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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2017 :  01:54:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have only read the info about this in the Grand History and the 3e FRCS, and I know Serpent Kingdoms has some info as well. But I have a few doubts.

For what it seems, the Creator Races are called that because they created other races. Sarrukh created lizard-peoples (yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk, etc), Batrachi created amphibioids (dopplegangers, tako-people, etc.), the Aaerae created bird people (kenku, tengu, wyverns, etc.), and fey created the lesser fey (elves and the like).

But I have not idea what humanity created to be considered part of the Creator Races... In fact, when the Creator Races were the masters of the world, humanity was ape-like, as per the 3e FRCS.

So, what did humanity of old created to be called a Creator Race? Or just because D&D was created by humans?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Dec 2017 01:57:14

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Dec 2017 :  05:40:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it's not that they created other races -- instead, they created the first civilizations.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2017 :  08:23:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But there were civilizations way before the human one (the civilizations of the other creator races, to begin with; all sources have it that in the time of the Creator Races, humans were ape-like cavemen, while the Sarrukh had empires and the like, for instance).

Indeed, humanity needed help to built their own civilization in the Realms. Mostly, they got nearly all they know from dragons. As per Dragons of Faerūn, dragons though humans and dwarves, and even elves, how to built their first civilizations (yeah, elves are ungrateful bastards; dragons help them to create their civilization, and elves repay with the dracorage mythal, ). And we know that the magic the humanity developed was based in that of the elves (Imaskar) and the Sarrukh (Netheril).

None of the "achievements" of humanity in the Realms is really an achievement of humanity. They just borrowed it/steal it from other more advanced civilization.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Dec 2017 08:24:38
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Dalor Darden
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USA
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Posted - 15 Dec 2017 :  16:38:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I consider them a Creator Race because they were responsible for so many monsters being created.

While the MAJORITY of humanity were cavemen, it may be true; there are always exceptions that were powerful users of magic.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2017 :  17:46:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As Dalor said, humans are more about creating creatures, rather than what we usually think of as sentient beings (although 'magical beasts' are quite sentient - they just don't appear in the traditional humanocentric {bipedal} form we accept as thus). Things like Minotaurs, Perytons, etc.

Humans also HAD a highly advanced culture, possibly dating from the 'Time Before Time' (what I like to think of as the 'Age of the First World'. That culture did not survive the Sundering (although humans themselves did), and we find far greater evidence of the other four (especially the Fey, who seem to be doing much better than the other three). There was a story in Realms of the Elves which dated back to before the Crown Wars, to a time when 'dragons ruled the world' (so possibly post-Giant War, but the giants are so damn hard to place on the timeline). In that story, advanced humans lived and worked alongside elves under draconic rule. After the Kingkiller Star was created (and the dragon empires toppled), elves did fairly well, but humans seem to have collapsed back into a stoneage-like condition (however, there is evidence of advanced humans in The North long before there should have been, like the creators of The Citadel of the Raven).

For all we know, elves may have worked against the struggling humans and destroyed their cultures before they could arise to power (I definitely would NOT put something like past the elves). "History is written by the winners", and elves were most clearly 'the winners' post-Dragon Empires. Creator Races (Creatori) are also 'builders' (as are their living/thinking creations) - they leave lasting ruins.

Which brings me to the dragons, giants, and dwarves. As part of my proto-history (which segues out of my Overcosmology), I have it where those three were creations themselves, directly 'from the gods', but not to BE races (in the typical mortal sense). They were created to be laborers in the cosmic scheme of things, to help with the construction of the physical universe (which was just one flat plane at the time). More akin to angels/celestials, originally. The old classic movie Time Bandits is a great example of this (and the 'Age of Legends' in that movie would have been the pre-Shattered universe). Also, in the Book of SECRETS (by AEG), they have this great 'myth' about the dwarves, saying how they are not 'born' like other races but are really 'from the stone', which is why they don't have females. Dwarves, while tunneling, find special stones that look like very rough dwarves, and they take these and put them in an incubation chamber, where they eventually 'break out' of the thin layer of rocky crust and become dwarves. Now, we know D&D dwarves have females, but there is a group of dwarves in D&D (and specifically FR) that I can relate to these proto-(True)Dwarves - the Urdunnir. I picture those from those myths as being the original forebears of modern dwarves - after the Sundering (and Dawn/Gods Wars), these dwarves were finding less and less of those 'special stones' (perhaps no new ones were forming anymore?), so in order to continue their race they had to interbreed with other species (most likely humans, but maybe some elves and others), until they got enough females of their own. The early 'second generation dwarves' would have ALL been bearded (as per old D&D lore), but as the race evolved (and their bloodlines became more diluted), non-bearded females began to appear, until you have the race in its current form today. Bearded females still exist, but they would be 'of the old blood' (some of the purest dwarven bloodlines, which would produce the least amount of females). Urdunnir also now produce females, but they are rarer still - maybe one-in-a-hundred (because their blood is the closest to that of 'true Dwarves', or Dvergr).

