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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:06:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I just truly love how many folks have jumped on the "Corellon isn't as holier than thou as he portrays himself" bandwagon... and how elves are just as petty in his image.

That being said, I do like elves, and I think their culture IS beautiful... but that being said, I think it would be interesting to explore for a minute.... What kind of screwed up things have the elitist elves done in FR that would paint them as villains in other's minds if they just weren't so pretty. So, with that, I open up the floor.

Oh, and IF I have overstepped my bounds here Wooly or Sage, do feel free to shut this down. I truly was just curious to see WHAT people view as all the wrongs done. That being said, I'll throw out the first ball.

They slaughtered a large portion of the human population (and their own sea elf cousins) by creating a Tidal Wave that pounded Jhaamdath.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:08:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and one ground rule. I understand that some people will come here with "interpretations" of events. If something isn't STRICTLY canon, Please, if you will, notate that as homebrew.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:49:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't the elves have this supremacist racist group called Eldreth Veluuthra? (hope I got it right)

That said, I can see the King Killer Star as the most despicable way to destroy another civilization, regardless if it was that of potential predators. I mean, not all dragons are evil destroyer of humanoids (supposedly metallic dragons are good, yet they paid alongside the chromatics for the elves pettyness). They way magic cursed dragons (making them killing even their own relatives and children) was plain cruel.

Then we have the Sundering.

—Hey, lets create the perfect elven home!
*Faerūn gets destroyed*
—Ooops... We didn't do it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Dec 2017 21:50:24
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Kentinal
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4341 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:50:41  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well not sure it is canon that Corellon portrays himself holier, however clearly he achieved leadership of the Fey religion. The claim of head of other deities does deserve recognition (The claim indeed recognized by other Elven deities).

As to errors of Judgement clearly how he dealt with his ex-wife comes to mind. Though the editions a cast down minor deity, was reduced to a minor demon, then allowed to grow in power to a major deity.

This error of course of not watching over the known danger to himself clearly was to his own failings or the intervention of powers greater the AO.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  22:21:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elves are beautiful. And smart. And talented, etc.

The fault lies in them knowing that, and expecting everyone else to simply accept their superiority. There is nothing inherently evil about being better than everyone else, but there is in acting like it. They are mostly 'closet racists' ("why, some of my best friends are humans.."). They would not even be able to recognize the racism in themselves, that's how insidious such things are. They feel they are magnanimous (after all, they choose to interact with us 'lesser folk' - how very nice of them, eh?)

And they mirror Corellon - he is the ultimate god of hubris. He feels everyone should always listen to HIM because he is always right (and even if that's true, its still an incredibly irritating personality quirk). There are evil gods (anarchists) who are more about 'free will' than Corellon is. In fact, today's political climate is a very good reflection of how the elves behave: "I think THIS, therefor, if you do not agree with me on THIS, then you must be a bad person". Its pretty narrow-minded (and unintelligent) approach to things.

And BTW, if anyone got in the least bit insulted by that, then I have to ask, "why do you think that pertained to YOU?" if you are right in your beliefs, than that couldn't be you, could it? And if you need to know, I am actually saying that about ALL SIDES - the world has become so galvanized that they can't even recognize when their side is wrong about something. But being the anarchist I am, I'll just sit back and watch it all blow up.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2017 02:12:54
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  22:24:20  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-It's not the Elves' fault that other races are below them. Everyone else just needs to step up their game and become more Elf-like.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
480 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  01:05:50  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My elf on a shelf is finally leaving town in a few days. I can’t wait. That little jerk keeps ending up in the worst places, and I swear I’ve seen him with a different Barbie every day.

^homebrew!^

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Edited by - Seethyr on 23 Dec 2017 01:06:22
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  01:20:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even setting aside the massive amount of deaths that the elves caused (for very selfish reasons at times, see: the creation of Evermeet), Corellon is basically elven Zeus.

The way he punished Arauhsnee was unnecessarily cruel and extremely unpractical (you can't even use his "love" to justify the fact that he didn't simply kill her. You don't turn your loved ones into giant spiders and then send them in a horrible place, among horrible beings that are only waiting to tear them apart).

Personal reasons probably played a role in the banishment of the drow (their situation was very similar to that of the sun elves--just swap the Vyshaan with the nobles and the Sethomiir, and Malkzid with Wendonai--yet they were cursed as a whole. That also was extremely heavy-handed, misguided, and ended up giving the drow to the evil gods of the Dark Seldarine, given that Eilistraee had been rendered a non-factor by the extermination of her people). Not to mention his total indifference towards his daughter and her efforts in the modern era.

