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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 07:36:33
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The Realms is a religion to many, but I'm just wondering why there is a constant fascination with gods here at the 'Keep. Of 18 active topics on the current first page of the "General FR Chat" section, 8 of them are devoted to higher beings. Are the fans indulging their personal, spiritual curiousity through the Realms? Just wondering ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 08:47:44
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Their fetish is on Realmsian gods.
Mine is on succubi (ever since the original MM). Does that say something about me? |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 08:54:37
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| Simply the gods are fun. Since the ancient times gods have always been the drama source. They are interesting. The fact that there are gods who try to undermine each other and fight against each other in the Realms creates excellent plots and stories. In my life I am strictly secular and I don't have any spiritual curiousity so I don't think they are related to each other but the gods are my favorite aspect of the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 09:01:28
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| It's a reflection of WotC's fixation on the gods. Realmslore sourcebooks and novels invoking the gods and goddesses (and furthering the grand soap opera of the gods) are increasingly prevalent. Great characters, heroes and villains, liches and nations, no longer seem to exist or take any actions outside the influence of godly plots and plans. Indeed, I doubt any post-3E Realmslore which excludes godslore even exists. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2017 09:05:02 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 14:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms is a religion to many, but I'm just wondering why there is a constant fascination with gods here at the 'Keep. Of 18 active topics on the current first page of the "General FR Chat" section, 8 of them are devoted to higher beings. Are the fans indulging their personal, spiritual curiousity through the Realms? Just wondering ...
-- George Krashos
Honestly, for me, for the last few years it has been about learning what inspired/drove the previous generations. I've probably learned more in the last eight years about ancient religions than I ever knew before. There were many things done in TV shows that are just bad parodies of other people's religions, but its because we as Americans didn't truly understand a lot about these old religions. It gives you insight into these cultures themselves.
For instance, when I think of Arabic cultures, my first thoughts are of women being persecuted and looked down upon. However, then I read up on Inanna. Here we have a goddess who will tell off another man in a heartbeat. Similarly, when I think of Aztec gods, I just picture bloodthirsty sacrificers because that is what we were taught growing up.... but I'm starting to see some ideas take form.
I was really glad to see Disney do the Moanna movie, because it represented a god, Maui, in a way that's not just "the greek gods again". Granted, I won't call it amazing or in-depth, and I purely felt they did it to get the audience... but they made an effort.
In the end, I think most of us Americans grew up with the Greek/Roman mythology as stories, and if we were lucky we were given a slight taste of Egyptian and/or Norse mythology. But most of us were never really taught anything about Babylon/Sumeria/Central American Mythology/ North American Mythology/ Asian Mythology / Oceanic Mythology / Celtic & Irish Mythology, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Oct 2017 14:29:55 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:05:11
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It might be quite random; what I see in real life, is none bother much with the gods of FR, but talk about Drizzt or the games, and gameplay. My interest in the gods of FR is, because I have no access to them, so to say. The blurbs and books I have read, cover almost nothing at all. Those gods I am comfortable with, have been covered as first person characters in plots in D&D books, as Lolth.
Secondly, wizards of the coast randomly rearrange the landscape of FR every 10-15 years or so by having the gods go bonkers. I read more than I play, but the gods in FR is crowbars and nails used to rebuild the rules to fit the new edition. Who makes it confusing.
In real life, I'm studying cultural history of people of diverse polytheistic religions anyway (archaeology), so for me it's an interesting topic. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:29:03
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Personally, I like mythology, because it tells you so much of the cultures that worshiped those gods. You can learn much of a culture by learning its religion. So, the fictional mythology of D&D was one of the reasons I got interested in the game. Mostly, because its not only unique to each D&D world, but also because is interconnected. I guess that I never got hooked on Eberron because its mythology isn't interconnected with the rest of the D&D world's religions.
So, its not that the D&D gods are that interesting. Its mostly that they teach me a lot of what means to be a person living in a D&D world.
And as Starshade said, I'm not so interested in characters from the novels, because the play no role in my games. The only NPC I have used is Elminster, and only once in a cameo-like appearance of 5 minutes in one campaign. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Oct 2017 15:29:24 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:30:30
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For me, I think it probably goes back to a personal spiritual curiosity more prevalent when I was younger.
That said, it's a game where about a third of the character classes (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers, not mention all the divine permutations of other classes) are powered by divine energy of some sort. At various points D&D has had stats for gods, as if they were both beings one could encounter and possibly even defeat (and in basic D&D you could even become one), plus you've always been able to hop through the planes and meet at least the servants of gods (still love what TSR/Monte Cook and others did with Planescape). This was true of the Realms too.
