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tmcvicar2
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Nov 2017 : 15:17:55
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Was pondering placing the werewolf island from Baldur's Gate:Tales of the Sword Coast in my campaign and came up with a few questions for discussion.
Unless I am mistaken, wolfweres are the offspring of werewolves and natural wolves, yet there is supposedly a great enmity between wolfweres and werewolves.How would you reconcile this?
If a Selune worshipping "good" werewolf bred with a wolf, would this then produce a "good" wolfwere?
Do wolfweres breed true? Meaning, do 2 wolfweres who mate produce a wolfwere offspring?
I am assuming for the backstory that the population of the island, both the wolfweres and werewolves are descendants of the crew of Balduran's wrecked ship, who were infected either before wrecking (probably why the ship wrecked) or after arriving on the island and that most of the resultant werewolves were good aligned one. A few were evil and fled into the interior of the island were they bred with local wolves, producing the wolfwere population which eventually killed off the evil werewolves and now exist in a state of cold war with the good aligned werewolves.
I am using sao miguel island in the Azores as a base for my island. The actual island runs east to west but i am flipping it and having it run north to south. It is 39 miles long by about 10 miles wide.
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Ancestors could hear
What is happening now
They would turn in their graves
They would all be ashamed
That the land of the free
Has been written in chains
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
Iron Maiden "The Clansman" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2017 : 21:17:45
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I'm not sure where you got your info, or if its correct or not, or even what the 'correct' version is anymore. But Eberron does throw a little extra into the mix with shifters, who are human-lycanthrope hybrids.
So here is my personal take - Werewolves are werewolves. I do have some backstory as to where they came from originally (and it IS related to vampires - I'm a fan of the Underworld series - but that really applies more to my 100% homebrew world and not FR). I'm not a huge fan of strict alignments per race (its more like a very generalized suggestion), and since Lycans come form human (and demihuman) stock, they should also run the gamut of alignments (albeit their 'condition', and folks reaction to it, would turn even the nicest people at least neutral over time).
When humans and Lycans mix, the curse is passed on. Which each succeeding generation, however, the 'DNA' (if you will) blends together better, and they begin to become Shifters. Lets say 10% accumulative chance for each successive 'breeding' between a Lycan (even one with previous human blood) and normal human to produce an Eberron-style Shifter. So 10 generations in its a 100% chance, so long as the interbreeding continues (a Lycan and a Lycan - both with true-human bloodlines - 'might' want to average the chances between them... thats a DM call). Even with magic, its a case of the curse getting 'watered down' by the interbreeding, and evolving into something new. And just for the record, i say that the curse doesn't even kick-in until the child is around 7 or 8 (because baby werewolves might be cute, but a pre-toddler isn't going to suddenly start walking when it becomes a puppy). I would say the same for Shifters (I have no clue what the actual Eberron ruling is on that).
Now, Wolfweres. IMO they aren't at all what you say they are. If thats the official take on them, it doesn't make much sense. I consider them their own species, and as such, they are actually evil Hengeyokai from Kara-Tur that have emigrated into Faerûn over the millennia. To go a bit further with conjecture, I don't actually consider hengeyokai 'oriental', even though that's the most common cultural setting we see them in. There are a few other animals-that-can-become-men in western folklore as well, and I think they are ALL part of the 'fey' group (although separated by so many thousands of years they probably don't even recognize themselves as 'fey' anymore... although technically they are 'kami', and that's the same thing anyway). They probably migrated out of the Taan region around 10K years ago, if I had to guess (there are some wolf-related things going on there, not the least of which is a major sub-group of lythari). In fact, if you want to go in a different direction, maybe modern-day wolfweres are a type of gnoll lycanthrope, dating back to when they had a huge empire across the south. So in other words, the Wolfweres could possibly be to gnolls what Shifters are to humans (thousands of years of evolution and a curse becoming 'washed out' until a new sub=species is created). Personally, I prefer just thinking of them as hengyokai - its simpler.