Elves are not a creator Race because they are offshoots of Fey themselves. A 'lesser' version, as are terrestrial dragons and giants. We might be able to come up with a more ancient grouping called the 'Builder Races', which would include the Dwarves, Dragons, and Giants. They would be the 'primordials' as the Creator Races are to the Estellar - in fact, that could be THE major difference right there. Who created each group.

And then we'd need a third group as as well, of creatures that arose naturally within the universe, but the only race I can think of ATM that fits that category are the Spellweavers. They would be to the Obyriths as the 'Builders' are to the Primordials and as the 'Creators' are to the Estelar. Or maybe more like the mortal version of Primal spirits... not sure. This is an entirely new train of thought for me.

EDIT:
And to continue my train of thought - neither halflings or gnomes are true races. Halflings derive from Humans (and others) interbreeding with a strange little fey creature called a 'Ling' (that would be the 'Eastern' name for the creature*). Lings are almost like Korred in appearance, but without the goat/faun legs (Korred themselves are the result of Ling/Saytr crossbreeding). Lings are hairy little people, who despite their appearance seem to have to have some sort of hypnotic 'aphrodisiac' affect on creatures of other races - at least the females do. And despite their small size (about 2' tall), they seem to be quite sturdy - they'd have to be, considering they are seducing human males. In folklore, they are sometimes called 'the old people' (what British refer to as 'The Welsh' ). Because of their penchant for interbreeding with other species, they've all but disappeared themselves (their bloodlines have turned into dozens of others, like the Korred, and perhaps brownies).

Gnomes are the result of dwarves crossbreeding with halflings a very long time ago, so they are a crossbreed of a halfbreed, as it were. The gnomes would NEVER admit this, however, even though they get some of their best qualities from both their 'parent' races. Oh, and obviously, if Halflings sprung from humans, than that helps place them in the 'creator race' category, so I've come full-circle.


*In western (European) folklore, 'Lings' would have been the hobgoblins; quite literally, 'Hearth Fairies'. They have NOTHING in common with D&D Hobgoblines, who are actually a crossbreed themselves (between orcs and Goblins - one of those cases where the offspring is 'greater than' either parent species - it happens all the time in RW breeding). However, these crossbreeds have been around so long they've formed into their own distinctive race. Note this, and nearly everything above, is my own conjecture, based upon the confusing D&D lore, and my constant striving to put it all in some sort of 'unified theory'. Does that make me some sort of 'magical physicist'? An Arcanicist?


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2017 18:19:19
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2017 :  00:48:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have only read the info about this in the Grand History and the 3e FRCS, and I know Serpent Kingdoms has some info as well. But I have a few doubts.

For what it seems, the Creator Races are called that because they created other races. Sarrukh created lizard-peoples (yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk, etc), Batrachi created amphibioids (dopplegangers, tako-people, etc.), the Aaerae created bird people (kenku, tengu, wyverns, etc.), and fey created the lesser fey (elves and the like).

But I have not idea what humanity created to be considered part of the Creator Races... In fact, when the Creator Races were the masters of the world, humanity was ape-like, as per the 3e FRCS.

So, what did humanity of old created to be called a Creator Race? Or just because D&D was created by humans?



Hey Zero. I actually am exploring THAT topic in the United Tharchs of Toril. I explore it in Katashaka and in Osse. I'll paste what I have written up (fair warning, I've been jumping about in my docs so sometimes I don't finish something before I have to get up and do housework, etc....). The short version, the humans were tribal type folk, but they were doing "spirit" magic that allowed them to take on aspects of animals. Eventually, some humans began taking on animal features permanently. This led to humanoid races of various types (such as catfolk). At some point, after the sundering, a large portion of the people on Katashaka actually transferred to Abeir and appeared in Osse. At some point later, Osse actually transferred to Toril. Basically, this assumes that this whole sundering/spellplague/sundering thing has happened quite a few times in history.... maybe not as widespread... maybe not involving Faerun... but its happened. For instance, Zakhara MAY have come from Abeir.



Katashaka

Long ago during the time between the “Days of Thunder” and the “Dawn Ages”, Katashaka held a powerful and extremely inquisitive race of humans. This race would be known to many as a creator race in later times, though knowledge of them was little and far between. They had learned of a form of magic involving strange symbology, truenames, dreams, nightmares, and use of one's own will and imagination to force changes upon the world. These humans were in fact members of the original creator races, and it is believed that it was they that created many of the strange mammalian humanoid races of Toril that still inhabit the world.

