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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6444 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  12:59:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was Giogi (sp?) Wyvernspur, but that was more of a family 'curse'. Then again, all lycanthropy is a curse... hmmmmm... I may have just proven myself wrong.

I thought I heard of were-dragons as well, but I may just be remembering there are several types of dragons (Greyhawk, Song, etc.) that can turn into humans, so I guess to them, they'd be 'werehumans'.

Mysara had wereswine, which are different than wereboars. I wonder if, in their hybrid form, they could 'blend in' to an orc tribe.



Good catch, but still not quite. Its not lycanthropy. Its using some magic item. Below from the wiki on him, because I wanted to make sure my memory was correct. It appears to be more of a blood tie linkage to a certain family item.

He is capable of transforming into a wyvern when he is in possession of the mummified wyvern's claw that is an heirloom in his family. Only one in every generation is capable of this transformation.

Of the list I gave above, I'm betting most would be frowned upon, except possibly the were-unicorn, were-griffin, and were-pegasi. All of the below, I present as true lycanthropes (as in they control the change).... so in many ways, they would actually just be shapechangers.

There were-unicorn I could see as an affliction that might affect female fey, and they only procreate by actually mating with a true-blood unicorn male. This may be why they are few and far between.

For were-griffins, I could see this being a barbarian tribe that reveres the griffin (such as in Rashemen). Maybe they take on the telthor spirit of a griffin.

The were-pegasi, maybe this would only be found amongst avariel. Of course, giant owls and eagles would work as well.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30624 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  15:24:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dragonrealm books, by Richard A Knaak, had a character called The Gryphon. He was a humanoid with the head of a raptor, and I think he had claws as well.

I think he was originally human, and later got his new appearance thru magic, but I've not read those books since before I lost them in the fire I experienced ten years ago.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  03:24:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

there was that one elf that turned into a dragon in one of the elminster books.
As Wooly already pointed out, that was the mother of Elminster's daughter.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

there was also that one deranged elf girl who took whatever ritual that allowed one to become a dragon/whatever race.
but that was soemn long forgotten magic ritual going on with that iirc.
TWO, actually, that I can remember offhand - there was the Purple Dragon from the Cormyr novels, and also that one in one of Elaine's Harper novels (although in retrospect, considering what that particular dragon was all about, it might be far simpler to retcon it into a Song Dragon).

I had some theories I was trying to piece together, both from folklore and from FR/D&D lore, about how certain creatures with 'fey' connections can turn into dragons, and the 'dragons' themselves (the original, primordial ones) were really just aspects that beings could take by using their emotions as fuel (like 'primal rage', etc). I think the best route to take is to couple extreme emotional states with one of the Seven Deadly Sins (Greed, Jealously, etc). basically, 'draconic' is like a template one can gain from 'dipping into the darkside' (fiendish leanings) if ne has the correct bloodlines.

It may not be 'fey', though, since dwarves really aren't fey (unless we go WAY back and fudge some folklore a bit). D&D dwarves, anyway. So perhaps its some sort of connection to 'earth'? Both dwarves and fey have that connection. There might be a way of connecting the different groups of them to the four elements, like earth-based creatures can become chromatic, while water-based creatures could possibly be metallic (and then we have the gem and ferous for the other two). Lung and Linnorms are really different species altogether.

So under extreme stress/distress, and a severe emotional state, coupled with some sort unhealthy longing or desire ('the sin') would trigger the apotheosis that could turn a normal (demihuman) person into a creature of primal draconic nature. Oh, and magical energy. The transformation needs power to occur... even if this is not provided purposely. I suppose we could take this a step further, and say (because they are not connected to any single element), humans instead take-on an aspect of something more... titanic. Under the same set of unique circumstances, they turn into some sort of hulking brute (Mr.Hyde, The Hulk, Solomon Gundy, Goku's gorilla form, the Titans from Attack on Titan, etc., etc.). Just for shiggles, lets say they grow 1' bigger for each level.