Don't get me wrong, that makes him a quite interesting deity, but still not as good as you'd believe.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Dec 2017 01:29:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  02:16:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-It's not the Elves' fault that other races are below them. Everyone else just needs to step up their game and become more Elf-like.
LMAO - thats the (capitalist) spirit!

I don't care what they say about you, Karsus, you'd have made a fine elf.

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

My elf on a shelf is finally leaving town in a few days. I can’t wait. That little jerk keeps ending up in the worst places, and I swear I’ve seen him with a different Barbie every day.
You think that's bad? My Elf on a Shelf is so damn sexy my GI Joe is starting to identify as a Barbie.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  00:57:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

My elf on a shelf is finally leaving town in a few days. I can’t wait. That little jerk keeps ending up in the worst places, and I swear I’ve seen him with a different Barbie every day.

^homebrew!^



LOL, well, if you had the choice of a new Barbie every day....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31149 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  04:13:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I, personally, don't think elves are evil or petty or any of that. I think their biggest failing is that they think themselves wiser than they really are... So they decide to undertake a course of action, convinced that their wisdom and power will keep it limited in scope to a very specific end goal. And then, it turns out they weren't as wise and powerful as they thought, and it blows up in their face.

And then, centuries or millennia later, they find themselves in the same situation... And THIS time, we'll get it right. Those elves of the past were weak and foolish; we'll never make their mistakes. In fact, since we're doing something different, we CAN'T make the same mistake!

BOOM!

....Oops.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Dec 2017 04:14:25
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  05:11:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some elves are petty. Sun elves, for instance. Their whole personality trait is that everyone is beneath them, even other elves (not sun). Then we have those that are outright evil, like the drow (they are elves, despite Corellon and his followers's claims).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2207 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  05:18:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
egotistical maniacs those elves of the FR. not really evil aligned, not really good at thinking either.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

708 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  05:52:39  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's canon that Corellon is well aware of his own hubris and ego, and does feel ashamed over it. IIRC, he elevated a hero-deity at one point (or a hero, I don't have Monster Mythology with me) because he felt ashamed over how he'd treated the guy.

The drow have none of my sympathy, however. They exist because apparently D&D needs Dark Eldar. I don't find Lolth very interesting either; she and Tiamat are painfully overdone.
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
426 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  07:28:17  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Elves, in just about ANY kind of myth lore and legend, have always been portrayed as a "fair" and beautiful race. They have beauty and brains as well. Attractive and smart.

Let's realize that psychologically, people that are keenly AWARE that they are gorgeous and intellectually superior to everyone else…… have a good chance of becoming confident.

Which leads to over-confidence.
Which often leads to arrogance and cockiness.
Which often leads to outright elitism and bigotry towards those "beneath them".

Hence, the psychological tendency to be a bunch of bigoted a-holes is there. Does that mean that every (D&D) elf is an outright arrogant A-hole? Of course not.

But again, there is a psychological precedence for it. And rightly so, should not surprise us that the same (arrogant, bigoted, over-confident, elitist) mentality would manifest among the Elven rulers, Elven heroes, Elven demigods, and Elven deities.


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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

708 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  10:59:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's be fair, D&D elves are based on Tolkien's elves, and sneering elitism isn't exactly a trademark of Tolkien's elves. Feanor wasn't a bigot, but he was a douchebag that had a crapton of issues that were only exacerbated when Morgoth shanked his dad. Celebrimbor was proud, but Sauron played him like a fiddle.

I mean, in the ur-example of the elves we all know and love, they weren't exactly bigots towards humans and those 'beneath them'. As late as the Third Age, Glorfindel aided Earnur in challenging Angmar and overthrowing the Lord of the Nazgul.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2978 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  15:36:42  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The People vs The Not People. Need I say more...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 25 Dec 2017 15:37:49
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31149 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  16:19:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While there are sneering elitists and bigots among the elves, I'd say that those elves are the minority, not the majority.

I think the more prominent elven attitude is not so much that other races are beneath them, it's that elves are adults and those other races are children. Adults don't actively look down on children; they just know that they've got more experience and wisdom with kids, and that in general, they know better than the kids do what's best for them.

Remember, elves do have good reason to be stuck on themselves: they're one of the oldest races; they were blessed with extreme longevity; on average, even an ugly elf is more fair than a human; they've got innate abilities other races don't have; and magic flows thru them in a way no other race can even understand.

Given that they were one of the first races in the Realms, and how elves are barely entering adulthood when a similarly-aged human is old and grey, it's only natural for them to see themselves in a paternal role.