I'll also second the idea that inevitably so many of the major Realms events involve the gods and many of the remaining mysteries of the Realms involve the gods (just how did the dwarves end up in the Realms, did they come from another world and if so how did they get there or did Moradin make them in those mountains south of Semphar whole cloth... er rock or the peculiarity of the Mulhorandi/Egyptian gods coming to the Realms to battle human wizards running amok and then orc gods or when was the Dawn War again?). The gods, in a way, are unknowable in ways that mortals aren't and the lore surrounding them is often less clear than say the history of the Zhentarim or Harpers.
Their presence is felt in many of the novels whether obviously in the books around the Time of Troubles, in Elminister's chats with his Lady, or Drizzt's musings about Mielikki and Lolth's ever present influence on his stories, or Moander's return and defeat in Azure Bonds.
I think that Wizards decided at some point between 3E and 4E that the gods had become too important to the point of overshadowing the players, thus 4E made the gods more distant and even 5E hasn't quite brought them back. Actually, 5E has left them so much more nebulous. Did this god come back? If the Earthmother was a primal spirit in 4E is she still one in 5E? Does 5E have primal spirits instead of gods or is it a distinction without a difference?
Oh, and now we have Tomb of Annihilation setting up the mysteries of Ubtao, a god renamed a primordial who likely was also a Maztican god/primordial with all sorts of dangling threads from past editions coming to the fore. |
Edited by - TomCosta on 22 Oct 2017 15:33:28 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 16:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms is a religion to many, but I'm just wondering why there is a constant fascination with gods here at the 'Keep. Of 18 active topics on the current first page of the "General FR Chat" section, 8 of them are devoted to higher beings. Are the fans indulging their personal, spiritual curiousity through the Realms? Just wondering ...
-- George Krashos
Honestly, for me, for the last few years it has been about learning what inspired/drove the previous generations. I've probably learned more in the last eight years about ancient religions than I ever knew before. There were many things done in TV shows that are just bad parodies of other people's religions, but its because we as Americans didn't truly understand a lot about these old religions. It gives you insight into these cultures themselves.
For instance, when I think of Arabic cultures, my first thoughts are of women being persecuted and looked down upon. However, then I read up on Inanna. Here we have a goddess who will tell off another man in a heartbeat. Similarly, when I think of Aztec gods, I just picture bloodthirsty sacrificers because that is what we were taught growing up.... but I'm starting to see some ideas take form.
I was really glad to see Disney do the Moanna movie, because it represented a god, Maui, in a way that's not just "the greek gods again". Granted, I won't call it amazing or in-depth, and I purely felt they did it to get the audience... but they made an effort.
In the end, I think most of us Americans grew up with the Greek/Roman mythology as stories, and if we were lucky we were given a slight taste of Egyptian and/or Norse mythology. But most of us were never really taught anything about Babylon/Sumeria/Central American Mythology/ North American Mythology/ Asian Mythology / Oceanic Mythology / Celtic & Irish Mythology, etc....
The really cool thing about Inanna in FR is that that she is a Law Evil Goddess of Love, where most D&D love goddesses are Chaotic Good, so she really challenges the idea that Love able good and freedom. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 18:36:35
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Firstly, 4e/5e layered a lot of proto-cosmology on us. We got something brand-new - Primordials - and now we have to backwards-engineer them into the old lore. Also, we got a bunch of new divisions for stuff we already had, that have been reclassified (Primal Spirits, Archfey, etc), and a few things have changed categories, and in other cases old terminology has been repurposed. All stuff we try hard to blend into the old lore seamlessly (which is more of a mental exercise than anything else, since 99.9% of that stuff will NEVER 'come into play').
Now, for me personally, it goes right back to the cartography. When I started doing maps I thought I'd only need to become an 'expert' on the geography, but as time went on, I found myself having to learn about history, climatology, geology, sociology, etc., and know all about FR's racial groups, and try to work out 'migration patterns' for sentients. Now, since 'the gods' are a major aspect of FR and its history, and have had a MAJOR impact on how the world looks (hell, the planet got split in TWO because of them! Now I have two worlds to map!) I find I have a need to know about them as well, especially in regards to stuff they did that 'changed the face of the world(s)'.
