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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  18:01:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed on keeping the 'Dark Powers' a secret. I just thought that Kyuss' odd status would throw them for a bit of a loop (and my 'fix' involving worms works rather well, if I do say so myself). I think of him as Exarch-level at best - if we use Divine Ranks, I'd say he was sitting at like DvR 5.9, and its driving him nuts.

I am so glad the Age of Worms AP came up here, because I am working on my own conversion. Not that Eric didn't do a bang-up job, and I still plan on using most of what he did (like the basic story-line changes, and his god-swaps), but I find that putting it in The North isn't really optimal, and Daggerford require a major lore revision to work properly (killing off the family line thats been running the place for centuries). The Spellweaver aspect-thingy that shows up in that AP you can see HERE. He's kinda cool, no? As I said, the way Eric tied Jergal to it all was pretty darn clever. If you can get your hands on that AP (and I found a copy of a pdf that someone put together from all the Dungeon and Dragon articles, and web-emhancements - its over 600 pages!), just mining it for Eric's conversion notes is a goldmine. Plus, its just a damn good adventure arc.

I plan to put it along the coast north of Chult, this way it ties in more easily to Paizo's other two AP's from that (pre-split) era - Savage Tide and Shackled City. I'm also planning a very limited update to 5e (no mechanics - just updating that region for 5e). 'The Free City' now becomes Almraiven (instead of Waterdeep), which is a much simpler conversion, because we know far less about Almraivan (and as I said, I am updating the city itself, including a new city map that will incorporate the necessary features lifted from Greyhawk). Diamond Lake becomes a nearby settlement on the edge of the mountains (thus, no conversion even necessary), and Alhaster just becomes yet another 'robber baron' realm within the Border Kingdoms - thematically, its a MUCH better fit than Starmantle. And once again, ZERO conversion is necessary (I just put it on the coast where the Tumblestone River empties into the Lake of Steam). For the other two APs, rather than doing 'swaps', I just placed Sasserine a hundred miles NW of Narubel in Chult (and everything else falls out perfectly). Except for some very light editing of Almraiven (which doesn't matter at all given its location, prior lore, and century time-skip), the whole thing (all three AP's) works beautifully as a romp around the Shining Sea... which coincidentally happens to fall-out between WotC's current project and the region Ed's working on (Lapaliiya).

Oh, and the 'Isle of Dread'. It fits nicely to the south of Thindol. Two ways to spin that - its either something that showed-up post Sundering (and with all the changes and new islands going on there that's no big deal), or we can keep it 'setting neutral' and say that its really in The Feywild, but it appears from time to time in that spot (and considering its been in BOTH Mystra and GH, that actually makes a ton of sense). Thus, the people who "just want to play the game" can be happy, as well as the grognards who insist, "not in MY Realms!" It absolutely works both ways. Heck, if you really want to throw your players for a loop, have it 'cycle' to another world while they are on it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2017 18:06:33
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  05:28:36  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
remember that Kyuss is a demipower. This means that he is a god that has a beginning - a formal mortal most likely - we just don't know the whole story.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  05:46:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

remember that Kyuss is a demipower. This means that he is a god that has a beginning - a formal mortal most likely - we just don't know the whole story.



He is a former mortal. Kyuss was a necromancer-priest of Nerull. The divine energy that went into his ascension was probably siphoned away by the wizard Mellifleur by total accident when he was undertaking the lichdom ritual, turning him into the god of liches. Kyuss did ascend, but as a quasipower going on demipower that remained stuck in an obelisk.

Nerull isn't exactly happy with either of them.

Edited by - LordofBones on 01 Jan 2018 05:49:28
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  06:02:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see odd that nobody has mentioned that Kyuss operated out of Maztica in both the adventure path and in the Elder Evils plot hook.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  10:39:10  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I see odd that nobody has mentioned that Kyuss operated out of Maztica in both the adventure path and in the Elder Evils plot hook.


Be more specific
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Mirtek
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  13:36:11  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.
Actually Vecna wa a demigod when he was captured. It was the boldest move the Dark Powers ever did and they could barely contain him. The second he ascended to lesser deityhood, he just broke out, the Dark Powers could hardly hold a demigod, the could not hold a full fledged lesser deity
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  17:03:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.
Actually Vecna wa a demigod when he was captured. It was the boldest move the Dark Powers ever did and they could barely contain him. The second he ascended to lesser deityhood, he just broke out, the Dark Powers could hardly hold a demigod, the could not hold a full fledged lesser deity
PRECISELY, which was my whole point with Kyuss. Except Kyuss didn't have the foundation (or notoriety/fame) that Vecna had/has, so he can't seem to ever 'catch a break' (get out of his 'Shadowfell prison' that I conjectured he is stuck in).

