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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 08:30:27
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The history-changing was something new added in 3e, but I recall a fairly vivid description of the cataclysmic destruction that ensued. maybe LEoF?
The one thing you have to watch out for with Elaine's Evermeet novel is that certain things are repeated at different times in the book - this threw me back when I used to have these arguments with Lord Karsus on the WotC bards. After the story-part about them casting the spell and creating evermeet, at a later point in the book they paint a 'broad strokes' image of it, and somewhere either in that part (its the part where they say K'narlast died - for a 'main character' tt was weird that she killed him off, 'of camera' like that), or in another source, they specifically say 'entire groups of people were erased as if they had never been'. Maybe I missed something in GHotR... (just checked - Eric's vingette does say something along those lines, about it being 'torn from the sword coast', but then it goes on to say what I quoted above (so he was repeating the 'known' story, and then changing it). From the -17600 DR entry from the same book -
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On the Day of Birthing, the magic reaches its apex as the spell extends both back and forward in the mists of time. Faerūn, the one land, is sundered apart by the unbridled force of the Sundering. As a result, hundreds of cities are washed away, thousands of elves lie dead, and the face of Toril is changed forever. The name Faerūn, no longer the One Land, is given to the largest continent. Surrounded by vast expanses of water, the island of Evermeet, thought to be a piece of Arvandor and a bridge between worlds, breaks the surface of the Trackless Sea.
It repeats the part where time/history was altered, but it also says the continent of Faerūn (the prehistoric super-continent Brian James has named Merrouroboros) became Sundered at that time, creating all the smaller land masses. However, this is where I first started saying that the Elven Sundering 'tapped into' Ao's Sundering, so that they were one-and-the-same. The Elves didn't sunder the world, Ao did, and the Elven High Magic ritual merely shaped a piece of the unimaginable forces at play to create Evermeet for themselves... in the past. So the Elves get blamed for it, but they didn't Sunder anything. They merely profited by molding certain aspects of it. This means Evermeet should have been created at the same time as Abeir (which would also explain the super-continent getting ripped apart - parts went to Abeir).
As I've said before I think Fey Magic - and therefor Elven High Magic - relies heavily upon the Butterfly effect to achieve its desired results. Its almost like the ultimate form of genie (wish) magic. The spell doesn't know better - if you don't word things perfectly it will take the easiest path to fulfill your request (in this case, finding the Sundering in the past and latching unto it).
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From Elaine's Evermeet novel -
"With her heightened senses, Starleaf felt the agony of the land as tremor after tremor ripped through it. She saw the one land of Faerun sundered, and vast portions of it swept away, tearing again and again as they went to leave scatterings of islands upon the once-pristine ocean. She saw the destruction of great cities, the collapse of mountain ranges into the sea, the flooding tides that swept away terrified People and creatures on a hundred newborn shores. All this she saw, for at this moment Starleaf was utterly one with the Weave."
It also mentions a wee bit later how Ka'Narlist was killed in the destruction, his capitol city was dumped into the sea (and the description seems to paint as something on-par with Waterdeep), and much of the Ilythiir homeland and people lie in ruin. So, ummmm... I guess the dark Elves had no real reason to hate on the Fairy Elves, eh? Nothing wrong with a little mass-murder, especially for the Seldarine. Oh, and Ka'narlist was Lolth's consort at the time. Her ex helped murder her new BF. How nice.
But, as I said, and most especially now 'in hindsight', we can blame most of what happened on Ao, and not the Elves and their Gods. Ao was stupid enough to leave a 'nuke' lying around for the kiddies to get their hands on.
But all this research has brought me back around to an old theory I had back when 4e was first released (one that most people didn't care for, because the wound was still so fresh) - Evermeet was never really in Toril at all. It says, right in everything I just reread, that it was a 'piece of Arvandor' brought onto Toril. When Corellon speaks to Starleaf, he states that its "a piece of Arvandor that now exists in both worlds". What the Sundering did was create an island - a 'blank' island that the elves could rewrite. A slice of Arvandor was 'over written' onto that island (the real island was hidden 'beneath' this dimensional layer). Thus, Evermeet was nothing more than an overly large 'Gate town' to Arvandor. The whole island was a damn gate - Evermeet (as we know it) didn't really exist in/on Toril. And when the Spellplague hit, what happened? Evermeet 'popped' back to Arvandor (or the Feywild, IIRC, which is why I think it was connected to Tintageer), and all we were left with was that barren island - the only truly physical (in reamspace) part of Evermeet. All that really happened there is that the gate closed. Fey were always masters of illusion, and RW folklore tell of 'disappearing island realms' - Evermeet was little more than a brilliant illusion; a 'painted backdrop' (of Avandor) placed over a desolate island.