HERE is what I assume is the official take on them, and it doesn't mention anywhere them being 'created' from another group. They seem to be they're own species, with no relation to werewolves. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2017 21:24:25 |
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tmcvicar2
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 00:12:53
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Markus, I got it here, which is the link you posted and it does state they are the offspring of werewolves and normal wolves. It however has no citation and i can find that bit of info nowhere else.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wolfwere
I am going to disregard that info as it appears to be completely random.
|
Ancestors could hear
What is happening now
They would turn in their graves
They would all be ashamed
That the land of the free
Has been written in chains
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
Iron Maiden "The Clansman" |
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tmcvicar2
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 00:25:34
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Wolfwere description from S4: The Lost caverns of Tsojcanth (1982)
Inhabiting out-of-way places, the hated and feared wolfwere is the bane of humans and demi-humans alike, for it is able to take the form of a man or woman of considerable charisma. In either its true shape or human shape, the wolfwere slyly hunts, slays, and devours its favored prey - men, halflings, elves, etc.
A wolfwere will usually (75%) run with a pack of normal wolves (30%) or worgs (70%). When strong prey is encountered, the wolfwere will slip away to its lair, don human garb, and approach the victims in the guise of a pilgrim, minstrel, tinker, or similar wanderer.
The powerful jaws of this creature can deliver terrible bites. Additionally, the wolfwere can half-change, gain human-likearmsand legs, and wield a human weapon to augment its biting attack.
Its most feared attack is its song. After listening for one round, listeners are overcome with lethargy, just as if they had been affected by a slow spell, unless each makes a saving throw versus Spell. The lethargy lasts for 5-8 rounds, and cannot be countered once it takes effect. The wolfwere often disguises itself as a minstrel so that its singing will not arouse suspicion.
The monster can be hit only by cold-wrought iron weapons or those equal to +1 or better magic. It must be noted that a great enmity exists between wolfwere and werewolves. The wolfwere are disgusted by wolfsbane and shun it if possible.
Wolfwere description from Monstrous Compendium Vol 1 (1989) and Monstrous Manual (1993)
The wolfwere is an evil and hateful creature that delights in the brutal slaying of humans and demihumans alike. In many cases, the wolfwere is able to attack its victims with utter surprise because of its ability to assume the shape of a human of exceptional charisma.
The wolfwere is able to assume a wide variety of shapes at will. Transformation from one form to another takes only a single round. Its true shape, and that in which it prefers to spend the vast majority of its time, is that of a large wolf. When in this state, it is almost indistinguishable from a dire wolf.
When a wolfwere is attempting to lure humans or demihumans into an ambush, it will assume the shape of member of their race. Almost without exception, the new persona will not be of the same sex as the potential victim. Thus, a wolfwere which is stalking a male elf will transform itself into a female elf. In all cases, the newly disguised wolfwere will have exceptional physical beauty.
Combat: The wolfwere is a sly and dangerous adversary. In addition to its great fury and fighting prowess, its high intelligence must not be overlooked or underestimated.
When a wolfwere first spots unsuspecting humans or demihumans in its territory, it will change into its fully humanoid form and assume the guise of a pilgrim, minstrel, or similar wanderer. The wolfwere will normally carry some form of stringed instrument which it seems to absent-mindedly play at while it travels. The true nature of its song, however, is terrible and often fatal. Anyone who hears the wolfwere’s song and then fails a saving throw vs. spell will be overcome with lethargy. The effects of this enchantment are the same as those of the slow spell. Once this effect begins, it cannot be countered and lasts for 5-8 rounds.
When a wolfwere is ready to attack, the creature again changes its shape. Now, in a form which is half-wolf and half-human (or demihuman), it strikes. The wolfwere will almost always change into this form when it engages in combat because it has the ability to bite like a wolf and also wield a weapon of some type.
In any form but its fully humanoid one, the creature can deliver a savage bite with its powerful jaws. It is this mode of attack which the monster prefers to employ above all others.
When in its humanoid or half-humanoid state, it is also able to carry and employ weapons. Although the exact type of weapon used will depend upon the specific tastes of the creature encountered, wolfweres tend toward axes, swords, and similar cutting edges.
