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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  20:36:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I am not even thinking about a map yet - just want to keep Slevas' Ulgarth thread 'clean'.

So my thoughts ow are focusing on how two moonshae-like cultures arrived in the Utter east: The ffolk, and the Northmen. in the other thread I proposed a weird theory that celtic Culure actually originated on Abeir (which could mean Abeir-Toril, which could mean FIRST World, which could mean proto-Celtic culture first came about in 'Midgard', or rather, the once flat, united Material Plane.

Its a stretch, and I hate having one of my favorite Earth-cultures put-off to another world, but in reality, I'm not, since it was all ONE World back then. Anyone familiar with the novel series Saga of pliocene Exile will get where I'm going. It would a lot like that, but on a theoretical 'First World', rather than Earth's own pliocene era (or to look at it another way, THAT version of Earth's pliocene actually happened in the first World... in fact, dinosaurs {behemoths} would have definitely been around n that world!)


Anyhow, all i am really looking for is a cheap way out to explain why their is a yet another Celt-like culture so far afield, where it doesn't belong. At this point I think I'd rather connect it to Sunderings/Spellplagues/Cosmic conjunctions than another group kidnapped by the Imaskari. They're starting to turn into comical, mustache-twirling villains at this point.

Wait a second...

I think I need to head over to the cosmological theories thread. Although THIS thread could head in that direction as well (I fully expect this one to be all over the place, just like the rest).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3666 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  21:48:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well when i did my rewrite of the moonshaes i added in a bit that would explain how ffolk and northman both exist in the uttereast. They both came through the same portal because the ffolk and northmen had arranged an alliance and it went a bit wrong, the ffolk fleet was being pursued by northmen when the ffolk disappeared through one of the portals near the whalebones i think. The northmen may have gone through the same portal trying to catch them. Both ended up in the waters off the utter east.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  22:20:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which sounds exactly like my story from CKC 9

However, I am considering changing all that - my thinking here is that maybe it would be nice to have the two groups arrive separately, or even have one smaller group of Ffolk/Northmen arrive and work together (even if they started off enemies, they would be stuck in a strange place together and decide working together could be for the best). Then much later in the timeline, have a 'wave' of Northmen arrive (Rathgar and his cronies). Eventually, with the helps of the Bloodforges, they're driven out and south, into Konigheim.

'Moonshae' influences in Ulgarth may have stemmed from the initial settlers, or from the later wave - we can spin it either way depending on which works best in the timeline.

EDIT:
Just noticed - the dates for when the barbarian attacks begin out of Ulgarth (83) DR coincide with the initial formation of the Uthgardt tribes, when they "join with other nomadic humans descended from the group of Netherese who followed the Bey of Runlatha and scattered across the North after his death." (GHotR, pg.61)

That happened in 100 DR, but its close enough to fudge things a bit. WE could say the raiding didn't 'get bad' until faster 95 DR, when Uthgar appeared. I'm thinking a portal, obviously.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 22:34:01
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  06:21:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so other than this blood and magic game that I never played, where can we find information on the Utter East. Like where did this Konigheim come from? Doegan? Edenvale? Asking because in theory all of this may have "gone to Abeir" for all we know.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  07:13:17  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yo!
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Utter_East
That's not complete, however, I still have half of Blood & Magic, the Faces of Deception novel, the Realms of Mystery short story "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale", and the Double Diamond Triangle Saga (which were themselves de-canonised anyway) to wiki up. But I have got most of the history down, as well as the real-world development and discrepancies in the Appendix. But what there is on the wiki will tell you the canonical story and tell you where to go.

The wiki's a good place to collate and present the canon lore, and saves us from repeating ourselves or looking things up again and again every time we have this discussion.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  07:53:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Naw, the Utter East was tougher than the Spellplague. When the Cerulean Wave came for them, they slapped the **** out of it and sent it cryin' to its momma.

We're talking about a group of people that keep Elder Evils in 55 Gal. drums in their basements.

@BCM: You seem to have forgotten the vingette Brian James wrote about the Utter East in the GHotR. It took the whole subcontinent of Zakhara to get them to knock-off their late-night parties.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2017 07:56:53
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  08:08:41  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No I didn't, it was the first thing I wikied for the Utter East. It's just not in that list because that's only things I haven't covered yet.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  08:16:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, see that? I didn't go to the link... I didn't have to.

