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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1071 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  22:28:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't Markustay had a theory for this? Like, all the gods are in fact architypes and their current forms just lesser embodiments powering mortal vessels or manifesting on their own in the mortal realm?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  03:11:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I do indeed harp on that, but most of my ideas - and definitely that one - stem from old D&D lore, so its not so much homebrew theory as it is applying some old (core) lore across the board now, now that D&D has become one huge setting.

In the very first issue of Dragon Magazine there was an article about how all the D&D setting were 'reflections' of each other, but if there was ever an 'original', its now lost. It was written by Garrison Ernst (a Nom De Plume of Gary Gygax) - this is where I get some of my theories on the 'Shattered First World' (although some First/True World stuff comes from other sources as well).

The 'Archtypes' stuff harkens back to 1e AD&D - I believe some of it was discussed in the Deities & Demigods tome, but it may have been elsewhere. It was used specifically in context with the non-human pantheons, which were ALL multispheric in nature (seems that only humans have a habit of creating 'local gods'). Basically, all worlds might have a Corellon, but it isn't exactly the same Corellon. Just as the worlds themselves (see above), each have their own 'imperfect reflections' of the others. The archtypes are the dudes (and dudettes) that hang-out in the Outer Planes, in the Great Wheel, and in their own realms. Aspects of an archtype (and a single world can have many different aspects for a single archtype) hang in their local cosmology; in the case of FR, it would be the Great Tree. Now, does that mean GH worships that REAL versions of the Gods? No, because GH's 'Great Wheel' is NOT the same one in Planescape - it GH's local cosmology... which is connected to the real Great Wheel and the archtypes. Nearly all local cosmologies are linked directly to the True Great Wheel, and because of the way planer topography works, you might not even know you've crossed from one to another (for example, Sigil is SIGIL - there's only one, and its the same one you enter no matter where you came from).

So my 'theories' I consider more along the lines of years and years of accumulated (nerd) knowledge being pieced together in something I hope is somewhat coherent. I don't try to lose anything - I try to get every single version of everything to work together, regardless of edition or world. Archtypes weren't mine - I've just gotten much more mileage out of them then their original intent.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think the 'Magical Quicksilver' (Moonsilver) is Silver Fire in a physical form. So yeah, Kukul being the pool also works.

On the other hand, reading the myths right now, I think Qotal is a better choice for Selūne, and then Shar would be Zaltec (although connecting Zaltec to Zehir/set would be interesting as well). Of course, the whole good god/bad god thing plays out MANY times in mythology (warring siblings, etc.) It doesn't ALWAYS have to be Shar & Selūne. Even in my own Proto-cosmology I have it where there were at least three sets of twins that had major ramifications on the Fey. Come to think of it... hmmmm... Shar & Selūn as archfey... I have to mull that one over. It might have some traction. Then again, I already have t where both go back to something much more primal (the 'duality' of the universe - everything has its equal opposite. This stems from THE ONE first splitting along the axis of Law & Chaos, and then the remaining being (in our universe) splitting along the divine feminine (Estelar), and the Divine Masculine (Primordial). Basically, change vs stasis (both are necessary for universe to 'live').



There is also the option that Shar and Selune as GODS are some kind of "primordial" mixed with "a soul". Thus, maybe, like Mystra who is an ascended mortal, perhaps Shar and Selune have also over time had to use a willing mortal soul in order to perform their "godly" interactions. Maybe the idea that they are the first gods/estelar is a bit of a lie. Not sure I like the idea, but it could have some traction. In fact, this might explain the idea that came forth that Sehanine is an aspect. The same might be said for Nanna-Sin, Eilistraee (sp?), and even such beings as Lurue which are seen as her "children". This would of course mean that Shar and Selune are themselves some kind of ascended mortals and there's some kind of primordial force of the "light in darkness" and "darkness" that is in work with them. In this, I would stress too that ascended mortals could be archfey and other powerful beings of shadow, etc...