If the creature is forced to engage in battle while in its humanoid form, it will be forced to rely wholly on its weapons for defense. In such cases, it normally seeks to escape and transform into its half-humanoid state before returning to battle.
The magical nature of the wolfwere makes it immune to damage inflicted by any weapon which is not made from cold wrought iron or enchanted to +1 or better. All other weapons are simply turned aside by the creature’s hide.
It is possible to protect oneself from attacks by wolfweres, however, for they are disgusted by wolfsbane and will avoid it whenever possible.
Habitat/Society: The wolfwere is generally fairly solitary in nature. When encountered in the wild, it is rare that more than three of these creatures will be found. In almost all cases, encounters with more than one wolfwere will be with a mated pair or a group which has decided to work together to increase the success of their hunting.
Ecology: There is a 75% chance that any encountered wolfwere will be running with a pack of wild wolves. In such cases, the animals will be worgs 70% of the time. If they are not worgs, they will be common wolves. In all cases, the influence of the wolfwere will make the creatures far more vicious and evil than they might normally be.
Despite their fondness for wolves and worgs, wolfweres loathe the company of werewolves. The enmity between these two monsters is so great that they will often attack each other on sight.
Nothing about being the offspring of werewolves at all.
|
Ancestors could hear
What is happening now
They would turn in their graves
They would all be ashamed
That the land of the free
Has been written in chains
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
Iron Maiden "The Clansman" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 01:34:34
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| Yeah, not sure where that idea of wolfweres coming from wolf/werewolf breeding.... if I were to try and develop a story for the two races, it would be that werewolves are born of a curse. The wolfwere's I'd have as a form of animal created by an ancient tribe of humans that bonded their spirits with wolves in order to able to take on the shape of a wolf, but when they died their spirits joined with the wolf's, allowing the living wolf to take on a human form. These wolfweres then bred with other wolves, and periodically a wolfwere is born of this union. I'd have these wolfwere growing up kind of like Mowgli on the outskirts of civilization, and possibly as a child under a full moon or something the lose their natural shape and instead become humanoid (or possibly for a few days out of a month). Maybe they'd eventually gain control of this, but this time where they can't is maybe where they learn to manipulate other humans. Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 03:23:22
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| Is Shifter strictly an Eberron thing? Or did that race/type officially get adopted into the FR setting at some point? |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 07:55:40
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| see 4e for that one of may things that was shoehorned... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 03:30:23
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I wonder if the werewolf + wolf crossbreeding idea is a legacy of Jim Ward's Pools of Darkness novel as that is mentioned in the FRWiki article?
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Is Shifter strictly an Eberron thing? Or did that race/type officially get adopted into the FR setting at some point?
There was a 4E DDi article that provided some background options for shifters from the Realms. Personally, I don't think they were "shoehorned" in; they feel like they belong. YMMV. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
Edited by - Derulbaskul on 28 Nov 2017 03:35:13 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 10:18:02
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created in 3.x for ebberron along with teh changling, the goliaths and some other dumb odd ball race that I forget its name.
ask me the only good thing about eberron was teh shifter and changeling ...
and back on the topic of were whatnots.
I always thought that a whatsnotwere came into existance when it was bitten by a werewhatsnot or a wahtsnotwere |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 28 Nov 2017 10:19:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 19:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
created in 3.x for ebberron along with teh changling, the goliaths and some other dumb odd ball race that I forget its name.
ask me the only good thing about eberron was teh shifter and changeling ...
and back on the topic of were whatnots.
I always thought that a whatsnotwere came into existance when it was bitten by a werewhatsnot or a wahtsnotwere
Goliaths were not an Eber-whatsit race, I don't believe -- I think they came from one of the racial splatbooks.
In my opinion, shifters -- as someone descended from more fully-wereblooded individuals -- are a logical idea; I've proposed it myself. And changelings could be descended from half-doppelgangers. Warforged aren't quite the natural evolution the other two are, but I've got my suggestions for working them in. I think the other race was kalashtar; I've not paid enough attention to them to figure out whether or not they can be made to fit into the Realms.
