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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2883 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  22:52:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So in my 1372 DR Silver Marches game (I really need to update that journal on here!) we've had some PC turnover and my players have chosen to head to Silverymoon to wait out the winter. The problem is a presumably common one - one of our newer characters is a drow priestess of Eilistraee.

We're all familiar with the infamous scene of Alustriel turning Drizzt away from Silverymoon in Sojourn. So the racism against and fear of drow in the Gem of the North is well established. I don't want to be a jerk DM and suddenly spring it on the player that they can't enter the main city in our campaign area. I think bad responses and issues are understandable - I think a disguise is in order for sure.

But that's the social context. The mechanical one is harder. My game generally uses 3e's Silver Marches as our primary source, and that book's description of Silverymoon's wards include an antipathy effect directed on drow starting at the city walls. So canonically, there's a mechanical effect keeping this PC out. I checked the other sources on Silverymoon's wards that I'm aware of (VGtN, the North, Lost Empires of Faerun), and they either don't provide much detail or include that same antipathy effect.

I looked around the forums here and turned up this post by THO on behalf of Ed back in 2004:

quote:
December 22, 2004: Hello, all. Herewith, Ed makes answer to zeathiel:

Drow are definitely unwelcome in Silverymoon.

Your quotations from the text I penned (and Rich Baker edited) for THE SILVER MARCHES are correct, but I confess I can't see any confusion. The first quotation is describing a magical property of the city wards, and the second is describing the attitude of Silverymoon to visitors from among the ranks of "The People of the Silver Marches" (the title of that chapter), and of the races known to dwell in the region who may be encountered (as traders) traveling in the Marches. As no member of the League of the Silver Marches counts drow as among its citizens ("people"), the second passage is dealing with what happens if drow (of any sort) show up at the gates of Silverymoon: they won't be allowed to enter (just as Drizzt was not allowed to enter, in Bob's novel STREAMS OF SILVER).

Because of the strong presence of elves and half-elves in Silverymoon (where Alustriel is trying to, in some respects, recreate Myth Drannor, remember?), drow are too much feared and hated to be openly welcome. Waterdeep is a human-dominated cosmopolitan trading city where coins rule and half the creatures of Faerûn rub shoulders; its tolerance is legendary and a foundation-stone of its mercantile success - - yet even in the City of Splendors, most folk react with either unease or open dislike to drow.

That's not to say that a DM can't make exceptions, or have particular individuals treated differently. Yet if *I* was a drow who wanted to enter Silverymoon, I'd adopt a very good disguise.

Alustriel can, of course, (by use of ward-tokens, as discussed in THE SILVER MARCHES) allow Drizzt to enter the High Palace or various other locations in the city without his having to enter via a city gate and walk the streets. Drizzt or any other drow can accompany a ruler of a League member and enjoy diplomatic immunity (as simontrinity alluded to when posting "while King Bruenor will speak for Drizzt," but you can be sure such individuals will be VERY closely watched (by members of the Spellguard as well as more mundane spies - - and by other eyes than merely those belonging to the city authorities and Harpers, too).

simontrinity is quite correct in saying that it's "easier for people to believe an occasional rare drow may turn good, than it is to believe that a whole bunch of them" [good drow, that is] "are roaming around."

No, there aren't lots of drow worshippers of Eilistraee OPENLY wandering the streets of Silverymoon, but there ARE probably sixty or more dwelling in the city in disguise, and many more in the lands around Silverymoon and around Everlund (as Kentinal suggested). My Lady Hooded can provide details of where and how the Knights met with drow worshippers of Eilistraee. :}

So saith Ed, and yes, I can.