I also have a second major interest in 'The Fey'. I was actually doing a sourcebook for them for the game Chivalry & Sorcery way back in the late 70's when I worked for FGU. I did tons and tons of research on them, which was a LOT harder back then - I had to sit in libraries for entire days at a time. Just as I finished the research portion of it and was about to start putting the stuff into a cohesive whole, FGU moved their headquarters out to California. That was fine for the owner and his family, and for some of the designers who were traveling to get to the company anyway (I was lucky enough to live in the next town over, and got to meet quite a few old-school 'big names' that way), but not for a 16 old kid who was taking a train for one stop and sleeping at a college campus every weekend just to be a part of it all. I lost contact, and my dreams of doing an all-inclusive, multicultural folklore book on 'the wee folk' came to an end.
So yeah, I get a little excited when I see how much work they put into the Feywild, and gave it lots of lore (and love) in 4e. And since the Fey are a 'Creator Race' and directly connected to 'the Gods', it only makes sense that I, personally, want to know every last thing about them.
And as to what you were alluding to with the rest of your question - YES to that as well. As I dig deeper and deeper into ancient RW religions (what we call 'mythologies' in a brutish, bigoted way to lessen them), I find more and more 'coincidences' within their lore - stuff that cultures on opposite sides of the world should not have known (coupled with some archaeological facts I know that scientists prefer to 'sweep under the rug', like that tobacco from South America was found buried with pharaohs in their tombs), and I am also on a journey of true discovery, using my love of FR as a vehicle by which to travel.
"Your teacher did not lie to you. A centaur never lies. He merely edited the information
on orders from the king, so as not to force on the impressionable minds of children
things their parents did not want them to hear. Education has ever been thus"
---- Cherie Centaur, A Spell for Chameleon
Question EVERYTHING. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2017 18:40:15 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 20:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
For me, I think it probably goes back to a personal spiritual curiosity more prevalent when I was younger.
That said, it's a game where about a third of the character classes (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers, not mention all the divine permutations of other classes) are powered by divine energy of some sort. At various points D&D has had stats for gods, as if they were both beings one could encounter and possibly even defeat (and in basic D&D you could even become one), plus you've always been able to hop through the planes and meet at least the servants of gods (still love what TSR/Monte Cook and others did with Planescape). This was true of the Realms too.
I'll also second the idea that inevitably so many of the major Realms events involve the gods and many of the remaining mysteries of the Realms involve the gods (just how did the dwarves end up in the Realms, did they come from another world and if so how did they get there or did Moradin make them in those mountains south of Semphar whole cloth... er rock or the peculiarity of the Mulhorandi/Egyptian gods coming to the Realms to battle human wizards running amok and then orc gods or when was the Dawn War again?). The gods, in a way, are unknowable in ways that mortals aren't and the lore surrounding them is often less clear than say the history of the Zhentarim or Harpers.
Their presence is felt in many of the novels whether obviously in the books around the Time of Troubles, in Elminister's chats with his Lady, or Drizzt's musings about Mielikki and Lolth's ever present influence on his stories, or Moander's return and defeat in Azure Bonds.
I think that Wizards decided at some point between 3E and 4E that the gods had become too important to the point of overshadowing the players, thus 4E made the gods more distant and even 5E hasn't quite brought them back. Actually, 5E has left them so much more nebulous. Did this god come back? If the Earthmother was a primal spirit in 4E is she still one in 5E? Does 5E have primal spirits instead of gods or is it a distinction without a difference?
Oh, and now we have Tomb of Annihilation setting up the mysteries of Ubtao, a god renamed a primordial who likely was also a Maztican god/primordial with all sorts of dangling threads from past editions coming to the fore.
What is the Matzican Ubtao Connection?
The book also talks about the 9 trickster Gods who are likely primal spirits.
The Chwingas function like Primal Spirits, but have the Elemental type.
I think Primal Spirits in 5e are just any kind of spirit tied to the material planes Nature, just a hypothsis, but Primal Spirits might be more of description of a spirits function or state of being then a type of being.
Also weird thing is the Catlord's Connection to Chult, its weird that he sends Tabaxi (Cat People) to Chult to hunt till they die in battle. You'd think there were enough things to hunt in Maztica that could kill you. So that is an interesting Mystery.
One funny thing in 5e realms is that they have enough cats connected deities to make a feline pantheon. Cat Lord, Sharess, Nobanion, Malar, kind of Kelemvor (was formily a werepanther). |
Edited by - Gyor on 22 Oct 2017 20:39:59 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 21:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms is a religion to many, but I'm just wondering why there is a constant fascination with gods here at the 'Keep. Of 18 active topics on the current first page of the "General FR Chat" section, 8 of them are devoted to higher beings. Are the fans indulging their personal, spiritual curiousity through the Realms? Just wondering ...