I lived it, man. I LIVED it.


And we can both honestly say (and maybe DarkWizard, and perhaps a couple of other's I can't recall) that that vingette wouldn't have existed had we not worked on that stuff and brought it to Brian's attention.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2017 08:18:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  09:31:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just for Shiggles, what if neo-Celtic culture began in the Imaskar region, rather than the Moonshaes? It would certainly help me connect them to the fey, but would it make anything else 'better'? It would be a pretty major break from canon, but thats fixable - either way I was going to have to have a portal, so does it really matter which direction people migrated in?

In the novel Sentinelspire, Mark Sehestedt made the original Raumathar culture very Celtic (druidic) in flavor. They changed and became much 'darker' because of the war with Narfell, but in the beginning they were nature-oriented. I thought that was 'their own thing', but perhaps some of that was rubbed off from Imaskar?

Thus, if we say the Imaskari originally came from the north - along the Great ice Sea - and were Raumvaran, rather than say they migrated up from southern lands (possibly even Zakhara), that would give us an entirely different flavor than the psuedo-Persien one I always assumed they had (due to Semphar).

Still, because I now feel I need to connect them directly to the Fey, rather then indirectly, think 'coming out of Guge' would still work best. Then again, nothing says the Raumvaran culture itself hadn't been an admixture of Guge/psuedo-Celtic and Gur/psuedo-Finnic, with some heavy influences from 'the east' (making our own gypsy-like culture even more similar to Earth's). I could even go wild and bring the Ang/Mar peoples that far north, in prehistory (the people of the Tempat larang region, which was part of the later Imaskar (Anok-Imaskar) Empire, which would give us out 'Indianesque' flavor as well (which come to think of it, is probably where the Sempahri came from, not Zakahara).

I'm starting to get right back to my 'Aryans (Indo-Europeans) of FR' that I've been trying to steer away from, for the Imaskari, but its really good fit.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2017 03:00:49
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3666 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  09:56:08  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what ive read the imaskari first came to raurin from what would become Durpar.

The Raumathari originally hail from Imaskar.

When Imaskar fell the Raurinese fled back to Durpar and Estagund and Var and Ulgarth.

This is all spread across multiple sourcebooks but it does mean one thing. The arthraen Nar (original Nar of Narfell not the Suren conquerors) were actually of Ulou origin.


At least thats what i can make out from my archives and attempts to collate lore by topic.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  18:01:54  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the Raumathan were related to the Rashemen.
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Martinsky
Seeker

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  18:35:56  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im pretty sure FFolk are exclusive to Moonshae, I mean they was not FFolk before they migrate there. They become know as the Ffolk after some century on the Islands. Their origin are in the Moonshae book if I remember. For Northmen otherwise they come from the North. It can be easy to link the Norhtmen but harder for Ffolk to Utter and Northmen.
I know it wont help you much but I did something similar in the past. WHat it did to add some Norhtmen far to the East it I made 2 clan of shapechanger living on the same island and always in conflict, one of bear and one of wolf. At some time in history one clan decide to migrate to the east so they formed a Kingdom there.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3666 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  19:17:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grand History definitely mentions that a number of ffolk travelled through a portal to the utter east. It also mentions that the ffolk were originally a group of talfi that arrived in the moonshae fleeing persecution from the empire of ebenfar. Moonshae itself confirms that it was two groups of talfir that settled the moonshae within a few years.


As for the imaskari being from durpar and the raumathari being from imaskar, i will have to go over my sources to get the quotes. The naming convention of the places for imaskar, durpar, gundavar, and raumathar show there is a connection between the lands.

Raumathar however was likely made up of two or three groups of people. The rashemi who were originally from shou i think, the raumathari who were imaskari and possibly the raumviran who may be a tribe from the hordelands

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  19:51:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I thought the Raumathan were related to the Rashemen.

Not quite - the Rashemen are related to the Raumathan - both are of Raumvari stock (ancient Gur peoples). Raumathar was once part of the Imaskari empire (a vassal-state to Imaskar).