Being candid by nature about matters sensual, let me just put it this way: the lands along the Rauvin between Silverymoon and Everlund are FAIRLY safe, being under the patrolled protection of both places. In this area are a number of small, private fortified manor houses that serve as rather exclusive inns (often patronized by caravan companies, adventuring bands, and parties of envoys). Some of them offer the services of some rather exotic ladies-of-pleasure who are, ahem, good at dancing, not shy about being unclad, and have skin of, yes, obsidian hue. Any Silvaeren who care to pay any attention at all to social news of Silverymoon knows of these "dark ladies," even if they've never seen them or ventured to any of these manors.

We Knights have stayed at several of them. As I recall, Torm had to be physically peeled away from a favourite lady when it came time for us to depart the manor of Vesprae's Gates - - and even Florin gets a wistful look on his face when Lady Vesprae herself is mentioned. (Dove teases him by uttering that name from time to time, just to see him look uncomfortable and mournful, all at once.)

love to all,
THO


So this is Ed directly responding to Silver Marches with his usual attention to canon. As he notes, he wrote these sections. And Ed's take is distinctly different from the mechanical text - he notes sixty or so Eilistraee worshipers (drow) living in Silverymoon. Now, that's technically possible - as Ed points out, duraph tokens stop the antipathy effect - but those would need to be handed out by guards and ward initiates, who would turn away drow at the gates anyway. (On a related note, my party doesn't really have any great affiliations to get them diplomatic immunity so that's out.) I find it difficult to believe that sixty-some-odd drow are running around with highly controlled duraph tokens already.

Ed suggests a solution to this in that quote - that duraph tokens are only used to negate the antipathy effects for entering the inner wards (Vaelun). That makes a lot of sense to me, and probably fits my game pretty well - have my party enter the larger city, and the wards only become a problem for when they want to head to the seat of power directly (giving them a chance to earn a ward token if necessary.) That isn't mechanically correct, technically - both Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerun do have the antipathy effect extending throughout the entire wards, not just the Vaelun.

So I'm kind of stuck. I like Ed's solution; but it doesn't quite mechanically fit. What would you do in this situation, scribes?

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  04:05:20  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Ed suggests a solution to this in that quote - that duraph tokens are only used to negate the antipathy effects for entering the inner wards (Vaelun). That makes a lot of sense to me, and probably fits my game pretty well - have my party enter the larger city, and the wards only become a problem for when they want to head to the seat of power directly (giving them a chance to earn a ward token if necessary.) That isn't mechanically correct, technically - both Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerun do have the antipathy effect extending throughout the entire wards, not just the Vaelun.

So I'm kind of stuck. I like Ed's solution; but it doesn't quite mechanically fit. What would you do in this situation, scribes?
[...]
Now, that's technically possible - as Ed points out, duraph tokens stop the antipathy effect - but those would need to be handed out by guards and ward initiates, who would turn away drow at the gates anyway.

It's not "a solution", it's lack of a problem.
1. I'd read carefully Ed's reply you quoted. He says nothing about "duraph tokens".
2. I'd also read carefully the message to which he answers (or the original text). The problem does not exist in the first place.
3. Even if they did need to issue a few tokens for the external ward, this would not be a big deal either. Because people who are not murderhobos adventurers out of nowhere don't necessarily have key-behind-the-lock problem at the gates - they can have a third party (like Alustriel's sister, for one) arrange something beforehand. While random suspicious drow nobody knows are turned away.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  04:16:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps a lesser token, applying only to the antipathy effect and only to the outer wards?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  21:01:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps a lesser token, applying only to the antipathy effect and only to the outer wards?
I was thinking along these exact same lines late last night, but I was too tired to put my thoughts into a cohesive whole (which is probably for the best - we need not yet another 'wall of text' LOL).

Perhaps an older token, from a time when the city was smaller, that never took into account for the greater size in later years? There would probably be less than a dozen, and just about everyone may have forgotten about them (hence, why we have no previous lore).

That still doesn't really explain how so many drow can live IN the city, though. Personally, I find the number rather high, and I would do something I rarely do - completely ignore Ed in this regard.