As for wolfweres... Various bits of real-world folklore have animals able to assume human form; so that isn't too much of a stretch for me. If I had to, I'd say that Malar gave the ability to wolfweres, so that they could more readily infiltrate and prey on human communities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2017 20:06:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 19:54:11
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Yeah, I just checked all relevant sources as well (different edition MM's), and the only place it seems to say they are the offspring of werewolves and wolves is in that adventure.
Plus, lets use some logic here. Werewolves are humans that have a curse. Exactly HOW MANY of these rarely-cursed humans will turn out to be into bestiality? They are still humans inside - I think they'd find the idea of mating with a wolf kind of repugnant. And during those few days when the change is forced upon them, they are more into a primal frenzy (and feeding) than wanting to get a piece of tail (quite literally). Plus, wolves travel in packs, and do NOT like outsiders, so when is this werewolf catching a wolf of the opposite sex alone, and getting them to do the nasty, with something that is not of their species (I would think a natural wolf could tell the difference).
Is it still possible that it can/does happen? Sure... but not enough for it to have gotten its own MM entry over multiple editions. Unless they breed true, they'd be nearly as rare as the terrasque.
What I would say is that in the very rare event that such a breeding took place, it is possible for some of the pups to come out mutants, and they would be similar enough to wolfweres to be able to use that write-up.
Of course, an animal that has an abnormal child will kill it at birth, so there's that. We'd have to assume the first change into human form doesn't occur until later in life, as it does with lycanthropes (although perhaps not as old as seven or eight, because these things would be wolves that can take the form of humans, so they'd be measured in 'dog years', or maybe some average of the two). regardless, a wolfwere 'adult' in human form would probably only be a few real years old, and thus not have the (human) emotional maturity a normal human of their apparent age does (I'm just not picturing a 1-year-old wolf acting like a responsible human adult... even if this IS fantasy). And of course I am talking about the hypothetical wolfwere-like hybrid creature, not what I think they really are (a separate species entirely). Its a good thing they have a solitary nature because villages of these things could spread very quickly.
Also, just now re-reading the 2e entry, It talks about the rare 'mated pairs', so if they mate with each other, that also puts the kabosh on them all being hybrids. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2017 19:23:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 20:00:53
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Yeah, I personally LOATHE Goliaths. We had perfectly acceptable firbolgs, which are much cooler, fill the exact same niche, and were already established in the lore (both RAS and Troy Denning have written lots about them). Why someone thought an ugly, lumpy brute needed to be added to D&D is beyond me. We even had Athas' half-giants that also filled the same role. What a waste of good lore. 
But Golaiths, unfortunately, don't appear ANYWHERE (canonically) accept the Realms. Shifters were Eberron, but I believe they became 'core' in 4e, which means that they are available in all D&D settings now.
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
I wonder if the werewolf + wolf crossbreeding idea is a legacy of Jim Ward's Pools of Darkness novel as that is mentioned in the FRWiki article?
As I said, I am perfectly happy accepting an extremely rare hybrid monster that is so similar to a wolfwere (same stats) that Sages don't even realize there is a difference, hence the confusion.
So its a Wolfwere... but its not.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2017 20:03:05 |
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Martinsky
Acolyte
Canada
34 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 07:23:00
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It was always confusing in Baldur's gate about werewolf and wolfwere, I assumed they was the same but now that intriguing how they can have been both on the same island? After reading that link http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Balduran Maybe the clue it the cursed lord inflicted lycantropy of both form in purpose that he know they will fight each other. Or maybe that just a flaw from the game and the designer confused both.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 13:56:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky
It was always confusing in Baldur's gate about werewolf and wolfwere, I assumed they was the same but now that intriguing how they can have been both on the same island? After reading that link http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Balduran Maybe the clue it the cursed lord inflicted lycantropy of both form in purpose that he know they will fight each other. Or maybe that just a flaw from the game and the designer confused both.
