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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 05:00:53
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| I think all deities follow "basic cosmic rules", but beyond that, I will agree it can vary based on the what the deity represents. You have more "concrete" representations, like the sun, moon, nature, etc. Then you have metaphysical aspects, like love, time, knowledge, etc. You also have the deities who are head of are racial pantheon (Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, Yondalla, etc), who not only head a pantheon, but also have their own portfolios and things they represent. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 05:34:01
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| Who is the "leader" of the Faerunian deities? And why? And what additional portfolios/things should this being represent, what additional "power" should it have? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 10:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Who is the "leader" of the Faerunian deities? And why? And what additional portfolios/things should this being represent, what additional "power" should it have?
Aside from Ao, who is more of a cop than a leader, there really isn't one for the Faerūnian pantheon -- not that there haven't been multiple deities who wanted that position.
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 12:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
And when I read long ago about the goddess Selūne working as a tavern wench it really bothered me.
I guess I don't like that much camp in my Realms? On some level, if I'm playing a high-minded, noble and serious priest of Selūne I think I'd be highly disappointed to learn about the wench avatar. I don't know. On a DM level, I think gods are supposed to be a little capricious now and then. But having an avatar literally work as a tavern wench for years? Why? What does that gain the goddess, other than regular pinch-bruises on her butt and drunks groping her goods?
That's far, far from the reality. In the old comic series called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons from DC Comics, "Luna", as she was known, was a portly middle-aged woman and was not a wench or maid but the tavern-keeper. So, no, one's groping her, except maybe men of a certain age or taste.
While I need to reread the whole series to the end, and work it up for the wiki, her real goal seems to be to be bring together and guide several adventurers to greatness, provide discreet aid, and undo the machinations of other gods like Malar and Shar, and aid others like Tyr and the Cat Lord, while preparing for the Time of Troubles. (Really, all the gods are struggling to live as mortals, and here's Selūne already quietly doing it with a life prepared.) Running a tavern is just a cover, and is a trivial task for a deity. Her identity is eventually an open secret among those who know her.
It's odd, but it makes sense for Selūne to take this motherly role. People often complain about her low power and lack of prominent role, but I think she likes it that way, so she can work behind the scenes and nudge events into motion. Shining a light from the darkness.  |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 13:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
A) Faith Battery size - yep, you get faith energy, but what happens if you don't use it right away? Some gods may have a bigger "battery" to store up for dry times. Of course, getting a bigger battery might mean that you have to give up something somewhere else in sheer raw power.
What does this mean in practical terms? The god becomes more "spiritually substantial", has a brighter aura, deposits energy into "bank of Ao"?
I think "surplus" power is invested into receptacles. Like Chosen. Or artifacts, or magical fonts and altars, or more generous manifestations of open power, granted spells, miracles, and the like.
quote:
B) Portfolios - this will help decide how much faith energy you might get. However, there's probably also some kind of maintenance cost to keeping and holding a portfolio to prevent gods from simply trying to take on more than they can handle. Also, unlike in previous editions, portfolios should not mean absolute control over the portfolio, but rather be used to "open paths" down which a god can expand their capabilities. Maybe consider them like prerequisites to certain abilities. Also, the means by which one "assumes" a portfolio might dictate how they have their "points" spent already for any abilities related to it. In other words, you kill and take over another gods powers, you may not get to freely choose what abilities you get. Also, if you don't have the proper "prerequisites" you may have to "drop" certain portfolios from someone you defeated, such that someone else can come along and pick them up (and maybe even freely spend the points they just gained).
Good thoughts. I imagine that portfolios hold more intrinsic power than you suggest, but it is often divided into smaller quantities when shared with overlapping interests of other deities. A single god claiming the portfolio of "yellow sunflowers" might hold great power across the entire cosmos if "yellow sunflowers" have no interest to other deities - especially if, for whatever reason, "yellow sunflowers" happen to be (or become) greatly significant aspect in the mortal worlds - but the power of this deity would be diminished when subsumed by deities governing flowers or plants or nature or growth or the sun, etc.
quote:
C) Follower types - you can fuel clerics. Maybe you can fuel druids. Maybe you can fuel Paladins. Maybe you can fuel rangers. Maybe you can fuel warlocks. Maybe you can fuel cleric AND druids AND ranger, etc.... Warlocks might be cheaper than say clerics to maintain, but you also get less "energy" or a different kind of energy as well.