The other option is to say there are 'special' tokens that only allow access to the outer city, and these are created - and distributed - by Alustriel herself, and maybe only one or two others knows about them. They would also have a secondary dweomer, of course, allowing a person to disguise themselves once per day (and the effect last for 24 hrs, thus you can't just keep switching the way you look, over and over again). The point of all that would be that she did this for her sister Qilué and Eilistraee's followers. Then you can just say 'one has gone missing' (your party may have fond it on a dead body they came across). Of course, Alustriel would be looking for it... which would be an adventure unto itself.


Meanwhile...
And on a completely unrelated note (to the topic, not what I said above), I just thought of something - if you have a 'once per day' magic item from a different world, does it 'reset' for the world you are on, or does it still function with the cycles of the world it was created on? Because if that's how it works, then I want a 'once per day' wand of fireballs from a planet that has a one-hr day/night cycle.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 21:03:56
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2017 :  00:46:43  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps a lesser token, applying only to the antipathy effect and only to the outer wards?

That's exactly what the OP assumed. Again, it's unnecessary.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2883 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  02:56:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Ed suggests a solution to this in that quote - that duraph tokens are only used to negate the antipathy effects for entering the inner wards (Vaelun). That makes a lot of sense to me, and probably fits my game pretty well - have my party enter the larger city, and the wards only become a problem for when they want to head to the seat of power directly (giving them a chance to earn a ward token if necessary.) That isn't mechanically correct, technically - both Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerun do have the antipathy effect extending throughout the entire wards, not just the Vaelun.

So I'm kind of stuck. I like Ed's solution; but it doesn't quite mechanically fit. What would you do in this situation, scribes?
[...]
Now, that's technically possible - as Ed points out, duraph tokens stop the antipathy effect - but those would need to be handed out by guards and ward initiates, who would turn away drow at the gates anyway.

It's not "a solution", it's lack of a problem.
1. I'd read carefully Ed's reply you quoted. He says nothing about "duraph tokens".
2. I'd also read carefully the message to which he answers (or the original text). The problem does not exist in the first place.
3. Even if they did need to issue a few tokens for the external ward, this would not be a big deal either. Because people who are not murderhobos adventurers out of nowhere don't necessarily have key-behind-the-lock problem at the gates - they can have a third party (like Alustriel's sister, for one) arrange something beforehand. While random suspicious drow nobody knows are turned away.



Ed discusses the duraph tokens under the greater set of ward tokens - and points them out directly with regards to Drizzt and other drow.
I've read both parts of Silver Marches that he refers to, of course.
And sure, the problem might be solvable for people with connections - but that's not my current adventuring party.

@Wooly: Still kind of raises the problem of getting one at the gates though. If drow aren't accepted through the gates, but guards or similar need to hand out the tokens (as they disappear outside the boundaries of the wards), they won't know who's drow to hand them out (or want to). Markustay's suggestion of secret tokens for Qilue and her followers isn't bad, though.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:39:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps a lesser token, applying only to the antipathy effect and only to the outer wards?

That's exactly what the OP assumed. Again, it's unnecessary.



I don't see anything in the OP suggesting something that had a similar function but was less than the duraph tokens, and if drow can't enter the city without a token, then a token is necessary.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:40:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia


@Wooly: Still kind of raises the problem of getting one at the gates though. If drow aren't accepted through the gates, but guards or similar need to hand out the tokens (as they disappear outside the boundaries of the wards), they won't know who's drow to hand them out (or want to). Markustay's suggestion of secret tokens for Qilue and her followers isn't bad, though.



I wasn't suggesting a workaround for getting the token -- I was suggesting a workaround for the idea of having the more powerful tokens be the only way in.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:49:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to give credit where it is due, I only built upon Wooly's idea.

'Cause thats what we're here for, right?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  21:24:48  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

and if drow can't enter the city without a token, then a token is necessary.