Like I said, its just some stuff I was mentally toying with for awhile. Not sure what to do with it. In my own homebrew world, I have a completely different set of reasons and circumstances for things like lycanthropy and undeath (and its all interconnected... the way I like my setting/lore to be).

So how come no Lycans worship Kelemvor? You'd think it would be a natural fit (him being cursed during life himself).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  03:43:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Purple Dragon was a natural-born black dragon. I believe you're thinking of the Devil Dragon, Nalavara.

I don't recall any dragons in Elaine's books that weren't actual dragons.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  06:37:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The Purple Dragon was a natural-born black dragon. I believe you're thinking of the Devil Dragon, Nalavara.
Yes, thats the one.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't recall any dragons in Elaine's books that weren't actual dragons.
Wasn't there an elf-woman who took dragon-form in that book with Danilo, Arilyn, and Elaith? The one who had or was after that musical instrument? (I think it was a harp, IIRC)

I know there was an actual dragon as well - the one from the High Forest who originally had the harp. But I thought the elf woman became a dragon also, unless i am just remembering it wrong.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4967 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  08:27:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know there was an actual dragon as well - the one from the High Forest who originally had the harp. But I thought the elf woman became a dragon also, unless i am just remembering it wrong.



Garnet Iriador in Elfsong.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30624 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  09:04:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know there was an actual dragon as well - the one from the High Forest who originally had the harp. But I thought the elf woman became a dragon also, unless i am just remembering it wrong.



Garnet Iriador in Elfsong.

-- George Krashos



I don't recall Garnet becoming a dragon... But I can let you know; I'm going to be starting that book today. It's been a while since I read it, and I just finished Elfshadow last night.

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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
351 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  19:21:08  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Mystara had wereswine, which are different than wereboars. I wonder if, in their hybrid form, they could 'blend in' to an orc tribe.



Only in Classic D&D…. which was exceptional in portraying Orcs as a porcine race. They lost the "piggy look" in future editions, judging from the illustrations and even the official miniatures. The later D&D editions adopted an Orc portrayal that more or less copied LOTR movies or even Blizzard Warcraft (remember that the original Warcraft PC game goes back to early 1990s, predating D&D 3E).

Did you know that WizKids is now about to release a "classic D&D miniatures" set? And guess what? The PIG-LOOKING Orcs of classic D&D are back, with their piggish snout and boar tusks. So is the old-school look of Demogorgon, etc. I hate the 5E portrayal of Demogorgon which did away with the baboonish look.

I'm tempted to get this set (I'm an occasional minis collector).


https://www.cardtastic.com.au/database/images/dungeons-dragons-icons-of-the-realms-classic-creatures-box-set-presale-main-5515-5515.jpg

Edited by - moonbeast on 05 Dec 2017 19:25:22
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  22:40:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was unaware of the change in Demogorgon's looks. I would chalk that up to him 'appearing different to different worlds' kind of a thing. I like his new look, but I liked his old look as well, so I am torn.

As for Orcs... Hmmmmm...

Homebrew:
There once was powerful Mage from Nethril by the name of Klazick, who's primary field of study was crossbreeding various species, in order to create the perfect 'servitor' race(s). The Netherese - as well as the Imaskari and several other magical empires now long forgotten - had all tried their hand at this, usually with mixed results, which is why these projects usually get abandoned over time. Klazick was determined to find a way breeding the 'perfect warrior', so young Netherese men did not have to die needlessly in land wars. The orcs were an obvious place to start - they were born fighters. They were lacking a bit in mental faculties, but that could be 'bred out', he thought, by only choosing optimal (intelligent) candidates for his breeding programs (and he had some of those from previous attempts at breeding more 'docile' orcs, by forcing them on captured human and demihuman females... something he kept hidden form other Netherese). He had tried several different variations, including fiendish, simian, ursoid, etc., even 'multi-limbed' (by crossing them with Sahuagin that had that same trait). When the Orcgate opened in the Old Empires he was quick to capture a few dozen specimens, and found them to have superior minds, and a more structured nature (thus lending themselves more easily to being trained in normal army tactics). While he found both the intelligence and ferocity were easily increased, that was not what he was entirely striving for - he wanted warriors that would work well in armies. Too this end, he discovered (or rather, was informed by a colleague) of a group of orcs from another world, just as the superior gray ones were, but these had been used for thousands of years in armies by evil wizards and warlords. Unlike the gray orcs he admired, these would accept any creature who was 'stronger' than them as a leader.

