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 Avatars of aberration gods during ToT
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

515 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2017 :  20:16:41  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The other option - even more ridiculous in my mind - is that only one avatar of that god was trapped in mortal form and cut off from the rest of the god's power elsewhere. This eliminates the danger to the god, who can just make a new avatar after the crisis is over if needs be.
That's what was stated in Faiths&Avatars. Except the deity could not just make a new avatar within Realmspace, as her access to Realmspace was cut by Ao as consequence of losing this one avatar.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 20 Dec 2017 :  20:42:28  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The other option - even more ridiculous in my mind - is that only one avatar of that god was trapped in mortal form and cut off from the rest of the god's power elsewhere. This eliminates the danger to the god, who can just make a new avatar after the crisis is over if needs be.
That's what was stated in Faiths&Avatars. Except the deity could not just make a new avatar within Realmspace, as her access to Realmspace was cut by Ao as consequence of losing this one avatar.


Except all the gods that were "killed" came back after about 100 years. So Ao's rules were basically bullshit.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
260 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2017 :  06:15:03  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Except all the gods that were "killed" came back after about 100 years. So Ao's rules were basically bullshit.



Except that perfectly lines up with what was described in Spelljammer material about introducing deities to Crystal Spheres they don't have access to: New, sustained worship over a period of time. In the case of the Forgotten Realms, they basically have to re-apply for access to the sphere after bringing in new outside worship.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  13:14:08  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Except all the gods that were "killed" came back after about 100 years. So Ao's rules were basically bullshit.



Except that perfectly lines up with what was described in Spelljammer material about introducing deities to Crystal Spheres they don't have access to: New, sustained worship over a period of time. In the case of the Forgotten Realms, they basically have to re-apply for access to the sphere after bringing in new outside worship.

Jeff


-The majority of the deities (or most notable) that were killed were "native" deities (Mystra, Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, Torm) that just kinda came back.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  16:20:51  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My point exactly, if they can just kinda come back like they all just kinda did, through whatever their various plans were then how much simpler would it be for one with all the power of an active multispheric god pushing their own plans forward. Seems like a huge hole in reasoning to me.
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AuldDragon
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260 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  18:07:12  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The majority of the deities (or most notable) that were killed were "native" deities (Mystra, Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, Torm) that just kinda came back.



There has been a considerable time jump that hasn't been fully detailed; to my knowledge we don't know the how or why they came back. I was pointing out that there is in fact an already existing mechanic for a deity to re-establish themselves in a Crystal Sphere they lost access to, on top of the other existing ways they can return to life. Just because we don't know of other spheres the deities may be worshiped in doesn't mean they don't exist; Malar is a good example of knowing he is a multisphere power without knowing where else he is actually worshiped.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 22 Dec 2017 18:08:08
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  18:31:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The other option - even more ridiculous in my mind - is that only one avatar of that god was trapped in mortal form and cut off from the rest of the god's power elsewhere. This eliminates the danger to the god, who can just make a new avatar after the crisis is over if needs be.
That's what was stated in Faiths&Avatars. Except the deity could not just make a new avatar within Realmspace, as her access to Realmspace was cut by Ao as consequence of losing this one avatar.

Except all the gods that were "killed" came back after about 100 years. So Ao's rules were basically bullshit.

While thats true, the Spellplague and then Sundering was a 'reset' to just before the ToT, and thats why everyone is there. Unfortunately, so are newcomers, like Zehir and tRQ (although both are probably just aspects of previously known deities - Zehir is most certainly Set).

Bane is a special case, and one we can have a lot of fun with. He died, but he came back well before most of the others. I think in this case Wooly is correct - that was really Xvim. At least enough 'Xvim' to allow him to bypass Ao's mandate about 'no more Bane'. So it was Bane, but it also wasn't Bane.

However, Bane was also smart enough to establish himself elsewhere (or we can go with my theory that 'The Bane' is an archtype). Planer Bane was slightly different than FR Bane - we can either chalk that up to time, or my archtype theory (that planer Bane actually came first, which he MUST HAVE, considering he's in all the 4e proto-cosmology).

So when you get the Sundering reset, (our) Bane goes back to being Xvim (and absolutely HATING on that), and Planer Bane enters the Realms ('old Bane' is restored... but he's a little different). Thus, the current Xvim does NOT consider himself related to the current Bane (because he really isn't - thats a new aspect created for FR). What makes matters worse, old Bane (Xvim) is now just an Exarch of New Bane... how that must vex him.

I don't think any of the aberrational gods 'died' during the ToT, so they'd still all have their presences. Think of Worlds as VG servers. All Ao did was disconnect his server from the internet. The 'user' (Gamer) was still out there somewhere, playing on other servers. However, the game was 'still running', and if your avatar died while you were cut-off, you were out-of-luck. You can't even retrieve your items (Hardcore Mode).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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30617 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  18:57:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I don't think any of the aberrational gods 'died' during the ToT, so they'd still all have their presences. Think of Worlds as VG servers. All Ao did was disconnect his server from the internet. The 'user' (Gamer) was still out there somewhere, playing on other servers. However, the game was 'still running', and if your avatar died while you were cut-off, you were out-of-luck. You can't even retrieve your items (Hardcore Mode).



Of course, the divine reset doesn't address issues like deities camping on the corpses of prior deities... Ibrandul comes immediately to mind, there.

It's one of the many reasons I hate the divine reset -- Ibrandul never had any screentime at all before his death, but he died during the ToT, so if Bhaal and Myrkul are back, Ibrandul should be back, too. Yet, so far as I know, there's been no mention of Ibrandul since we first found out he was dead -- which was the same time we found out he existed.