Right. And now let's re-read it. Not skim over, word by word.
quote:
Originally posted by zeathiel

"The prevailing spells of Silverymoon's wards are known to include: antipathy to all evil-aligned demons, devils, dragons, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs..."

See? Generally this simply should not apply in this case (worshippers of Eilistraee).

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  22:22:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed himself speaks of good drow needing a token, or Alustriel's blessing, to bypass the wards. Therefore, it is an issue that needs to be addressed, if someone wants to have a drow in Silverymoon. The passage you reference is poorly-worded (since devils and demons are almost universally evil, and most of the other listed races are predominantly evil, as well), and obviously Ed does not agree with your interpretation of it.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  11:54:58  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Ed himself speaks of good drow needing a token, or Alustriel's blessing, to bypass the wards.
Therefore, it is an issue that needs to be addressed, if someone wants to have a drow in Silverymoon.
Which wards? Again, let's read carefully:
quote:
Alustriel can, of course, (by use of ward-tokens, as discussed in THE SILVER MARCHES) allow Drizzt to enter the High Palace or various other locations in the city without his having to enter via a city gate and walk the streets.
That is, she can use unspecified tokens to let someone not just walk through the gates, but enter inner wards or even bypass blanket teleport lock.

quote:
The passage you reference is poorly-worded
(since devils and demons are almost universally evil, and most of the other listed races are predominantly evil, as well)

Which doesn't mean that it's "poorly-worded", but that this addition is extremely unlikely to be random, and thus should be considered significant.
Now, if we take it literally, everything makes sense, including the zeathiel's question and Ed's answer.
It also makes perfect sense in itself: presumably the wards were designed mainly by Alustriel, and she of all people have to know a thing or two about the non-evil drow.
And speaking of those from nether planes - weren't lots of Alu-fiends (whopping 1/5... coincidentally) non-evil?
Conversely, in your interpretation (drop "evil-aligned"), the initial question doesn't make sense (because if wards don't like any drow and citizen don't like any drow), then there's no discrepancy for zeathiel to be confused about, while Ed's answer consistently fails to correct this, while creating the new problem (since it would indeed inevitably cause the issue on which OP "stuck").

quote:
and obviously Ed does not agree with your interpretation of it.


People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  12:41:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry. I defer to the creator of the setting in issues concerning it.

And just because you insist there isn't an issue, that doesn't mean there isn't one -- especially since we're having this discussion.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Martinsky
Seeker

Canada
21 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  15:06:03  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the way I interpret this ward it all evil aligned of that race, I dont think it applied to good aligned, like thielfling or half-demon or Drow who are good or neutral. It even more clear for me in Lost Empire.

"Antipathy (against lawful evil,
evil, and chaotic evil creatures, keyed to
demons, devils, drow, duergar, giants,
goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs, and trolls)"

Otherwise someone will have to define "keyed to" I dont think my werewolf follower of Elliastree will be affect either.
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  17:58:38  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky

Well the way I interpret this ward it all evil aligned of that race, I dont think it applied to good aligned, like thielfling or half-demon or Drow who are good or neutral. It even more clear for me in Lost Empire.

"Antipathy (against lawful evil,
evil, and chaotic evil creatures, keyed to
demons, devils, drow, duergar, giants,
goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs, and trolls)"

Otherwise someone will have to define "keyed to" I dont think my werewolf follower of Elliastree will be affect either.



I concur with your interpretation of the spell.

On the small chance the ward has been modified then I suggest the following.

The character wears a disguise and walks in with no token of any kind. Some time later Alustiel finds out and wonders how in the Hells did that happen.

Unbeknownst to the character:
1) ...has a divine blessing from a good/goddess that allows it.
2) ...an ancestor helped create the wards and added a little twist to it, allowing the character to roam around.
3) already has a token but it has been shape-changed into something else by a previous owner (see Markus post)

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Martinsky
Seeker

Canada
21 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  19:08:16  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good idea or you can just let the dices decide! Make a Dc check and do a roll of dice if she past the ward or not. But if she fail that bad for her you will have to find another way to let her in as she will feel a urge to go away. However I dont have idea to what bonus she will apply to the check but it can be a way around. Charisma or wisdom maybe! Or maybe just roll a dice to see if the ward react to her.

