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Mi-Go
Acolyte
Finland
10 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 12:10:32
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And maybe Trolls too...
Hi everyone!
Short version - why are so many evil races green in color and have pointed ears?
Long version -
As we surely all know, Orcs and Goblins were -mostly- written into fantasy by Tolkien back in the day and he had a surprisingly detailed explanation both for their shared origin as well as for their distinct shared appearance as they were created by Morgoth from other races to be servants of Evil.
However, in D&D and particularly in Faerun, Orcs and Goblins come from two different pantheons that are opposed and fight each others actively instead of being created by a shared Dark Lord or something like that but still share the Goblin-Orc physiology of Tolkien.
I was planning on creating a small adventure based on exploring Orcish and Goblin culture and societies, so this question is quite relevant.
As there does not seem to be much source material about them, any pointers in general towards good (hopefully online) sources about the origin and history of these two races would be greatly appreciated!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 12:36:06
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There are grey orcs in the Realms and orange goblins. I think, just like humans, they have different coloring depending on their location.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 12:42:50
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Don't confuse orcs and goblins in other games with how they look in D&D.
orcs were green in the old D&D cartoon and earlier editions, but that's changed. Now, they're more gray, with SOME having green undertones
From races of faerun regarding orcs
Gray orcs
They are somewhat hairy, with long manes of bristly hair on their heads, shoulders, and backs. Their faces are less porcine than the mountain orcs, with the exception of their tusks. They have yellow, orange, or red eyes, lupine ears, and black or gray hair. Gray orcs are more apt to wear civilized clothing than mountain orcs, and prefer varying shades of brown, black, blue, and other dark colors. Skin tones are usually gray with mottled patches of lighter or darker gray on the chest and flanks.
half-orcs
A half-orc is usually about as tall as a human and a little heavier. [b]Their skin tends to be gray with green or even purple undertones[b], and their faces feature sloping brows, jutting jaws with prominent teeth, and flat, squashed noses. This and their coarse body hair make their lineage plain for all to see.
[b]mountain orcs[b]
These are essentially the "default" orcs. Then entry in races of faerun doesn't give their skin color. However, the description at least in the 3.5 monster manual says "This creature looks like a primitive human with gray skin and coarse hair". The drawing that goes along with it shows a creature whose skin though is a bit brown/yellow with MAYBE a little green.... but mostly brown/yellow.
Goblins aren't green, and neither are hobgoblins. They are yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 13:06:24
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It's mold from not bathing regularly. 
Or perhaps they are literally green with envy, because everyone like elves better than orcs and goblins. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 13:30:07
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 16:19:34
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Gruumsh was Gygax's inception for the origin of his (Tolkien-inspired) orcs. And decidedly grey. Grey would be better natural colouring for dirty, burnt, and underground terrain.
Green would be better for forests and jungles. Though we don't see many green-skinned elves.
Goblins might have some sort of link to the Feywild. Not as their true origin, but as a place where their predecessors "evolved" a little from orc-like towards pre-goblin-like creatures? It might explain their green tinge.
Orcs are apparently a diluted strain of orogs, the "pure orcs". So perhaps they've crossbred a little with something green.
I would describe orc colouration as something between gang-green and burnt-hombre ... hahaha, sorry. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Dec 2017 16:27:52 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 19:01:42
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Aren't the orcs green because of Warcraft? Though, I don't remember green orcs in any D&D world. They are more grayish (as everyone has said).
Dunno goblins, but in my limited D&D experience, they are like reddish. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 19:24:05
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I've always tended to picture orcs as looking like the Star Wars Gamorreans.
40k's orcs and gobbies are usually green. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Dec 2017 19:24:49 |
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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte
Belgium
30 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 19:28:47
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I remember some Yoda-style forest gobelin in the Shining South 3.5 supplement, that was defintely green. I checked the name: it's the Tasloi.
Orc are green in Warhammer, and I guess it's due to their fungus-spore-style reproduction (even if Fungus don't contain chlorophyll). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 19:33:38
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There are also blue goblins, red orcs, and both comes in shades of brown, occasionally.
I think* the 'generic' goblinoids (and BTW, in a lot of settings Orc are not lumped-in as 'goblinoids', FR {usually} included) are green for the same reason why elves sometimes have a geenish-tint to their skin and hair tones - they are all fey, from way-back-when. There was a 'parting of the way' either before or during the Dawn war, and the Dokalfar ('ugly' elves, which later became the orcs and goblinoids) chose to leave Tintageer. The Dokalfar were NOT Dark Elves - those were something different; an offshoot of normal Green (Sylvan) elves. It was merely a way of describing 'southern elves', before they became drow.
*I say "I think", as in, "the following is my own feelings on the matter, and not official lore, but based enough on canon as to not quite go against it".