When the Sarrukh and Batrachi empires grew and began to encroach upon their lands, these humans discovered Olurobo, the lord of dreams and nightmares, and his children, the nyama-nummo, or powerful dream spirits. Using special glyphs, totems, tattoos, and masks to depict the powerful, bestial nyama-nummo, they were able to call upon the power of collective nightmares. Gozirra, the giant spineback reptile which spit lightning and roared thunder; Tarrask, the giant rending horror; Kaeng, the gargantous, bonespur covered ape; Chup'po'clops, the great spirit spider; Gabara, the giant fire-breathing snapping turtle; Groedan, the giant pterasaur with the resounding shriek; Ghidoera, the many headed dragon-like beast; Kwaa'tal, the great feathered serpent; E'bearah, Vaerin, Mandaa, Kamaecuras, Baeragon, Gorasaur, Kumonji, Moegarra, Moettrah, Titanasaur, Khedorah, Norgraa, Ang'guer'ruu, these were all powerful creatures from the dreamtime which could be drawn forth at time of need to serve these humans. Many of these nyama-numo were also of simpler form, being spirits of the various animals in the surrounding world such as the great cats, savage canines, strong bears, inquisitive monkeys, the many horned beasts, fantastic birds, and even the strange reptiles, amphibians, and spirits of the oceans. The human dream shamans simply needed to open themselves to acting as a conduit to these powerful spirits, offering their own bodies as an anchor through which these primal entities could focus a melding of their souls. The greatest of these dream shamans could even serve as a powerful avatar allowing the huge nightmare beings to physically enter the real world, if only for a short time before the human conduit would have to rest and rebuild their bond with the realm of dreams, though they did discover that the interaction could be prolonged through blood sacrifice.

Many sought the power of the dream shamans, and they did bond themselves with various beast totems in order to obtain characteristics of said creatures. Over time, these characteristics began to breed true within the human tribes, such that after several generations what was once a human tribe would no longer be seen as part of the human race. Humans began to disappear, replaced by the monstrous creations that they had made of themselves in an attempt to perfect themselves. It is whispered even that these savage folk turned upon many of the remaining purebred humans when the humans began sacrificing them in order to appease the nyama-nummo. The nation of Mhairshalk, former powerhouse of the Sarrukh, had fallen, but its successors would prove no less of a thorn in the side of inhabitants of Katashaka. Eventually, the Batrachi Empire, Annam's brood, and even the feathered serpents of the Aearee intruded upon the disparate peoples of Katashaka. But then the batrachi did release upon the world many powerful entities, and the powerful dream shaman rulers of the humans did bind themselves with great beings from the dreamtime in order to protect their people. The battles that occurred are not well documented, but the destruction was believed to be vast and world threatening. Eventually, Asgoroth the World Shaper did breath its breath upon a celestial entity, causing it to burst and its blood drenched shards to fall unto the world. Shortly after this occurred, the majority of the humans of Katashaka simply were gone.

When the majority of human population disappeared, each of the fractious groups of Katashaka further separated themselves, eventually forming the melting pot of beast-like humanoids which would eventually become modern Katashaka. For millenia, the Tabaxi, a small remnant of this human population still thrived in the dark jungles, still serving “the sleeper”, a powerful dream shaman who had attained immortality through the sacrifice of his mortal servants. But, even these humans had been led away over four millenia ago by the servants of Ubtao. Still, it is whispered that deep in the jungles, some remnant of those ancient, nigh immortal humans still lies sleeping away the millenia, ready to draw upon the power of gigantic nightmares, the nyama-nummo, to defend their ancient homeland.

Into this world which has been lacking human involvement for millenia, a motley collection of human immigrants have come. Unlike their Lopangan forebears, these Mulan and Metahel immigrants seek to keep their races more pure. In the northwestern Pridelands of Katashaka, they brought progress in the form of knowledge, for many of the bestial tribes had sunk to their baser natures as hunters and gatherers. The humans brought prosperity in the form of agriculture and protection for the weaker races from those who simply viewed them as something to kill and eat. They brought freedom in the form of establishing safe gathering places wherein these races that were once deep in conflict could interact without fear of reprisal. In the northeastern tharch of New Eltabbar, on the other hand, they have introduced an insular society surrounded by enemies whose overwhelming hatred of one another is one of the main reasons that they have not united to destroy the debauched, nacissistic humans.

Osse

The history of the people of Osse is a rich oral history filled with references to the dreamtime and contains numerous tales filled with fantastic “great spirits”, talking animals, and the ghosts of their ancestors. Just how many of these tales are true and how many simple allegories meant to teach children the ways to live their lives is exceptionally hard given that the storytellers themselves are often unaware of the truth of such things. There is in fact a belief amongst their people that through their storytelling certain facts can be changed about their world. They call this strange storytelling magic Alcheringa, and it is generally a long, ritualistic form of cooperative magic which often involves stressing the body with dancing, sweats, and hunger, while making the mind more malleable and open by fatigue, the smoking of various pipeweeds, and use of various alchemical extracts. The participants enter a state of almost wakeful dreaming, during which to outside viewers it is obvious that some kind of connection is established between their group minds based upon their interactions. For those outside these rituals, their antics can be entertaining, if not even somewhat comical to those who have no understanding of what is happening. The exact effects that are made upon the world by these rituals are hard to interpret, but there can be no doubting how much those involved believe that they have affected their world through their dreams. Thus, new stories are born, and since they may have changed the world in ways that the outsiders didn't see, they are true, but only to some.

However, many of the stories do share common backgrounds. For instance, many older Osse stories speak of three different eras. First there was the “Time of Great Dreaming” when their people were led by powerful shamans who called upon the power of the na'amnumoans, or powerful spirit beasts from the land of nightmares. Little is remembered from this time, other than the stories of great battles between gigantic opponents, and the stories of humans who descended into bestial forms.