He can fume, and he can throw himself against its walls, but all he's managed to do is create little magical worms that can 'bore through' reality into other planes (in my Homebrew, that is). Of course, he might not even realize he's in the Shadowfell, if he is living inside a rotted, bloated corpse as I also theorized (I'm talking about a Kraken-like dead body at least the size of a city, and probably much larger). As far as he knows, he is still inside his own 'realm', but something has put a barrier around it. The only reason why I've suggested shunting him into the Shadowfell at all is that it makes it easier to digest the whole 'one canon to rule them all' thing we have going on now, since 4e.

And as an aside, I'd do the same with Erelhei-Cinlu at this point. Say it was settled from Toril's underdark (I had lore about that elsewhere - an ultra-orthodox priestess of Lolth led a group of her people away from Menzoberranzen into the Shadowdark, and they then found other 'paths' up and out into Greywhawk). Eventually, the 'old ways' back to Toril's Underdark were forgotten, or became unusable. I originally came up with this because of the whole 'Drow started on Toril' thing (which they DID), and also the odd mention of the GH city in an FR list of Drow cities (at one time, other Drow thought Erelhei-Cinlu was in Realmspace). Since 4e was kind enough to give us the Shadowdark, it all falls into place now.

You know, we tend to complain a LOT about lore from other D&D settings getting dumped into FR, but have you ever considered it from the point of view of fans of other D&D settings? FR stole much of their thunder. We literally stole Avariel and Arachnea from Mystara (OD&D). The ENTIRE D&D MULTIVERSE got realigned because of The Forgotten Realms. 4e was OUR FAULT (or rather, our favorite setting's fault... from an in-game perspective, that is).

So piss & moan about it all you want, but FR took a much bigger 'dump' on everyone else's setting than they did to ours. We are literally complaining that the toys we took from those other settings 'aren't good enough' for us. Thats like the guy who robbed your TV calling you up and complaining because it doesn't work very well. Think about that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 17:06:30
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  17:49:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I see odd that nobody has mentioned that Kyuss operated out of Maztica in both the adventure path and in the Elder Evils plot hook.


Be more specific



That Kyuss perhaps doesn't have a spot in both Faerunian history and pantheon because of the fact that he operated (or still operates) in Maztica. A place that Faerunians know little of. So, perhaps the intelligent undead of Faerun see unattractive Kyuss's religion, with so many gods for intelligent undead in Faerun. But you cannot say the same for the intelligent undead of Maztica. They have no alternatives in that matter.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  23:12:45  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah - well, you're the Columbian :P Guess you'd know better what they'd like than we :)
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Markustay
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Posted - 02 Jan 2018 :  07:20:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, Kyuss does fit an Aztec-like deity fairly well (they were all kinda gross). And Chult is like the 'red-headed stepchild' of Faerūn (it had its own pantheon... of ONE lol), so it too could have had god-like entities we are unaware of.

Heck, after the giant talking rodents in that novel, I'd believe anything about Chult.

Kyuss, Mellifleur, Vecna, Velsharoon, even Orcus, etc (and Kiaransalee, who might be tRQ?) - I'm kind of amazed there is room for so many undead gods... which is an oxymoron unto itself. Plus, why would undead be faithful to anything? Its not like they have an afterlife to worry about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2018 07:21:11
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  00:16:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  00:23:03  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the worshipers equals personal power thing never made much sense to me - it makes gods who are rough on worshipers make NO sense. Also, I've always had an issue with gods claiming souls after they kill a worshiper - unless you're the god of betrayal this is entirely counter to the whole notion of the FR system.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:03:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Ah - well, you're the Columbian :P Guess you'd know better what they'd like than we :)




Well, the pre-Columbian cultures of my country are totally different from those of the Mesoamericans (the ones Maztica draws inspiration from). The only well-known of those cultures of my country is the Muiscan, because of the legend of El Dorado (a legend that many people attributes to other cultures, I may add). Muiscans had more in common with the Incans than with the Aztecs or Mayans.

But, on topic, my point is that Kyuss doesn't figure in the history of the Realms, even if he is a god (or would-be god, or whatever), because the history of the Realms we know is mostly from the point of view of Faerūn (and mostly, from the point of view of Elminster), and so, a power that operates in another continent, one that is mostly unknown for the Faerunians (just "discovered" in the 1350s or so; and people from Faerun only had a few decades exploring Maztica before the land was transported to another world for a hundred years), would be also unknown for us the players.