Or wolfweres were already there as part of some primitive culture that revered wolves and somehow "joined" with them centuries/millennia ago and then some infected werewolves landed. Its not a far stretch. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 19:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky
It was always confusing in Baldur's gate about werewolf and wolfwere, I assumed they was the same but now that intriguing how they can have been both on the same island? After reading that link http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Balduran Maybe the clue it the cursed lord inflicted lycantropy of both form in purpose that he know they will fight each other. Or maybe that just a flaw from the game and the designer confused both.
When I used the Baldur's gate VG maps in my last Sword Coast map, I had adapted the coastline to include the features from the VG, and so that last map done in the '2e style' had that island on it... I think. I never played the game. I never played ANY D&D video games. Weird, eh?
*Actually, I just checked, and the map I used has an island on it that says 'Gnolls' (with a picture of what I assume a VG gnoll looks like . Looks more like an angry mouse to me). So I guess that's not even the same island at all. Any info on where the island is/was? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Martinsky
Acolyte
Canada
34 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 00:24:59
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No that not the Island, in fact it not even an Island, that just a small river crossable with a small bridge. I checked some official map and that river dont seem to apear. So where the mouse gnoll in the SW corner is, that the Gnoll fortress. It was an abandonned fortress in ruins squatted by gnoll band. That where the famous Dynaeyr was kept captive. That was the main quest from Minsc and his famous space hamster Boo.
I will have to run the game to check if it was on any map, but if I remember it was not on the map. Not sure I have a saved game with the location unlocked neither. ANyway here a link to the video when you board the ship going there that not much there neither; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3NKcfPvAW4
And the link to the walktrough, they just say somewhere in the Trackless sea; http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Isle_of_Balduran |
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tmcvicar2
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 00:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess that's not even the same island at all. Any info on where the island is/was?
All it mentions in game and the BG Wiki is that it was somewhere in the trackless sea. Obviously somewhere along a route from Anchorome to Faerun. |
Ancestors could hear
What is happening now
They would turn in their graves
They would all be ashamed
That the land of the free
Has been written in chains
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
Iron Maiden "The Clansman" |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 11:40:17
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Werewolves can be good and evil. Goodly aligned ones (who try to reject their bestial side in most cases) tend to follow Selune, while those who follow their bestial urges follow Malar.
I remember one story in a book, where a seer mentions that if a house dog is not tied up on the night of the full moon it will get out and mate with a werewolf, getting knocked up with a wolfwere offspring. He also says the wolfwere would be a terrible danger to the area, causing death and destruction, unless the floating city which returned from the Shadow Plan reaches that area, in which case the wolfwere would be one of their greatest champions.
Fun fact: Were is an Olde English word for Man, making Were-wolf mean man-wolf
If for your story you want to have the reason the saliors got cursed was a Malar worshipping Werewolf was on board when the moon went full, it would make sense. Most of the saliors turn to Selune to help them control the curse, and those who embrace it flee to the interior, breeding wolfwere and raising them to follow Malar. |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
Edited by - Corruption on 01 Dec 2017 11:40:45 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 18:48:15
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Beware the bite of the rabid werejackalope!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 21:26:43
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You know whats funny about that? I don't think I've ever seena were-something that wasn't based on a RW creature. Why DON'T we have lycanthropes based on mythical creatures/cryptids as well?
quote:
Originally posted by tmcvicar2
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess that's not even the same island at all. Any info on where the island is/was?
All it mentions in game and the BG Wiki is that it was somewhere in the trackless sea. Obviously somewhere along a route from Anchorome to Faerun.
So, ummmm... like Evermeet? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 23:20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I personally LOATHE Goliaths. We had perfectly acceptable firbolgs, which are much cooler, fill the exact same niche, and were already established in the lore (both RAS and Troy Denning have written lots about them). Why someone thought an ugly, lumpy brute needed to be added to D&D is beyond me. We even had Athas' half-giants that also filled the same role. What a waste of good lore.