Then suddenly there came the “Era of Stone Sky”, in which the sky suddenly changed from blue to a light stone-like gray and they found themselves in another land entirely. The very earth itself was known to fly in the sky, and apparently it had formed a great glowing, grey barrier which blocked out the sky. Even the clouds had changed, for thunderous skies were said to bring green and copper hued clouds. Luckily, the trappings of their civilization had transferred with them, and they were able to prosper for a time. Unfortunately, they also found that their magic did not work as it had during the time of great dreaming. Their dream shamans were no longer able to call upon the aid of the na'amnumoans.

However, it seemed that in this new land the spirits were more tied to the world around them, creating a special form of magic energy which they called incarnum. They learned of this magic by talking with the spirits, great and small, particularly Olorborem, the spirit of imagination and the life-giving clouds and rainbows. Slowly, spirit shamans and totemists, able to harness the power of spirits of the ancestors, animals, and plants to aid them. Some of these cultures grew strong in power through ritual sacrifice of their enemies and entrapping their spirits to serve them. It is whispered that for a time, they awakened intelligence within the beasts that surrounded them as well, and as a result many villages were known to live and work alongside these noble animals. Of course, the fact that even today talking thylacines, a form of marsupial wolf with tiger-like stripes; Ossean ursines, a small marsupial resembling a mixture of dog and bear particularly noted for the strength of its bite; marsupial lions, kangaroos, and small numbats number amongst most Osse villages lends credence to this story. It was even said that many humans took to taming giant hawks, falcons, and ospreys and forming villages on the great skystones.

Although this period of relative peace and prosperity lasted for a long time, the “Era of Stone Sky” also held a darker period, for the arrival of conquering dragons and dragonborn caught many villages unawares. The humans were taken away to serve as slaves or food for their dragon overlords, meanwhile periodic raids upon Osse tribes continued for millenia. The dragons generally avoided the skystone villages, as their dragonborn soldiers were unable to fly up to them without aid, and thus these societies began to draw more and more of their earthbound cousins to them. Eventually, the dragon overlords began to move onto Ossean soil, so that they could more easily raid for slaves and food. Soon, much of the northern and western coasts were filled with foreign colonies.

The turning point came when these humans of Osse led a small raid against one of the less powerful dragon overlords and captured over a dozen dragon eggs and more importantly, the spirits of hundreds of dragonborn which were absorbed into specially prepared totems. Using a variation on the ancient arts of dream magic and powerful incarnum, they were able to split the spirits within the dragon eggs and transform a willing human into a creature somewhat resembling dragonborn, but possessing wings and a tail. These gliding, dragonmen were near fearless and upon their death, many were known to explode with elemental energies. The humans of Osse, with the aid of many human slaves already within the draconic colonies, soon infiltrated several other dragon colonies and made off with over a hundred dragon eggs. However, based on knowledge gained from the human slaves, they also planted evidence to make the various overlords suspect their fellows rather than the primitive humans. By the time the dragons realized it was the humans who had turned against them, an army of thousands of these dragonmen had been created to serve the humans in their Skystone villages.

The fury of the dragons knew no bounds, and even though they could not easily transport their dragonborn soldiers to assault the Skystone villages, several dragons moved against each of the nearest tribe to them. They were not prepared for the dragonmen, many of whom dived down in suicide flights from the backs of giant hawks to rend and tear at reptilian wings, forcing their enemies to crash to earth. Many dragons were caught unawares when they simply bit into a dragonman, only to have them explode in their mouth. The devastation was amazing, but it further incited riots amongst the overlords' colonies, as dragonborn saw in the dragonmen a reflection of themselves opposing their masters. Within a short time, all dragons had been slain in Osse, and their holdings seized by their servants. A new friendship was forged between dragonborn and human, as many of the transformed humans bred with dragonborn.

Several centuries later, the age known as “The Return of Blue Sky” came when the sky suddenly turned back to blue and a sun, moon, and stars once again appeared. At the same time, the Skystone villages came crashing to earth, destroying much of the civilization which had begun to flourish once again. Their once friendly dragonborn neighbors blamed the humans for the changes which had occurred, for their once great cities had been destroyed by earthquakes generated as they settled into the new world. These dragonborn cultures sank into barbarism, many of them turning to hunting and eating humans as a means of survival, forcing many human tribes toward the eastern and southern coasts.

Portions of the continent had even slid into the sea, leaving strings of hundreds of small islands and dangerous underwater obstacles surrounding Osse's northern and western coast. Over time, these islands saw immigrants from the lands of Kara-Tur and the western edge of Zakhara, but most of these settlements were due to ships being run aground and unprepared for a long stay. Usually their inhabitants did not survive more than a decade due to lack of resources or dragonborn capturing them, but the larger islands along the eastern coast proved a more fertile environment.

