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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  13:36:11  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.
Actually Vecna wa a demigod when he was captured. It was the boldest move the Dark Powers ever did and they could barely contain him. The second he ascended to lesser deityhood, he just broke out, the Dark Powers could hardly hold a demigod, the could not hold a full fledged lesser deity
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  17:03:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.
Actually Vecna wa a demigod when he was captured. It was the boldest move the Dark Powers ever did and they could barely contain him. The second he ascended to lesser deityhood, he just broke out, the Dark Powers could hardly hold a demigod, the could not hold a full fledged lesser deity
PRECISELY, which was my whole point with Kyuss. Except Kyuss didn't have the foundation (or notoriety/fame) that Vecna had/has, so he can't seem to ever 'catch a break' (get out of his 'Shadowfell prison' that I conjectured he is stuck in).

He can fume, and he can throw himself against its walls, but all he's managed to do is create little magical worms that can 'bore through' reality into other planes (in my Homebrew, that is). Of course, he might not even realize he's in the Shadowfell, if he is living inside a rotted, bloated corpse as I also theorized (I'm talking about a Kraken-like dead body at least the size of a city, and probably much larger). As far as he knows, he is still inside his own 'realm', but something has put a barrier around it. The only reason why I've suggested shunting him into the Shadowfell at all is that it makes it easier to digest the whole 'one canon to rule them all' thing we have going on now, since 4e.

And as an aside, I'd do the same with Erelhei-Cinlu at this point. Say it was settled from Toril's underdark (I had lore about that elsewhere - an ultra-orthodox priestess of Lolth led a group of her people away from Menzoberranzen into the Shadowdark, and they then found other 'paths' up and out into Greywhawk). Eventually, the 'old ways' back to Toril's Underdark were forgotten, or became unusable. I originally came up with this because of the whole 'Drow started on Toril' thing (which they DID), and also the odd mention of the GH city in an FR list of Drow cities (at one time, other Drow thought Erelhei-Cinlu was in Realmspace). Since 4e was kind enough to give us the Shadowdark, it all falls into place now.

You know, we tend to complain a LOT about lore from other D&D settings getting dumped into FR, but have you ever considered it from the point of view of fans of other D&D settings? FR stole much of their thunder. We literally stole Avariel and Arachnea from Mystara (OD&D). The ENTIRE D&D MULTIVERSE got realigned because of The Forgotten Realms. 4e was OUR FAULT (or rather, our favorite setting's fault... from an in-game perspective, that is).

So piss & moan about it all you want, but FR took a much bigger 'dump' on everyone else's setting than they did to ours. We are literally complaining that the toys we took from those other settings 'aren't good enough' for us. Thats like the guy who robbed your TV calling you up and complaining because it doesn't work very well. Think about that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 17:06:30
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  17:49:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I see odd that nobody has mentioned that Kyuss operated out of Maztica in both the adventure path and in the Elder Evils plot hook.


Be more specific



That Kyuss perhaps doesn't have a spot in both Faerunian history and pantheon because of the fact that he operated (or still operates) in Maztica. A place that Faerunians know little of. So, perhaps the intelligent undead of Faerun see unattractive Kyuss's religion, with so many gods for intelligent undead in Faerun. But you cannot say the same for the intelligent undead of Maztica. They have no alternatives in that matter.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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The Masked Mage
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USA
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  23:12:45  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah - well, you're the Columbian :P Guess you'd know better what they'd like than we :)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  07:20:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, Kyuss does fit an Aztec-like deity fairly well (they were all kinda gross). And Chult is like the 'red-headed stepchild' of Faerûn (it had its own pantheon... of ONE lol), so it too could have had god-like entities we are unaware of.

Heck, after the giant talking rodents in that novel, I'd believe anything about Chult.

Kyuss, Mellifleur, Vecna, Velsharoon, even Orcus, etc (and Kiaransalee, who might be tRQ?) - I'm kind of amazed there is room for so many undead gods... which is an oxymoron unto itself. Plus, why would undead be faithful to anything? Its not like they have an afterlife to worry about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2018 07:21:11
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  00:16:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  00:23:03  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the worshipers equals personal power thing never made much sense to me - it makes gods who are rough on worshipers make NO sense. Also, I've always had an issue with gods claiming souls after they kill a worshiper - unless you're the god of betrayal this is entirely counter to the whole notion of the FR system.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:03:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Ah - well, you're the Columbian :P Guess you'd know better what they'd like than we :)




Well, the pre-Columbian cultures of my country are totally different from those of the Mesoamericans (the ones Maztica draws inspiration from). The only well-known of those cultures of my country is the Muiscan, because of the legend of El Dorado (a legend that many people attributes to other cultures, I may add). Muiscans had more in common with the Incans than with the Aztecs or Mayans.