Thus, we have the 'Devic' culture of Imaskar, taking over a large region and other cultures (similar to Alexander's Empire), among them the Raumvari peoples who had likely only been organized along tribal lines until then (so inadvertently, Imaskar gave MANY groups a 'national identity'), and after the Raumathar-Narfell war, Raumathar itself split into several states, including Rashemen (and weirdly, way up north, Sossal).

EDIT:
Oh, and the Narfelli are also of Raumvari stock, but they had an admixture of Taangan (ancient Haltai {aboriginal Kara-Turran} horsemen), so they had a sort-of 'Cossack' thing going on.

I had thought the Kalmyk empire to have been a precursor to Raumathar, but I haven't done a 'timeline of the east' in so long I'm not sure how I fit that all in. Going by the much greater command of FR lore I have now than I did way back when, I would almost have to call the Kalmyk a 'Raumathar survivor state' at this point, with the Kalmyk leadership being primarily 'monsters' (probably former slaves of the Raumathar), and the Suren then branching-off of them (the human portion breaking free from their former-slaves-turned-masters). There was quite a bit of history regarding all of that in Horselords, so I guess I am going to be re-reading that novel once again. The one thing I distinctly recall is that stuff in the novel made me rethink which group I spun as the 'monstrous element'.

There are STRONG indications from several sources that the Fan-Kiang tribe (in the Horse plains) are Hobgoblins (called 'beastmen', etc), or, at least have a very large percentage of hobgoblin members (for whatever reason, hobgoblins and humans seem to mix easily in the east - there is even one settlement composed entirely of hob males and human females, IIRC).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2017 03:07:26
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
936 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  21:28:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've found this stuff in the Archmages' vault. Maybe you're interested. Is your stuff, btw

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2017 :  22:54:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I found that as well. Its weird reading stuff I worked on so many years ago.

Unfortunately, I have to first read through the old K-T thread, which that was an extension of (I hadn't realized that) - that's where we worked out a lot of the history and what-not (connecting history, at any rate, to the Hordelands and Old empires stuff).

I blew-up a piece of my world map to match the scale I am working at for my main project maps, and it would now take at least two map sections just to do the Utter East, and since I don't want to put that much time into that area ATM (I'm much to busy in the OTHER UE right now), I may just slap locales on the blow-up as a 'quick fix' so we have some sort of reference. My old map got the region completely wrong. Not so much the layout, as the shape of things. Its much more of a 'crescent'.

Also, Sleyvas, make sure you check the errata that we have here at the keep for those old products/maps - there were quite a few changes and tweaks that were done in this region. At least two settlements in Ulgarth got 'swapped' (the text didn't match the map).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2017 22:54:58
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  01:26:27  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's because it isn't complete, there's still everything from Faces of Deception to include. (One day, one day.) The novel describes them as golden skinned (so, light brown) and black haired. This is also where the Ffolk and Northmen are confirmed.

There's no evidence that a bloodforge was used for human sacrifice (no evidence that it was not, either, though the goblin and harpies of the Kingdom of Nix tossed creatures into cauldrons to extra mana to power theirs). The truth is much weirder:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodforge
The actual connection to the mysterious prisons of fiends and undead and "antediluvian horrors", and even what these prisons were or why, is still very unclear and speculative. It began in Faces of Deception and was reiterated in Grand History; it may be alluding to the Tartyron Unbound campaign in Blood & Magic.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, see that? I didn't go to the link... I didn't have to.



I'm hurt.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  01:28:44  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh. Somehow my response to sleyvas appeared before his post.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  01:58:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok, so I found the GHotR reference. Posting it to aid anyone else that follows

621 DR Year of Nineteen Swords - Ffolk from the Moonshae Isles colonize the lands of the Utter East and subjugate the indigenous Mar tribes.

648 DR to 657 DR Bloodforge Wars: After discovering the ancient bloodforges, the lords of the Five Kingdoms of the Utter East send armies of enchanted golems at
one other.

657 DR Year of the Nine Stars Scouring of the Utter East: A horde of antediluvian horrors is released upon the Five Kingdoms of the Utter East. Grand Caliph Arash bint Sanjar of Zakhara sends troops to the Five Kingdoms to eradicate the undead plague, leaving a wasteland of razed cities and rotting corpses in their wake.



