Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Wizards power
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
147 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2017 :  20:12:29  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Have is understood correct: You want to program into some sort of simulation software, a scenario where 80 footmen with sword and shield goes against 10 super powerful archers skinned as wizards? And want to simulate all spellcasting for Red Wizards as missile fire with level based spells reskinned as damage dealing archery effects?

Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  08:03:49  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well not exactly ! Some of what you say is correct but not all ! It won't be archery effects as I can tweak the zone to try to model the effects of spells like Fireball, which has a bigger impact than just a single arrow !

What you said seems very restrictiv, but that is all the game engine allows us to do ... Being RPG players and game masters here, it might look like rubish to you, but for all the Faerun/Total War fans, what we are trying to achieve will be very fun as there are very few games, if not even any, where all Faerun has been mapped and factions playable. All we want to do is being as accurate lorewise that it is possible with the game engine. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?476733-Faer%FBn-Forgotten-Realms-TW-Updated-17-05-2014-first-units-for-AMN-(page-25)/

And as magic is a major aspect of Faerun, it has to be in the game, but as the RPG aspect is very limited, all we can do is use Wizards as war machines ! So I don't know yet if they will be used as archers or siege engines ! But I need your advice to know what power I have to give to these guys ! I have never played any proper war in paper D&D as large scale battles are pretty hard to manage for a single GM with only 2 or 3 players ...
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  12:01:47  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would suggest using mages as long ranged unit (like siege engines) and knights as heavy melee units. Anything closer will necessary draw a lot of questions as you can see above. You do not have tools for closer transcription into the game. They should be balanced on the same power level (take inspiration in-game form different units of those types). For high level contest I would suggest outcome of about quarter of knights making it to the mages if attacked the whole time so both units will basically annihilate each other if directed against each other.
Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  13:39:57  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your estimations ! Helps a lot. But according to what you said, they won't anihilate each other ... As when the quarter remaining soldiers will get into melee with the mages, none of them will survive ! So in the end, the quarter soldiers will ;-)
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2017 :  09:00:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All levels being equal, then no matter what (even accounting for the 'phantom' magic items) you're at 8:1 odds. With no surprise, cover, uphill charges, etc, etc, and all things being equal character-wise, I would say half the knights make it to the Red Wizards to lay waste to them (because even though the Red Wizards may be high enough level for area spells, the knights will be the same level and have counter-measures, like charging in a VERY loose formation.

I don't know how Total War works, but I've played other mass-combat fantasy games, and level is a huge factor, which is why I am just assuming the 'playing field' is dead even in that regard. And yes, most mass combat games still have leveling, usually in the form of 'troop condition'. You'll have things like: Green, 'Blooded', average, exceptional, veteran, and maybe 'crack troops', which will add multipliers to the combat factors.

So unless those wizards use there final piece of magic (before entering melee) to escape the battlefield, they are going to get riggity-wrecked. It will by a pyrrhic victory for the knights, however.

IMO, of course. I've been around since before video games - I even designed a couple of those cardboard-counter games back in the day. Overwhelming odds will always carry the day unless you have very high 'rate of fire'. You're positions get overrun - just look at the German's Blitzkrieg warfare. Even an enemy with a nuke isn't going to hurt you if he can't get it off the ground.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2017 :  12:47:30  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your estimations Markustay ! So on your side it is half of them making it ... Ok that was what I thought too. As the game uses some kind of random values, if I get to something like 40%, that might be satisfying too !

One last question, are level 9 spells like meteor swarm able to breach fortress walls ? Assuming these walls don't have any magic protections ...
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2017 :  17:24:30  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus

Thanks for your estimations ! Helps a lot. But according to what you said, they won't anihilate each other ... As when the quarter remaining soldiers will get into melee with the mages, none of them will survive ! So in the end, the quarter soldiers will ;-)



When 25% of one side remain on battlefield after a combat it is not much of a victory and that seems to me like a good result when two mighty groups clash. If you reduce that remaining amount they would not be able to clear the wizards and they would win absolutely (no casualities). If you go higher as Markus suggest than it would be a victory (not Pyrrhan as he says) for the knights.
It is a rough estimate and could be fine tuned by numbers in-game.
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2017 :  23:40:16  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus

Thanks for your estimations Markustay ! So on your side it is half of them making it ... Ok that was what I thought too. As the game uses some kind of random values, if I get to something like 40%, that might be satisfying too !

One last question, are level 9 spells like meteor swarm able to breach fortress walls ? Assuming these walls don't have any magic protections ...



In part it depends on edition you are using. Fire certainly can harm objects, a castle wall is an object, however objects also can have resistance without magical enhancement.