But, on topic, my point is that Kyuss doesn't figure in the history of the Realms, even if he is a god (or would-be god, or whatever), because the history of the Realms we know is mostly from the point of view of Faerûn (and mostly, from the point of view of Elminster), and so, a power that operates in another continent, one that is mostly unknown for the Faerunians (just "discovered" in the 1350s or so; and people from Faerun only had a few decades exploring Maztica before the land was transported to another world for a hundred years), would be also unknown for us the players.

So, my point was mostly an answer to this:

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Thanks for the info. The only problem I'm having is the fact that he hasn't been mentioned in Realm's past, with good reason. Someone like Kyuss would have stood out had he not beem shoe horned into the Realms by the current edition. This is why just throwing anything into the Realms doesn't fit.



He was not mentioned in Faerun's past because he was not operating in Faerun. His turf was unknown Maztica (from the Faerunian, and therefore ours, point of view).

And also, I also think Kyuss feels a little bit Aztec...

Now, addressing other stuff in this posts

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Kyuss is pretty much a joke, though. Nerull doesn't like him much, and the power that usurped his ascension is much more powerful than he is. The other powers of undeath have much more to offer prospective worshippers than he does. Kyuss is not a patron of sentient undead; his creations are mindess, slavering things sent to rend and slaughter the living. Sentient undead, when they bother to worship anything at all, turn towards the evil deities of their living days or to the patrons of their respective kinds (i.e. Kiaransalee, Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, Velsharoon).



I don't think Kyuss is a joke. Or, more accurately, that he will remain a joke. Is highly implied that Kyuss is related to Nihal, an Elder Evil from the Far Realm that is related with the Eldest (one of the Aboleth's Elder Gods). In fact, some presume that Nihal is in fact an "evolution" of Kyuss in the far future.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 01:08:44
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:21:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's only if you believe that Kyuss is a Far Realm Elder Evil. Which he isn't, seeing as how he was a priest of Nerull. 4e radically retcons or rewrites the histories of several deities; Kyuss has nothing to do with the Far Realm other than possibly being a patsy of a Far Realm deity. He's the patron of creepy worm-like undead; his creations, while gross, aren't the rejections of reality like the Far Realms.

If I had to tie Kyuss to an Elder Evil, it would be Mak Thuum Ngatha.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:44:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't the sourcebook "Elder Evils" a 3.5 book? (one of the last books, but still 3.5e). Because it is that book that says Kyuss was an Elder Evil. Well, not exactly Kyuss, but the "Worm that Walks", that was born from Kyuss's demise.

Although, yes, the relationship between Kyuss and Nihal was something they brought in 4e (near the end of the edition, IIRC).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 01:45:41
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  02:31:36  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "Worm that Walks" in EE is sort of an alternate Kyuss apparently. Kyuss shows in the Age of Worms with full stats, and he's much stronger than the EE version. EE also neglects to mention Kyuss's other minions like his pet dracolich, so I wouldn't exactly count it as canon as far as the Age of Worms is concerned, especially since one of the campaign points is that a well of many worlds mixed with a sphere of annihilation erases the Prime Material Plane.

The Elder Evils book also claims that Zargon was an Ancient Baatorian and could not be slain by the gods (He's not a Baatorian, and he's only CR 16; the Baatorians vanished long before the baatezu showed up and Zargon was just a 1e boss monster that was hyped up in EE), and that at least one obyrith lord is an Elder Evil. The Elder Evils book is full of questionable canonicity, and it looks like several inexperienced authors got together to make it.

Basically, I'd take anything EE says with a pinch of salt.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  03:09:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But isn't the "Age of Worm" incanonical for the Realms, as well? I mean, the author said that the AP isn't canon. Or something like that (the whole stuff is on Kyuss's article in the wiki).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  06:37:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are rules to adapt the AoW into Faerun and Eberron, but the path itself isn't canon to the Forgotten Realms. Kyuss is a Greyhawk god. The sum of Kyuss's influence in the Realms is in that blurb about adapting the AoW in the Realms. As far as canon is concerned (up to the end of 3.5e), the Age of Worms takes place in Oerth.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  09:19:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't the "Age of Worm" incanonical for the Realms, as well? I mean, the author said that the AP isn't canon. Or something like that (the whole stuff is on Kyuss's article in the wiki).
I believe the word you are looking for is 'apocryphal', which is 'official', but not quite canon.