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that all gods must be this... just saying that these two would seem to fit this mold based on what we know. I'd also say that perhaps the earthmother concept, sun concept, etc... may also be something similar.

Unfortunately, if you read ZeromaruX's most excellent history of the Nentir Vale (the first HUGE half of which is all 'universal {D&D} cosmology), Shar, Selūne, and Mystra get nary a mention. Nada. nothing. ZERO. Its as if they were never around 'in the beginning'.

Yet Bane, Corellon, and Moradin all are. So is the Raven Queen, which makes no sense at all (she became a god by stealing power... from a being that didn't even exist yet?)

This is why I think some of these names and beings are not what we think they are. For example, the Raven Queen obviously had to become THE RAVEN QUEEN at a much later date, so the person metioned in the proto-histories (there wasn't even a world yet!) would have to be whatever she was before she became tRQ (which a few of us have guessed may be Kiaransalee). Since WotC doesn't want to give away some its deeper secrets (and they shouldn't), they have to use the name she is known by now, even though using the name in that antideluvian context is an anachronism. It would be a bit clunky to repeatedly have to say, "the God now known as the Raven Queen" over and over again. Consider it more of an 'editing' thing than a lore thing. Its like when I am reading the GHotR and they refer to a place by their country name, thousands of years before the country (or regional name) would have existed. The same mountain range may have had a hundred different names in 30K+ years, but for simplicity sake they'll just refer to it by the name we know.

Which may seem like I just digressed badly down a side-path (as I am wont to do), but actually, this was my whole point. I think Shar, Selūne, and maybe even Mystryl (although we KNOW she was late to the party) were there, at the beginning... but were operating under different, non-FR names. The Seldarine are specifically mentioned dozens of times, so we know Sehanine was present... that means Selūne IS there. She's just going by her older name, is all. That means Shar was around... but Selūne/Sehanine may have not yet 'gone off her rocker', so she may still be JUST ONE PERSON in the proto-myths. The story of her splitting into 'two sisters' is FR-specific, and probably pertains to aspects (although I think the Shar persona has separated out of Sehanine so many times in so many spheres that she is now an archtype unto herself). Think of it like a computer virus - once one 'moon goddess' became infected, it passed it along through its uplink to the archtype, and outward into the other spheres. The great god Norton hadn't invented the anti(god)virus yet.

Mystra/Mystryl is much harder to reconcile on a multispheric basis. Not sure who/what she would be as an archtype. I do think Wee Jas is just a different aspect of her, though. Perhaps there is some sort of 'Hecate' archtype that's never mentioned - some goddess who applied creativity to a ritualization of magic (thus giving us the very first bits of Vancian/Weave magic). In fact, now that I am putting some thought to this, that may have been Ioun. Hecate is probably just another aspect of her. She'd be like the Bill Gates of the magical world - she wrote the first interface. Before that the gods had to 'code' in assembler (Binary).

Unfortunately, she was an original (Estelar) god as well, so its very hard to reconcile that to the myths concerning Mystryl's creation here in Realmspace (of course, myths are just that - MYTHS).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2017 03:21:03
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  03:30:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Mystryl was the first fusion of a God with a human soul? Its definitely the first recorded one (Ed has told us every incarnation of Mystryl/Mystra has been imprinted on a mortal, in much the same way those manifestations in the Old Empires were made from mortals).

Thus, she may have been the prototype deity. And by doing it that way, the first religion was created - the two-way link (conduit) that forms between worshipers and their god. This would have been quite a big deal for those Estelar and primordials (and whatever other 'big guns' were running around back then). In fact, this could have been one of the impetus for the Godswar (which happened AFTER the Dawn War - gods and primordials who fought with each other turned on one-another).

Old Jeremiah in the next claim over was your best drinkin' buddy, until he struck gold one day. Now your thinking good ol' Jeremey needs to have a little accident... Gods really aren't all that different than mortals. They just wield more power.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2017 03:30:48
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  18:42:29  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This got very metaphysical. Interesting stuff.

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