Ah, and yes, a big old entry for Scouring of the Utter East in 657 DR...

So, the local Mar people.... what do we know about them? I'm picturing brown skinned humans, but what I'm picturing isn't always the case. I see this wiki entry for them, but it doesn't say anything about their appearance.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mar_(ethnicity)

Hmmmm, and so these "bloodforges" were they basically a place to sacrifice people and their blood was used to make golems? I know I'd heard you guys talking about them in the past. I see they awakened some kind of "Far Realm" type horror... or maybe some weird primordial... IF we wanted to have a reason for this region to "go to Abeir" would it fit if these bloodforges held the link.

Also, do we know anything at all about these "antediluvian" horrors? I assume had I played blood and magic a lot more would make sense (though I'm also hearing it was less than stellar as a game... but it is kind of canon).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Oct 2017 01:16:38
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
936 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  03:31:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Huh. Somehow my response to sleyvas appeared before his post.



Wibbly-Wobbly

Is there any book to read the history of Imaskar? There is not much about them in Lost Empires.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  03:56:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bah! A book filled with Zhentish lies!



Seriously, though, I'm still trying to piece it all together again - the new information regarding Abeir and primordials allows us to put some new spins on stuff.

I think we tried to roll three different facets of the B&M game together, and meld it with the little bit of) novel lore we had. So we know about Bloodforges for sure (and they are now definitely canon, regardless). We know they had the ability to 'soak up' mana from the environment, and you could use that mana, very much like a Spellcrux, except there was an in-between stage - the Bloodforged (Basal) Golems. Basically, beings made from solidified arcane energy, and although they could be used as-is (like golems), they were more effective as 'spell points' (or spell slots/whatever) - walking 'batteries' of magical energy that you could easily convert into spells (including summonings - one of the most common uses).

Then there was the 'trapped evil being of great power', which we just assumed was an Elder evil (and one of them might has been exactly that). We also decided - based on how the game was - that there would have been five of these artifacts in total, and each would have been given to one of the 'Five kingdoms' for safekeeping, in times of old (so we don't even know if any of the modern countries even correspond to the five nations). This lead us to theorize a possible group of five trapped uber-beings in the Utter East, that wee sealed-away by using a reversed Bloodforge (the Bloodforges were actually just discs, about 3' in diameter - one side aborbed mana, and the other created the basal golems). In other words, by turning the blodforges upside-down, you could seal something beneath it, because the Forge would continually drain its power. This is where we figured how to incorporate the 'Lovecraftian' weirdness of the uE - the Dark Energies of the creatures were still leaking out, despite the Bloodforges. Not only that, but at least one of the 'Evils' managed to figure out how to reverse it, so that now the bloodforge slowly drew strength out of the populace, leaving them weak, apathetic husks of their former selves. So since they were weakening, and the 'Dark Energy' was getting out, some of the people began to show signs of mutating, in some really bizarre ways (extra eyes, etc... think The Shadow over Innsmouth). So that show we tied the game weirdness to the novel weirdness.

And finally, the last thing we needed to cover were the cauldrons, from the VG, wherein you could dump people and turn them into... soup? Energy? We're not sure, but the monsters sure did like rounding folks up and putting them in cauldrons. So tying this into what we did with the Bloodforges (that they need 'life energy' and converted it directly into mana/arcane energy), we decided their was a way to 'overcharge' the forges to produce more energy, by sacrificing folks, and some quais-fiends did just that, using those enchanted cauldrons (likely affixed to the backside of the Bloodforges themselves, so it was like pouring 'life' down a funnel for it).


And thats how all that came about, and I wouldn't change a thing of that, because in its own weird way it makes all the 'crazy' work. It makes 'silly' into creepy. There was some discussion (and disagreement) about creating a 'secondary, lesser set of Bloodforges', to tie-in the throne-like chair and the 'Pearls of power', but in retrospect, I think I'll just let that one go (finally). I believe there was also a ring, but I'm nt sure if that VG canon or pure homebrew. Either way, there's a simple fix for all that, and we really don't need a bunch of army-raising artifacts lying around the Realms (Five was more than enough). We may also assume that one may had wound up in Zaharra now ('spoils of war').