The AP was written with GH in mind, however, they don't specifically name the main city 'Greyhawk' (but they do refer to it as 'the free city', which is Greyhawk's nickname). Also, they mention a few other GH locales, but a couple of them I think made it into GH maps retroactively (I can't be sure - Anna Meyer does an insanely good job with the GH maps, and they're on her maps, but she may have added them from the AP). Also, when they are talking about Mordenkainen (its definitely him - its even his home town, and describes his abode perfectly), they call him by another name. So even though the whole thing screams 'Greyhawk', they left it all just vague enough to have happened 'anywhere' (although as I've said, I wasn't happy with Eric's use of Daggerford, because of the changes necessary, so I use another settlement). I must say, Eric did a bang-up job of fitting it all in FR and having it make perfect sense, and there was also another conversion for Eberron, written by Keith Baker himself (that would be akin to Ed writing something for FR), and to be honest, it didn't fit nearly as well in EB as it does in FR (but once again, GH was ideal, for lots of reasons).

With the new (well, since 4e) mantra of 'one canon to rule them all' (actually, it was 'one rules to rule them all' in 4e), it makes sense that some of the neo-canon written for the conversion becomes actual canon. As I've stated, it looks to me that Eric had gotten his ideas for Jergal from writing that conversion material, and he kept it for the Realms, despite the rest being apocryphal. Or rather, Krash kept it for the Realms (I'm kinda confused about who started it - the first version I saw was in Eric's stuff he sent me).

As for the Worm that walks - I think that's just a different aspect of Kyuss. It may even be our FR aspect, originally, but now we've got the GH one. The ritual that created him (that went awry because Mellifleur and gods know who else interfered) probably had 'echoes' in the multiverse, as all things divine do, and we got an aspect. it just may be we've never seen him before (the likely candidates are maztica and maybe Chult, but he could have also been in The Hordelands, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Malatra, Anchormé, Osse, etc, etc (Selûne?) and we wouldn't have heard anything about him. Plus, who's going to be singing his praises? Worms? No-one listens to them. LOL

Elder Evils:
I think the Elder Evils are a bit random because the lore is all over the place, quite literally, both physically (all over the planes), and also temporally. We have some lore that the illithids are actually from the future, and they've come back to prevent something. We also have some very vague lore about humans being 'the Race of Destiny', and humans (Gith) were enslaved by illithids (and perhaps gave them psionics by accident). And BTW, I don't think the Gith are reptilian, but I do think the illithids did some major experimenting on them, and may have even infused them with a bit of yuan-ti blood (for whatever reason - perhaps they were hoping to enlist the Sarrukh in their agenda?) The Gith-Zerai look(ed) very human (they actually look like a race from one of the 3e handbooks - I think it began with a 'D', although when I just went looking for it, I noticed they've changed the way Gith-Zerai look immensely since 1e).

Anyhow, I'm losing my point, like usual - the Elder Evils might not be a 'now' thing, but because of their nature, and the nature of the universe itself (or rather, those things that fall outside of it, like The Far Realms), it is entirely possible to be fighting something that hasn't even been born yet... or ascended yet.

Imagine your just a regular dude, and a 'god' appears before you... accept its YOU. And you tell you that 'you can do this' - suddenly you're on the path to becoming a god. It sounds a bit wonky, but its a magical universe with access to the timestream (and idiot gods like Lathander... and stupid elves... making adjustments to the damn thing). Or do you think Mystra just happened to hide a piece of her divinity inside Midnight by accident? Heck, the Norse gods not only know when they are going to die, they know exactly how.

Which means it could have been Nihal (via the Far Realms, which sits 'outside of time') that actually told Nerull to support Kyuss' ascension to godhood. In other words, he was creating himself. Then something else stepped-in and had mellifleur steal most of the divinity, thwarting his plan, so 'Nihal' is not a stillborn god, but rather, an unborn one. And he wants to change that. Heavenly politics is both confusing and absurd, and the 'wheels within wheels' go so deep no god - no matter 'on high' they appear - is outside the machinations of others (including other - perhaps future - versions of themselves). Its amazing any of them stay sane... or do they?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 09:26:22
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  20:25:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was getting very tired last night (actually, early this morning), which I suppose was a good thing, because I had to curtail some of what I wanted to convey (so YEAH, that over-long post would have gotten MUCH worse LOL).