So Klazick opened gates to Oerth (Greyhawk), and 'imported' hundreds of the creatures. He found they weren't quite as intelligent as the Grays, but they were better at following orders (so, more submissive, once properly cowed). He also introduced hundreds of grey and green orcs to Greyhawk, in the hopes of improving the species there as well. He was not allowed to train the creatures he was breeding in a flying enclave, so he had his own 'groundling' compound, and there he set to work for over a century. Unfortunately, as is usually the case, the 'cure' turned out to be worse than the illness. Everywhere he attempted to 'install' his submissive orcs, they either were killed-off by tribes of native orcs or other creatures, or joined with those other tribes. Apparently, once out of sight of 'their master', such orcs found the next most powerful creature to listen to.

His life's work a dismal failure, Klazick became a embittered old man. At least, until his former enclave fell on his head... and everyone else's in town. Netheril had fallen. But the legend of the silly mage who thought he could breed 'better orcs' still persists in some form, for porcine-looking groups are often referred to as 'Klazick Orcs', even if the reasons why have been buried beneath the sands of Anauroch. Large groups of them can still be found in the Stonelands, the Cormyr mountains, and in the Moonsea North.




"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2017 22:46:40
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  23:00:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Addendum to the above, to keep it 'on topic' -

In one of his experiments, he crossed his 'piggy' orcs with human females, hoping to increase their intelligence. He struck upon the idea of having them 'go Berserk' in battle, even changing form, but being more human-like the rest of the time. Thus, he laid a series of specifically worded curses upon the wombs of the pregnant mothers. What he created were something else entirely... something quite 'wretched', even by his standards.

Wereswine are still very rare in The Realms. After he realized just how terrible they had turned out, Klazick abandoned them, along with the orc fathers and poor human (and demihuman) mothers. Somehow, though, they managed to survive, and build their own settlement on top of the hidden Netherese laboratory complex. No-one today knows where this 'secret village of wereswine' existed, or if it even still exists, but occasionally the creatures are discovered, living in other settlements, hidden among the normal inhabitants. Their taste for human flesh forces them to move around frequently though, so Sages believe that far more incidents of 'unexplained disappearances' can be attributed to this group of sneaky creatures than is generally thought.

Knowledgeable persons who are aware of Krazick and his mad breeding programs sometimes attribute wolfweres as one of his early creations (and failures), while others argue that the wolfweres are a more 'natural' creature that first appeared in the Eastern Realms. When asked, Elminster merely replies, "why can't both be true? magic and Life are deeply connected, and there is no limit to the possibilities."

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2017 23:05:43
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sfdragon
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2086 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2017 :  00:25:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
eh NO. not that dragon.

some male elf in one of the earlier elminster books, the one or the one right after elminster was a woman.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2017 :  09:05:25  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Elminster did meet a elf taking the shape of a dragon while a woman, yes.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2017 :  22:00:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm surprised that ZeromaruX didn't chime-in here, since I got this from that (canon) thing he wrote -
quote:
Jackalweres were born when a tribe of humans almost destroy a pack of primal jackals. The primal spirit Dark Sister transformed these jackals into jackalweres. (MM3, p.120)


If any of you haven't read his History of the Nentir Vale, you really SHOULD. It covers EVERYTHING. Its over a 100 pages long, and the whole first half is just the 'History of the D&Dverse'. There are quite a few things I disagree with, but canon is canon.