-- George Krashos
Honestly, for me, for the last few years it has been about learning what inspired/drove the previous generations. I've probably learned more in the last eight years about ancient religions than I ever knew before. There were many things done in TV shows that are just bad parodies of other people's religions, but its because we as Americans didn't truly understand a lot about these old religions. It gives you insight into these cultures themselves.
For instance, when I think of Arabic cultures, my first thoughts are of women being persecuted and looked down upon. However, then I read up on Inanna. Here we have a goddess who will tell off another man in a heartbeat. Similarly, when I think of Aztec gods, I just picture bloodthirsty sacrificers because that is what we were taught growing up.... but I'm starting to see some ideas take form.
I was really glad to see Disney do the Moanna movie, because it represented a god, Maui, in a way that's not just "the greek gods again". Granted, I won't call it amazing or in-depth, and I purely felt they did it to get the audience... but they made an effort.
In the end, I think most of us Americans grew up with the Greek/Roman mythology as stories, and if we were lucky we were given a slight taste of Egyptian and/or Norse mythology. But most of us were never really taught anything about Babylon/Sumeria/Central American Mythology/ North American Mythology/ Asian Mythology / Oceanic Mythology / Celtic & Irish Mythology, etc....
The really cool thing about Inanna in FR is that that she is a Law Evil Goddess of Love, where most D&D love goddesses are Chaotic Good, so she really challenges the idea that Love able good and freedom.
Yes, she is a goddess of love, but not emotional love.... she's a goddess of lust and you better give it to her good and make sure she enjoys it. She makes a perfect physical warrior goddess to my mind, especially picturing her as dual wielding and dancing amongst her enemies (sword in one hand, axe in the other, leaping around the battlefield cleaving heads). You also better give your word and keep it, and whatever you agree to had best serve her interests. She's also apt to get you drunk and steal secrets from you. In some ways she's like Sharess, in some like the Red Knight. But she's different from both, in that the red knight is about strategy, and Sharess is all about pleasure in both the getting and giving. She just feels like a fun goddess to bring back, and having her and Ramman in the same pantheon at the same time, and both being gods of war could prove interesting.
Now, what they've presented of the REALMS version of Ishtar (whom we see interchanged in OUR histories as very interchangeable with Inanna) is that Ishtar is presented as the emotional love with some lust, do good, help people type personality.... so they've made them two vastly different entities in the realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 21:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
What is the Matzican Ubtao Connection?
<snip>
One funny thing in 5e realms is that they have enough cats connected deities to make a feline pantheon. Cat Lord, Sharess, Nobanion, Malar, kind of Kelemvor (was formily a werepanther).
The Ubtao / Qotal "feathered serpent" connection comes in with the story in GHotR involves Katashaka and the nyamma-numo known as "the sleeper". Basically, we know that Qotal left Maztica. It looks like he left there to go to Chult and take on the name Ubtao.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 21:57:50
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I'm going to agree with Farinal. The gods are my favorite aspect of the Realms. I love how well developed and how real (within the setting) they are. They're existence is not just based on faith, but on fact. The gods exist in the canon Realms. I love how they aren't just distant, unknowable forces that don't do anything. Yes, sometimes their involvement gets overblown, but I think they help enrich the setting as a whole. They aren't just some blurb, they have a history, personality, etc.
Also, for better or worse, the gods have influenced much of what happens in the Realms, so there is bound to be discussions/speculations about them. I find cosmology and mythology interesting. I'm not a very religious person, though I do have spiritual beliefs. But the celestial world in fantasy always fascinates me. In my own writing (non-FR), my celestial world is well established.
Also, from a reader standpoint, I get attached to characters easily, and so the fact there is an afterlife gives me at least a small comfort when a beloved character dies XD (well, most of the time, depending on their patron deity). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Oct 2017 21:59:43 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 22:02:00
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| If you want to right your multicultural book on the multicultural Wee Folk, you can self publish now a day, for example on DMSGUILD. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 03:10:19
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My main interest in the Realms has always been the people of the setting... And the gods are one of the things that motivate the people.
While I do like to know things about the gods, the bigger interest for me is their impact on the setting - how they drive the various plots.
So my fascination with the gods of the Realms is as plot devices.