While typing all that, I had this idea for demipowers (this may have been better to put in the 'cosmological theories' thread) - what if the 'rules' for Godly immigration don't apply to demipowers? What if the cut-off is lesser god? Thus, ANY God (I am now using that word interchangeably with 'Powers') can create a neo-mortal aspect (one of those Mulan Manifestations/Incarnations) and send it to a world. Anything more powerful than that would require Ao's permission (and Ao might have that power over ALL crystal Spheres, since it seems his powers DO extend beyond Toril, but only in very specific circumstances). After that, the thing is on its own, and if it fails to establish a faith befoe it runs short on power, it just fizzles away (and the god who sent it {semi}permanently loses that level of DvR (not really, it heals, but slowly, like ability score damage on a human - I'm thinking something like a century, just so that there is a GOOD reason why gods do not do this lightly).

So why add that in? Because it would help explain A LOT. All these incursions by these lowly, wanna-be-gods, and yet actual, uber-poweful ancient gods like the Pharonics can't get in. Demipowers (exarchs) are single-plane (usually, but not always, Prime Material), single-Avatar creatures - they actually fit the bill of very powerful mortals more than they do true gods. This allows them to 'bypass security' and worm their way in. This is why archfiends (and even lesser fiends) can start cults on worlds, but guys like Asmodeus or Orcus have to actually get permission, or force their way in using other methods (like absorbing/subduing another god that already has said permission).

LOL - I just had a picture of Asmodeus showing up in The Fugue, and trying to enter Toril, and Ao stepping in front of him and saying, "You shall not pass!" And then Asmodeus says, "I identify as Azuth now".

"Oh... CRAP", says Ao, stepping aside.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 05:34:48
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  16:15:39  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I was getting very tired last night (actually, early this morning), which I suppose was a good thing, because I had to curtail some of what I wanted to convey (so YEAH, that over-long post would have gotten MUCH worse LOL).

While typing all that, I had this idea for demipowers (this may have been better to put in the 'cosmological theories' thread) - what if the 'rules' for Godly immigration don't apply to demipowers? What if the cut-off is lesser god? Thus, ANY God (I am now using that word interchangeably with 'Powers') can create a neo-mortal aspect (one of those Mulan Manifestations/Incarnations) and send it to a world. Anything more powerful than that would require Ao's permission (and Ao might have that power over ALL crystal Spheres, since it seems his powers DO extend beyond Toril, but only in very specific circumstances). After that, the thing is on its own, and if it fails to establish a faith befoe it runs short on power, it just fizzles away (and the god who sent it {semi}permanently loses that level of DvR (not really, it heals, but slowly, like ability score damage on a human - I'm thinking something like a century, just so that there is a GOOD reason why gods do not do this lightly).

So why add that in? Because it would help explain A LOT. All these incursions by these lowly, wanna-be-gods, and yet actual, uber-poweful ancient gods like the Pharonics can't get in. Demipowers (exarchs) are single-plane (usually, but not always, Prime Material), single-Avatar creatures - they actually fit the bill of very powerful mortals more than they do true gods. This allows them to 'bypass security' and worm their way in. This is why archfiends (and even lesser fiends) can start cults on worlds, but guys like Asmodeus or Orcus have to actually get permission, or force their way in using other methods (like absorbing/subduing another god that already has said permission).

LOL - I just had a picture of Asmodeus showing up in The Fugue, and trying to enter Toril, and Ao stepping in front of him and saying, "You shall not pass!" And then Asmodeus says, "I identify as Azuth now".

"Oh... CRAP", says Ao, stepping aside.



I think you maybe right about demigods. I loom at them as mortal, but not quite. They don't hold the power of the cosmos in their hands so they aren't held to the restrictions of higher gods. If a mortal wizard can travel between worlds then so could a demigod. It would be like Hercules moving between worlds.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  15:20:19  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  15:34:09  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, no. Kanchelsis also goes by Mastraacht. But still, what is all this new stuff regarding Kyuss?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  17:49:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember the mantra of 4e was "One rules to rule them all"?

5e's mantra seems to be, "One canon to rule them all".

