atropal. Which is isn't totally off base, as Kyuss is basically a failed god, right?

"Atropals are stillborn godlings who spontaneously rise as undead...When an atropal rises, the gods cringe, and seek to banish the horrid remnant by sealing it away in a separate cemetery plane or beneath the crypts of dead civilizations. (3e Epic Level Handbook)
"Atropals are unfinished godlings that had enough of a divine spark to rise as undead. A few atropals roam freely across the planes, while others are sealed away in separate realms or buried beneath the ruins of dead civilizations." (4e Monster Manual)
"An atropal is a ghastly, unfinished creation of an evil god, cast adrift and abandoned long ago." (5e Tomb of Annihilation)

In Age of Worms, Kyuss is portrayed as a demigod. In Elder Evils, he is portrayed as "neither mortal nor god - he was something far worse."

In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  09:08:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

823 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  14:31:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.
Go to Top of Page

Quickleaf
Seeker

60 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  16:54:42  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.



Hmm. Well, it's not a tidy classification system, but I think the 5e DMG offers some possible explanations about how a cleric worshipping a demigod might gain spells...

    [*]The demigod is worshipped as part of a pantheon.
    [*]The demigod is "worshipped" via a mystery cult, which emphasizes identifying with certain aspects of divinity, and seems to be connected to pantheon-worship.
    [*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres spirits as in animism.
    [*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres a force (e.g. entropy, life, knowledge) or a philosophy.


Finally, several creatures described as vestiges in previous editions would fit for a Warlock to treat as an otherworldly patron granting it magic.

With Kyuss' espousing a doctrine of "life is a fleeting illusion, the afterlife a lie, and undeath the only true path to immortality", I could definitely see Clerics revering Kyuss but deriving their spells from their belief in that philosophy. Or they could be Warlocks.

Edited by - Quickleaf on 07 Mar 2018 16:58:22
Go to Top of Page

Quickleaf
Seeker

60 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  17:03:08  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while investigating how to fit Kyuss into Tomb of Annihilation I stumbled upon this gem from the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (2001): http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Uluu_Thalongh ; if that doesn't evoke Kyuss thematically, I don't know what does!

The Uluu Thalongh was a terrifying monster of Chultan jungle legend.[1]
The Uluu Thalongh was an ancient, massive, intelligent, and baleful monster. Its actual appearance was not known—if it had a normal "form" at all. Instead, the Uluu manifested itself from "within" the trees and plants of the jungle, appearing as bulges and ripples as it moved along.[1]
The Uluu's approach usually came with a strange sound like that of atonal pipes. The Uluu's other manner of sound-making was far more terrifying. It had the ability to sting sentient prey with a sharp root and suck the hapless victim's innards out. With the empty husk that remained, the Uluu was able to control the body and speak through its lips. Using this method, the Uluu would often lure further victims into its clutches by imitating friends or pretending to be a traveler in need.[1]
When moving within the jungle plants, the Uluu could make any branch into a jawed tentacle that would snap and tear and kill until slaying all in a given area. Somehow, the Uluu could locate its prey with precision, even without any sort of eyes.[1]
If a possessed branch were severed from its plant, the Uluu would cease attacking, but it could never seem to be destroyed in this or any other manner, despite attempts by groups of wizards to set fire to large swaths of forest in hopes of killing the legendary beast.[1]
The name Uluu Thalongh was granted by a Chultan tribe long since gone extinct. The meaning of the term is equally forgotten.[1]
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  01:06:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.


Yeah, I wouldn't count demipowers as quasi-powers, at least not mechanically. There are a few other unique or semi-unique things that could go into that category, like some of the acrhfiends (and arch-whatevers), Artopal(s), at least some of the Elder Evils, probably the Archomentals (just more 'arch-somethings'), etc.

The 'Elder Titans' (Empyreans) was a good call, though.

I would almost say its like a step between godhood and demigodhood, except demigods are more 'deity' than the Quasi's, so its almost like a 'side path' - same level power-wise (Exarch), but they kind of 'veered off the road to godhood', which means some of them could be quite a bit more powerful than exarchs (demipowers), but they are still not 'deities'. For example, Orcus could probably cream just about any demigod in a fight, so I'd give him 'Quasipower' status.

Its just a term for 'everything that does quite fit godhood but otherwise has that kind of power'. So Quasi's can be anywhere from demi- to greater power in levels of pure energy.