And despite the complaints that are inevitably hurled about using the gods as plot devices... Religion has had a huge impact on real world history, and continues to be incredibly influential. It's only logical that it should be the same in the Realms, and it's also only logical that the deities of the Realms are going to interact, in some way, with their followers.
Sure, having a deity come around for tea is overkill... But despite popular belief, deities can influence events and interact with their followers in much more subtle ways. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 04:42:48
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^ I like the interactions with the followers. Yes, sitting down for tea is overkill (I prefer them to retain some semblance of mystery), but other interactions, even an appearance of an avatar, makes them that much more a part of the setting.
Honestly, IMO, the Realms wouldn't be the same me without the gods. I know some people want little to no involvement from the gods, but to me, they are as much a part of the setting as magic, monsters, and mortals. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 05:07:56
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The problem is when you try to actually write out the gods as characters. The Avatar series was essentially giving Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul Snidely Whiplash mustaches, and Mystra is painfully overdone to the point she overshadows every other deity.
And then there are the gods who've become the creator's pets. Mystra, Tiamat and Bahamut are simply the most blatant, plainly overshadowing every other deity in their pantheons.
Thirdly, the gods just don't feel...divine, I guess. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 06:03:06
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Because they're not. Not really. They're more like the gods in the Greek or Norse myths, who were really just a bunch of bullies, asshats, snobs, misogynist pigs, racists, and all around JERKS. Mostly the men, but the women sometimes behaved badly as well (they tended to over-react when people caught them 'peeping', and don't even get me started on baby-murdering Hera...)
They are really little more then 'archwizards', and even some of our archwizards can kick their butts (the weaker gods, at any rate). There was a scene in one novel where Elminster summoned Eldath... literally summoned her... just to show HER PRIEST who was really boss in a certain situation.
We tend to think of 'gods' with our great big 21st century brains, with our big ol' monotheistic religions... and that's just not how those ancient gods were. They weren't 'good'. Hell, they were barely even cordial, most of the time. They were petty, and child-like, and that's how Ed envisioned them - a bickering bunch of selfish douches. Any 'glory' you saw in them is on you.
Some of us actually started to turn this into yet-another 'god thread' (self-fulfilling prophesy at your service). 
I don't use 'gods' in my games. In fact, I think the only time I used a 'god' was myself, and it was in a comedic way (the players literally 'walked off the edge of the map', so I described myself, as an annoyed DM, shooing them back in the other direction). However, I don't just like to "have all my ducks in a row", I like to know why there are ducks, who created them, why they need to be in rows, how come they get a bill but never pay the check? In other words, even if all that 'background stuff' my players never see, I want to know where, when, why, who, & how about everything, so if they do do something unexpected (which happens about 50 times a session), I have a good idea what the outcome will be, based upon my 'greater knowledge'.
So no, I don't really need to know that Loki tripped Vishnu on the buffet line a zillion years ago, but I know why the Vedic priest is glaring at the Norse priest across the tavern... even if my players never will. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2017 06:11:17 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 09:08:07
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the power players and groups first, maps second, lore third then the deities and their impact.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 11:34:23
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The problem with the gods comes from the challenges of actually writing out near-omniscient beings of unfathomable power. Pathfinder does a better job of handling gods by keeping them offscreen but active in the Planes.
Again, it also comes down to developer favorites, like Mystra, Lolth, Bahamut and Tiamat stealing so much screentime. Obsidian Entertainment, of course, fleshed out Myrkul and Kelemvor without overdoing it, but when's the last time Kelemvor or Bane had actual screentime? Bane's last appearance was his avatar dealing Szass. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 14:14:43
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Realms fans have long clamoured for novels based around "real" characters instead of around Chosens and gods and puppets of gods. "You can hardly swing an axe without hitting somebody's god" has been oft said.
Earlier novels sometimes featured characters who were priests or paladins or who otherwise "championed" their gods. But these characters had "ownership", they accessed divine powers as part of their arsenal in their battles of good-vs-evil, they healed and protected or they harmed and destroyed by their own words and deeds, they were the real motivators of themselves and their accomplishments in the stories. Later novels often featured characters who championed their gods, but always with the gods (indeed a whole sordid interaction between multiple gods) pulling all the plot strings behind the scenes. Auctorial inflation, increasing fixation on the gods initiated by WotC, not by their audience (although the audience always went along, even "unwillingly").
2E set the tone for godly meddling, slowly at first. 3E embraced it every time it was "needed" to explain anything epic. 4E was entirely shaped around it. No wonder the fans speak so much about the gods and the Chosens now, little else of great significance ever occurs in the setting these days without gods standing center-stage and more gods lurking slightly off-stage.