There is no Forgotten Realms. Well... there is... but its no longer a setting unto itself. Its a piece - a MAJOR piece ('flagship', new 'Core', whatever) - of the D&D Setting.

Although they are not calling it that, nor are they calling it what it really is, because it would give people the wrong impression - its really all the Planescape setting, but with a focus on the Prime Material Worlds, rather than the planes themselves. FR is the primary focus of the setting, but is not THE setting itself. Just as in 4e Nerath was the actual setting, but the focus was on Nentir Vale. Thus, ALL canon is now FR canon by default, whether it takes place on Toril or not.

And blame that on 4e, not 5e. because a WHOLE 'NOTHER PLANET became 'Forgotten realms'. Even in earlier editions (2e_), things like Zakhara - on the same world - were still not considered 'The Realms'. 4e changed all that - I bought a 4e anthology (Realms of the Dead) that took place outside Faerûn - its the one story I didn't read because I obstinately refused to accept anything outside Faerûn as 'Realms'.

But it doesn't really matter how strongly you deny the truth about something... it will still be the truth. Thanks to Abeir, 'FR' now pertains to entire other planets. A planet not even really 'in' Realmspace.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:50:25
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  17:53:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And BTW, am I the only one that sees how this now opens the door for them to merge MtG worlds into D&D?

A planer focus - which seems to be the 'path' they are taking this year - means they will be able to merge their fanbases, and I am very happy about that. Most of MtG lore is very good, and the art is stunning, and it makes perfect sense for WotC to consolidate their brands (especially since the one brand has been clinging to life as a parasite of the other for a few years... but no longer).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:55:12
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  18:19:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.



Technically Mellifleur is an alias of Velsharoon according to Powers and Pantheons as well. I've posited theories on this, involving Velsharoon's ascension and using one of Mellifleur's phylacteries to do it following the ToT (with Mellifleur being very weakened after the ToT rules changes).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  08:51:11  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My personal viewpoint is that the designers just saw "Mellifleur" and slapped it in Velsharoon's entry. I have it that Death's Embrace is a shared realm: Mellifleur rules the necropolis-city of Hopelorn, while the Forsaken Crypt, a vast necromantic library-cum-laboratory is Velsharoon's domain. Both powers are heads of lich-cabals, both encourage transformation into undeath, and both are allies.

They also find Evening Glory to be really fricking creepy.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  08:54:04  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?



Kyuss is an Intermediate Power of vampires that lives in the Abyss, while Mellifleur is a Lesser Power of liches that dwells in Gehenna.

Kyuss being from Maztica one of the proposed methods of adapting the Age of Worms adventure path to the Realms. Canon Kyuss is an Oeridian deity and he started as a priest of Nerull before his ascension.
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Quickleaf
Seeker

99 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  07:37:58  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Is he though?

Kyuss is like 'the god born dead' to me. The original procedure/ritual that was supposed to turn him into a full god went awry (from what I understand, Mellifleur stole 'the juice') he's basically a still-born god, similar to that Atropal guy. So not quite mortal, but also, not quite a god. something stuck in-between. He is constantly still trying for full godhood, hence his schemes popping-up every now and then on different worlds.

If you make his Divine Realm actually be a Domain of Dread, its the perfect setup. He can even have his own island. In fact, make it inside the body of a giant, dead 'god' (a kraken-like creature of enormous proportions) - his digs will literally be a rotting corpse. And as I said, the Dark powers may have snatched him, and for once, things just didn't go their way - he still had a teensy-tiny bit of 'divinity', and that was enough to make him able to be able to make contact with the outside world (if not escape himself - he can send avatar-like manifestations through sometimes, and that's what PCs would encounter, but the 'real' kyuss will always still be trapped (so long as his planned are thwarted, that is).

Mistworms - odd , slimy little creatures that can literally bore through ANYTHING, including planer barriers, and even magical wards and fields, given enough time. Even the powerful 'veil' the Dark Powers have in place - impenetrable even by Gods* - can be gotten through by the mistworms. They exude a weird, anti-magical form of 'decay' that will even erode these powerful forces; not in their entirety, but just enough for the worms to slip trough. Kyuss can use these to make contact with his disciples - he implants 'orders' in the worm, and then the worm finds the people it needs to (I did mention they can literally create 'wormholes', right?), and burrow into the ear of the target underling. Of course, most of those 'blessed' with the words of Kyuss eventually die from having the thing inside their heads, eating away at their brains, but its a small price to pay to help your god, eh?