With issues like that, portfolios having changed hands, and the issue of deities that fell before the ToT, the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is just too much of a mess.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Dec 2017 18:59:14
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1588 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  19:54:20  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It also doesn't explain how the three survived in their various states
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30617 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:44:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It also doesn't explain how the three survived in their various states



I didn't assume they had survived -- I assumed that the return was a resurrection.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Dec 2017 21:45:03
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  21:48:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I don't think any of the aberrational gods 'died' during the ToT, so they'd still all have their presences. Think of Worlds as VG servers. All Ao did was disconnect his server from the internet. The 'user' (Gamer) was still out there somewhere, playing on other servers. However, the game was 'still running', and if your avatar died while you were cut-off, you were out-of-luck. You can't even retrieve your items (Hardcore Mode).



Of course, the divine reset doesn't address issues like deities camping on the corpses of prior deities... Ibrandul comes immediately to mind, there.

It's one of the many reasons I hate the divine reset -- Ibrandul never had any screentime at all before his death, but he died during the ToT, so if Bhaal and Myrkul are back, Ibrandul should be back, too. Yet, so far as I know, there's been no mention of Ibrandul since we first found out he was dead -- which was the same time we found out he existed.

With issues like that, portfolios having changed hands, and the issue of deities that fell before the ToT, the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is just too much of a mess.



Actually, one of the modules revolving around the sundering DID have a chosen of Ibrandul.


From Dead in Thay, page 66

102. Temple of Shadows
The shrine of binding takes up most of this black marble chamber, which has no light sources.

Light. Bright light from a source other than a spell of 3rd level or higher becomes dim light in this chamber.
Creatures. Six shadows lurk in this chamber.
Poisoned Shadows. Whenever a living creature in this area takes damage, it must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or it can’t see, as if shrouded in darkness that darkvision can’t penetrate. In addition, any light source the creature has that is not from a 3rd- or higher-level spell is extinguished and can’t be relit until the effect ends 1 minute later. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns to end the effect early, but on each failed saving throw, the creature takes 5 (2d4) poison damage.

Chosen of Ibrandul. A chaotic evil female drow named Ashdra is the Chosen of Ibrandul. Ibrandul is a god of darkness and underground places once primarily worshiped by humans in southern lands such as
Calimshan. He was worshiped as a comforter and protector of those who travel and work in darkness.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Dec 2017 21:54:14
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  22:08:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ao snaps his fingers and new gods form, to take the place of dead ones. Portfolios can now be shared. Glad to see Ibrandul's back though, even if it is in a sideways mention.


This is why I say Ao is MUCH MORE than just the 'Overpower of Realmspace'. Thats part of his job, but only because Realmspace occupies so much of his actual job. I peg him as an Eternal now - something 'beyond' the titles of Estelar or Primordial (so, something different than a god - a god that has power over other gods, but only when it pertains to its specific job description). So if you were to say Ao was a God, then his portfolio would be 'the gods', and thats why he has power over them. It doesn't actually mean he has more power - it just means he has final say on THEM. He's basically one of the 'laws of the universe' made incarnate. Or rather, he represents the abstract of said rules.

So what he does for Realmspace, he can do for any sphere. We just don't hear about him in regards to them, because they don't have as much need for him to intercede. That's how I spin him these days (not that that has ANY impact on the setting itself, other than what is already canon). The Living Tribunal (stolen from Marvel comics) and The LoP are two other Eternals - they sit outside the normal categories. They exist to maintain order among the Gods.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2017 02:18:45
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Lord Karsus
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2986 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  22:30:24  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The majority of the deities (or most notable) that were killed were "native" deities (Mystra, Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, Torm) that just kinda came back.



There has been a considerable time jump that hasn't been fully detailed; to my knowledge we don't know the how or why they came back. I was pointing out that there is in fact an already existing mechanic for a deity to re-establish themselves in a Crystal Sphere they lost access to, on top of the other existing ways they can return to life. Just because we don't know of other spheres the deities may be worshiped in doesn't mean they don't exist; Malar is a good example of knowing he is a multisphere power without knowing where else he is actually worshiped.

Jeff


-Gotcha. Bane, we do know was a multispheric deity, first highlighted in Finder's Bane (and in the core 4e setting), so that rationale may just hold. With the others, there's still blanks, but I think Masked Mage's point was more that Ao does whatever he wants to do, and casually brought back Torm, allowed Mystra to be reborn through Midnight, allowed Bhaal to be reborn through his Bhaalspawn, going against the rules that he was supposedly instituting.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
260 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2017 :  04:26:30  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Gotcha. Bane, we do know was a multispheric deity, first highlighted in Finder's Bane (and in the core 4e setting), so that rationale may just hold. With the others, there's still blanks, but I think Masked Mage's point was more that Ao does whatever he wants to do, and casually brought back Torm, allowed Mystra to be reborn through Midnight, allowed Bhaal to be reborn through his Bhaalspawn, going against the rules that he was supposedly instituting.



Oh, I'm not saying the current situation of bringing back *every* dead deity isn't a mess, just that there is precedence for deities to re-establish themselves because the Time of Troubles was, in essence, local*, and a deity killed in the Realms at that point or later isn't necessarily dead across the multiverse.

Jeff

* I think there would be wider ranging repercussions as complacent deities "woke up" and became more active everywhere. But I also think that is "more fun" from a gaming point of view, as well.

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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BrennonGoldeye
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  17:54:12  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

In 5e they say Ilsensine is a state of mind instead of a God. Being present for ToTs says otherwise.



5E can say what ever it wants. Iisensine cares not and knows of its own Godhood.
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