I use the word "investment" to maintain the idea that it's not just "spending" or "allocating", it's also expected to provide something valuable in return. A priest/cleric is dedicated to a lifetime of serving the faith, praying, teaching, using granted power/spells to serve the deity's interests, sustain the faith. But a ranger or paladin or monk or whatever fills other "niches" which can keep the faith strong beyond the temple walls.
I imagine the "purpose" of a deity is more than mere acquisition of greatest power. More than mere acquisition of more faithful and more temples and more resources "on the ground". It's also (supposedly) the actual creation and maintenance of the things or conditions which their power represents. They're not burdened by "chores" or forced to "do a job". Their very existence and essence is symbiotically tied to the state of their portfolio. Silvanus is not just a power-hungry maker of druids, he also tends a "garden" which will grow wild with choking weeds or weak and sickly plants if left untended.
Lathander, it is assumed, must keep the sun in the sky so that darkness and shadow do not bring it down. Mystra, as we've seen several times, is not just a power-hungry Chosen factory, she must constantly maintain a volatile Weave which has a tendency to suddenly veer towards apocalyptic destruction.
Very good points. The main reason I point out "faith batteries" is that some deities (such as say Auppenser) have have had HUGE batteries, and that's why he can "sleep" for centuries and still not be dead. Other deities may have to have a near constant draw or they'll fizzle out right away. In fact, speaking on this concept, even the idea of some deities being able to "sleep" may be a unique "feat" ability or somesuch that they have to buy.
However, you also bring up good points in that how do these "faith batteries manifest". To some degree, these may be part of the god themselves or their home plane. However, we do have some excellent examples of these batteries in the Chosen of Mystra. I would also lay out that since I just gave the example of Auppenser... might we find out that there are still functioning udoxias hidden away, and that the creation of these udoxias functioned as some sort of magical faith battery and/or siphon for Auppenser? Might we find out something similar with mythallars for Mystryl?
You make valid points on the portfolios. For instance, while Deneir would receive some faith energy when someone scribes a glyph, so would Oghma and Mystra, but to a smaller degree. Totally understandable.
The main point of this wasn't though to create a system for designing gods. It was more to show that expecting that what happens with one god will happen to another just may not be true. Each god is "built" differently. So, while Mystra may be able to strip magic from Cyric because he doesn't truly understand the nature of the weave.... other deities who have more of a foundation may secretly snicker at Cyric behind his back because he didn't pick up X ability in favor of abilities to allow him to rise rapidly (i.e. the classic idea of someone who builds pure offense but has no defense). Yet, they don't tell Cyric, because he's literally an enemy of all other gods, and as he "falls apart" it allows other deities to take uup his slack.
In discussing though the concepts of how gods "might" work, it does open us up to how those translate into things within the world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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DarkExcalibur42
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 14:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Who is the "leader" of the Faerunian deities? And why? And what additional portfolios/things should this being represent, what additional "power" should it have?
Aside from Ao, who is more of a cop than a leader, there really isn't one for the Faerūnian pantheon -- not that there haven't been multiple deities who wanted that position.
Ao kind of subcontracts the job of keeping balance to the deities he employs. And he'll fire you if you screw it up. Just ask Bane. |
"I excused myself by saying that I had set down nothing which was not strictly true, and he replied to the effect that therein lay my fault."