So, my point was mostly an answer to this:

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Thanks for the info. The only problem I'm having is the fact that he hasn't been mentioned in Realm's past, with good reason. Someone like Kyuss would have stood out had he not beem shoe horned into the Realms by the current edition. This is why just throwing anything into the Realms doesn't fit.



He was not mentioned in Faerun's past because he was not operating in Faerun. His turf was unknown Maztica (from the Faerunian, and therefore ours, point of view).

And also, I also think Kyuss feels a little bit Aztec...

Now, addressing other stuff in this posts

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Kyuss is pretty much a joke, though. Nerull doesn't like him much, and the power that usurped his ascension is much more powerful than he is. The other powers of undeath have much more to offer prospective worshippers than he does. Kyuss is not a patron of sentient undead; his creations are mindess, slavering things sent to rend and slaughter the living. Sentient undead, when they bother to worship anything at all, turn towards the evil deities of their living days or to the patrons of their respective kinds (i.e. Kiaransalee, Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, Velsharoon).



I don't think Kyuss is a joke. Or, more accurately, that he will remain a joke. Is highly implied that Kyuss is related to Nihal, an Elder Evil from the Far Realm that is related with the Eldest (one of the Aboleth's Elder Gods). In fact, some presume that Nihal is in fact an "evolution" of Kyuss in the far future.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 01:08:44
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:21:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's only if you believe that Kyuss is a Far Realm Elder Evil. Which he isn't, seeing as how he was a priest of Nerull. 4e radically retcons or rewrites the histories of several deities; Kyuss has nothing to do with the Far Realm other than possibly being a patsy of a Far Realm deity. He's the patron of creepy worm-like undead; his creations, while gross, aren't the rejections of reality like the Far Realms.

If I had to tie Kyuss to an Elder Evil, it would be Mak Thuum Ngatha.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  01:44:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't the sourcebook "Elder Evils" a 3.5 book? (one of the last books, but still 3.5e). Because it is that book that says Kyuss was an Elder Evil. Well, not exactly Kyuss, but the "Worm that Walks", that was born from Kyuss's demise.

Although, yes, the relationship between Kyuss and Nihal was something they brought in 4e (near the end of the edition, IIRC).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 01:45:41
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  02:31:36  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "Worm that Walks" in EE is sort of an alternate Kyuss apparently. Kyuss shows in the Age of Worms with full stats, and he's much stronger than the EE version. EE also neglects to mention Kyuss's other minions like his pet dracolich, so I wouldn't exactly count it as canon as far as the Age of Worms is concerned, especially since one of the campaign points is that a well of many worlds mixed with a sphere of annihilation erases the Prime Material Plane.

The Elder Evils book also claims that Zargon was an Ancient Baatorian and could not be slain by the gods (He's not a Baatorian, and he's only CR 16; the Baatorians vanished long before the baatezu showed up and Zargon was just a 1e boss monster that was hyped up in EE), and that at least one obyrith lord is an Elder Evil. The Elder Evils book is full of questionable canonicity, and it looks like several inexperienced authors got together to make it.

Basically, I'd take anything EE says with a pinch of salt.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  03:09:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But isn't the "Age of Worm" incanonical for the Realms, as well? I mean, the author said that the AP isn't canon. Or something like that (the whole stuff is on Kyuss's article in the wiki).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  06:37:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are rules to adapt the AoW into Faerun and Eberron, but the path itself isn't canon to the Forgotten Realms. Kyuss is a Greyhawk god. The sum of Kyuss's influence in the Realms is in that blurb about adapting the AoW in the Realms. As far as canon is concerned (up to the end of 3.5e), the Age of Worms takes place in Oerth.
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  09:19:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't the "Age of Worm" incanonical for the Realms, as well? I mean, the author said that the AP isn't canon. Or something like that (the whole stuff is on Kyuss's article in the wiki).
I believe the word you are looking for is 'apocryphal', which is 'official', but not quite canon.

The AP was written with GH in mind, however, they don't specifically name the main city 'Greyhawk' (but they do refer to it as 'the free city', which is Greyhawk's nickname). Also, they mention a few other GH locales, but a couple of them I think made it into GH maps retroactively (I can't be sure - Anna Meyer does an insanely good job with the GH maps, and they're on her maps, but she may have added them from the AP). Also, when they are talking about Mordenkainen (its definitely him - its even his home town, and describes his abode perfectly), they call him by another name. So even though the whole thing screams 'Greyhawk', they left it all just vague enough to have happened 'anywhere' (although as I've said, I wasn't happy with Eric's use of Daggerford, because of the changes necessary, so I use another settlement). I must say, Eric did a bang-up job of fitting it all in FR and having it make perfect sense, and there was also another conversion for Eberron, written by Keith Baker himself (that would be akin to Ed writing something for FR), and to be honest, it didn't fit nearly as well in EB as it does in FR (but once again, GH was ideal, for lots of reasons).