But Golaiths, unfortunately, don't appear ANYWHERE (canonically) accept the Realms. Shifters were Eberron, but I believe they became 'core' in 4e, which means that they are available in all D&D settings now.
Since I don't know firbolgs at all, I looked up the forgottenrealms.wikia article on them, and saw all the clan names is modern Norwegian: "holy brother" "cape brother" and "warrior brother". Ten foot tall Norwegian speaking giants, jay! 
(ps, Kriggabror should be "Krigarbror") |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 00:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know whats funny about that? I don't think I've ever seena were-something that wasn't based on a RW creature. Why DON'T we have lycanthropes based on mythical creatures/cryptids as well?
Yeah, I've wondered about that in the past... and its always the same kinds of creatures too... boars, bears, wolves, "great cats", and rats..... at least over in Kara-Tur they started changing it up a little with were-monkeys and such.... but why not a were-griffon, were-pegasi, were-unicorn, were-manticore, were-gorgon, were-chimera. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 02:50:56
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There was Giogi (sp?) Wyvernspur, but that was more of a family 'curse'. Then again, all lycanthropy is a curse... hmmmmm... I may have just proven myself wrong.
I thought I heard of were-dragons as well, but I may just be remembering there are several types of dragons (Greyhawk, Song, etc.) that can turn into humans, so I guess to them, they'd be 'werehumans'.
Mystara had wereswine, which are different than wereboars. I wonder if, in their hybrid form, they could 'blend in' to an orc tribe. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2017 02:51:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 04:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was Giogi (sp?) Wyvernspur, but that was more of a family 'curse'. Then again, all lycanthropy is a curse... hmmmmm... I may have just proven myself wrong.
I thought I heard of were-dragons as well, but I may just be remembering there are several types of dragons (Greyhawk, Song, etc.) that can turn into humans, so I guess to them, they'd be 'werehumans'.
Weredragons are song dragons -- they were originally published as weredragons (though the write-up explicitly states the name is not accurate, and they are not in any way lycanthropes), but were later renamed song dragons.
It's suggested in the original Draconomicon (curses to WotC's habit of reusing product names!) that steel dragons and Greyhawk dragons are related. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 08:54:38
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there was that one elf that turned into a dragon in one of the elminster books.
there was also that one deranged elf girl who took whatever ritual that allowed one to become a dragon/whatever race.
but that was soemn long forgotten magic ritual going on with that iirc .
the only instance I ever heard of weredragons was a cult of the dragon was looking into making one |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 10:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there was that one elf that turned into a dragon in one of the elminster books.
there was also that one deranged elf girl who took whatever ritual that allowed one to become a dragon/whatever race.
but that was soemn long forgotten magic ritual going on with that iirc .
the only instance I ever heard of weredragons was a cult of the dragon was looking into making one
If I remember correctly, Elminster's Daughter included a song dragon character, as did the Rogue Dragons trilogy.
Weredragons -- the original name we saw used for song dragons -- were first published in Dragon 134, June of 1988. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 12:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was Giogi (sp?) Wyvernspur, but that was more of a family 'curse'. Then again, all lycanthropy is a curse... hmmmmm... I may have just proven myself wrong.
I thought I heard of were-dragons as well, but I may just be remembering there are several types of dragons (Greyhawk, Song, etc.) that can turn into humans, so I guess to them, they'd be 'werehumans'.
Mysara had wereswine, which are different than wereboars. I wonder if, in their hybrid form, they could 'blend in' to an orc tribe.
Good catch, but still not quite. Its not lycanthropy. Its using some magic item. Below from the wiki on him, because I wanted to make sure my memory was correct. It appears to be more of a blood tie linkage to a certain family item.
He is capable of transforming into a wyvern when he is in possession of the mummified wyvern's claw that is an heirloom in his family. Only one in every generation is capable of this transformation.
Of the list I gave above, I'm betting most would be frowned upon, except possibly the were-unicorn, were-griffin, and were-pegasi. All of the below, I present as true lycanthropes (as in they control the change).... so in many ways, they would actually just be shapechangers.