Theres also a bunch of 'dungeons' (adventuring locales' in the region, which is why we said the Imaskar had 'hideouts' in the region, all over the place. There really was no other explantion plausible for all those really weird places to be there, in the middle of nowhere.

One of my favorite bits concerned the 'goodly necromancers' who actually had a school of necromancy in the swamp area. I believe we tied them to Mulhorand - a group that split off the 'Black Wizards' and became 'The White' (we needed to explain why they used Ankhs, and regardless, it was a good way of connecting the uE to some other canon lore).

I'm actually glad a portal was mentioned for the Moonshaers - that makes things easier. It also lets me do something a bit more dramatic for our 'Northmen invasion'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  10:56:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, google-fu found a little more. So, it sounds like the "antediluvian" horror is Tartyron "the Lord of Chaos". There's no description. However, given that the game seems to be about using bloodforges to create "basal golems" and these "basal golems" then produce "mana". There also appears to be no limit to the number of basal golems that you can create, but there IS a limit to the amount of "mana" you can have "STORED". Therefore, in theory, it sounds like you could create a network of basal golems in obelisk form and as long as someone were committed to keeping a constant draw, then they could serve as a rudimentary ley line path. Therefore, IF the Utter East transfers over to Abeir, using their blood forges would be a way to create exactly what we've been talking about in other threads. Of course, it sounds like this requires a certain entity known as Tartyron, "The Lord of Chaos", to be alive and linked to the bloodforges. Then again, perhaps these bloodforges can be taken and made to work/ be linked to other entities.... or maybe they can be copied and the new ones be made to link with other power sources.

So, given that Tartyron is a "Lord of Chaos" and these bloodforges create some kind of "basal golem" (which isn't basalt... and they are apparently different colors based on the type of bloodforge).... maybe they draw their material from the Pandemonium Stone... and maybe Tartyron is another ascended Batrachi similar to Bazim-Gorag?

It appears that these "basal golems" also have some ties to gods and a gathering of them can be turned into a shrine/idol/altar/mystical site dedicated to a god

When four basal golems occupied a special foundation, they could transform it and themselves into a mystical site. This process erected a sacred shrine to a god: for the goddess of nature Chauntea, an Arbor Lodge; for the god of renewal and virtue Lathander, a Temple; for the goddess of magic Mystra, a Runestone; for the god of the dead Myrkul, a Crypt; and for the god of war Tempus, a Barracks

Of course, these are the deities that it would have chosen 8 hundred years ago. IF some of these bloodforges were captured/recreated and brought to other areas transferred to Abeir, this might help establish how said areas gained "priests" who sacrificed at these "mystical sites" (again, per rules in Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class in DM's Guild).

When a basal golem came to a friendly mystical site, it could, for an expenditure of mana, transform into a more powerful, higher-level creature. First, it transformed into a metapod, and inside was slowly transformed. If the metapod was destroyed prematurely, the basal golem was slain. When they emerged, they took on a more natural form, often looking completely human or as the creature they mimicked, but with clothing, armor, or body part displaying their faction's colour. However, these did not always close match the genuine creatures they were based on.

At an Arbor Lodge, a basal golem could be transformed into a creature of the wild. These included:

Druid:
Like a druid, this a zealous and bestial defender of nature, clad in bear skin with claws. It was able to freely traverse difficult natural terrain and was partially protected against fellow creatures of nature.
Ranger: Like a ranger, this was an able woodland hunter armed with a bow, able to freely traverse difficult natural terrain and attack at a distance.
Griffin: Like a griffon, being half-eagle and half-lion, this was a fierce flying predator, able to go over any obstacle, though it could not carry or wield items.
Nymph: Like the nymph, this was a beautiful nature spirit, able to freely traverse difficult natural terrain and protected against fellow creatures of nature. The nymph had a mana power to seduce civilized foes into following her into danger without harming her.

At a Barracks, a basal golem could be transformed into a hardened warrior. These included:
Warrior:
A capable veteran swordsman.
Ranger: As from an Arbor Lodge.
Paladin: Like the paladin, this was a noble and fearless crusader who was partially protected from creatures of evil. By spending mana, they could also heal a living being.
Goblin: Similar to an orc or hobgoblin,[speculation] this was a swinish raider generated only in the Kingdom of Nix or by another who controlled one of their cauldrons. At home in marshes and swamps and fearless, they could throw their spears to attack at range.