Which actually makes a TON of sense, considering the wards around the place. Lolth, Malar, Umberlee, etc... weren't trying to break into an island, they were literally trying to enter another plane with a godwall in place. Its not really a 'force field', its a GATE, with rules. And being an 'elf' is the key to use it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 20:32:26 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 10:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The history-changing was something new added in 3e, but I recall a fairly vivid description of the cataclysmic destruction that ensued. maybe LEoF?
The one thing you have to watch out for with Elaine's Evermeet novel is that certain things are repated at different times in the book - this threw me back when I used to have these arguments with Lord Karsus on the WotC bards. After the story-part about them casting the spell and creating evermeet, at a later point in the book they paint a 'broad strokes' image of it, and somewhere either in that part (its the part where they say K'narlast died - for a 'main character' tt was weird that she killed him off,
That novel has a lot of things like that because it was basically an anthology intended to explain huge swaths of the past present and future of the Realms.
The reason for this I'd wager was the time it was written and published (1999) was the transition time between TSR and WoTC. Big changes were already planned. The new more detailed extended timeline was probably already written, or at least gamed out. The stories were just an attempt to make it all make sense. In general, I'd say that it was the most fluid of all the transitions they've made since then, and Evermeet had a lot to do with that.
Centered on 2nd Ed. heroes experiencing the shift to 3rd E events and wrapping it all up in historical context with a history that was never there before.
It was a monumental ask and I still can't believe how well Elaine did with it almost 20 years later. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 20:02:50
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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[quote]Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, they have retconned the origin of the elves for 5e. Corellon is even more a @#$ than before, and I guess one can understand the elves as children without a parental guide to look up to. Lolth is now somewhat good, in this new origin, as well...
Interesting video, but this isn't a new origin story. It's been around as long as I can remember (elves springing from Corellon's blood). I also fail to see how this makes Corellon an @$$. Less ambitious than Lolth, perhaps, who wanted to "spread the might of the elves", but not a jerk. Also, as Irennan pointed out, the banishment of Lolth had nothing to do with the drow (who weren't even drow at that point) "turning evil". It had to do with her betrayal of the Seldarine.
Also, this would explain the elves' superior viewpoint. I mean, they came from the blood a god, which means they have a spark of divinity in them, and are connected to their deity in a way other races aren't. I'm not saying it gives them an excuse, but it does explain it.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 05 Jan 2018 20:03:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 20:53:32
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Going with the 'broader strokes' approach here, there really isn't any such thing as 'good' or 'evil'. They are concepts based in morality, and morality is completely determined by culture. They are artificial constructs. Asmodeus isn't even evil - he is RIGHT. He did what the Gods didn't have the b*lls to do.
Thus, whatever the Seldarine do is something decided upon by inconceivably powerful beings of a completely alien nature. It's a wonder the elves are as 'sane' (by human standards) as they are. Their actions are only viewed as 'evil' by those they've negatively impacted. The same goes for anyone else - there are plenty of folks who have considered the actions of 'good' Gods to be evil. Seriously, what character class has always been thought to be the biggest douche in D&D? Paladins!
Paladin: "Hey! That stuff you're doing there? You're doing it wrong!"
Peasant: "What? Who says? I've been doing this thing this way for years!"
Paladin: "My god says its wrong, therefor, IT IS WRONG."
Peasant: "But what if a different god said to do it differently?"
Paladin: "Then that God would also be wrong."
Peasant: "But YOURS wouldn't?"
Paladin: "NOPE - my god is infallible."
Peasant: "So what if I keep doing it my way?"
Paladin: "Well, now that I've 'enlightened' you about the proper way to do things, I would have to beat you silly for being evil".
Peasant: "Hmmmmm... that doesn't sound very... nevermind. I'll do it you way." {until the next holyjerk comes along and tells me something different}
The Seldarine - like every single other group - divine or otherwise - does what they do acting in their own best self-interest. There really is no such thing as 'altruism' - it is an illusion (or a delusion). What is religion? It is the promise of a reward for obeying the rules laid out in a book (a book written by mortals, BTW). It doesn't matter that D&D's Gods are 'real'; the end result is the same. Everyone has an agenda, and even if that agenda appears to be 'good', that's just you basing it off of your own moral compass. Once you take the 'reward' out of the equation (even Mother Teresa thought she'd be rewarded), why would people even follow a religion? Its a scam. There are NO 'good gods'. This is why I stopped hating on Corellon and the Seldarine a while back. They all have self-interest at the core of their being. ALL OF THEM. Do you see a single one with just "Help Everyone" in their portfolio?