With the new (well, since 4e) mantra of 'one canon to rule them all' (actually, it was 'one rules to rule them all' in 4e), it makes sense that some of the neo-canon written for the conversion becomes actual canon. As I've stated, it looks to me that Eric had gotten his ideas for Jergal from writing that conversion material, and he kept it for the Realms, despite the rest being apocryphal. Or rather, Krash kept it for the Realms (I'm kinda confused about who started it - the first version I saw was in Eric's stuff he sent me).

As for the Worm that walks - I think that's just a different aspect of Kyuss. It may even be our FR aspect, originally, but now we've got the GH one. The ritual that created him (that went awry because Mellifleur and gods know who else interfered) probably had 'echoes' in the multiverse, as all things divine do, and we got an aspect. it just may be we've never seen him before (the likely candidates are maztica and maybe Chult, but he could have also been in The Hordelands, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Malatra, Anchormé, Osse, etc, etc (Selūne?) and we wouldn't have heard anything about him. Plus, who's going to be singing his praises? Worms? No-one listens to them. LOL

Elder Evils:
I think the Elder Evils are a bit random because the lore is all over the place, quite literally, both physically (all over the planes), and also temporally. We have some lore that the illithids are actually from the future, and they've come back to prevent something. We also have some very vague lore about humans being 'the Race of Destiny', and humans (Gith) were enslaved by illithids (and perhaps gave them psionics by accident). And BTW, I don't think the Gith are reptilian, but I do think the illithids did some major experimenting on them, and may have even infused them with a bit of yuan-ti blood (for whatever reason - perhaps they were hoping to enlist the Sarrukh in their agenda?) The Gith-Zerai look(ed) very human (they actually look like a race from one of the 3e handbooks - I think it began with a 'D', although when I just went looking for it, I noticed they've changed the way Gith-Zerai look immensely since 1e).

Anyhow, I'm losing my point, like usual - the Elder Evils might not be a 'now' thing, but because of their nature, and the nature of the universe itself (or rather, those things that fall outside of it, like The Far Realms), it is entirely possible to be fighting something that hasn't even been born yet... or ascended yet.

Imagine your just a regular dude, and a 'god' appears before you... accept its YOU. And you tell you that 'you can do this' - suddenly you're on the path to becoming a god. It sounds a bit wonky, but its a magical universe with access to the timestream (and idiot gods like Lathander... and stupid elves... making adjustments to the damn thing). Or do you think Mystra just happened to hide a piece of her divinity inside Midnight by accident? Heck, the Norse gods not only know when they are going to die, they know exactly how.

Which means it could have been Nihal (via the Far Realms, which sits 'outside of time') that actually told Nerull to support Kyuss' ascension to godhood. In other words, he was creating himself. Then something else stepped-in and had mellifleur steal most of the divinity, thwarting his plan, so 'Nihal' is not a stillborn god, but rather, an unborn one. And he wants to change that. Heavenly politics is both confusing and absurd, and the 'wheels within wheels' go so deep no god - no matter 'on high' they appear - is outside the machinations of others (including other - perhaps future - versions of themselves). Its amazing any of them stay sane... or do they?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 09:26:22
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  20:25:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was getting very tired last night (actually, early this morning), which I suppose was a good thing, because I had to curtail some of what I wanted to convey (so YEAH, that over-long post would have gotten MUCH worse LOL).

While typing all that, I had this idea for demipowers (this may have been better to put in the 'cosmological theories' thread) - what if the 'rules' for Godly immigration don't apply to demipowers? What if the cut-off is lesser god? Thus, ANY God (I am now using that word interchangeably with 'Powers') can create a neo-mortal aspect (one of those Mulan Manifestations/Incarnations) and send it to a world. Anything more powerful than that would require Ao's permission (and Ao might have that power over ALL crystal Spheres, since it seems his powers DO extend beyond Toril, but only in very specific circumstances). After that, the thing is on its own, and if it fails to establish a faith befoe it runs short on power, it just fizzles away (and the god who sent it {semi}permanently loses that level of DvR (not really, it heals, but slowly, like ability score damage on a human - I'm thinking something like a century, just so that there is a GOOD reason why gods do not do this lightly).