--Sir Henry Rider Haggard |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 17:04:53
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We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
Can a deity siphon the "battery" of another? Could one deity violate sleeping Karsus or some nameless, forgotten "dead" god floating on the Astral? Or is this energy somehow specific to each deity, sort of possessing a unique "taste" or "polarity" or "chemistry" or whatever which is incompatible with any other? It would be interesting to see a "vampiric" Chosen, lol. I note that even Cyric never attempted to outright steal or leech another deity's divine energy directly, although he did attempt to steal faithful and he did claim energy "released" by deity's he'd "killed", so maybe it's just impossible to take what a deity actively denies giving. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 09:53:00
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well chosen whats his name had his revoked likely also taken by azuth or mystra herself... didnt read that novel
whats his other name got his revoked taken by azuth, not sure where sammy was at this point
adn then there was the sun elf girl, Elminster took it.
and then there was the symbol. ELminster took it.
Elminster gave those back to Mystra
I do not know about veledorn's battery, but then she was also a chosen of eilistraee too....
I think the netherese of shade and thay both were trying to steal divine batteries from chosen
nor do I know was happened to Sylune's battery either. being that Storm and Elminster also call shadow dale home.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 26 Sep 2017 09:54:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 01:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
Can a deity siphon the "battery" of another? Could one deity violate sleeping Karsus or some nameless, forgotten "dead" god floating on the Astral? Or is this energy somehow specific to each deity, sort of possessing a unique "taste" or "polarity" or "chemistry" or whatever which is incompatible with any other? It would be interesting to see a "vampiric" Chosen, lol. I note that even Cyric never attempted to outright steal or leech another deity's divine energy directly, although he did attempt to steal faithful and he did claim energy "released" by deity's he'd "killed", so maybe it's just impossible to take what a deity actively denies giving.
Hmmmm, Karsus getting violated.... there was that hole in the karse stone that the blood came out of....
On the topic of Karsus, what with his "becoming" a god and then not so instantaneously.... might he have been "reborn" as some kind of atropal in that between phase from man to god? Not sure that I like the concept, but floating it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 01:36:16
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I'm not sure I agree that there's a blurry boundary condition between mortal and god.
It seems there is a threshold, mortals on one side, deities on the other. You ascend and live forever or you fail and die real quick. Even "Rank zero" quasi-deities and exarchs and Chosens and mortal-born demigods and demi-heroes have an "eternal" existence. I think we are stuck with arrogant fools like Karsus and Cyric for eternity, no matter how "dead" or "dormant" their forms and powers and essences might be. Even a god killed or absorbed by another (Cyric vs Leira, Torm vs Bane, etc) can later be miraculously revived to living godhood (Cyric vs Leira, Torm vs Bane, lol). I speculate that even the most ancient deities continue to exist "eternally", even Tyche (who split into Tymora and Beshaba) and Mystryl (who was reborn as First Mystra) and Kozah (who was also Gruumsh and now Talos). If all deities are eternal then so is Karsus.
But consider his status more closely - he appears to be "dormant", not dead, not alive, not changing - exactly the sort of "stasis" condition you suggest. Is he cocooned in some sort of chrysalis, undergoing an (interrupted) transformation towards godhood? Is he simply dying, his energies imperceptibly dwindling and depleting over passing millennia? Is he imprisoned, inescapably locked/entombed within his shell as a consequence (or punishment) of his mistake?
I prefer the first possibility, the chrysalis, along with some "quantum" uncertainty - Karsus is the Realms version of Shrodinger's cat, and since it's impossible to know the outcome (or even the possibility) of Karsus "awakening" from his chrysalis-superposition, he can (for convenience) be categorically defined simultaneously as a god and as a not-god, the "between" state you suggest. The important detail here is that it's implied the "box" can (and must) be opened at some point for the experiment to conclude and the conditions/distinctions to meaningfully exist, we cannot determine/define/assert an exact status onto the cat or the Karsus without admitting (as at least a theoretical possibility) that it is a condition/event which can (even must!) eventually occur.