Oddly, I think Drizzt has been the only prominent and persistent character in the Realms who's successfully escaped being used as a pawn of the gods, for the most part. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Oct 2017 14:28:48 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 00:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We tend to think of 'gods' with our great big 21st century brains, with our big ol' monotheistic religions... and that's just not how those ancient gods were. They weren't 'good'. Hell, they were barely even cordial, most of the time. They were petty, and child-like, and that's how Ed envisioned them - a bickering bunch of selfish douches. Any 'glory' you saw in them is on you.
If a world in a fantasy series, be that a game setting or not, there are multiple gods, than that's how I regard them. I don't apply the monotheistic, omniscient viewpoint of the RW (unless the author makes it clear that's what they are going for). The variety of deities is actually what makes it rich and diverse to me.
quote:
originally by Ayrik
Realms fans have long clamoured for novels based around "real" characters instead of around Chosens and gods and puppets of gods. "You can hardly swing an axe without hitting somebody's god" has been oft said.
Earlier novels sometimes featured characters who were priests or paladins or who otherwise "championed" their gods. But these characters had "ownership", they accessed divine powers as part of their arsenal in their battles of good-vs-evil, they healed and protected or they harmed and destroyed by their own words and deeds, they were the real motivators of themselves and their accomplishments in the stories. Later novels often featured characters who championed their gods, but always with the gods (indeed a whole sordid interaction between multiple gods) pulling all the plot strings behind the scenes. Auctorial inflation, increasing fixation on the gods initiated by WotC, not by their audience (although the audience always went along, even "unwillingly").
2E set the tone for godly meddling, slowly at first. 3E embraced it every time it was "needed" to explain anything epic. 4E was entirely shaped around it. No wonder the fans speak so much about the gods and the Chosens now, little else of great significance ever occurs in the setting these days without gods standing center-stage and more gods lurking slightly off-stage.
I will agree that there has been some overkill, though, personally, as a reader, I haven't really felt like the gods have "robbed" the spotlight. Even with god-centered plots, it still focuses on the mortal characters.
Also, making the gods characters goes back to the idea of them being more like the Greek and other gods of RW mythos. The gods were characters in stories all the time, and sometimes, they acted very "human".
Now, making the gods "too human", and by that I mean having an avatar sitting down to tea and chatting with their mortal followers is a bit much, and takes away the mystery. But some form of interaction, whether it's direct (an avatar appearing), or indirect (dreams, visions, acting through a priest, etc) is fine by me. I know I'm in the minority here, but, while I of agree that there has been some...overabundance in godly involvement, I don't think it has taken from the overall story(ies). In fact, I think some great stories have come out of such events. True, some of them disrupted the setting (I still hate the Spellplague, and I really disliked how 4e reduced the pantheon. I'm glad they brought it back in 5e, even if there was scant detail on it), but I don't think it took away from the stories themselves/how the event affected the Faerunians.
Also, keep in mind that, whether the gods act more indirectly or not, they are quite involved with the goings-on in the Realms. It just depends on what form that involvement takes.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 07:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Thirdly, the gods just don't feel...divine, I guess.
Of course they don't feel divine. It's because they are too often portrayed with Human flaws, and human motives, human failings. Just like those Greek gods.
What do they "feel like"? They feel like powerful uber-high-level PCs towards the end of their careers. With maxed out epic powers, and lots of hit points, big egos, and nice powerful bling. They are the DM's epic Mary Sues.
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 11:13:35
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The meddling gods weren't (and aren't) interesting enough to keep me reading the novels, lol.
In fact, one of the very few times in my life that I physically hurled a book away in disgust was when engaged in a fairly good trilogy which was rudely interrupted, aborted, and derailed by the introduction of a very much unwanted sudden spellplague. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Oct 2017 11:16:50 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 13:43:32
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| I wasn't a fan of that Spellplague, either, but that was because of what it did to the setting XD (I didn't like the reduction of the Torilian pantheon, nor was I overly fond of the time jump). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 18:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Their fetish is on Realmsian gods.
Mine is on succubi (ever since the original MM). Does that say something about me?
That was a nice one it was.
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 01:13:27
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As for me, I still have a crush on 1e's Deities and Demigods (1st printing) Xiombarg. (Melniboean pantheon)
Tlazolteotl was pretty hot too. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 02:49:38
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| Hmmm... this is new to me. Melnibonean gods were canon D&D gods in 1e? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Why the Gods?