The best answer is a meteor swarm might harm a fortress walls. Circumstances apply as to if a breach occurs.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  09:32:29  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus

Thanks for your estimations ! Helps a lot. But according to what you said, they won't anihilate each other ... As when the quarter remaining soldiers will get into melee with the mages, none of them will survive ! So in the end, the quarter soldiers will ;-)



When 25% of one side remain on battlefield after a combat it is not much of a victory and that seems to me like a good result when two mighty groups clash. If you reduce that remaining amount they would not be able to clear the wizards and they would win absolutely (no casualities). If you go higher as Markus suggest than it would be a victory (not Pyrrhan as he says) for the knights.
It is a rough estimate and could be fine tuned by numbers in-game.


I see ! So I'll get around 25 to 40% ... Anyway, as the game uses random values, it can vary sometimes !

quote:
quote:Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus

Thanks for your estimations Markustay ! So on your side it is half of them making it ... Ok that was what I thought too. As the game uses some kind of random values, if I get to something like 40%, that might be satisfying too !

One last question, are level 9 spells like meteor swarm able to breach fortress walls ? Assuming these walls don't have any magic protections ...



In part it depends on edition you are using. Fire certainly can harm objects, a castle wall is an object, however objects also can have resistance without magical enhancement.

The best answer is a meteor swarm might harm a fortress walls. Circumstances apply as to if a breach occurs.

Well I should have asked : is meteor swarm strong enough to damage a stone wall (assuming it is a nomal city wall, not an extra reinforced one) ? Of course several of them would be necessary to create a breach. But I just need to know if the spell is not too weak ?

Edited by - Titus le Chmakus on 20 Oct 2017 09:32:59
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  12:15:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are all the wizards allowed to do is blast? Or will they be true wizards. For instance, laying down areas of magnetism against heavily armored troops can be a significant (and surprising) way to just foil any kind of rush charge. This can lead to wide confusion at the last second that can ultimately lead to death of the charging group. Similarly, they can phase into the earth, transport themselves magically to a new location, turn invisible to move invisibly to a new location. If they're just going to be area effect damage dealers, why even call them red wizards.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  12:36:50  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Under 3.5 fireball, thus meteor swarm does not harm stone. At best it can set wood on fire on might melt soft metals e.g. lead, silver and gold.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  13:50:01  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Are all the wizards allowed to do is blast? Or will they be true wizards. For instance, laying down areas of magnetism against heavily armored troops can be a significant (and surprising) way to just foil any kind of rush charge. This can lead to wide confusion at the last second that can ultimately lead to death of the charging group. Similarly, they can phase into the earth, transport themselves magically to a new location, turn invisible to move invisibly to a new location. If they're just going to be area effect damage dealers, why even call them red wizards.
Yeah well I understand it can be horrifying for you guys to have them only as area damage dealers, but that is almost the only thing the game allows us to do ! And I call them Red Wizards because they belong to the Thayan faction. Other are called simply Wizards ...

quote:
Under 3.5 fireball, thus meteor swarm does not harm stone. At best it can set wood on fire on might melt soft metals e.g. lead, silver and gold.
Yeah but meteor swarm is not supposed to be only fire !? There is a rock inside !?
Anyway, if you don't see any level 9 spell able to damage walls, that is better to me !

Edited by - Titus le Chmakus on 20 Oct 2017 13:56:39
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  15:27:05  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus



quote:
Under 3.5 fireball, thus meteor swarm does not harm stone. At best it can set wood on fire on might melt soft metals e.g. lead, silver and gold.
Yeah but meteor swarm is not supposed to be only fire !? There is a rock inside !?
Anyway, if you don't see any level 9 spell able to damage walls, that is better to me !



Well a closer look, you might argue that the 2d6 bludgeoning damage might harm a wall. If damage exceeds hardness. Hardness for stone is 8 and hit points for a wall is 15 per inch. A city or fort wall will be at least 3 foot wide at the smallest, that is 540 hit points to breech the wall. Most walls of fortifications would be wider a minimum 5 foot and could very well be 10 foot wide.

So every "meteor" that hits that causes 9 to 12 points of bludgeoning damage to a creature will harm the wall 1 to 4 points of damage. Rolling 4 12s hitting the same area will chip off one inch of wall.

So maybe 3000 strikes might get though a section of wall. I am not ready to calculate the actual odds. I will later if you really want the number crunch.

As to 9 level spell to damage items like walls, wish certainly could be considered.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
147 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  23:42:38  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Making fun mass combat mages don't take that many spells, just some. The Dungeon Keeper 2 game had fun warlocks, is any effects possible? Passive abilities, or summon spells?
Invisibility, some detection, teleport (short range, random), pick an spell per spell level, and you are ok. Or add an damage effect if the engine allows nothing else
Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  08:42:58  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers Kentinal, it helps a lot ! No need precise calculations, what you said is enough !