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The reason for this I'd wager was the time it was written and published (1999) was the transition time between TSR and WoTC. Big changes were already planned. The new more detailed extended timeline was probably already written, or at least gamed out. The stories were just an attempt to make it all make sense. In general, I'd say that it was the most fluid of all the transitions they've made since then, and Evermeet had a lot to do with that.
Centered on 2nd Ed. heroes experiencing the shift to 3rd E events and wrapping it all up in historical context with a history that was never there before.
It was a monumental task and I still can't believe how well Elaine did with it almost 20 years later.
I concur - its a brilliant piece of work. I think its the only Realms book I've read at least three times. A couple of plot-points are starting to show their age, but that is not Ealine's fault. Retcons screwed some stuff up. Heck, she even made connections to the IEN (SJ) palatable. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 20:57:47 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:16:47
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There are some concepts of good and evil that are universal (or near) among cultures, tho. For example, unconditionally helping someone who's in danger will rarely be seen as evil. SImilarly, murdering someone for petty, selfish, or random reasons is almost never going to be seen as good. Some things you just can't chalk up to "it's their culture". If someone's culture involves treating life as a thing without (or with little) value, then it's going to be seen as evil by most standards (and yes, it does tell a lot about certain aspects of our modern culture). Perhaps evil is not the right word, tho, cruel/selfish/ruthless or what you have should be used in its place.
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The Seldarine - like every single other group - divine or otherwise - does what they do acting in their own best self-interest. There really is no such thing as 'altruism' - it is an illusion (or a delusion). What is religion? It is the promise of a reward for obeying the rules laid out in a book (a book written by mortals, BTW). It doesn't matter that D&D's Gods are 'real'; the end result is the same. Everyone has an agenda, and even if that agenda appears to be 'good', that's just you basing it off of your own moral compass. Once you take the 'reward' out of the equation (even Mother Teresa thought she'd be rewarded), why would people even follow a religion? Its a scam. There are NO 'good gods'. This is why I stopped hating on Corellon and the Seldarine a while back. They all have self-interest at the core of their being. ALL OF THEM. Do you see a single one with just "Help Everyone" in their portfolio?
Not in their portfolio, but Torm and Eilistraee sure come to mind.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jan 2018 21:20:42 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:30:23
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From my point of view, at least, it is a change. Because they had this wonderful article in Dragon 362 explaining the origins of the eladrin, (wood) elves and dark elves (later drow) in 4e. And in that article, those elves (the first, undivided elven race) was born from Corellon tears, not blood. He/she/whatever sheet those tears the first time he/she arrived at the Feeywild And either way before or way later Gruumsh fought Corellon.
In that article, the drow (dark elves renamed after siding with Lolth) indeed fought against Corellon's elves in the Kinstrife War (the war of the elves). So, perhaps in the Realms the drow didn't took part in Corellon's and Lolth's struggle. But in the rest of the multiverse? Because that video is about the origins of the elves in the whole D&D multiverse, not just in the Realms.
As for Corellon itself, it makes it worse because the fact that it abandoned its children to their own devises just because they were unwanted. That devolved in the smutty, petty elves of today, because of the irresponsibility of Corellon. That explains a lot of its current demeanor, as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jan 2018 21:31:37 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
From my point of view, at least, it is a change. Because they had this wonderful article in Dragon 362 explaining the origins of the eladrin, (wood) elves and dark elves (later drow) in 4e. And in that article, those elves (the first, undivided elven race) was born from Corellon tears, not blood. He/she/whatever sheet those tears the first time he/she arrived at the Feeywild And either way before or way later Gruumsh fought Corellon.
In that article, the drow (dark elves renamed after siding with Lolth) indeed fought against Corellon's elves in the Kinstrife War (the war of the elves). So, perhaps in the Realms the drow didn't took part in Corellon's and Lolth's struggle. But in the rest of the multiverse? Because that video is about the origins of the elves in the whole D&D multiverse, not just in the Realms.
The generic D&D story of the elves is that they were born from Corellon's blood and Sehanine's tears. In generic D&D, the drow did indeed support Lolth (the Realms have always been different in that regard). I guess 4e did the retcon first, but it was a very small one. I mean, this is of very little relevance: it's a creation myth, there's going to be countless versions of it, and even tho there are these differences, the essence of what happened is still the same. Be it Corellon's blood or tears, the point is that he isn't their father or creator.
quote:
As for Corellon itself, it makes it worse because the fact that it abandoned its children to their own devises just because they were unwanted. That devolved in the smutty, petty elves of today, because of the irresponsibility of Corellon. That explains a lot of its current demeanor, as well.