There also seems to be another threshold between gods and overgods, not a transition zone in between them. But we have no examples of any such in D&D lore, except (maybe, perhaps) Anubis as "half-overgod" of the Astral. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Sep 2017 01:46:07 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 02:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
I recall Ed posting somewhere - likely here at the 'Keep - that if a Chosen died, their silverfire/sliver of divinity was re-absorbed by Mystra. If however a Chosen was stripped of their special status (ala Sammaster) that sliver of divinity was lost to Mystra forever, weakening her in the process. As such, a decision by Mystra to strip an individual of their Chosen status was taken only extremely rarely.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
I recall Ed posting somewhere - likely here at the 'Keep - that if a Chosen died, their silverfire/sliver of divinity was re-absorbed by Mystra. If however a Chosen was stripped of their special status (ala Sammaster) that sliver of divinity was lost to Mystra forever, weakening her in the process. As such, a decision by Mystra to strip an individual of their Chosen status was taken only extremely rarely.
-- George Krashos
Close, but not quite. I recall this one, because it was in response to me:
quote:
Eds reply does indeed imply that once a being becomes a Chosen, Mystra can't reclaim from that person her own essence. You point out that that's exactly what is described as having happened to Sammaster: thru Azuth, Mystra's essence was removed from Sammaster.
EXACTLY. Sammasters silver fire was taken through the actions of Azuth, another deity.
Mystra can forcibly wrest her divine essence (the silver fire) directly from a mortal, but in doing so loses it forever, weakening herself (it does not find its way back to her in the normal way, but is GONE). So she wont do it.
That doesnt stop Azuth, working with her, from doing it (shed probably fight any other deity trying it on a mortal located on Toril, and win by using the Weave against them).
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Sep 2017 04:00:50 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:20:00
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"That doesn't stop Azuth ..."
An interesting weapon for Asmodeus's arsenal, if deployed against Mystra's Chosen within certain game/lore editions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"That doesn't stop Azuth ..."
An interesting weapon for Asmodeus's arsenal, if deployed against Mystra's Chosen within certain game/lore editions.
It also said "working with her", which pretty much precludes Asmodeus doing anything. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 05:32:13
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It was just a passing idea, lol. I'd somehow assumed from my first reading of the context that Azuth has the choice to work with or for Mystra (and might hypothetically choose to forcibly wrest the divine power out of a Chosen without Mystra's "consent" or assistance). It opens the question of how much free will and power Azuth possessed, whether he could (voluntarily) oppose Mystra, etc. All moot points now for a variety of reasons, lol.
Except for the idea of one deity forcibly wresting divine power from another deity's Chosen. Could the power be claimed/taken or would it be "lost forever"? Either outcome would suffice if the objective is just to weaken the other deity. What if the attacking deity is a higher power than the Chosen's deity? There must be some reason this isn't (can't be) done or it would've been done (many times?) before, a Chosen is a "weak" target (compared to a proper deity, anyhow) and some deities just don't play nice or obey rules. Ao forbids it? Asmodeus would be constrained by Ao's rules? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 16:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It was just a passing idea, lol. I'd somehow assumed from my first reading of the context that Azuth has the choice to work with or for Mystra (and might hypothetically choose to forcibly wrest the divine power out of a Chosen without Mystra's "consent" or assistance). It opens the question of how much free will and power Azuth possessed, whether he could (voluntarily) oppose Mystra, etc. All moot points now for a variety of reasons, lol.
Except for the idea of one deity forcibly wresting divine power from another deity's Chosen. Could the power be claimed/taken or would it be "lost forever"? Either outcome would suffice if the objective is just to weaken the other deity. What if the attacking deity is a higher power than the Chosen's deity? There must be some reason this isn't (can't be) done or it would've been done (many times?) before, a Chosen is a "weak" target (compared to a proper deity, anyhow) and some deities just don't play nice or obey rules. Ao forbids it? Asmodeus would be constrained by Ao's rules?
Maybe not so moot since he's back. Based upon what Azuth did to Savras, one can say he is power hungry to a degree. Also, given that if the "new" Mystra is the pre-ToT Mystra reborn OR the Simbul.... he may see both of these as petulant, arrogant personalities (after all, the Mysta I barged up the celestial stairway as an avatar and challenged a full god.... and the Simbul is known for her emotional outbursts). Azuth may actually see himself as a more stable steward of the weave, and honestly, I'm not sure that the other gods of magic would disagree with that (even Savras, since Azuth did eventually release him). Even alternative gods of "magic" like Deneir, Auppenser, etc... may see Azuth as a more viable choice.