@Quickleaf - nice catch. That DOES indeed fit Kyuss nicely. Especially if you add-in my take that he cannot fully manifest in the Prime Material (because he is trapped elsewhere, whether you go with the Domains of Dread or not). Its more like he is a terrible, 'evil spirit', unless he can take control of a 'husk' (emptied body).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 01:08:25
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  12:25:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually Uluu Thalongh fit's perfectly with how Kyuus is presented in Eric L. Boyd's conversion - as Kyuus in the conversion is from Chult, specifically, he was originally from the Tabaxi:
quote:
Origins of Kyuss
After the collapse of the yuan-ti empire of
Mhairshaulk, the yuan-ti and their distant
cousins, the couatls, battled for control of
the Chultan peninsula. Around the time of
Netheril’s founding, the couatl population
declined precipitously, and they sought
another race to keep the western end of the
Chultan Peninsula free of yuan-ti influence.
Eventually the couatl settled on the human
tribes of a distant continent to the southwest
and preached to them the teachings of
Ubtao. Those tribes who accepted Ubtao’s
message (the most prominent of which were
the Eshowe, the Tabaxi, and the Thinguth)
followed the winged serpents in a great
pilgrimage across the seas to the Jungle of
Chult (Amedio Jungle) in –2,809 DR.
The tribes landed on the Wild Coast and
marched inland to the Peaks of Flame, where
the avatar of Ubtao welcomed them. After
all but a handful of the winged serpents
then withdrew from southwestern Faerûn,
the Father of Chult founded the great city of
Mezro (Sulm) in –2,637 dr and dwelt there
for a time among the Tabaxi, the greatest of
the tribes, while the other tribes scattered
throughout the jungles.
In the Year of Reverent Threnody (–653 dr),
a Tabaxi (Flan) named Kyuss and his followers
fled Mezro for the Chultengar, a dark region
on the eastern border of the Jungle of Chult.
There Kyuss founded the city of Kuluth-
Mar, based upon the worship of a six-armed
god of death named Jergal (Nerull).Afer his
followers found the plates that spoke of the
Age of Worms, Kyuss received the spellweaver
lich who gave him the gift of a single green
worm and built the Spire of Long Shadows.
Further details on the history of the
Chultan peninsula and the inhabitants of the
Chultengar are given in Serpent Kingdoms.


Indeed, the Jergal was also described as originating in Chult in the same conversion:
quote:
In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.


Kyuus, is there actually an avatar of sorts of Jergal, but separate, and it is explained why he can seem not fitting with Jergal to some:
quote:
According to myth (detailed in full in
Faiths & Avatars), Jergal grew bored of his
role as Lord of the Dead and voluntarily
divided his portfolios among Bane, Bhaal,
and Myrkul. The truth is rather more sinister.
Jergal harbored great ambitions to bring all
the Realms under his rule, including all
the other gods and even Ao, the Overgod.
However, Ao’s strictures prevented Jergal
from growing beyond the status of a greater
god, meaning that he could never force all the
other gods to bow down before his throne.
Undeterred, the Lord of the End of
Everything hit upon a plan that would allow
him to evade Ao’s strictures. First, Jergal set in
motion a series of prophecies that would mark
the beginning of the Age of Worms, including
inscribing a process on a set of bronze disks
by which an ambitious mortal (Kyuss) could
ascend to godhood. Second, Jergal embedded
three compulsions in his mind: give away
his portfolios to three gods and profess to be
bored with his role, consume those three gods
after all three had been reborn, and consume
the ascended mortal who followed the
process noted above. Lastly, Jergal extracted
all knowledge of his plan from his own mind,
other than the latent compulsions, and placed
it within the first green worm. Over time,
Jergal’s extracted knowledge was thereby
split among all the worms created by Kyuss.
This last step allowed the Lord of the End of
Everything to avoid Ao’s oversight, as Jergal
himself was thereafter unaware of his own
plan and no other single creature knew the
whole plan as well.

Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2018 12:29:33
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  12:32:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.