*Just had an odd, random thought - what if the 'Dark Powers' are/were Imaskari? They're the only other group I know they were able to build 'Godwalls'. But then again, its not like they were the types to kidnap people and entire cultures from worlds... WAIT A SECOND..



Once again, I am late to the conversation. :) Amazingly, your thoughts on incorporating Kyuss into Tomb of Annihilation are very similar to my own!

I'm thinking about making Kyuss the atropal. Which is isn't totally off base, as Kyuss is basically a failed god, right?

"Atropals are stillborn godlings who spontaneously rise as undead...When an atropal rises, the gods cringe, and seek to banish the horrid remnant by sealing it away in a separate cemetery plane or beneath the crypts of dead civilizations. (3e Epic Level Handbook)
"Atropals are unfinished godlings that had enough of a divine spark to rise as undead. A few atropals roam freely across the planes, while others are sealed away in separate realms or buried beneath the ruins of dead civilizations." (4e Monster Manual)
"An atropal is a ghastly, unfinished creation of an evil god, cast adrift and abandoned long ago." (5e Tomb of Annihilation)

In Age of Worms, Kyuss is portrayed as a demigod. In Elder Evils, he is portrayed as "neither mortal nor god - he was something far worse."

In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  09:08:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  14:31:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.
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Quickleaf
Seeker

99 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  16:54:42  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.



Hmm. Well, it's not a tidy classification system, but I think the 5e DMG offers some possible explanations about how a cleric worshipping a demigod might gain spells...

    [*]The demigod is worshipped as part of a pantheon.
    [*]The demigod is "worshipped" via a mystery cult, which emphasizes identifying with certain aspects of divinity, and seems to be connected to pantheon-worship.
    [*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres spirits as in animism.
    [*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres a force (e.g. entropy, life, knowledge) or a philosophy.


Finally, several creatures described as vestiges in previous editions would fit for a Warlock to treat as an otherworldly patron granting it magic.

With Kyuss' espousing a doctrine of "life is a fleeting illusion, the afterlife a lie, and undeath the only true path to immortality", I could definitely see Clerics revering Kyuss but deriving their spells from their belief in that philosophy. Or they could be Warlocks.

Edited by - Quickleaf on 07 Mar 2018 16:58:22
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Quickleaf
Seeker

99 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  17:03:08  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while investigating how to fit Kyuss into Tomb of Annihilation I stumbled upon this gem from the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (2001): http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Uluu_Thalongh ; if that doesn't evoke Kyuss thematically, I don't know what does!

The Uluu Thalongh was a terrifying monster of Chultan jungle legend.[1]
The Uluu Thalongh was an ancient, massive, intelligent, and baleful monster. Its actual appearance was not known—if it had a normal "form" at all. Instead, the Uluu manifested itself from "within" the trees and plants of the jungle, appearing as bulges and ripples as it moved along.[1]
The Uluu's approach usually came with a strange sound like that of atonal pipes. The Uluu's other manner of sound-making was far more terrifying. It had the ability to sting sentient prey with a sharp root and suck the hapless victim's innards out. With the empty husk that remained, the Uluu was able to control the body and speak through its lips. Using this method, the Uluu would often lure further victims into its clutches by imitating friends or pretending to be a traveler in need.[1]
When moving within the jungle plants, the Uluu could make any branch into a jawed tentacle that would snap and tear and kill until slaying all in a given area. Somehow, the Uluu could locate its prey with precision, even without any sort of eyes.[1]
If a possessed branch were severed from its plant, the Uluu would cease attacking, but it could never seem to be destroyed in this or any other manner, despite attempts by groups of wizards to set fire to large swaths of forest in hopes of killing the legendary beast.[1]
The name Uluu Thalongh was granted by a Chultan tribe long since gone extinct. The meaning of the term is equally forgotten.[1]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  01:06:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.


Yeah, I wouldn't count demipowers as quasi-powers, at least not mechanically. There are a few other unique or semi-unique things that could go into that category, like some of the acrhfiends (and arch-whatevers), Artopal(s), at least some of the Elder Evils, probably the Archomentals (just more 'arch-somethings'), etc.

The 'Elder Titans' (Empyreans) was a good call, though.