Personally, I see what you're saying, but I don't really agree. IRL people have always gone forward without any scheme imposed from above, so saying that the elves developed their attitude because of Corellon seems a stretch to me. Corellon may have let them free to create their path, but he didn't withdraw and become absent in this version. He gave them his teachings, they could still worship him (and the rest of the Seldarine), and I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't deny his help to an elf in need. So, why would he be worse in this version? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:49:07
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| I presume that is in the Races of Wild book? I need to get that book. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jan 2018 21:52:13 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:50:04
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In some cases, it was Corellon's blood and tears, in others it was Corellon's blood and Sehanine's tears, or just Corellon's blood. Either way, it gives the elves a connection to their deity, as they were born from the fluid of a god, be it blood or tears. And Corellon never withdrew from his people. Yeah, it seems that he was a lax parent, but he (and other members of the Seldarine) *did* step in when things got dire. The Elven Court was created at the behest of Corellon, to prevent a repeat of the CW.
In the Last Mythal trilogy, it is stated that the Seldarine are their for the People (elves), but they also want them to learn and grow their own way.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:12:55
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I like it to be Corellon's tears, and Orcs came from Gruumsh's blood. Its just more poetic,/inspiring/iconic that way.
Corellon professes to be the ultimate liberal (most elves do - its part of their hubris), when, in fact, Gruumsh is the true liberal. You don't get much more liberal than total anarchy. Whereas Elves tend toward stratified, complex social groups (and forget the elves of Krynn - what little I read, they're bigoted even against each other!)
Elves: "I LOVE nature! Weeeeeee!" {proceeds to cause untold massive swaths of planetary death & destruction on an unimaginable scale)
Say one thing, do another.... {sigh}
And is 'natural selection' evil?
Because, if something is stupid enough to fall into a pond, I'm supposed to just let it drown. Am I evil... or sensible? At what point does 'being good' negatively impact the future of your race? What if destroying another race is necessary for your race's survival? Which decision is 'evil'? 'Self-Preservation' is hard-wired into all lifeforms (lemmings not withstanding LOL). Is a mother cat evil when it kills one of its deformed young? At what point does our intellect get in the way of survival?
And BTW, I am NOT trying to pick-at RW issues here - I am playing 'devils advocate', because I truly hate the whole B&W good vs evil thing we've had in D&D for years. I believe in a meritocracy, where everyone has the right to sit at my table, if they've earned it. No-one gets to sit there just by being born in a certain place, or in a certain way. I think when humans finally do meet alien species, we're in for an eye-opening (and perhaps awful) surprise. If they are 'better than us', do they then not have the right to destroy us and take our stuff? Aren't those the rules WE live by? Isn't this EXACTLY what happens in D&D, every session? Why isn't the ogre entitled to the treasure in his pockets, but YOU are?
Just some things to think about. Most races we call 'monsters' are just living by primal, animal instincts. A lion or shark that eats a human is not evil, so why is a dragon? Because we can talk to it? Why does that make any difference at all? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 23:14:58 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:20:59
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But Forgotten Realms is the setting of Black and White D&D. Some say that it would be Greyhawk, but really, since the novels started to be a thing, FR became one as well. They tried to change that in 4e... and well, do you know what happened. They did it the wrong way, but people also refused change. So, 5e returned the Realms to the well loved but really boring B&W.
If you want to play in a Grey and Gray D&D, try Eberron or Nentir Vale.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jan 2018 23:21:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But Forgotten Realms is the setting of Black and White D&D. Some say that it would be Greyhawk, but really, since the novels started to be a thing, FR became one as well. They tried to change that in 4e... and well, do you know what happened. They did it the wrong way, but people also refused change. So, 5e returned the Realms to the well loved but really boring B&W.
If you want to play in a Grey and Gray D&D, try Eberron or Nentir Vale.
Why do you say that? FR certainly is High Fantasy, but it has never been Black&White. You have clear-cut good guys and cartoonish villains, true, but you also have a lot of nuance in commonly evil races (like drow and orcs), and even the "good" races can do unsavory things (like we see in this thread). The Realms have always meant to be nuanced by Ed (even tho his version was grittier than the published one). 4e (I mean 4e FR, dunno about Nentir Vale or other settings) actually tried of do away with some of that nuance (with the drow, for example). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:39:10
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| Can't imagine how you'd think "black and white" D&D is boring. And the settings you cite are the two most varied settings in all of roleplay. You can fit damn near anything into GH or FR because that is how they were originally designed by two of the original designers of D&D. Really the only thing Nentir Vale did was make death irreversible but leads to players being too careful all the time - and soooo boring; everything else was just a version of Greyhawk. All Eberron really did was make things more steampunk - I guess if you have a hot cosplaying female or two that can be more interesting, but otherwise its meh in my opinion. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And is 'natural selection' evil?