No, Acererak is a vestige. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuss isn't the same. Perhaps the creation of the epic version of atropal is one of many means by which a vestige can try to escape their imprisonment and be "born again" into the world. Maybe they do this somehow by trying to "convert" the "godstone" body of a dead god or something by feeding it enough power to create a tether.... which could feed back into the whole idea of Tenebrous and Orcus, because ultimately Orcus' godstone body was used to "bring him back". For all we know, its not TRULY Orcus in the demon lord's body any longer... or perhaps not SOLELY Orcus (it could be Orcus with a rider in his mind vying for control). Given some of the things Orcus was doing in 4e, that might make some sense.... as maybe some of the ties to the place where vestiges go has something to do with the abyss and its creation. After all, we do have this concept of "Hidden Layers" of the Abyss, and we know there's layers of the abyss with connections to shattered night.

Also, they specifically say demigod. Granted, what I'm going to say kind of goes against canon, but it also goes with more classical lore. If we say there is a difference between demigod and demipower, it works.... and maybe people "in the know" have been confused over such. By that I would give an example of Iyachtu Xvim... he is a demigod... the son of a god. However, he advanced to demipower at some point by achieving a higher divine rank and obtaining worshippers.

I will note here that 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons had adopted this new term (i.e. demipower instead of demigod), but then 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons went back to calling things demigods (though there was indeed a divine rank 0 that couldn't grant powers for children of gods). Not sure what happened in 4th edition, etc... as far as terminology.... and of course, anything of this sort would be US making our own new paradigm.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  12:39:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Baltas, where's this conversion by Eric Boyd of Kyuss presenting him as a Tabaxi in Chultengar from? Just curious? Dungeon mag or something?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  12:55:21  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, it's from Dungeon (specifically a web suplement). Here is the link:
https://www.paizo.com/dungeonissues/130/DA130_Supplement_H.pdf

I think in some ways, it's even superior to the original ie the Ebon Triad was made up originally from somewhat unrealated gods - Erythnul, Hextor, and Vecna - while Erythnul and Hextor are from the same pantheon (Oerdian), and have some connections, but Vecna was unrelated to both, and of a diferent origin (ie Flan). Here it's made of the Dead Tree - very closely related gods - and it has even more sense the splinter cult arose, in part to resurrect their gods (as Myrkul and Bhaal were still dead when the adventure took place. Well, with Myrkul it was a tad bit mre complicated...and Bane also could be still dead, if you believe Xvim just impersonates him, and was told in canon part of Bane'sworshippers believe that).

Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2018 13:07:58
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  14:20:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. I have so many dungeon magazines that I never even unwrapped. I looked at the wells of darkness because of people talking about the vestiges, but the rest I never looked into the path.

Hmmm, so the ties of Jergal to spellweavers CAN be said to be "almost canon" to a degree... I say almost only because these are optional rules for the adventure path. I like that. I was going to tie spellweavers to the "land of the insect men" in Anchorome, so also having someone specifically having them in the realms... and in an area of the realms which has ties to Maztica.... that's kind of useful.

Hmmm, and if Jergal's goal was to supplant Ao, then perhaps many suppositions I've said like Mask and Leira working against Cyric.... the escalation of Kelemvor... etc... may all have been last second "workings" by Ao to stop Jergal.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Mar 2018 14:33:06
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  15:45:07  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, there may be more to that...as George Krashos on Ed's site (the Realms Secretariat/The Ed Greenwood Group), in another semi-official lore also tied Jergal to spellweavers, although that account is slightly different:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160831114556/http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/

I think writers in general hinted for years the connection of Jergal to Spellweavers, so it may even go beyond "almost canon", if still not exactly 100% (if I make sense here).

With Ao taking subtle/indirect countermeassures against Jergal, it's a great idea, as technically, Jergal isn't breaking Ao's rules, due working via Kyuss, and not te proper Jergal even not knowing about it.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  19:04:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.



No, Acererak is a vestige. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuss isn't the same. Perhaps the creation of the epic version of atropal is one of many means by which a vestige can try to escape their imprisonment and be "born again" into the world. Maybe they do this somehow by trying to "convert" the "godstone" body of a dead god or something by feeding it enough power to create a tether.... which could feed back into the whole idea of Tenebrous and Orcus, because ultimately Orcus' godstone body was used to "bring him back". For all we know, its not TRULY Orcus in the demon lord's body any longer... or perhaps not SOLELY Orcus (it could be Orcus with a rider in his mind vying for control). Given some of the things Orcus was doing in 4e, that might make some sense.... as maybe some of the ties to the place where vestiges go has something to do with the abyss and its creation. After all, we do have this concept of "Hidden Layers" of the Abyss, and we know there's layers of the abyss with connections to shattered night.