At a Crypt, a basal golem could be transformed into a creature of evil and dread. These included:
Zombie: Like the zombie, this undead warrior was hard to harm but also hard to heal and was at home in marshes and swamps.
Gargoyle: Like the gargoyle, this was a fearless, fiendish flying monster, able to go over any obstacle.
Ghoul: Like a ghoul, this undead warrior was hard to harm but also hard to heal and was at home in marshes and swamps. However, by attacking living opponents and eating their flesh, it would be healed of its injuries.
Wraith: Like a wraith, this an undead scythe-wielding phantom warrior that floated over rough terrain. It could only be damaged by creatures of faith or with magic, or by other wraiths. The wraith had a mana power that frightening nearby opponents and forced them to flee.
Harpy: Like a harpy, this was a winged huntress able to fly over any obstacle. They could only be generated only in the Kingdom of Nix or by another who controlled one of their cauldrons. The harpy carried a magical net, with which it could capture a ground-based creature and carry them off, often dropping them into a cauldron to be cooked and reverted to mana.

At a Runestone, a basal golem could be transformed into a creature of strong magical essence. These included:
Wizard: Like a wizard, this mage hurled lightning darts that bypassed a foe's armor and defenses.
Gnome: Like a gnome or a goblin,[speculation] this was an artificer who commanded mechanical things. They moved easily through ruins and over structures, and partially resisted the attacks of stone golems. By spending mana, they could magically repair a structure or constructed creature like a stone golem.
Stone Golem: Like a stone golem, this was a powerful creature of stone that was hard to harm or heal, instead needing to be repaired. It ploughed through most difficult terrain.
Wyrm: Similar to an oriental or gold dragon, the wyrm was a winged serpentine dragon that was immune to fires and could spit a ball of flame that ignited an area

At a Temple, a basal golem could be transformed into a creature of great virtue. These included:
Cleric:
Like a cleric, this was a staff-wielding priest who resisting assaults from evil creatures and could heal his living allies by using mana.
Paladin: As from a Barracks.
[b]Fury:
An angry winged female angel of vengeance with a flaming sword, the fury had a unique purpose: to reach, attack, and destroy one single creature. It was immune to many spells and all attacks except those from its target and other furies. However, its great power came at a cost: from the moment it was born, its life steadily ran out, and could not be restored by any means. If a fury managed to slay her target before her time ran out, she turned back into a regular basal golem.
[b]Enchanter:
Like a goblin mage,[speculation] this was a magical trickster available only to the Kingdom of Nix or by another who controlled one of their cauldrons. Uniquely, for a great cost in mana, it could magically convert an enemy into a loyal ally.



So, given the above.... IF we were to transfer this area to Abeir and back... while in Abeir, this thing where it creates these other beings could be a different method. Maybe it doesn't "create" a cleric.... but rather the basal golem can be transformed into a divine focus for a cleric. Maybe it doesn't create a wizard... but rather the basal golem can be transformed into an arcane focus for a wizard. Maybe it doesn't transform into a warrior, but rather it can be turned into a form of "arcane focus" usable by an eldritch knight to create their class ability of a weapon bond. Similar for paladins, rangers, druids. The "stone golem" might instead create a "battery" that one could put into golem that is created. The gnome could be something like an artificer.

For some of the odder things, perhaps at a mystical site a creature could be turned into something else. For instance, a basal golem bonds with a lion to make a griffin. Maybe it bonds with a horse to make a pegasi. Maybe it bonds with a riding lizard to make a wyrm.

The crypt mystical site would literally be sacrificing individuals and converting them into undead for your command, and I could see these being in temples to Velsharoon on Abeir.

Based upon this concept, I'm not picturing these basal golems as being large or medium (even if they were portrayed as such in game). I'm picturing them being small to tiny. I'm picturing them drawing their essence from the pandemonium stone, so these basal golems may not even necessarily be rock creatures... but made from rock, bone, flesh, ice, wood, etc... and with swirling energy of various sorts surrounding them.