And I just realized something - my timeline (of my 'Overcosmology') is off: If normal (non-Eladrin) elves existed for the goblinoids (Dokalfar) to split from the Ljosalfar (light elves), then this would have had to have happened after the Dawn War, when everything changed, and all the (existing at that time) races became two-tiered. I wanted to connect the animosity between Gruumsh and Corelon to that event, but they fought together in the war, so the parting-of-ways had to happen later, but before the events in the GHotR that described the First Sundering. I just checked - its between -31K and -30K DR, so that eaves a 1000-year window. thats enough time for two brothers to grow to hate each other. 
It does mean I have to move my 'Death of Ymir' to the start of the Dawn War, and not the culmination, because there is tons of evidence the 'lesser types' of creatures existed before the Sundering. Unless... I connect the elven 'lessening' to an unrelated event, and not the Sundering/Shattering of the Prime Material. This would all mean the dawn War occurred while the Crystal Spheres were forming from the shattered bits of the Prime. Hmmmmm... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2017 19:34:34 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 20:12:11
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I don't know World of Warcraft lore - don't play the game, haven't read the books, etc. I did see the movie. It has leathery brown-tanned orcs and it has green orcs. One of the deleted/extended scenes addresses this: it suggests that orcs are naturally brownish but those who have "taken the Fel" (were infused by the eldritch radioactive-greenish "Fel" magic) to increase their physical power (and, seemingly, also decrease their mental power) have unnaturally turned green. An "untainted" brown orc laughs about this when a belligerent green "Fel" orc repeatedly attempts to provoke him into "taking the Fel" or proving himself in contests of brute strength and violence. "I am stronger! I am faster! I hit harder!", "... but ... but you're green!"
Nothing to do with D&D, really, especially since green D&D orcs predate green WoW orcs by decades anyhow.
I think the only reason we have green orcs is from some of the early D&D artwork. The same reason we have confusion over the different skin colours of drow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Dec 2017 20:26:50 |
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Bravesteel
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 00:08:55
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| I believe the green association that many people take comes from Warhammer. Warcraft was originally supposed to be a Warhammer computer game, along with Starcraft, but Games Workshop declined the license. I don't remember Gygax or Arneson ever referring to Orcs and Goblins as being green. |
I loved to read and to write, but then something happened. As I made my way through school, I kept getting handed books to read that didn't excite me and didn't even remotely connect to the realities of my life.- R. A. Salvatore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 00:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Aren't the orcs green because of Warcraft? Though, I don't remember green orcs in any D&D world. They are more grayish (as everyone has said).
Dunno goblins, but in my limited D&D experience, they are like reddish.
I believe it all stems back to WAAAAYYYY back to the 80's and 90's when D&D came out. They were originally green. Then they came out with the D&D cartoon from 1983 to 1985. They were very much green in that (it was like a pea green). At the same time as the cartoon release, the original Warhammer game came out (1983), and they adopted the accepted color it seems (i.e. pea green). So, then every time you saw them painted in dragon magazine by people they were green. I'm not sure when they started changing the flesh tone (maybe around the time of the release of the Lord of the Rings movies? Maybe a few years prior to that). Gamorrean guards from Star Wars: Return of the Jedi were in fact a nod to them. Oh, and the Warcraft "orcs versus humans" game didn't come out until about 1994 or so, and it followed the trend that was going at the time of green skinned orcs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Dec 2017 00:37:51 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 03:29:53
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| 5e Goblins are yellow, a decision that I don't like. They tried to make Goblins buffer looking too, to make them scarier. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 11:42:26
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As the original request is for culture and history of orcs and goblins I would add my musings on the subject. They are not official and are based on some ideas here at candlekeep.
Gruumas was a green elven main god and was a brother to Corellion. They fought many battles together and led their people to Toril. Once they settled there were some clashes about who should rule whole elven race as a main god and both brothers wanted that position. As other gods (mainly Araushnee of dark elves) sided with Corellion he defeated Gruumas (taking his eye out during the fight) and expelled him from newly formed Arvandor and cursing his followers to hate the sun and corrupting their bodies. Those green elves have become goblins and hid underground. Gruumas loathed those ugly weak creatures and wandered planes looking for race of warriors of his liking. He found them (orcs) in Acheron (Nishrek) where they fought their endless battles. He challenged their god Orcus and after defeating him he took his place and expelled Orcus. To cement his position he took Luthic as his wife and created Baghtru. From this time orcs have got part of Gruumas's gifts and curses so they become green and hate light but remained strong and fierce. Later some of them were taken by Netheril's mages as a slaves and their planar taint was removed creating breed of Grey Orcs who are more rational and easier to control. They multiplied and become common in Northern Faerun.