Because, if something is stupid enough to fall into a pond, I'm supposed to just let it drown. Am I evil... or sensible? At what point does 'being good' negatively impact the future of your race?
Natural selection is a process, asking if it is evil would be akin to asking if--say--convection is evil. If you see someone falling and you don't even try to help them, then yes, that's cruel and it might even be sadistic. It has nothing to do with Natural selection, because all that that individual might be lacking in dexterity, they might have in cleverness, creativity, or whatever. In short, natural selection is not an excuse for being a d***. Humans are a prime example of that. Natrual selection is much more complex than that, and the survival and the good of a species comes from a variety of qualities (even something as trivial as having a longer neck might count): if we were to off anyone who is lacking in one of those, then we might as well off everyone on this planet.
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What if destroying another race is necessary for your race's survival? Which decision is 'evil'? 'Self-Preservation' is hard-wired into all lifeforms (lemmings not withstanding LOL). Is a mother cat evil when it kills one of its deformed young? At what point does our intellect get in the way of survival?
See my point above for the cat. As for the destroying another race for one's survival, if total annhiliation is *truly* needed, then it's self-defense. It obviously isn't evil. Returning on topic, it certainly isn't what I was talking about when I said that there are certain concepts that are nearly universally good/evil. The elves being willing to sacrifice (or, since Wooly corrected me, being willing to put on the line) countless lives (including their own numbers) just to get their paradise, is a borderline example of not giving much value to life, and it is IMO a quite ruthless and cruel act.
quote:
And BTW, I am NOT trying to pick-at RW issues here - I am playing 'devils advocate', because I truly hate the whole B&W good vs evil thing we've had in D&D for years. I believe in a meritocracy, where everyone has the right to sit at my table, if they've earned it. No-one gets to sit there just by being born in a certain place, or in a certain way. I think when humans finally do meet alien species, we're in for an eye-opening (and perhaps awful) surprise. If they are 'better than us', do they then not have the right to destroy us and take our stuff? Aren't those the rules WE live by? Isn't this EXACTLY what happens in D&D, every session? Why isn't the ogre entitled to the treasure in his pockets, but YOU are?
[quote]Just some things to think about. Most races we call 'monsters' are just living by primal, animal instincts. A lion or shark that eats a human is not evil, so why is a dragon? Because we can talk to it? Why does that make any difference at all?
Obviously they aren't evil for trying to feed themselves. The difference is in what dragons do aside from feeding themselves. And yes, that would make what many people do evil as well, since (for example) livestock is essentially tortured in our world to maximize profit. That's an evil act, there's no going over it. It's cruel, unnecessary, and twisted. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jan 2018 23:59:45 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:00:19
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Because Black and White is a point view that doesn't really exists. What you may consider "bad" other people can consider it "good". So, painting all in "those are the good guys, and those are the evil guys" is kinda boring, because is the perspective of just one people. At least IHMO.
Eberron and NV can be pastiche D&D settings in stuff like races or places (but basically, their premise is that if something exist in a D&D world, it does exist in those worlds as wellthat is good, IHMO, because it allows you to design the world as you want), but their point of view is definitely different. Good and evil in these settings depends on perspective, not in absolutes.
For an example, a dragon in Faerūn is color coded. If chromatic is irredeemably evil, if metallic is the goodest of the good. In Eberron, a dragon can be evil or good because of what she believes, not because of the color of her scales. I find more interesting the latter approach, than "this dragon is evil because is chromatic". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Jan 2018 00:02:41 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
For an example, a dragon in Faerūn is color coded. If chromatic is irredeemably evil, if metallic is the goodest of the good. In Eberron, a dragon can be evil or good because of what she believes, not because of the color of her scales. I find more interesting the latter approach, than "this dragon is evil because is chromatic".
While I agree with you that it is more interesting, in the Realms chromatic dragons can be something other than evil. There was a red dragon raised by the elves in Myth Drannor who ended up being good. It all depends on context. But really, if you ask Ed, or read his answers, you'll see that his NPCs really have a lot of variety, and are moved by personal reasons rather than absolutes. The publisher's presentation of the Realms really hasn't been the best in this regard, tho. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:10:26
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| Even in the cases where it is good vs evil (must destroy the dark lord), the characters themselves aren't black-and-white. The "heroes" have their flaws/doubts, etc. Some are more "gray" than others, and there have been some FR novels (especially the earliest ones) where good and evil seem pretty cut and dry, but FR as a whole isn't B&W. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 Jan 2018 00:12:10 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But really, if you ask Ed, or read his answers, you'll see that his NPCs really have a lot of variety, and are moved by personal reasons rather than absolutes. The publisher's presentation of the Realms really hasn't been the best in this regard, tho.