Some of these immigrants managed to move inland, resulting in a blending of their cultures to a degree. The idea of alcheringa, or dream magic, has always been strong in Osse, and the art of tattoo magics in various forms is explored by many tribes. Many spirits of far off Kara-Tur have become accepted into their society, and spirit shamans, druids, and totemists are all relatively common. Giant wood or stone carved totem defenders, tied to local spirits of crabs, rams, koalas, kangaroos, kylacines, marsupial lions, emu, goanna, crocodiles, bunyips (an odd seal-shark hybrid able to come on land), and the strange diprotodon (a herbivorous marsupial mammal somewhat resembling an extremely large, pigeon-toed, bear with a giant nose), are a common site in many villages. Sorcerers are rare, but not unheard of like wizards or wu-jen, though they do tend to be segregated from their communities, often imposing self isolation after an accident due to lack of control of their powers. Some tribes have embraced a variety of pact magics, usually with nature spirits or even genies. However, some tribes favor darker powers which favor ritual sacrifice of sentient beings in return for power, and such tribes often favor cannibalism as well.

Though many had heard the stories of the “Era of Stone Sky”, many natives of Osse believed these stories to be simple embellishments meant to impress small children. The idea of floating stone cities and a sky of stone seemed a little too much of a stretch for the imagination. Then a century ago, the sky turned a metallic silver hue and the earthmotes rose. Overnight, the moon had changed in appearance, revealing two great seas, several smaller lakes, three brightly shining mountain ranges, and what appeared to be small collections of sprawling cities. They knew they were no longer in the world that they had known. More importantly, they knew that the old stories must be true.

Once again, the shamans of the many tribes felt the power of great dream magic, for in their dreams the moon was reborn as a part of a great ritual involving many different far flung peoples. The next evening, the moon appeared in the night sky looking just as it had in the old world, desolate but beautiful. A few weeks later, they dreamed of a ritual to call upon Tama'nui'tera, lord of the sun, and Maoi, the trickster god which ensnared the sun with coconut tree vines and beat it with a jawbone to slow it down as it traversed the sky. The next morning, to their amazement, they saw the sun in the sky, being held back by Maoi so as to provide more time in the light for his children.

When the red wizards, led by the tattoo covered Mythrell'aa, appeared on a strange flying vessel descending from the sky to the East Ossean island of Kalgooratha, it was only natural that the natives treated them with awed fascination. However, it was the appearance of Zulkir Mythrell'aa herself that truly dazzled the people of Osse, for the illusionist's pale, blue-white skin did appear to glow with an inner light. Also, she was covered head to toe with strange tattoos which all swore were powerful signs of Alcheringa, though none could exactly recall what they looked like later. Then Mythrell'aa did tell the story of how she and her people had come from one of the Tears of the moon, and as she spoke images formed in the air showing the majesty of Luneira. She spoke of how her people needed to seed the earth, and they brought strange beasts and tools unlike anything that the Oslanders had ever seen. In return for allowing them to share the land and providing aid to work the land, the red wizards offered to teach the islanders of agriculture, animal husbandry, and boat building. Moreover, they would dedicate themselves as protectors of the people of the islands, for all knew that this strange new world would bring with it great danger.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Dec 2017 01:06:00
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eeorey
Learned Scribe

94 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2017 :  00:59:58  Show Profile Send eeorey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could say that humans have created other races though... well not exactly but still, half-prettymucheverythings are kind of a mostly human thing.

Edited by - eeorey on 16 Dec 2017 01:00:22
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2017 :  01:07:13  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your answers. Though, to be honest, I'm now more confused that I was before... For stuff like this is that I got frustrated because of my little understanding of the pre-Spellplague Realms

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2017 :  08:34:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humans wrote the D&D books, thus, they made ALL the other races, making them the greatest creators of them all.


But seriously, the Gith were once a human offshoot as well, and they go back FAR in the timeline - perhaps even pre-Sundering. Gith were probably a surviving branch of the original Blackmoor culture (which I've theorized was actually located in/on the pre-Sundered first World, be that Abeir-Toril, or something greater).

In fact, all the Creator races were on that First World, which is why we see them (and their 'creations') spread all over the ultiverse.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2017 08:39:01
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  17:40:52  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me humas are mentioned by some scholars because there is evidence of their existance long before modern age on par with elves, giants and such.
Humans are simply descendants of Janni who settled on Toril and became domesticate like other native outsiders. They originaly served their elemental lords in times even before the first empires and later served also others like dragons, elves, ... Their origin forgotten because nobody cared for where are their subjects from. Giths were human slaves of batrachi taken into Astral sea to forge their Infinite empire. Thanks to their neutral elemental nature they are able to easily align themselves to surrounding conditions and to blend with other races.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  19:00:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like that idea.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But seriously, the Gith were once a human offshoot as well, and they go back FAR in the timeline - perhaps even pre-Sundering. Gith were probably a surviving branch of the original Blackmoor culture (which I've theorized was actually located in/on the pre-Sundered first World, be that Abeir-Toril, or something greater).



The thing with the Gith, is that they are slaves of the Mind Flayers, who came from the future (as per canon Spelljammer). So, there is the possibility that the Gith were a future off-shot of humanity (perhaps as devolution, if we go by the Athasian giths) that was brought to the past when the illithids left their future crystal sphere.

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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  20:57:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I spin that (and I just mentioned them in the Cosmology thread, in regards to this same subject) is that the illithids were doing something. Something VERY bad. Something COSMIC. It probably involved destroying the universe (as we know it).