Also, they specifically say demigod. Granted, what I'm going to say kind of goes against canon, but it also goes with more classical lore. If we say there is a difference between demigod and demipower, it works.... and maybe people "in the know" have been confused over such. By that I would give an example of Iyachtu Xvim... he is a demigod... the son of a god. However, he advanced to demipower at some point by achieving a higher divine rank and obtaining worshippers.

I will note here that 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons had adopted this new term (i.e. demipower instead of demigod), but then 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons went back to calling things demigods (though there was indeed a divine rank 0 that couldn't grant powers for children of gods). Not sure what happened in 4th edition, etc... as far as terminology.... and of course, anything of this sort would be US making our own new paradigm.
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored. Think of them as epic-level 'evangelists' - they support a deity and help it earn 'worship juice' from the masses, by putting a 'more personal touch' unto aspects of the religion (for example, Ilmater calls his 'Saints'). This profits both the aspiring god and the actual god; think of it like being among the top-ranking salesperson for a big company, with 'commision'. However, its really always been the god who's been granting the spells, NOT the demigod. And BTW, I say the same thing about primordials (to fix the awkwardness between 3e and 4e) - that primordials and Deities get together and create a faith, and then they 'split the profits'. Unfortunately, I don't think that bit ever caught on. I don't know why - I thought it was a fairly simple solution to a major lore snafu. Anyhow, sometimes the canon supported this - that it was the 'higher ups' that were actually granting the spells, but at other times it was a bit murkier. Still, it makes the most sense, in any edition.

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in). So its almost like the Demigods are running 'farm teams' for the main religion - most of the really powerful 'players' will move on up to 'the Majors' if they get too high a level.

As for DvR '0' - I always loved that concept, and in my homebrew material I say you hit that automatically at level 25 (it can be gotten earlier through various means, including divine intervention and just plain old popularity). This means you are 'on the cusp' of Godhood. You've managed to generate 'that spark', but you now have to work at it if you want to 'fan the flames' and attain true godhood, eventually. The children of gods automatically get this 'spark', so level/popularity (or notoriety) has nothing to do with it in that case, but those things can further your 'ascensin' faster than is possible for 'regular mortals'.

I would - and this is PURE houserules - give people an age extension for each level past 20. This has to do with how magic works, especially in the Realms ("magic = 'Life'), and even non-magic users would benefit because you've generated a personal well of power within you, so you are starting to achieve 'immortal' (DvR '0') status. Lets say something like a +10% extension on your lifespan per level over 19. Something along those lines. This is more based on fantasy literature (modern AND folklore) - uber-powerful types (HEROES & Main Villains) always seem to live longer than everyone else.

ESPECIALLY in the Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 19:08:01
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  04:51:43  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).


2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."

This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 09 Mar 2018 04:52:25
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  16:24:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).


2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."

This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.

Jeff



Wow, I had forgotten all that about demigods only being able to grant up to 5th level. That actually is something that I didn't like, because from a metagaming perspective it kind of forced players to steer away from these demigods. I totally get the idea, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't favor it as a rule at my table.

That being said, I like the "flavor" of that concept. What would be a better way to do this nowadays without discouraging players from using these deities? For instance, if there WAS some kind of hindrance, it encourages priests of said deity to try and create a following for their god, which is great for roleplaying.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Scots Dragon
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  22:20:28  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).


2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."

This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.

Jeff



Wow, I had forgotten all that about demigods only being able to grant up to 5th level. That actually is something that I didn't like, because from a metagaming perspective it kind of forced players to steer away from these demigods. I totally get the idea, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't favor it as a rule at my table.

That being said, I like the "flavor" of that concept. What would be a better way to do this nowadays without discouraging players from using these deities? For instance, if there WAS some kind of hindrance, it encourages priests of said deity to try and create a following for their god, which is great for roleplaying.



If I remember correctly, those details were mostly left out of the Forgotten Realms' Faith and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities books. Which indicates that it's probably not the same for the Forgotten Realms.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  23:30:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).

Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).

So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.

Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.

I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.

So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2018 23:34:26
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

823 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  04:17:30  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It just seems really unfair to demipowers. The ones who need worship are the ones who can't actually bestow power on their priests.

