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Carnicemeno
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  17:56:53  Show Profile Send Carnicemeno a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello all,

I have a question concerning elven pantheon of Forgotten Realms a.k.a the Seldarine. I hope some more knowledgeable members of Candlekeep can answer it.

One day I was surfing the Internet and I found some pdf books about Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, Illefarn and other realms (mostly elven) of Forgotten Realms (I found them on DeviantArt, they were published under profile of phasai). In one of this pdf books, specifically Miyeritar: Land of the Great Sapphire Wood, was article about Hall of Twenty One Pillars (pantheistic temple to 21 Seldarine in Faer'tel'miir, library city of Miyeritar). Article pointed out that there were 21 original Seldarine and this temple was dedicated to these 21 deities - 14 present-day Seldarine, 3 exiled and 4 dead.

And these numbers caught my interest - because with known Seldarine pantheon I can't define who is who.

I think it's obvious that 3 exiled Seldarine are Lolth (formerly Araushnee, wife of Corellon Larethian), Vhaeraun and Eilistraee (Corellon and Lolth's children).

But who are the 4 dead Seldarine? I could not find any information about them. In same article there was a mention about fallen twin brother of Corellon Larethian - Astarellon, The Pathfinder. So let's say he is one of the 4 dead Seldarine. From other sources I also found Aranshaelaar, Goddess of Death and Balance (sister of Araushnee). There are no more info about her so I presumed she is also one of the 4 dead Seldarine. But who are the remaining 2?

Also there is problem of defining the 14 present day Seldarine who are members of 21 original Seldarine. From cannon sources I identified these 14 original Seldarine:

Aerdrie Faenya
Angharradh
Corellon Larethian
Deep Sashelas
Erevan Ilesere
Hanali Celanil
Fenmarel Mestarine
Labelas Enoreth
Rillifane Rallathil
Sehanine Moonbow
Shevarash
Solonor Thelandira
Gadhelyn
Ye'Cind

But it is questionable if Gadhelyn and Ye'Cind should be one that list because they are exclusive to Greyhawk setting and not to Forgotten Realms setting. So it leads me to question if some of newly introduced Seldarine are part of the present day 14 original members.

3 new members of the Seldarine introduced in source book Races of the Wild):

Alobal Lorfiril.
Elebrin Liothiel.
Vandria Gilmadrith

And another 11 members introduced in various issues of Dragon magazine:

Araleth Letheranil
Alathrien Druanna
Darahl Firecloak
Kirith Sotheril
Melira Taralen
Mythrien Sarath
Naralis Analor
Rellavar Danuvien
Sarula Iliene
Tethrin Veraldé
Tarsellis Meunniduin

And perphaps they are some gods/goddesses I don't know about? I found some gods on Angelfire site (but I think information found on that website are non-cannon). Gods/goddesses found on Angefire include:

Avachel Sotheril, The Sly One (God of Secrets, Spies and Assassins
Larini Tei'Theltiae, The Sword of Truth (Goddess of Warriors, Truth and Honour)
Khalreshaar Ven'Taegicyr, The Ranger (God of Rangers)
Nethra Ven'Khatesh, The Mistress of the Forest (Goddess of Nature)
Aphrael Sol'Arisa, The Fae One (Goddess of Poetry, Music, Dance and Eloquence)


So, can someone help me identify who are the 21 original Seldarine? Thanks in advance.

Also, pardon my english, it's not my birth language.

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  21:02:18  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It could be a reference to the fact that the Seldarine are somewhat a pantheon within a pantheon. Here is a quote from Demihuman Deities:

"In centuries past, before the Cha-Tel'Quessir (half-green elves of the Yuirwood) appeared in Aglarond, the Sy-Tel'Quessir of the Yuirwood adopted and co-opted ancient powers previously venerated by the primitive humans who had proceeded even the elven settlement of the forest. Little remains to mark the worship of these ancient powers, although their legends are still retold in the oral tradition of the Cha-Tel'Quessir. At the heart of the Yuirwood is the Sunglade, dominated by two concentric rings of stone menhirs. While each stone of the outer ring bears an inscription to a different member of the Seldarine, each stone of the inner ring is inscribed with the symbol of one of the gods of the Yuir. Of those ten stones, only four symbols are still eligible: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Magnar the Bear, Elikarashae, and Zandilar the Dancer. A fifth menhir is believed is believed to have once held the sign of the Simbul, the goddess of the edge and the moment of choice...All but one of the gods of the Yuir, weakened by the long absence of their faithful, were absorbed by the Seldarine when the Fair Folk first arrive in the Yuirwood, and they are now simply wild, primitive aspects of Rilifane Rallathil, Sheverash, and Lebelas Enorath, and the other elven powers. Only Zandilar the Dancer retained any degree of independence after the coming of the Sy-Tel'Quessir. However, she too declined in power and was forced to merge with the Mulhorandi goddess Bast" (pg 93).

The Seldarine are also closely linked with the deities of the Seelie Court. The first elves to arrive on Toril were the green elves from Faerie, and they at the time worshiped the gods of Faerie. The Seldarine, also immigrant deities, came to Toril a bit later. I haven't heard of some of the other deities you mentioned, but I am really only familiar with FR, and not Greyhawk. I have Races of the Wild, but I think that's core D&D, not FR. However, considering the above quote mentions ten rings, it is feasible that at one point, those Yuir deities were part of the original elven pantheon, but later merged with them, becoming primitive aspects. The numbers still don't quite add up, because 10+12=22, then if you included Araunshnee, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun, that would mean 25. However, if you subtracted Angharradh and Shevarash, as it is debatable whether they could be considered "orginal" (Ang having been created by Aedrie, Hanali, and Sehanine, and Shevarash starting out as a mortal and undergoing apotheosis), that would be 23, then took out Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, as they are offspring and came a bit later, though they are still quite old, but left Araunshnee, that would give you 21, if I did my math right.

Angharradh, Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Shevarash are all still old powers (Shev actually being the youngest), and Ang and Shev are part of the present day Seldarine, but if you want to go way back to find the 21 original, you may or may not want to consider them "original", as they are either offspring, or just came to the pantheon a bit later.

EDIT: or, it could be an obscured reference to the fact that, since the Seldarine are immigrant deities, there were 21 members where they originally came from, but only some came over to Toril. This is unlikely, but I am just throwing it out there.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 14 Oct 2017 21:48:22
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2017 :  00:48:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bear in mind, those documents you found are not canon. They are damn good mind you (they were made by snowblood), but not canon and they are a bit older. So, things may be off.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2017 :  01:17:05  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would probably be why I never heard of them lol

Sweet water and light laughter
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