There were-unicorn I could see as an affliction that might affect female fey, and they only procreate by actually mating with a true-blood unicorn male. This may be why they are few and far between.
For were-griffins, I could see this being a barbarian tribe that reveres the griffin (such as in Rashemen). Maybe they take on the telthor spirit of a griffin.
The were-pegasi, maybe this would only be found amongst avariel. Of course, giant owls and eagles would work as well.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 15:24:49
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The Dragonrealm books, by Richard A Knaak, had a character called The Gryphon. He was a humanoid with the head of a raptor, and I think he had claws as well.
I think he was originally human, and later got his new appearance thru magic, but I've not read those books since before I lost them in the fire I experienced ten years ago. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2017 : 03:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there was that one elf that turned into a dragon in one of the elminster books.
As Wooly already pointed out, that was the mother of Elminster's daughter.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there was also that one deranged elf girl who took whatever ritual that allowed one to become a dragon/whatever race.
but that was soemn long forgotten magic ritual going on with that iirc.
TWO, actually, that I can remember offhand - there was the Purple Dragon from the Cormyr novels, and also that one in one of Elaine's Harper novels (although in retrospect, considering what that particular dragon was all about, it might be far simpler to retcon it into a Song Dragon).
I had some theories I was trying to piece together, both from folklore and from FR/D&D lore, about how certain creatures with 'fey' connections can turn into dragons, and the 'dragons' themselves (the original, primordial ones) were really just aspects that beings could take by using their emotions as fuel (like 'primal rage', etc). I think the best route to take is to couple extreme emotional states with one of the Seven Deadly Sins (Greed, Jealously, etc). basically, 'draconic' is like a template one can gain from 'dipping into the darkside' (fiendish leanings) if ne has the correct bloodlines.
It may not be 'fey', though, since dwarves really aren't fey (unless we go WAY back and fudge some folklore a bit). D&D dwarves, anyway. So perhaps its some sort of connection to 'earth'? Both dwarves and fey have that connection. There might be a way of connecting the different groups of them to the four elements, like earth-based creatures can become chromatic, while water-based creatures could possibly be metallic (and then we have the gem and ferous for the other two). Lung and Linnorms are really different species altogether.
So under extreme stress/distress, and a severe emotional state, coupled with some sort unhealthy longing or desire ('the sin') would trigger the apotheosis that could turn a normal (demihuman) person into a creature of primal draconic nature. Oh, and magical energy. The transformation needs power to occur... even if this is not provided purposely. I suppose we could take this a step further, and say (because they are not connected to any single element), humans instead take-on an aspect of something more... titanic. Under the same set of unique circumstances, they turn into some sort of hulking brute (Mr.Hyde, The Hulk, Solomon Gundy, Goku's gorilla form, the Titans from Attack on Titan, etc., etc.). Just for shiggles, lets say they grow 1' bigger for each level.
Like I said, its just some stuff I was mentally toying with for awhile. Not sure what to do with it. In my own homebrew world, I have a completely different set of reasons and circumstances for things like lycanthropy and undeath (and its all interconnected... the way I like my setting/lore to be).
So how come no Lycans worship Kelemvor? You'd think it would be a natural fit (him being cursed during life himself). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2017 : 03:43:34
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The Purple Dragon was a natural-born black dragon. I believe you're thinking of the Devil Dragon, Nalavara.
I don't recall any dragons in Elaine's books that weren't actual dragons. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2017 : 06:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Purple Dragon was a natural-born black dragon. I believe you're thinking of the Devil Dragon, Nalavara.
Yes, thats the one.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall any dragons in Elaine's books that weren't actual dragons.
Wasn't there an elf-woman who took dragon-form in that book with Danilo, Arilyn, and Elaith? The one who had or was after that musical instrument? (I think it was a harp, IIRC)
I know there was an actual dragon as well - the one from the High Forest who originally had the harp. But I thought the elf woman became a dragon also, unless i am just remembering it wrong. |
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Wolfweres/Werewolves