Things become a bit more equal when all deities grant all spell levels. Clerics of greater powers have a far greater support network and resources to draw from, while clerics of demipowers trade away resources in exchange for a more personal connection to their patron, who has more invested in them. A cleric of, say, Cyric isn't really going to get anything more than an odd omen or two, but a cleric of Savras has probably met his god and there's a chance of divine intervention if something goes wrong.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  15:06:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).

Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).

So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.

Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.

I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.

So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.




Yeah, the problem I have here is the unbalanced effect. Essentially, for most players, this is just going to force them to choose major gods. However, what if there were something to making having a demipower as your patron a nice thing. Maybe you get more turn undead attempts because your deity is more "focused" on you. Maybe you get some additional type of bonus towards a skill or something based upon the ... what's it called in 5e? Domain?... that you chose to follow if you deity is say a demipower or a lesser power. Or maybe something tailored to each demipower (for instance, maybe a cleric of Karsus can add two wizard spells from the school of transmutation to his spell list at each each spell level that he advances, and gains an extra 2 spells prepared in total). Essentially, you are such a special thing to your deity that he wants to make sure you have as much of a benefit as he can give you.... unlike the priests of those greater gods who are treated as just another cog in the wheel by their deities.

As far as how to make the disadvantage work.... Maybe they can get higher level spells (which now the disparity wouldn't be 6th and 7th levels, it would be 8th and 9th level spells), but its from a much contracted list. Or maybe you get the spell slots, but have to fill them with lower level spells.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7379 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  15:08:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

It just seems really unfair to demipowers. The ones who need worship are the ones who can't actually bestow power on their priests.

Things become a bit more equal when all deities grant all spell levels. Clerics of greater powers have a far greater support network and resources to draw from, while clerics of demipowers trade away resources in exchange for a more personal connection to their patron, who has more invested in them. A cleric of, say, Cyric isn't really going to get anything more than an odd omen or two, but a cleric of Savras has probably met his god and there's a chance of divine intervention if something goes wrong.



Exactly Lord of Bones. The personal touch is what I'm going for. What do you think of the idea I just posted above?

In fact, taking your priest of Savras as an example.... maybe Savras recognizes that his priests will be hindered in spellcasting... so he encourages multi-classing in 5e. For instance, I had written up these two feats from my complete red book of spell strategy.


Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities
Prerequisite:
requires either the knowledge domain or the arcana domain (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide pg 125) . The character must be at least 8th level and multiclassed in the cleric class and either the bard, sorcerer, or wizard class.
You serve a deity whose focus in on some aspect of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Corellon, etc.. )or knowledge (Deneir, Oghma, Milil, Gond, etc...), and you seek to improve your spellcasting in both fields. As a result, you are able to prepare higher level spells
The character's understanding of multiple arcana allows them to improve their ability to prepare higher level spells. The exact mechanics of this depend on how many class levels of difference separate their cleric and their bard, sorcerer, or wizard levels (whichever of the three is the lowest if the character has levels in more than one of these, or chosen by the character if they are equal). If four or more levels separates the two classes, then the lesser of the two classes is treated as though it were four levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” (this does not affect the number of spell slots available). If three levels separate the two, then three levels are added to the lesser and one to the greater. If two levels or less separate the two classes, then both classes are treated as though they were two levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” . This number changes as the character levels and changes this difference between his cleric and other arcane classes. Thus, a cleric 4/wizard 4 would prepare spells as a 6th lvl cleric and as a 6th lvl wizard, but if he went on to become a cleric 4/wizard 7 then it would be preparing spells as a 7th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard, and cleric 4/wizard 8 would be preparing spells as an 8th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard. Similarly, a cleric 2/wizard 10 would be preparing spells as a 6th lvl cleric and a 10th lvl wizard, but such a character would be losing his 4th lvl clerical ability increase/feat.
In addition, the character learns the thaumaturgy cantrip and has the below spells prepared and/or known in each class that can prepare spells of that level, even if that spell isn't normally on their spell list.
1st level – Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic
2nd level – arcane lock
3rd level – counterspell