I would almost say its like a step between godhood and demigodhood, except demigods are more 'deity' than the Quasi's, so its almost like a 'side path' - same level power-wise (Exarch), but they kind of 'veered off the road to godhood', which means some of them could be quite a bit more powerful than exarchs (demipowers), but they are still not 'deities'. For example, Orcus could probably cream just about any demigod in a fight, so I'd give him 'Quasipower' status.

Its just a term for 'everything that does quite fit godhood but otherwise has that kind of power'. So Quasi's can be anywhere from demi- to greater power in levels of pure energy.

@Quickleaf - nice catch. That DOES indeed fit Kyuss nicely. Especially if you add-in my take that he cannot fully manifest in the Prime Material (because he is trapped elsewhere, whether you go with the Domains of Dread or not). Its more like he is a terrible, 'evil spirit', unless he can take control of a 'husk' (emptied body).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 01:08:25
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  12:25:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually Uluu Thalongh fit's perfectly with how Kyuus is presented in Eric L. Boyd's conversion - as Kyuus in the conversion is from Chult, specifically, he was originally from the Tabaxi:
quote:
Origins of Kyuss
After the collapse of the yuan-ti empire of
Mhairshaulk, the yuan-ti and their distant
cousins, the couatls, battled for control of
the Chultan peninsula. Around the time of
Netheril’s founding, the couatl population
declined precipitously, and they sought
another race to keep the western end of the
Chultan Peninsula free of yuan-ti influence.
Eventually the couatl settled on the human
tribes of a distant continent to the southwest
and preached to them the teachings of
Ubtao. Those tribes who accepted Ubtao’s
message (the most prominent of which were
the Eshowe, the Tabaxi, and the Thinguth)
followed the winged serpents in a great
pilgrimage across the seas to the Jungle of
Chult (Amedio Jungle) in –2,809 DR.
The tribes landed on the Wild Coast and
marched inland to the Peaks of Flame, where
the avatar of Ubtao welcomed them. After
all but a handful of the winged serpents
then withdrew from southwestern Faerûn,
the Father of Chult founded the great city of
Mezro (Sulm) in –2,637 dr and dwelt there
for a time among the Tabaxi, the greatest of
the tribes, while the other tribes scattered
throughout the jungles.
In the Year of Reverent Threnody (–653 dr),
a Tabaxi (Flan) named Kyuss and his followers
fled Mezro for the Chultengar, a dark region
on the eastern border of the Jungle of Chult.
There Kyuss founded the city of Kuluth-
Mar, based upon the worship of a six-armed
god of death named Jergal (Nerull).Afer his
followers found the plates that spoke of the
Age of Worms, Kyuss received the spellweaver
lich who gave him the gift of a single green
worm and built the Spire of Long Shadows.
Further details on the history of the
Chultan peninsula and the inhabitants of the
Chultengar are given in Serpent Kingdoms.


Indeed, the Jergal was also described as originating in Chult in the same conversion:
quote:
In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.


Kyuus, is there actually an avatar of sorts of Jergal, but separate, and it is explained why he can seem not fitting with Jergal to some:
quote:
According to myth (detailed in full in
Faiths & Avatars), Jergal grew bored of his
role as Lord of the Dead and voluntarily
divided his portfolios among Bane, Bhaal,
and Myrkul. The truth is rather more sinister.
Jergal harbored great ambitions to bring all
the Realms under his rule, including all
the other gods and even Ao, the Overgod.
However, Ao’s strictures prevented Jergal
from growing beyond the status of a greater
god, meaning that he could never force all the
other gods to bow down before his throne.
Undeterred, the Lord of the End of
Everything hit upon a plan that would allow
him to evade Ao’s strictures. First, Jergal set in
motion a series of prophecies that would mark
the beginning of the Age of Worms, including
inscribing a process on a set of bronze disks
by which an ambitious mortal (Kyuss) could
ascend to godhood. Second, Jergal embedded
three compulsions in his mind: give away
his portfolios to three gods and profess to be
bored with his role, consume those three gods
after all three had been reborn, and consume
the ascended mortal who followed the
process noted above. Lastly, Jergal extracted
all knowledge of his plan from his own mind,
other than the latent compulsions, and placed
it within the first green worm. Over time,
Jergal’s extracted knowledge was thereby
split among all the worms created by Kyuss.
This last step allowed the Lord of the End of
Everything to avoid Ao’s oversight, as Jergal
himself was thereafter unaware of his own
plan and no other single creature knew the
whole plan as well.

Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2018 12:29:33
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