Also, given this, I can see these bloodforges making the Utter East very important while on Abeir. Instead of simply exporting mingari, they could be exporting things that make magic possible again. Meanwhile, all of this may be powering up Tartyron, the Lord of Chaos.... whatever he is.... and maybe even other ascended Batrachi similar to Bazim-Gorag. Hmmmmm..... wonder if the bloodforges aren't what the batrachi used to free several primordials way back long ago when the world was twinned.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  14:30:22  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I'm glad someone's reading my wiki articles.

I suppose this interest means I should make Tartyron Unbound my next Utter East wiki project? From the campaign intro, "In the beginning of all things, the Realms were a frenzy of creation. And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea, one among them was cast down for his chaotic schemes. It was in exile that he took the name Tartyron. Tartyron loathed his underground kingdom. He spent his rage upon those that stumbled into his prison. And he waited, for one day he would escape and unleash chaos upon the world." He's the Lord of Chaos, ejected from the Circle of Order, who are the Lord of Lands, the Lord of Flame, and the Lady of Tides. Carrying the elemental theme on would make Tartyron a lord of air or skies, ruler of a hypothesized Realm of Skies, perhaps. He's more of a death knight or blackguard sort of character, but his campaign outcome allows him a beneficial role: chaos balances order and brings change. However, he's the only real candidate in the game for the sealed evils in a can mentioned in Faces of Deception and Grand History.

Basal golems are so named because they're the basic or base unit for all other units and structures.

I'm hesitant to put the Imaskari in Ulgarth or the Utter East, because the Gate of Iron was meant to keep them out, somehow, to some extent.


Oh! What you all haven't seen (unless you read my wiki articles...) is the piece in the Blood & Magic readme file for the Demo version (but not the full version, which I'd used previously). It's very suggestive and describes the game in-universe, making things clearer:

"Making the most of pre-dawn light, your trusted followers prowl the edge of the battlefield in search of suitable terrain. They release their heavy burden in a level clearing, and quickly set about their most urgent task. Your Bloodforge is fixed into the earth before the first rays of golden light touch the spires of the enemy stronghold. To calm your nerves, you recite the principles of warfare as instructed by the Great Mage."
"The Bloodforge is the mother of battle. It is pregnant with magic which grants life to my army. We of the faith call this power mana, the food which nourishes our practice."
"Basal Golems are the children of battle. They are formed from the mana in my Bloodforge, and serve my great purpose without question or regret. When they are idle, their meditations gather mana to supply our cause."
"The mystical sites are the temples of battle. My followers erect them to honor the gods. In exchange for this homage, our Golems may transcend their meager forms when they visit these sacred shrines."
"I am the master of battle. Through the rights of conflict I shall achieve great ends. My position is not on the field of battle, but in that high place where all its glory can be surveyed. My commands are not issued by writ or by proxy, but with a marble oracle created by the Great Mage. Such are his teachings of its use..."

While the description could be metaphor, I rather like wondering if it's not. The Bloodforge is the mother of the battle, and she is a hungry mother, endlessly consuming the raw magic and life energy that is mana as her food, birthing golems and monsters as her children of battle, encouraging unending war to bring yet more mana and birth yet more children. We're told using the bloodforges weakened ancient prisons for antediluvian horrors, and keep looking for a connection and possibilities, but what if the bloodforges are one and the same the prisons and the antediluvian horrors?

It's said in game that the gods created Bloodforges. But only five gods are mentioned in the game – Chauntea, Mystra, Tempus, Lathander, Myrkul – and their symbols appear on the Well of Immortals at the end of the game. (And popping up in various places in the background, the gear of Gond, as well as a Festival of Talos in Konigheim, which keeps burning down) Gods of life, undeath, creation, magic, and war. What else would they produce but a magic-hungry mother of battle and death?

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  17:39:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, since we now know about Primordials, and we also know that they at-first worked for 'order' (building the universe along with the Estelar), and that some of them (perhaps even most of them) were 'corrupted' (turned to chaos) and fought against the Estelar, and then were defeated and were imprisoned (most 'within the earth' of Abeir-Toril), WHY would you think Taryton was anything else?

Although, considering that I now have it (in my HB musings) where many of the Obyriths posed as primordials and estelar, I suppose he could have been an Obyrith, and that may fit the rest of his scenario better.