Also, this (4e) canon version doesn't disagree with my own - I've been saying they were their own race. This just gave them a creation myth.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2017 22:01:20
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2017 :  22:14:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is in fact, a lot of stories about how werewolves came to be in NV canon, but they aren't Realmsian. The only that apply to the Realms is perhaps the one about the Primal Beast raising mortals to the status of "were-beasts" to defend themselves during the Dawn War.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30624 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  01:55:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An idea of mine, for how werewolves came to be:

A female lythari (obviously in elf-form) got pregnant by a human. The half-lythari child wasn't overly welcomed by his elven kin, and he had problems with the transformation to wolf; both of these things lead to some serious anger issues on his part. He felt isolated from the lythari people he grew up with, so he left home and lived among the humans. One day he was attacked by a group of humans for being a freak; he snapped, shifted to wolf, and slaughtered them. He continued on a rampage, killing everything he came across -- at which point Malar saw him and "blessed" him by making him the first werewolf.

Nothing in canon supports this; it's just an idea of mine.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6444 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  13:11:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

An idea of mine, for how werewolves came to be:

A female lythari (obviously in elf-form) got pregnant by a human. The half-lythari child wasn't overly welcomed by his elven kin, and he had problems with the transformation to wolf; both of these things lead to some serious anger issues on his part. He felt isolated from the lythari people he grew up with, so he left home and lived among the humans. One day he was attacked by a group of humans for being a freak; he snapped, shifted to wolf, and slaughtered them. He continued on a rampage, killing everything he came across -- at which point Malar saw him and "blessed" him by making him the first werewolf.

Nothing in canon supports this; it's just an idea of mine.



I like this.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14855 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2017 :  17:22:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So do I.

Its along the same lines as how werewolves came to be in my completely homebrew setting (which, BTW, I have never done a map for, strangey enough. I started one once, about a decade ago, but then quickly gave up on it - my skills back then weren't up to the task of creating a setting whole-cloth).

Basically, it all goes back to an ancient (pretty much dead/defunct) race, similar to the Batrachi. They had something called 'Morphic Blood', and by infusing some of this into other races (who were just primitive 'cave people' back then), they were able to create strange offshoots. Fast forward some tens of thousands of years and there is a Gray (Eladrin) like race of elves - very reclusive, look at humans like animals, that sort of thing - that are like lythari (except that they can take the shape of their 'spirit animal', which is a wolf in a lot of cases, but there are plenty of other types as well). These Elves (Olvaci) cannot pass their ability onto humans they breed with (nor would any of them willingly breed with humans). Except when morphic blood is involved (there is a whole storyline concerning another group of elf-like people who become 'tyrants of the world', like Moorcock's Melniboeans, and those people managed to find and use the Morphic Blood, which is why it is still around). A bunch of desperate humans use it, and also do some vile things to some captured elves, just so they have a defense against another group of humans who also used the blood in a different fashion (there is a region that is very similar to Warhammer's 'Vampire counts'). Ones that are able to control the change and survive become werebears, and protectors of the community. The ones that can't control the change go berserk (become werewolves), and outcasts. Also, only about 10% even survived at all - the rest died, or became... other things. Of course, that means at the beginning of this 'project' there would have only been a handful of both (surviving) types, but over the years they've 'bred true'(bloodlines) and have become decent number. You can see how that didn't help human/elf relations any.

Thats just a tiny snippet of an over-arching storyline involving those 'ebil elves', and dozens of other groups. I've managed to take a lot of different folklore and weave it together in a cohesive setting. And just as in Eberron (and 100 other settings), the 'Great war' that defeated the dark empire was a century ago, and things are still 'shaking themselves out' with all the different groups (many allied to fight the common threat, but ancient hatreds run deep).

So, for a guy who doesn't like the 'Lovecraftian' flavor, and isn't big on horror at all, my most basic premise relies on an ancient, cthulhu-esqu race, and lots of 'gothic-horror' type creatures running around. Go figure.

Oh, and its got choo-choos. I love choo-choos. Chuga-chuga-chuga...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2017 17:27:09
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