And somehow, humanity stopped them. You see, 'humans' are the Race of Destiny. However, they've diverged into so many different paths no-one really knows which path is the correct one. The illithids were stopped from completing their 'ultimate plan', and then the survivors of their universe-spanning empire came back in time, hoping to destroy/enslave humanity before it ever got to fulfill their destiny. they found the Gith - a group of humans that looked like good candidates. The mistake they made was getting the Gith mad at them - by turning humanity into their nemesis, they actually created the situation in which humans eventual STOP their schemes. Typical time-traveling blunder, really.

Oh, and they created themselves, accidentally. They also looked for their own ancestors, and found a small, octopoidal species kept as pets by the Aboleth. The Aboleths had brought them over from the Otherverse (now The Far Realms). A weird little creature (about the size of a large watermelon that Aboleths enjoyed feeding slaves to. You see, these 'Thids' would start at the head, because they loved brains. Then after they'd eat the head, they tap-into the nervous systems and act as the new 'head' of the creature. Originally they had just one eye as well, but they evolved a pair over time (eventually - from all the mixing of DNA - becoming the race they would be in the future. Except, they never got to evolve naturally. The returning illithids were aghast at the state of things, and crated a virus that would wipe-out the Thids without the Aboleths knowing the Illithids were involved. And so those 'survivors' from the future became their own ancestors instead.

As for the thids, they would eventually escaped the Aboleth had they been allowed to evolve. They would have become the peaceful Thood... or just 'Ood'... eventually.

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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2017 20:57:30
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 20 Dec 2017 :  16:12:13  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Humans wrote the D&D books, thus, they made ALL the other races, making them the greatest creators of them all.


-Lol, this is what I was going to say. To the victors go the spoils, and history is written by the winners. Some self-righteous philosopher-historian in Candlekeep classifies humans as one of the Creator Races, it's not like anyone else is really left to argue.

-As for a real answer, though, I assume it's because humans seemingly were among the earliest inhabitants of the planet, along with the other Creator Races.

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The Masked Mage
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Humans wrote the D&D books, thus, they made ALL the other races, making them the greatest creators of them all.


But seriously, the Gith were once a human offshoot as well, and they go back FAR in the timeline - perhaps even pre-Sundering. Gith were probably a surviving branch of the original Blackmoor culture (which I've theorized was actually located in/on the pre-Sundered first World, be that Abeir-Toril, or something greater).

In fact, all the Creator races were on that First World, which is why we see them (and their 'creations') spread all over the ultiverse.



Wow - you straight up brought Blackmoor into this. Ok, I'll see your Blackmoor and raise you an Alphatia.
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CorellonsDevout
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Humans "evolved" slower than other races, and thus didn't reach the level of civilization as some of the other races did until later. But (as far as I know), they aren't "immigrant" races, either.

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TBeholder
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

For what it seems, the Creator Races are called that because they created other races. Sarrukh created lizard-peoples (yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk, etc), Batrachi created amphibioids (dopplegangers, tako-people, etc.), the Aaerae created bird people (kenku, tengu, wyverns, etc.), and fey created the lesser fey (elves and the like).

But I have not idea what humanity created to be considered part of the Creator Races...

For the same reason? Granted, most stuff that really became "big" are guardian monsters like owlbears and gelatinous cubes, but...

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  18:44:19  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

For what it seems, the Creator Races are called that because they created other races. Sarrukh created lizard-peoples (yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk, etc), Batrachi created amphibioids (dopplegangers, tako-people, etc.), the Aaerae created bird people (kenku, tengu, wyverns, etc.), and fey created the lesser fey (elves and the like).

-Just noticed this. That last part, I've always postulated that their inclusion as members of the Creator Races does not come from creating anything, but opening portals from Faerie and letting races in. The 'accepted' Elven creation myth, they were created by Corellon Larethian, so unless you want to go with the hypothesis that Corellon Larethian was some kind of Archfey (or something else) that gained divinity, it doesn't work. Same thing with other fey creatures, fairies, lepruchans, sprites, dryads, and so on. The Fey creator race (leShay) being the ones to get them to Realmspace, that fulfills the criteria of them introducing them without violating their accepted D&D origins.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  19:42:11  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always thought there was a big part of history that was missing from the realms. If the humans were always around, way back during the dragon-wars, and the wars between the other creator races - how did they survive at all? I think the humans came first. The most powerful of them created or became the other creator races with their ancient magic, and a few hid in the caves waiting for their chance again.

Think of this as the Shannara theory of evolution.
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Markustay
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  07:57:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

For what it seems, the Creator Races are called that because they created other races. Sarrukh created lizard-peoples (yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk, etc), Batrachi created amphibioids (dopplegangers, tako-people, etc.), the Aaerae created bird people (kenku, tengu, wyverns, etc.), and fey created the lesser fey (elves and the like).