So why add that in? Because it would help explain A LOT. All these incursions by these lowly, wanna-be-gods, and yet actual, uber-poweful ancient gods like the Pharonics can't get in. Demipowers (exarchs) are single-plane (usually, but not always, Prime Material), single-Avatar creatures - they actually fit the bill of very powerful mortals more than they do true gods. This allows them to 'bypass security' and worm their way in. This is why archfiends (and even lesser fiends) can start cults on worlds, but guys like Asmodeus or Orcus have to actually get permission, or force their way in using other methods (like absorbing/subduing another god that already has said permission).

LOL - I just had a picture of Asmodeus showing up in The Fugue, and trying to enter Toril, and Ao stepping in front of him and saying, "You shall not pass!" And then Asmodeus says, "I identify as Azuth now".

"Oh... CRAP", says Ao, stepping aside.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 05:34:48
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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  16:15:39  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I was getting very tired last night (actually, early this morning), which I suppose was a good thing, because I had to curtail some of what I wanted to convey (so YEAH, that over-long post would have gotten MUCH worse LOL).

While typing all that, I had this idea for demipowers (this may have been better to put in the 'cosmological theories' thread) - what if the 'rules' for Godly immigration don't apply to demipowers? What if the cut-off is lesser god? Thus, ANY God (I am now using that word interchangeably with 'Powers') can create a neo-mortal aspect (one of those Mulan Manifestations/Incarnations) and send it to a world. Anything more powerful than that would require Ao's permission (and Ao might have that power over ALL crystal Spheres, since it seems his powers DO extend beyond Toril, but only in very specific circumstances). After that, the thing is on its own, and if it fails to establish a faith befoe it runs short on power, it just fizzles away (and the god who sent it {semi}permanently loses that level of DvR (not really, it heals, but slowly, like ability score damage on a human - I'm thinking something like a century, just so that there is a GOOD reason why gods do not do this lightly).

So why add that in? Because it would help explain A LOT. All these incursions by these lowly, wanna-be-gods, and yet actual, uber-poweful ancient gods like the Pharonics can't get in. Demipowers (exarchs) are single-plane (usually, but not always, Prime Material), single-Avatar creatures - they actually fit the bill of very powerful mortals more than they do true gods. This allows them to 'bypass security' and worm their way in. This is why archfiends (and even lesser fiends) can start cults on worlds, but guys like Asmodeus or Orcus have to actually get permission, or force their way in using other methods (like absorbing/subduing another god that already has said permission).

LOL - I just had a picture of Asmodeus showing up in The Fugue, and trying to enter Toril, and Ao stepping in front of him and saying, "You shall not pass!" And then Asmodeus says, "I identify as Azuth now".

"Oh... CRAP", says Ao, stepping aside.



I think you maybe right about demigods. I loom at them as mortal, but not quite. They don't hold the power of the cosmos in their hands so they aren't held to the restrictions of higher gods. If a mortal wizard can travel between worlds then so could a demigod. It would be like Hercules moving between worlds.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1946 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  15:20:19  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1946 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  15:34:09  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, no. Kanchelsis also goes by Mastraacht. But still, what is all this new stuff regarding Kyuss?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  17:49:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember the mantra of 4e was "One rules to rule them all"?

5e's mantra seems to be, "One canon to rule them all".

There is no Forgotten Realms. Well... there is... but its no longer a setting unto itself. Its a piece - a MAJOR piece ('flagship', new 'Core', whatever) - of the D&D Setting.

Although they are not calling it that, nor are they calling it what it really is, because it would give people the wrong impression - its really all the Planescape setting, but with a focus on the Prime Material Worlds, rather than the planes themselves. FR is the primary focus of the setting, but is not THE setting itself. Just as in 4e Nerath was the actual setting, but the focus was on Nentir Vale. Thus, ALL canon is now FR canon by default, whether it takes place on Toril or not.

And blame that on 4e, not 5e. because a WHOLE 'NOTHER PLANET became 'Forgotten realms'. Even in earlier editions (2e_), things like Zakhara - on the same world - were still not considered 'The Realms'. 4e changed all that - I bought a 4e anthology (Realms of the Dead) that took place outside Faerūn - its the one story I didn't read because I obstinately refused to accept anything outside Faerūn as 'Realms'.

But it doesn't really matter how strongly you deny the truth about something... it will still be the truth. Thanks to Abeir, 'FR' now pertains to entire other planets. A planet not even really 'in' Realmspace.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:50:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  17:53:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And BTW, am I the only one that sees how this now opens the door for them to merge MtG worlds into D&D?

A planer focus - which seems to be the 'path' they are taking this year - means they will be able to merge their fanbases, and I am very happy about that. Most of MtG lore is very good, and the art is stunning, and it makes perfect sense for WotC to consolidate their brands (especially since the one brand has been clinging to life as a parasite of the other for a few years... but no longer).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:55:12
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