Then again, with the whole idea of portfolios kind of being able to be shared with multiple deities.... i.e. you can have multiple gods of war... perhaps somehow it could end up that more than one deity is steward over the weave itself. For instance, if Azuth took on the portfolio of maintaining ley lines and extending them into magic dead areas via his clergy, it could begin to overlap with Mystra's maintaining of the "weave" (which is more than just the interconnected magic). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Sep 2017 16:27:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2017 : 05:27:01
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| The usual rule of thumb is that higher-power deities always trump lower-power deities. There could be countless complicating factors and exceptions, any intelligent deity would align favourable factors as much as possible before attacking, any defending deity would be supported by the faith, the Chosen himself/herself would be a combatant, but basically Greater Power (Mystra) always wins the arm wrestle vs Lesser Power (Azuth). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 04:28:20
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Some of what you said there Sleyvas gives me a few ideas. For example, what if Mystra is the Goddess of The Weave (Uh-DOH!). However, 'Weave Casting' on Toril was rather shoddy for the past century (actually nigh-impossible the first few years of the Spellplague), and it was never 'a thing' in/on Abier (or Maztica, and perhaps elsewhere, for that matter). So although Mystra was always billed as 'THE Goddess of magic', that was just her clever clergy and ease-of-use Weave that sold that piece of propaganda (I'm harkening back to one of my earliest theories now).
So in 5e, there are other methods of 'doing magic', and some of those methods might fall under another god's purview, or even a quasi-deity (like an arch-something), or even be completely free of any sort of 'divine controls' (I'm thinking Bardic magic would be a perfect example of this last one). So even though Mystra's 'back', things are very different now, and people just don't trust 'Weave Magic' the way they use to. Even casters who use it probably learn at least one alternate (take a dip into another class, or PrC, or whatever 5e is using for multiclassing). This leaves a rather big opening for other Powers, including those who used to 'work for' Mystra, like Azuth and Savras (and to a lesser extent, Velsharoon).
She's just not the 'Monolithic Uber-Power' she use to be, and she may never fully recover that, post-Spellplague era. Too much was lost because of the collapse of the Weave for people to ever feel comfortable fully trusting it with their lives again. Its like what happens when a nuclear power plant turns into an atomic explosion... no-one's moving next to another plant anytime too soon (the way Richard Lee Bryers described some of the effects of the 'Cerulean Wave' - turning folks inside out, and worse... that was The Weave itself uncoiling and wreaking havoc on reality). The post-Spellplage world was very much a post-apocalyptic world in many areas. Even Mystra can't recover from that much PR damage. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2017 04:30:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 04:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The usual rule of thumb is that higher-power deities always trump lower-power deities. There could be countless complicating factors and exceptions, any intelligent deity would align favourable factors as much as possible before attacking, any defending deity would be supported by the faith, the Chosen himself/herself would be a combatant, but basically Greater Power (Mystra) always wins the arm wrestle vs Lesser Power (Azuth).
She was a greater power before... however, all the gods of magic are newly returned (Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Azuth, Deneir, Mystra, etc...). Nothing says she is again, and as Markustay just noted, there may be some problems with people trusting the weave. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 05:38:42
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A great many spellcasters only gave Mystra "lip-service" in AD&D editions. There are descriptions of manly old-school Red Wizards seething under the tacit requirement of worshipping Mystra (a good-aligned, egalitarian, and decidedly female deity), they'd circumvent this requirement by invoking some other deity (Kossuth, Myrkul, Velsharoon, Xvim, even Azuth) instead whenever possible.
I completely understand WotC choosing to de-emphasize and abandon these sorts of misogynistic notions in Realmslore. And I agree with it, no need to perpetuate outdated forms of discrimination onto impressionable young minds moving forward.
But on the other hand, these "traditional" evil-wizard stereotypes are just that much more despicable when embellished with these sorts of close-minded prejudices. I imagine it would be easy to explain Red Wizards (at least the "traditional" ones) automatically "hating" Mystra and distrusting her Weave, turning to other (more reliable, and - to them - more palatable) alternatives. Likewise other evil groups like the Cult of the Dragon, the Shar-worshipping Shadovar, Bane-worshipping Zhents, etc. In fact, a great many groups (evil, neutral, even good) turning away from Mystra and towards whatever deities they prefer.