-Just noticed this. That last part, I've always postulated that their inclusion as members of the Creator Races does not come from creating anything, but opening portals from Faerie and letting races in. The 'accepted' Elven creation myth, they were created by Corellon Larethian, so unless you want to go with the hypothesis that Corellon Larethian was some kind of Archfey (or something else) that gained divinity, it doesn't work. Same thing with other fey creatures, fairies, lepruchans, sprites, dryads, and so on. The Fey creator race (leShay) being the ones to get them to Realmspace, that fulfills the criteria of them introducing them without violating their accepted D&D origins.
This is why I've been saying for years Corellon was an ascended archfey, but with the wonderful {sarcasm} 4e lore, Corellon predates all mortal races, including the fey, so he can't be fey, and he sure as hell can't be an Elf. But I still think the Fey (Eladrin now, we used to say LeShay) 'created' many of the fey races, not like in a mad scientists's laboratory, but rather, by becoming them. I think that's what happened to the others, as well. I've explained it elsewhere...

(Original) Fey were beings of light - pure energy. Basically, Will-O-Wisps. By 'anchoring' themselves to a person, place, or thing (and is some rare cases, even a concept), they can take physical form in the Prime Material. They can also choose their forms, and at first this was VERY chaotic, but over time, there were certain set 'patterns' most fey took to (Brownies & Pixies, and even centaurs and animal forms like the Lythari did). Thus Fey are literally their own creations.

The dark (Unseelie) fey remained more chaotic, and less pattern-bound, and you can still see that today in their endless variety of shapes and sizes. Once the First World was destroyed, many creatures became 'locked' into their forms because the prime Material's nature was altered (The Ymir had 'died' in the Dawn War).

Now onto the others - each can make changes to themselves and that is why they are Creatori (Creator Races). The Batrachi are the easiest - they are literally shape-shifters. I think the Maluagrym must have some Batrachi blood.

The Sarrukh gained the ability to alter other forms of 'scalyfolk', and so they molded and adapted dozens of other scaled creatures to become their servants. Somehow, the great cosmic joke to all that was that as powerful as they were, their power wouldn't work on themselves (or other sarrukh), hence the need to create offshoots by hybridization and what-not.

Aeriee can literally change their environment at the drop of a hat, because they can fly. Unlike the others who change creatures (including themselves), Aeriee change their surroundings. They even built floating nest-cities and could tow them to other parts of the world when things got bad for them. They were the ultimate nomads - they never had to deal with unpleasant seasonal changes. Airee may not have been able to change themselves, but they could change their situation, which was just as good.

Humans. Humans adapt. Humans EVOLVE. An elf plays with magic in front of a caveman... and a century later humans have archwizards. Humans adapt to every environment and every extreme. They learn every skill they need to learn to continue expanding outward. They learned magic from the other Creators. They taught themselves technology, and overcame what they lacked (they learned to fly, so the Aeiree would no longer 'be above them'). When other (primitve) races encounter an ocean, they stop. Humans figure out how to cross it... without ever knowing whats waiting for them on the other side. When humans were enslaved by a psionic race (the illithids), they learned psionics. And when humans beheld their first 'God', they learned how to do that too.

Humans can't naturally change themselves like Batrachi or fey, and they can't force changes on others (although they do, with magic). And humans can't simply move to another place when things get bad - its not really in them to do so. Humans internalize their needs and EVOLVE, and within a few generations they have the skills (and even physical mutations) necessary to overcome adversity. Thats their secret - humans are a virus. Other races need to adapt more quickly, because they don't have anywhere near the fecundity humans do. We breed like roaches (in the eyes of the other races), and while an elf is still trying to figure out what pair of leggings to put on in the morning, three human generations just went by. Other intelligent races don't have our DNA either - they don't have that 'road map' of evolution we have. They were created whole-cloth, already smart with civilizations, just the way their gods intended. Our god started us out as little more than very smart apes with a less hair... and then he died (or became something else... depends on who you ask). We didn't have a 'High God' or pantheon to hold our hand in the beginning - we had to make our own. We pretty much have racial 'abandonment issues', and our coping-mechanism (as a species) is to over-achieve.

So much like the Fey, humans 'create themselves', but not with a magical snap-of-the-fingers. The do so by breeding, and implanting that subconscious genetic imperative in their offspring. Humans will eventually be able to become whatever they need to become, for no other reason than they simply will not accept there is something they can't do. They're just not wired that way.

There was an episode of Doctor Who where he ran into a group of humans parked right outside a Black Hole, which even he thought was impossible (its also the episode where we meet to Ood... which are illithids). He made the comment, "This is why I love humans - tell them something they're not allowed to do, and they'll figure out a way to do it!"

So yeah, we're the BRATS of the multiverse. But very, VERY clever brats.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2017 08:11:24
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Lord Karsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

]This is why I've been saying for years Corellon was an ascended archfey, but with the wonderful {sarcasm} 4e lore, Corellon predates all mortal races, including the fey, so he can't be fey, and he sure as hell can't be an Elf. But I still think the Fey (Eladrin now, we used to say LeShay) 'created' many of the fey races, not like in a mad scientists's laboratory, but rather, by becoming them. I think that's what happened to the others, as well. I've explained it elsewhere...

-Luckily, the Fey Creator Race (leShay) are immortal and have the innate ability to shapeshift.