Multiple spellcaster classes
Prerequisite –
the character must have at least two levels in two classes providing the Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature. The spellcasting classes involved must be ones that provide full spellcasting levels for adding up available spell slots when multi-classing (i.e. Bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard, but not paladin, ranger, eldritch knight or Arcane Trickster). The character must have a 3rd level spell slot and be at least a 6th lvl character.
Due to his study of multiple spellcasting traditions, the character has learned to prepare higher level spells than the number of levels he has in his current spellcasting classes would allow.
When this feat is taken, the character must choose two classes which allow her to qualify for this feat that the character possesses. For both of his classes, the character is treated as though two levels higher in regards to “spells prepared or known” for spellcasters. If one of the classes is a pact magic class (i.e. warlock), the character is treated as two pact magic class (i.e. warlock) levels higher in regards of the slot level, but in addition the character's “spell slots per level” on the Multiclass Spellcaster table are increased by two (such that a 6th level wizard / 6th level warlock would have the spell slots of an 8th level multi-class spellcaster). If the character reaches 16th level and more than 10 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from two to four. If the character reaches 20th level and more than 12 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from four to six.
It should be noted that this feat is intended to be combined with similar feats, such as “Mystic Hierophant”, “Theurgist Adept” , “Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities”, “Fochluchan Lyrist”, “Song Mage”, and “Nature Priest”. It is the only feat meant to be able to combine with such feats.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Mar 2018 15:19:05
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

823 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  03:13:02  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).

Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).

So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.

Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.


Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.

I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.

So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.




Yeah, the problem I have here is the unbalanced effect. Essentially, for most players, this is just going to force them to choose major gods. However, what if there were something to making having a demipower as your patron a nice thing. Maybe you get more turn undead attempts because your deity is more "focused" on you. Maybe you get some additional type of bonus towards a skill or something based upon the ... what's it called in 5e? Domain?... that you chose to follow if you deity is say a demipower or a lesser power. Or maybe something tailored to each demipower (for instance, maybe a cleric of Karsus can add two wizard spells from the school of transmutation to his spell list at each each spell level that he advances, and gains an extra 2 spells prepared in total). Essentially, you are such a special thing to your deity that he wants to make sure you have as much of a benefit as he can give you.... unlike the priests of those greater gods who are treated as just another cog in the wheel by their deities.

As far as how to make the disadvantage work.... Maybe they can get higher level spells (which now the disparity wouldn't be 6th and 7th levels, it would be 8th and 9th level spells), but its from a much contracted list. Or maybe you get the spell slots, but have to fill them with lower level spells.



Depends on the god.

Clerics (and spellcaster worshippers) of demipowers may have an expanded spell list, or DC/caster level bonuses, or channel energy/turn undead has greater effect.

Let's take Velsharoon: maybe spellcasters in his service gain access to expanded spell lists, with wizards finding clerical necromancy spells available to them (and vice versa). Necromancers and necrophants, in particular, may find that undead are friendlier to them, or that the rituals of lichdom become clearer and easier to navigate. Maybe a favored cleric or wizard is rescued from adventurers by a flight of wraiths escorting him to safety.

You can actually repurpose many prestige class features from 3.5e and Pathfinder as 'boons' demipowers grant. Maybe warrior-priests in Velsharoon's service are bestowed the lich touch ability from the agent of the grave. Maybe a sufficiently devoted Savrasian cleric wakes up one morning to find that he's gained the Eldritch Eye feat for free. Maybe a sufficiently devoted and powerful wizard is going over his library one morning and finds a curious book that definitely wasn't there before, like The Crystalline Tome of the All-Seeing One, or The Black Pages of Velsharoon, wherein are spells developed by those gods when they were mortals.
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  06:22:46  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I've never had an issue with the spell level limit for demipowers and lesser powers (who are limited to granting 6th level spells). The *overwhelming* majority of worshipers of any deity are not priests, and likely to have little actual experience with priestly magic, and the overwhelming majority of priests will never get high enough level to gain access to 6th or 7th level spells.

Basically, all it really affects are *players* (not even PCs, since the character wouldn't make a choice on deity to worship based on that sort of thing). Even then, I've never actually had a campaign get that high level anyway (I've been streaming a Spelljammer campaign for a year now, and the party's priest is still only 4th level). A DM could always make a one-off work-around for a player, while preserving the limitation in general, or it could be a challenge that a player wants to impose on themselves. There *should* be greater limitations on less-powerful deities, IMO; I know that's somewhat anathema in modern D&D iterations, though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000