Evil humananoid race seem to be able to go in, I dont see why good aligned drow wont be able, it will be some kind of segregation, it dont really go with the mentality of Silverymoon.

Edited by - Martinsky on 27 Oct 2017 19:09:34
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2883 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  00:08:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky

Well the way I interpret this ward it all evil aligned of that race, I dont think it applied to good aligned, like thielfling or half-demon or Drow who are good or neutral. It even more clear for me in Lost Empire.

"Antipathy (against lawful evil,
evil, and chaotic evil creatures, keyed to
demons, devils, drow, duergar, giants,
goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs, and trolls)"

Otherwise someone will have to define "keyed to" I dont think my werewolf follower of Elliastree will be affect either.



Actually, you're right. I'd been misreading the LEoF entry, which does fix and clarify the original unclear Silver Marches entry.

Keyed powers are defined under the mythal seed a page before.

If we go back to the antipathy spell entry in the Player's Handbook, it applies to creatures of a specific alignment or specific race/specific monsters (you have to pick specific choices of both, subtypes like evil or goblinoid don't apply). So the Silver Marches entry doesn't actually follow the rules for antipathy (evil, not specific alignments). Additionally, demon, devil, and so on are subtypes so those break the rules too.

LEoF clarifies this. That source's antipathy specifies each of the evil alignments - lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good - which follows the rules. It's three castings of antipathy, but that's no problem when you're creating a mythal. Then the antipathy is constructed as a keyed power - a part of the mythal seed which limits effects to specific types or subtypes of creatures. So the mythal applies antipathy to demons, drow, etc, and then if they're of those alignments, the antipathy effect goes off.

So from this reading, Ed's post makes sense - he is actually telling us that there is another token or another interpretation of a duraph token, tied to an alignment-agnostic antipathy that only covers the Vaelun. (not discussed in a printed source) Therefore, we have Eilistraee's drow in Silverymoon, and everything lines up. So my drow in my party can enter the gates, but would need a token to get into the Inner Ward - and a sympathetic Alustriel very well may have handed those to the Eilistraee worshipers in the city already.

Edited by - Arivia on 30 Oct 2017 00:09:03
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  16:23:29  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Sorry. I defer to the creator of the setting in issues concerning it.
And just because you insist there isn't an issue, that doesn't mean there isn't one -- especially since we're having this discussion.

Good.

quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Actually, you're right. I'd been misreading the LEoF entry, which does fix and clarify the original unclear Silver Marches entry.
Keyed powers are defined under the mythal seed a page before.
If we go back to the antipathy spell entry in the Player's Handbook, it applies to creatures of a specific alignment or specific race/specific monsters (you have to pick specific choices of both, subtypes like evil or goblinoid don't apply). So the Silver Marches entry doesn't actually follow the rules for antipathy [...]
LEoF clarifies this.

That's indeed a clearer description.
quote:
So from this reading, Ed's post makes sense - he is actually telling us that there is another token or another interpretation of a duraph token, tied to an alignment-agnostic antipathy that only covers the Vaelun. (not discussed in a printed source)

The source is explicitly unclear on the Inner Wards in general, indeed.
I'm not sure what exactly Ed meant, but he did specify "High Palace or various other locations in the city" and "without his having to enter via a city gate and walk the streets", which may refer to Inner wards and teleportation respectively.
But didn't specify which tokens. Then again, she could make custom ones if she wanted to - it's her ward. And for that matter, probably can locate them unerringly, short of one being in a dead magic area or removed from Realmspace. After all, drow house insignia allow this, and most of the guys who make and manage them are competent, but not quite archmages.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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