-I've always liked the idea that Fey creatures just kinda sprung into existence on the Plane of Faerie. Kind of like elementals, where they're the natural embodiment of an element, except Fey. The idea that Skerrit created centaurs, Squelaiche created lepruchauns, Emmantiensien created ents, and so on, that always seemed hokey to me, and not very Fey-mysterious.

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Markustay
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Posted - 31 Dec 2017 :  19:23:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, but it is what it is.

In the cases where the gods did not predate their races (in the 4e lore), we could always spin it that those are 'legends', and that those creatures arose from the ranks of the race - perhaps being some form of racial 'overmind' that simply generated (although I'm thinking more of a combination - some creature that embodied the 'true meaning' of what it meant to be that thing - lets say a Centaur - merged with the essence of the race itself {the overmind}, becoming its first god).

However, within the framework of the 4e lore, it might be easier to say that Corellon (and the fey other Seldarine that would have been around then... which would also included Gruumsh back then, BTW) created the first of each race (those racial deities), and they, in turn, 'fathered' their races.

Merging that with my own lore/theories, maybe Corellon & Co. created specific beings to help with his projects (all those Fey Gods), and then the mortal fey (those shimmering balls of light I talked about above) mimicked the way their favorite gods looked. Thus, the gods did 'give birth' to the races, but not in the way we usually think.

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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2017 19:25:10
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CorellonsDevout
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Even before 4e, I never saw Corellon as an ascended archfey, as I think I have said before. He and the other Seldarine (along with many other "racial" deities), have always been deities (or divinity of some kind, whatever you choose to call them). I have always seen them as creators of their race (elves, dwarves, etc). It makes far more sense to me (and simplifies things) that they start out as gods, and "fathered" their race(s). To me, the lore (even prior to 4e) points in this direction. Granted, I am not quite as versed as some scribes here, but based on what I *do* know, it seems to me that they have always been deities, and have been around [i]a long[i/] time, though not necessarily since THE BEGINNING.

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Ayrik
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The pre-Gith "forebearers" were not true humans. They were just human-like race. And, judging from the artwork/descriptions of "degenerate" Giths in Athas and Spelljammer, they apparently "evolved" from some sort of reptilian humanoid stock. I think links between Giths and Blackmoor are purely speculative.

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Markustay
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Yup - speculative. I'm just merging old lore and new.

(The way I see it) The Gith are an offshoot, as all current humans are. I picture my version of 'Blackmoorians' as taller, stronger, faster, etc - like PERFECT humans. Picture them more like that proto-human in the movie Prometheus (Practically giantkin by today's standards).

I also picture them being... Black (or rather, brown, if you want to get technical). They would have evolved an incredibly complex high-tech society. Technology so advanced it would seem like magic to most folks; picture the Dying Earth in Jack Vance's novels... like that (especially toward the end). When the Material plane was shattered, they were hit the hardest, because THEIR 'magic' completely relied on technology, which is based on the laws of science. Once the physics of the universe changed, they were basically 'nuked' back into the stone-age and had to start over (plus, of all the races, their god was gone).

Someday I need to do a map of how I am picturing my 'Midgard' looking (the First World). The firmament that would become Faerūn would be a central part of it (The 'laboratory of the Gods'), and the five Creator races would be spread around the central area, with dwarves, giants, and dragons (and numerous other Planer beings) further out still, 'building' the universe. In fact, its very similar to how I am picturing the feywld looking now, with Fey races living in the center and giant kingdoms all around the perimeter (except there was no 'perimeter' on the First World - it was one vast, endless plane).

As for Corellon being there before the fey and elves, that's pretty much set in stone now. I can work with that. I still wouldn't call them 'Elven Gods' though. They're not elves, and never were. That's just one more lie the elves tell (pretending to be the 'chosen people'). Corellon is no more elven than Moradin, or Bane, or a host of other Estelar. Elves need to stop laying claim to everything... them and their 'Elven privilege'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2018 22:17:10
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CorellonsDevout
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



As for Corellon being there before the fey and elves, that's pretty much set in stone now. I can work with that. I still wouldn't call them 'Elven Gods' though. They're not elves, and never were. That's just one more lie the elves tell (pretending to be the 'chosen people'). Corellon is no more elven than Moradin, or Bane, or a host of other Estelar. Elves need to stop laying claim to everything... them and their 'Elven privilege'.



LOL, well, on a technical level, they aren't, as gods aren't confined by things like "race". However, Corellon is elven in the sense that he (along with the other Seldarine) represent/are worshiped by the elves, at least in Realmspace. Same holds true with Moradin being a dwarven god, Tondalla being a gnome, etc. They are also the "fathers" of said race. In that sense, they are elven, dwarven, and gnomish gods. But in the grand scheme of things, they aren't, because "race" applies to mortal (or at leas, non-divine) folks. And, prior to the race's conception, they wouldn't have been called elven, dwarven, or gnomish deities, anyway, for obvious reasons. But, after the conception, and once they were venerated by whatever race, than calling them elven, dwarven, or gnomish gods makes sense, and simplifies things. The Seldarine in the elven pantheon, Moradin and the other dwarven gods (forgetting if they have a name for the collective pantheon) is the dwarven pantheon, etc.

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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jan 2018 00:20:55
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