SECOND, what you just said there BCM - they tried to block the Imaskari with a Gate of Iron? Yup... Fey-touched for sure. Now I am positive of it. I am starting to get this picture in my head of an empire rising in a place where three cultures meet, and something new - the Imaskar - is born from that.

And considering who the Imaskari were, a simple 'gate' would not have kept them out... not later. That was probably built early-on, when the first people calling themselves "Ima's Kari" ('Kar' meaning 'disciple' in Devic, and the 'i' making it plural) tried to expand out of the Raurin area, and there was just one easy path out of the region (can't say 'desert', because it wouldn't be one for at least 10K years).

And if you followed (or re-read) any of my earlier musings, Ima was an Imam who discovered a half-buried temple to Aoskar, which is what lead to his followers experimenting with interdimensional portals. I now think he would have been of different racial stock then the Devas (spiritfolk) tribes of the Raurin - he would have been what is called Raurindi, and later 'Durpari', which IS a racial stock originating from Zakhara. That is what I've had for some time, but not the part about an already-existing indigenous people. If he managed to 'turn on' the temple, the Devas may have followed him because they were suddenly reconnected to the feywild, which is what they had been striving to do themselves for millennia. he would have been like a Messiah figure to them.

So rather than what I had before, I had one ethnic group coming up from the south, encountering another, preexisting group in the Raurin Basin. Then (also different than what I had with the 'Anoque' theory), they encountered the very early expanding empire of Kao (there is quite a bit of lore in the Hordelands material that specifically says 'Kao', NOT 'Shou' - the Shou came much later, and were an Imaskari survivor state. I had some old theories about the kao that i threw-out because they weren't fitting the rest of what I was developing, but I can bring them back now - the 'Kao' empire were Ang (southern Kara-Turrans, what we would call 'Vedic Culture' before Alexander went in their and conquered them), also known as 'Mar' in the Utter East. Because they were completely subsumed by Imaskar eventually (it took thousands of years), we only encounter their culture in small pockets now, like down in Malatra. The last major piece of it to fall would have been Tempat Larang, defeated by tan chin and his Anok-Imaskar Empire (which is both the last {3rd} empire of Imaskar and the first Empire of Shou-Lung). This whole last part is canon, mostly from Ronin Challenge and some from GHotR.

So we had a TRULY ancient empire (Kao-lang?) running into a brand new, burgeoning 'magical' empire on its NW border, which is similar to what happened with the Netherese and Thaeravel, and fits perfectly with FR history and the other major 'theme' FR has going for it - thousands of 'fallen realms' built upon the bones of the last. Up until that time the Kao had only encountered primitive peoples (the native 'Haltai' - what we now call 'Shou') who were fairly easy to conquer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2017 17:46:00
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  17:42:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh - and the Utter East never went anywhere. Fake News.

I'll give you Ulgarth, but thats it.

EDIT:
Not that this pertains to the thread directly, but as part of my 'minimal mapping' micro-project (yes, by renaming it I make myself feel better about my epic-level ADD), I had to do some research on the Golden Waters. First, I was surprised that I never noticed before that Var was ruled by a dragon (a BLUE one, that wasn't all that bad of a guy, it seems. Except for the whole murder of the last ruler, of course). Weird how no-one questions the fact that their ruler is 200 years old (at the time of 3e).

Anyhow, thats not even why I edited this - I was thinking about how Estagund and Var used to be Gundavar, and considering the condition of Var both during 4e and after in 5e (I have it mostly as swamp now), I think what little decent land was left would have been seized by Estagund, and now with the land returned (sort-of - it IS still half-submerged because of the swamps), they claim dominion over all it, and call their country 'New Gundavar', or simply 'Gundavar' for short.

Not that they exert any sort of control over the area, aside from the couple of cities that managed to survive. Its more of a 'marches' region for them. Also - the Dragon-King would have fled during the spellplague (its not like he could have done anything to help them), and is probably now turning his eyes back onto his former lands. He may even be 'hiding out' in Murghōm or Semphar.

just an idea, of course.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2017 18:13:47
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  21:25:23  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-First thing that popped in my head, from Game of Thrones: "What is dead may never die."

-Long live the Utter East though. I read through that archived link (I thought all that stuff got erased forever!), and man, the bunch of us really had some good stuff.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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