As for goblins - their other dieties stayed with wood elves so for time they were desperate but soon heroes among them stood out and lead their people to victory for which they were worshipped and came to be demigods themselves. |
Edited by - Wrigley on 13 Dec 2017 11:55:38 |
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Mi-Go
Acolyte
Finland
10 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 12:51:04
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Quite a few replies since yesterday, for which I am thankful!
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Don't confuse orcs and goblins in other games with how they look in D&D.
Oh, I am not! As you mentioned yourself, both of the two races were originally green colored and the recent re-coloring had slipped my attention.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[b]mountain orcs[b]
These are essentially the "default" orcs. Then entry in races of faerun doesn't give their skin color. However, the description at least in the 3.5 monster manual says "This creature looks like a primitive human with gray skin and coarse hair".
I find it a bit interesting that most of the Orc race was recolored to be gray in color as the Gray Orcs, just like you said yourself, are interlopers from another Prime and their arrival was quite a big thing back then. Aggressive takeover or just executive meddling in the office?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's mold from not bathing regularly.
Or perhaps they are literally green with envy, because everyone like elves better than orcs and goblins.
Hah! Sometimes the simple answers are the best ones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I've always tended to picture orcs as looking like the Star Wars Gamorreans.
Actually in the 1st edition Monster Manual they had heads like pigs or hippoes, didn't they?
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Gruumsh was Gygax's inception for the origin of his (Tolkien-inspired) orcs. And decidedly grey. Grey would be better natural colouring for dirty, burnt, and underground terrain.
Huh, that's interesting to know! I think most modern artists have missed this detail though as the entire Orc pantheon are colored green in the 3e Faiths and Pantheons and the 4e picture of Gruumsh is greenish as well. Oh well!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 15:50:22
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The artists WotC has hired the last several years have not been noted for their adherence to established descriptions... We've seen such things as one of the Seven Sisters having brown hair, drow that were colors other than black, and the one that really bothers me, a character that appeared to be a normal half-elf suddenly looking like a drow.
And on the drow skintone, WotC decided that since artists weren't getting it right, rather than force the artists to depict what they'd been paid to depict, it was better to simply retcon the skintone and change the description. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Dec 2017 15:50:50 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 20:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And on the drow skintone, WotC decided that since artists weren't getting it right, rather than force the artists to depict what they'd been paid to depict, it was better to simply retcon the skintone and change the description.
-Vaguely remember something about the ink not drying/looking right on the paper and ending up more blue than black. And something about outlines. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 21:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And on the drow skintone, WotC decided that since artists weren't getting it right, rather than force the artists to depict what they'd been paid to depict, it was better to simply retcon the skintone and change the description.
-Vaguely remember something about the ink not drying/looking right on the paper and ending up more blue than black. And something about outlines.
I seem to recall the excuse that artists just couldn't get the skintone right -- it was just too difficult. Of course, the Valley of the Mage module from 1980 showed it could be done and had been done for years, but apparently it was beyond the skill of the artists that WotC was hiring in the 2000's.
Thus we wound up with blue drow as an official thing: because WotC either wasn't providing their artists with strict guidelines, or they simply didn't care enough to make sure the art was right. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Dec 2017 21:59:33 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 23:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Mi-Go
why are so many evil races green in color and have pointed ears?
...in Faerun, Orcs and Goblins come from two different pantheons that are opposed and fight each others actively instead of being created by a shared Dark Lord...
Such a great topic! I've always found that there is immense story-telling potential when it comes to Orcs & Goblins, and despite being nearly ubiquitous to fantasy settings there is actually a surprising amount variation in imagery.
The green skinned Orcs & Goblins imagery is definitely central to the Warhammer Fantasy World and Warhammer 40K (which Blizzard reinterpreted as Warcraft and Starcraft)... and some of the AD&D 2E artwork that I remember depicted Orcs as pig-like and hairless with green skin... although the imagery of each subsequent D&D edition moved the Orcs more toward a boar-like hairy gray look... I also seem to remember D&D Goblins being more yellowish in earlier D&D editions, and subsequently moving more toward an orange color...
The pointy ears thing is mostly tied to how the imagery of Angular features is generally more menacing than Rounded features... same reason you put Horns or Spikes on things (to make them scarier)...
I know a lot of the above got covered already, but Regardless there are actually some very good Mythological Lore & Realms Lore related reasons to associate Orcs & Goblins with the color Green...
As far as Realms Lore goes (at least since Nishrek crashed into the Barrens of Doom and Despair), I have taken the position in my campaigns that Orcs & Goblins do have a shared Dark Lord... BANE... and he is the Biggest, Baddest, Greenest, Dark Lord there is... so, although the Orcs & Goblins may come in variety of other skin-tones as well... Orcs & Goblins that are born with Green Skin are seen as Blessed by Bane. Perhaps it is possible that the Orcs that first came to Faerun during the Orcgate Wars were Green, and that after so many generations their skin-tones have become more varied...