Yeah, I've read Ed's ideas for the Realms (in the Questions scrolls), and I prefer those over what it ended published in the sourcebooks and novels. That's why I said that the B&W stuff became a thing with the novels. Because the novels implied they implemented a metaplot for the Realms, that perhaps was something that wasn't planed by Ed (as he once said, he lost all the rights to do what he wanted with the Realms when he sold the IP to TSR).
But, it was the metaplot that also ruined Dark Sun, so... I guess the blame can be place to whatever editorial philosophy they had for D&D in the 80's. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:21:33
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You'll note that Ed - and by extension the Forgotten Realms - NEVER stuck to the formula of 'a certain color' = evil (or good). HIS dragons are ALL 'shades of grey'. One of Elminster's best friends is a truly ancient red dragon (and it lives in space now).
Anyhow, I just watched that video (lul-TH? REALLY?) and I found it disturbing. They are almost giving Gruumsh 'fatherhood' and Lolth 'motherhood' over the Elves, and casting Corellong as some sort of uncaring d-bag. Not that I don't think he is, but I think so for entirely different reasons. LOL
I've never looked at him as 'indifferent' - thats a new one on me.
Also, they continually use the word 'Elves' when they mean Eladrin/Fey. Elves came after. Its confusing. Is this a shift back to pre-4e lore now? This waffling is giving me a headache. Eladrin = 'The Fey Creator Race" (what we used to guess were LeShay). THOSE would be 'of the blood of Corellon'.
Hey... maybe we can have our cake and eat it too! What if the Blood of Corellon is the Fey/Eladrin (created when Gruumsh 'mortally' wounded him... but then he was healed by those goddesses), and at the end of the battle he weeps for all that was lost (so this would be immediately following the Gods War, NOT the Dawn War), and he creates the 'lesser' elves? That could work!
One has his 'blood' - his fury and his passion. The other has his sadness. Kind of symbolic, no? Gruumsh only has the orcs, formed from HIS blood (when Corellon took out his eye). Gruumsh did not weep - there is but one type of Orc (maybe goblins formed where he peed?) 
There's also a myth about two dragons fighting, and the two different (main) groups of dragons coming forth from the blood of that battle as well (Thus I still contend that ALL Gods are really these 'primal cosmic Dragons' from the myths).
We've come along way from 'coloration = temperament' type thinking of the 60's and 70's. I think if D&D was created whole-cloth today, it would be a very different looking game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 00:23:04 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You'll note that Ed - and by extension the Forgotten Realms - NEVER stuck to the formula of 'a certain color' = evil (or good). HIS dragons are ALL 'shades of grey'. One of Elminster's best friends is a truly ancient red dragon (and it lives in space now).
Anyhow, I just watched that video (lul-TH? REALLY?) and I found it disturbing. They are almost giving Gruumsh 'fatherhood' and Lolth 'motherhood' over the Elves, and casting Corellong as some sort of uncaring d-bag. Not that I don't think he is, but I think so for entirely different reasons. LOL
I've never looked at him as 'indifferent' - thats a new one on me.
I didn't get the impression he was indifferent, nor did I get the impression they were giving Gruumsh "fatherhood". I mean, I guess you could look at it that way, since he stabbed Corellon, but it was Corellon's blood that made the elves (or eladrin). But from what they were saying, I didn't take it to mean he was indifferent, just perhaps not as ambitious as Lolth when it came to "showing the might of the elves" to the world.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 Jan 2018 00:48:35 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:42:36
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| I think that the part where they cast Corellon as uncaring (well, he has been at times) and indifferent is Lolth's PoV, not an absolute truth. Basically, their point is that Lolth wanted the elves to "conquer the world" (TM), but Corellon didn't care about the elves becoming dominant, so she saw him as indifferent. Or that's what I got from the video when I watched it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:47:58
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| ^That is kind of what I thought, which is why I said less ambitious than Lolth. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 03:36:39
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On the one hand, I find it loathsome that I am picturing a 'Seldarine dinner', and someone mentions "the elves killed a million people again", and Corellon is like, "Really? Pass the potatoes, please".