Sure, they've still made some epic blunders, but in general, their hearts are in the right place.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
115 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  21:10:42  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

It's canon that Corellon is well aware of his own hubris and ego, and does feel ashamed over it. IIRC, he elevated a hero-deity at one point (or a hero, I don't have Monster Mythology with me) because he felt ashamed over how he'd treated the guy.




The hero was Lafarallinn.

page 26 in 2e Monster Mythology.

Not an actual deity, but can appear as an avatar of sorts, to guide adventurers.


My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 25 Dec 2017 21:21:09
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  23:12:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

The People vs The Not People. Need I say more...



Very insightful... yes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  23:32:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

The People vs The Not People. Need I say more...



Summarizes all that's wrong with the elves quite well, and it explains their actions. It actually makes them closer to the Eldar in WH40k--they would sacrifice entire human worlds just to save a handful of their people. Sounds pretty much what the Elves did when they summoned Evermeet on Toril.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 25 Dec 2017 23:32:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31149 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  01:14:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

The People vs The Not People. Need I say more...



Summarizes all that's wrong with the elves quite well, and it explains their actions. It actually makes them closer to the Eldar in WH40k--they would sacrifice entire human worlds just to save a handful of their people. Sounds pretty much what the Elves did when they summoned Evermeet on Toril.



Except they weren't trying to harm anyone; their summoning had far more of an impact than they expected. So it was, again, them being extremely short-sighted. They did not know what was going to happen and ignore it; they were caught off-guard.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  01:24:22  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

The People vs The Not People. Need I say more...



Summarizes all that's wrong with the elves quite well, and it explains their actions. It actually makes them closer to the Eldar in WH40k--they would sacrifice entire human worlds just to save a handful of their people. Sounds pretty much what the Elves did when they summoned Evermeet on Toril.



Except they weren't trying to harm anyone; their summoning had far more of an impact than they expected. So it was, again, them being extremely short-sighted. They did not know what was going to happen and ignore it; they were caught off-guard.



I could swear that the mages were aware of the consequences in "Evermeet", that they were warned and deliberately chose to ignore those warnings. Maybe I'm recalling it incorrectly, tho.

That said, when your magic is going to tear a continent apart, it doesn't take a genius to foresee the consequences.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Dec 2017 01:29:57
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  21:30:58  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I could swear that the mages were aware of the consequences in "Evermeet", that they were warned and deliberately chose to ignore those warnings. Maybe I'm recalling it incorrectly, tho.

That said, when your magic is going to tear a continent apart, it doesn't take a genius to foresee the consequences.


-Yes and no. A lot of scholars, magicians, and Elven leaders were against it because Tingateer was destroyed from the casting of a High Magic ritual and they were concerned that casting another High Magic ritual on Faerun could have a similar catastrophic ending. It did, and it didn't.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
691 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2017 :  21:51:11  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In all fairness, they are right about most other races, especially humans. They are asked to reign it in while humans ravage the land like locusts.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1639 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  05:18:03  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our classics?
The question is - will this outdo the Corellon Must Die or How many genocides were committed by Elves in FR? threads?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

While there are sneering elitists and bigots among the elves, I'd say that those elves are the minority, not the majority.

Majority is not suicidally stupid about it. This doesn't indicate they aren't full of themselves at all - just that they are no more delusional than they can live with.
quote:
I think the more prominent elven attitude is not so much that other races are beneath them, it's that elves are adults and those other races are children.
Adults don't actively look down on children; they just know that they've got more experience and wisdom with kids, and that in general, they know better than the kids do what's best for them.

May depend on which elves.
The "wild" elves are are one thing, (mostly-)townies another, their nobles are a very different group.
The ones sitting on a pile of near-artifacts and scrying on the entertaining human rustics (while hobgoblins wander closer and closer), probably "children" or "clumsy upstarts".
For an average bunch of forest elves, humans other than nearby villagers may be mostly incomprehensible, due to scale and complexity of organisation of the social/economic/political environment in which these humans exist.
quote:
Remember, elves do have good reason to be stuck on themselves: they're one of the oldest races; they were blessed with extreme longevity; on average, even an ugly elf is more fair than a human; they've got innate abilities other races don't have; and magic flows thru them in a way no other race can even understand.

The dragons outdo them on each of these points, however.
And some others were hanging around longer - Aarakocra, for one.
quote:
Sure, they've still made some epic blunders, but in general, their hearts are in the right place.

Their brains definitely aren't.
Except for the drow - but, well, drow...

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 29 Dec 2017 05:20:02
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