As far as Mythological Lore goes, there are some gods that are described or depicted as having Green Skin, these were frequently Wilderness gods and/or Underworld gods... Osiris is the prime example that springs to my mind... and Orcs & Goblins are generally associated with either Barbarian Lands or the Underdark... Also, unsurprisingly Osiris and Bane have a lot of shared imagery.
Bottom Line is that there is no one clear answer on this... Maybe it would be worthwhile to take some time investigating the symbolism associated with the color green, as well as why it is important in various real-world cultures & myths... Then come up with some Home-Brew Lore.
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Edited by - Cyrinishad on 13 Dec 2017 23:18:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2017 : 00:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Mi-Go
why are so many evil races green in color and have pointed ears?
...in Faerun, Orcs and Goblins come from two different pantheons that are opposed and fight each others actively instead of being created by a shared Dark Lord...
Such a great topic! I've always found that there is immense story-telling potential when it comes to Orcs & Goblins, and despite being nearly ubiquitous to fantasy settings there is actually a surprising amount variation in imagery.
The green skinned Orcs & Goblins imagery is definitely central to the Warhammer Fantasy World and Warhammer 40K (which Blizzard reinterpreted as Warcraft and Starcraft)... and some of the AD&D 2E artwork that I remember depicted Orcs as pig-like and hairless with green skin... although the imagery of each subsequent D&D edition moved the Orcs more toward a boar-like hairy gray look... I also seem to remember D&D Goblins being more yellowish in earlier D&D editions, and subsequently moving more toward an orange color...
The pointy ears thing is mostly tied to how the imagery of Angular features is generally more menacing than Rounded features... same reason you put Horns or Spikes on things (to make them scarier)...
I know a lot of the above got covered already, but Regardless there are actually some very good Mythological Lore & Realms Lore related reasons to associate Orcs & Goblins with the color Green...
As far as Realms Lore goes (at least since Nishrek crashed into the Barrens of Doom and Despair), I have taken the position in my campaigns that Orcs & Goblins do have a shared Dark Lord... BANE... and he is the Biggest, Baddest, Greenest, Dark Lord there is... so, although the Orcs & Goblins may come in variety of other skin-tones as well... Orcs & Goblins that are born with Green Skin are seen as Blessed by Bane. Perhaps it is possible that the Orcs that first came to Faerun during the Orcgate Wars were Green, and that after so many generations their skin-tones have become more varied...
As far as Mythological Lore goes, there are some gods that are described or depicted as having Green Skin, these were frequently Wilderness gods and/or Underworld gods... Osiris is the prime example that springs to my mind... and Orcs & Goblins are generally associated with either Barbarian Lands or the Underdark... Also, unsurprisingly Osiris and Bane have a lot of shared imagery.
Bottom Line is that there is no one clear answer on this... Maybe it would be worthwhile to take some time investigating the symbolism associated with the color green, as well as why it is important in various real-world cultures & myths... Then come up with some Home-Brew Lore.
Osiris was a reanimated dead person too... so the green was for a reason... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2017 : 19:36:50
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Maybe a high copper content in the blood of Orcs or Goblins. In human blood, iron is a prominent (and crucial) element component in the blood, which gives human blood the red color.
Oddly enough, copper-based blood is also the explanation long given as to why Star Trek Vulcans have green blood (due to very high oxidized copper content). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2017 : 21:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Maybe a high copper content in the blood of Orcs or Goblins. In human blood, iron is a prominent (and crucial) element component in the blood, which gives human blood the red color.
Oddly enough, copper-based blood is also the explanation long given as to why Star Trek Vulcans have green blood (due to very high oxidized copper content).
But neither example has a skintone dictated by blood composition... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2017 : 00:40:51
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Maybe their cells use copper and not just for blood.
They may have all those copper coins for a reason lol |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2017 : 02:21:31
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| irony is the original idea was that Vulcans were red skinned..... but it showed up as black on early tvs... but all that is irc... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 05:06:55
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My guess is they ate something that didn't agree with them.
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 05:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
5e Goblins are yellow, a decision that I don't like. They tried to make Goblins buffer looking too, to make them scarier.
Erm
. yellow? To me it looks more like a muddy brownish hue. There is an OFFICIAL illustration of a goblin band on the 5e Players Handbook as well as the 5e Starter Set, and they are clearly more of a ruddy tannish-brown skinned complexion. And THAT is fine for me
. since their cousins, the Hobgoblins are said to be closer to reddish-skinned.
It is this illustration below, see the color? It's more of a dirty brown-yellow, not some bright mango yellow. I'm ok with this color for 5e goblins.
http://media.wizards.com/images/dnd/products/Starter_Ex_Art.jpg |
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Topic |
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Why are Orcs and Goblins green?