While on the other hand, we are talking about an ANCIENT being, older than the current (rendition of the) universe itself. A being who was there before the Lattice of Heaven was created, let alone cast down. Before the Gods and Dawn Wars, etc, etc... and before "mortals were in a twinkle in anyone's eye" (if these beings even had eyes... oh wait... Gruumsh used to ). Beings to whom primordials were 'cousins', and lesser beings that WE would count as 'gods' were mere playthings to them. Beings that existed before the concepts of Good & Evil, Law & Chaos even existed. Probably before the planes, and most definitely before the Crystal Spheres. Beings so vastly removed from mortals that mortals would be less than gnats are to us... so why would they care at all? Why should they? What if we/I found out tomorrow that every single atom is its own solar system, and there are entire civilizations on the neutrons, but every time I lean my arm on my desk (as I am doing now) I destroy uncountable billions of worlds... should I stop? Would I? How am I suppose to feel about things so insignificant to me? Should I just stop existing, because my very existence endangers their existence? There are quintillions of them, and just one of me. But I'm more important, right?
Its a really tough moral question. On the one hand, I don't like Corellon, and I think Lolth is right. But on the other, I totally get (and perhaps even respect) Corellon's ambivalence. Those mortals? They'll be dead before he blinks, either way, so why care at all? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 03:39:00 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 04:48:29
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I honestly think Corellon cares about his people. That has been stated numerous times in canon (read just about any description of Corellon). He just isn't as "present" as say, Mystra, or even Lolth. But elven religion/spirituality is deeply rooted in their culture. The Seldarine are a big part of their lives (and remember that the elves are connected to Corellon because of his blood and/or tears).
I don't remember the exact phrasing, and I am not going to go digging for it, but I remember in the Last Mythal (as I mentioned earlier) that the Seldarine listen to the People, but they also encourage them to grow as individuals and as a race.
Several sourcebooks state that Corellon and other members of the Seldarine take an active role in the lives of the elves (using this as an all-encompassing term for simplicity's sake), but we don't really see that in the novels, other than Evermeet, or in canon events, other than historical ones like the CW and the first Sundering. Usually, when huge "godly" events happen (ToT and second Sundering), the focus is mostly on the "human" gods, give or take a few exceptions. Or, if it is pantheon specific, like Lolth's Silence and the events following.
All the entries about Corellon describe him as benevolent and actively involved, but we don't see a lot of that in the novels and events, again, other than historically speaking (which had its own disastrous results, and why I think Corellon has taken a quieter stance). Yes, I wish he were more involved sometimes, but it also keeps him out of trouble when the next RSE comes along . Unless, of course, the event shakes up all the pantheon.
I will always be his devout . Someone here has to be LOL. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 08:07:44
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In general the Seldarine are disregarded by the novels. Blame the writers not the elvy-goddies.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 14:57:18
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Core 4e Corellon was unaligned, while FR 4e remained good aligned, so they had to tweak the creation myths to create some design space to differentiate the two. So they took Elaines/Ed FR Descent of the Drow story of the Seldarine and ran with it into the Core D&D's direction of a more moral ambiguous, detached Corellon; I guess a new direction they try to play up according the words of Mike Mearls.
What I like from this direction is that Corellon has given his children a lot of leeway, and is sometimes blind of the power his followers are capable of. What he tries to instill in them is wisdom, as he guards their cultural beauty so as they don't fall into their power trips constantly, like Lolth would have loved. Lolth sees the potential of elves and wants them to create an empire of chaos, Corellon wants them to be chaotic and free.
I then like to add his aspect of growing wise civilizations that create beautiful wonders for their kin, so that that beauty inspires others to build even more or larger sanctuaries for freedom. A single masterly crafted song, statue or spell can inspire and change the lives of other sentients for good, and they can last for eons uplifting future souls to new heights.
He still is an ancient Fey wargod who fought Giants (Fomorians) during the times when most worlds were being created from the Primal Elements. His acts of bravery (the elven form where outsmarting or maneuvering the enemy is seen as honorable) wandering the multiverse in many guises slaying enemies of Seelie Court is actually the very reason he reached apotheosis. So he will insist his race to apply the tactics he learned against his enemies, hence the reason why all elves are trained in the art of war (learning a religious form of mystical archery and swordplay and upholding honor in combat).
After he helped other Seelie achieve the same he created the Seldarine, they became very active in carving out defensive buffer zones for Titania and Oberon. The Seldarine were so succesful they conquered parts of Jotunheim and began to create Arvandor. The apotheosis of her Seelie knights made Titania lose interest, as Archfey had (and still have) a certain disdain for the newly arrived gods on the Multiversal stage, being dependent on mortal worship and subverting the reincarnation of souls in the Wheel of Life. So she placed him in the outer circle of her Seelie Court, after his creations started worshiping him.