Starshade, I'll stick to mass damage dealer spells as the game engine was not made at all to have mages ! But thanks
Go to Top of Page

Martinsky
Seeker

Canada
21 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  04:36:02  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Kentinal I dont know where you saw stone are immune to fire. From Strongold builder book;
"Immunities and Resistances: As with other objects,
strongholds are immune to critical hits and subdual
damage. They take half damage from ranged weapons,
except for siege weapons such as catapults, ballistas,
and trebuchets (see below). Strongholds also take half
damage from acid, fire, and lightning attacks, and onequarter
damage from cold attacks. Divide the damage
by the appropriate amount before applying the wall’s
hardness. Sonic attacks do full damage."

That will still do (6d6/2)-8 fire by each meteor, so (24d6/2)-32. Plus the blugeing damage. Let say about 10 damage by cast with an unit of 10 wizard that do 100 damage already. Even at 1000hp by 10x10ft I can imagine with proper spell or proper energy those wall wont last long. (As for acid it half damage but it bypass hardness also like force or sonic).

Edited by - Martinsky on 25 Oct 2017 04:40:50
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  05:15:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky

@Kentinal I dont know where you saw stone are immune to fire. From Strongold builder book;
"Immunities and Resistances: As with other objects,
strongholds are immune to critical hits and subdual
damage. They take half damage from ranged weapons,
except for siege weapons such as catapults, ballistas,
and trebuchets (see below). Strongholds also take half
damage from acid, fire, and lightning attacks, and onequarter
damage from cold attacks. Divide the damage
by the appropriate amount before applying the wall’s
hardness. Sonic attacks do full damage."



That will still do (6d6/2)-8 fire by each meteor, so (24d6/2)-32. Plus the blugeing damage. Let say about 10 damage by cast with an unit of 10 wizard that do 100 damage already. Even at 1000hp by 10x10ft I can imagine with proper spell or proper energy those wall wont last long. (As for acid it half damage but it bypass hardness also like force or sonic).


I based on spell description
quote:
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.

The meteor swarm provides a fire ball spell effect.

One certainly argue that stone is soft as metals like gold. Indeed one can argue, despite spell description, that stone does take damage from fire ball that is different then melting.

As for fortified walls they would tend to be built to resist fire.

I took the view that the walls based on spell description and nature of construction would not be effected by the flames. I did not refer to the expansion of "Strongold builder"

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  07:22:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fireballs (and similar spells) could do fire/flame, heat, and force/blast damages - all expanded into comprehensively detailed tables in the "2.5E" rulebooks, lol. Hurling fireballs at walls and structures was effective enough to batter them down after a while, effective enough to be a common tactic when wizards were available but siege engines were not, though stoneworks would tend to be shattered and blasted apart more than they'd melt into slag. More intense burning from dragonbreath could melt stone, though.

At least as described in the 1E, 2E, and "2.5E" sourcebooks which predate this "Stronghold Builder" sourcebook.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Martinsky
Seeker

Canada
21 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  15:57:33  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"...the "2.5E" rulebooks, lol." @Ayrik said

That the best lol!

Well anyway I agree that most of wall will have some magical protection or at least basic enchantement.
For Meteor spell it vary from different source. If you take the version where you can hit one shot for 20d6 (if I remember well) it will bypass easily hardness. Instead of having to reduce harness for time it will only apply once. Another version I saw on the web have a trail damage, plus 4 medium comet or 8 small, but no bludging. IDk if it come from a book http://rpg20.com/spells35.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=308

Supposed version of 5th, but IDK if wall act the same in 5th. https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Meteor%20Swarm#content
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  16:36:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(But I like 1E and 2E and "2.5E", lol. I don't even mind 3E and 3.5E. I view each D&D edition as a "different" standalone game.)

Each (A)D&D edition inevitably offered two separate rulesets for such stuff anyhow.

The basic "character scale" RPG combat resolution where individual characters roll their dice, where exact attacks and damages to each combatant and each castle wall are resolved.

And some kind of "battle scale" wargame resolution where each unit represents some kind of group and the combat mechanics are more abstracted, the exact weapons and spells and the exact hit points of each man or each castle wall aren't as important as determining how many men can still fight and whether or not the wall gets breached.

A Total War simulation falls somewhere between. And it calculates "randomly generated" results with far greater speed and precision than is realistically possible in D&D-type rulesets. Each 80-vs-10 battle would take hours of preparation and hours of resolution on tabletop, while it could be run numerous times on a computer.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Oct 2017 16:39:55
Go to Top of Page

Titus le Chmakus
Seeker

41 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  13:44:31  Show Profile Send Titus le Chmakus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's right ! As we can set each individual some characteristics, the game can calculate all the rolls in just a few milliseconds ... But we need to set the values correctly !

So in the end, is it possible or not to damage walls with 10 wizards having at their disposal something like 5/10 level 9 spells ...? That will change the way I will code them ! Easier for me if not, but as we want to be the most lore accurate as possible, I wouldn't like to make mistakes ...
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000