In general I am very interested in the Mythic Age of D&D, when the primes were in the process of being seeded with life, a very high magic environment when words and actions could more easily shape realities. The stories of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin all are potentially brilliant archetype characters that would make for an interesting movie. Corellon is a real pain to oppose, as he is fond of tricking enemies into their own demise and has the patience and experience to outsmart opponents. Gruumsh is cunning and power-hungry, fond of breaking the tools of the foe and building engines of destruction with them. Moradin is industrious and tenacious, and makes or breaks foundations. Perhaps in future D&D movies we might get a glimpse of the creation story in an epic exposition sequence.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the one hand, I find it loathsome that I am picturing a 'Seldarine dinner', and someone mentions "the elves killed a million people again", and Corellon is like, "Really? Pass the potatoes, please".
While on the other hand, we are talking about an ANCIENT being, older than the current (rendition of the) universe itself. A being who was there before the Lattice of Heaven was created, let alone cast down. Before the Gods and Dawn Wars, etc, etc... and before "mortals were in a twinkle in anyone's eye" (if these beings even had eyes... oh wait... Gruumsh used to ). Beings to whom primordials were 'cousins', and lesser beings that WE would count as 'gods' were mere playthings to them. Beings that existed before the concepts of Good & Evil, Law & Chaos even existed. Probably before the planes, and most definitely before the Crystal Spheres. Beings so vastly removed from mortals that mortals would be less than gnats are to us... so why would they care at all? Why should they? What if we/I found out tomorrow that every single atom is its own solar system, and there are entire civilizations on the neutrons, but every time I lean my arm on my desk (as I am doing now) I destroy uncountable billions of worlds... should I stop? Would I? How am I suppose to feel about things so insignificant to me? Should I just stop existing, because my very existence endangers their existence? There are quintillions of them, and just one of me. But I'm more important, right?
Its a really tough moral question. On the one hand, I don't like Corellon, and I think Lolth is right. But on the other, I totally get (and perhaps even respect) Corellon's ambivalence. Those mortals? They'll be dead before he blinks, either way, so why care at all?
What you're describing is not really the case for the gods. In your example, we wouldn't be able to avoid damaging those micro-civilizations. Our own existence means the end of theirs, because everything we do is bound to destroy them. For the gods, however, there's no such thing.
As for your latter point, I'd give it to you if Corellon actually didn't care. However he does care, because as soon as he saw that a part of the dark elves had started worshiping Lolth, he switfly punished *all* of them, including the innocents, including the followers of Eilistraee (who had just been decimated, and who were part of a nation who had been attacked by the elves). So, if mortals were truly insignificant to him, why would he react as if they had struck a nerve? That means that he either cares about being worshiped by the elves, or he's just petty enough to punish a whole people that he doesn't care about, because a part of them was worshiping his rival. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jan 2018 16:38:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 17:37:13
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True, and that maybe bothers me even more.
"I don't care about you. I don't care what you do. I won't waste any time on yo... wait a second. Are you guys worshiping my Ex?! An endless eternity of horror I curse you with!"
Yeah... it was EXACTLY like that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:37:42 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 20:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The one thing you have to watch out for with Elaine's Evermeet novel is that certain things are repeated at different times in the book - this threw me back when I used to have these arguments with Lord Karsus on the WotC bards. After the story-part about them casting the spell and creating evermeet, at a later point in the book they paint a 'broad strokes' image of it, and somewhere either in that part (its the part where they say K'narlast died - for a 'main character' tt was weird that she killed him off, 'of camera' like that), or in another source, they specifically say 'entire groups of people were erased as if they had never been'.
-Good stuff: http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/Wotc/2015/ForgottenRealms/1863731.htm
-A side note, that "reached backwards and forwards in time" thing about the Sundering, that was added in during the 3e/4e transition with AGHotR and left open- with 5e somehow explaining it but not. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Jan 2018 20:23:27 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 03:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Core 4e Corellon was unaligned, while FR 4e remained good aligned, so they had to tweak the creation myths to create some design space to differentiate the two. So they took Elaines/Ed FR Descent of the Drow story of the Seldarine and ran with it into the Core D&D's direction of a more moral ambiguous, detached Corellon; I guess a new direction they try to play up according the words of Mike Mearls.
What I like from this direction is that Corellon has given his children a lot of leeway, and is sometimes blind of the power his followers are capable of. What he tries to instill in them is wisdom, as he guards their cultural beauty so as they don't fall into their power trips constantly, like Lolth would have loved. Lolth sees the potential of elves and wants them to create an empire of chaos, Corellon wants them to be chaotic and free.
I then like to add his aspect of growing wise civilizations that create beautiful wonders for their kin, so that that beauty inspires others to build even more or larger sanctuaries for freedom. A single masterly crafted song, statue or spell can inspire and change the lives of other sentients for good, and they can last for eons uplifting future souls to new heights.
This. Well said. Corellon isn't detached, but he encourages the elves to grow and discover. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 07 Jan 2018 03:58:04 |
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Why Correlon is a #@^%*!