I think this sort of thing could collectively represent a significant loss of power for Mystra. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:06:42
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| Are there any canon examples of Chosen vs Chosen conflict? To the "death"? Any conflicts between Chosens who nominally serve the same deity? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:29:20
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why yes
Sammaster was once a chosen of mystra.
and he was corupted by a preist of bane iirc which caused him to attack alustriel etc.. . along came a few more chosen to her aide.... caused him to be stripped nakid of hsi chosen ability.... till he gets killed and rises again as a lich just to fall again. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:41:25
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True. Really the only example I'm aware of.
I suppose Laeral's situation was a bit of a special case, too.
This sort of speculation seems to be more suitably determined by story plot/narrative than by game rules/mechanics. As in, each circumstance is unique and "complicated". |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Sep 2017 06:42:32 |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 10:55:20
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This is going to be a bit of a long post for me, and reffering to older posts here.
Firstly, the term for the types of being Eltheron wants the characters to become is Quasi-Deity, not Demi-God. Demi-Gods need power, hold a portfolio and need Ao's permission. Quasi-Deities do not and gain an aspect of the God's power, such as unaging, resistance to damage and more. They are unable to gain power via being believed in.
Being a Chosen is merely one way to become a Quasi-Deity (QD). Another is to be born to a Deity. Face it, how can something who has just been born have enough worshippers to become a God? Sometimes mortals recieves traces ofsuch power.
Passing on power to others, even Godhood does not require death of the one passing it one. For example, the Deadly 3 recieved their Godhoods from Jergal, and he's still around. Tempus made a mortal a God of some tribes of barbarians, and both are still around.
Avatars tend to die when their core God dies, but Hosts can live on. One Host of Bane tried to regain Godhood by absorbing the powerof a Chosen of Mystria. He failed as he happened to have the body and submerged memories of a lover of hers, and she managedto free the unwilling host.
The bodies of Gods can contain power, and their Divine Spark. Asmodeous himself devoured the Divine Spark in the body of Azuth, after the explosion caused by his death sent his body into the Nine Hells.
A God who becomes one by taking the power of another God is often overwhelmed and becomes a version of the (such as Tiamat).Even Gods can be affected. Look at the history of Sharess and Selvetarm. However, strength of will can allow mortals overcome this (for example, Finder and a son of Bhaal who had the chance to become God of Murder due to being the last such child remaining from some murdering the rest. He killed the other last one who was part of that group.)
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Originally posted by Eltheron
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AH! Philosophical and fictional metaphysics! A debate I can enter feeling prepared. I think that for most deities there is some minimal, raw, lower limit that they can fall to. A point at which the only thing sustaining them is half-forgotten legends, faint memories, and dream stuff. In fantasy worlds like this, where belief makes gods and the mind and soul really do have separate existences, I think ideas like the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious]collective unconscious[/url] play a role. There must be some fragments or bits of barely remembered belief lumped into the racial memory of humanity (or other species) tapped into through this shared unconscious, giving just enough energy for a god to avoid total dissolution.
I think you could argue this memory of a god could last for however long it takes for worshipers to remember it. However, if you want or need a time pressure on it? Then you should apply one.
I love these kinds of world-building ideas too, and going back and forth figuring them out. I say world-building because it will eventually impact the way my particular version of the Realms will work on a cosmic level. I hope I can do what I want without it being too much of a giveaway for my players, as it's never good for them to know the nuts & bolts of a setting, kinda spoils the fantasy fun in some ways for them.
I love the idea that bits of recorded history and half-forgotten legends could be a kind of faith that sustains a dying deity. It also makes me think about when societies transform or come into conflict with others, how gods can be killed, merged, or re-imagined having a new role in whatever new system emerges for that culture. Personally, I prefer it in fantasy when the world's own history, what the people do and believe, are more important. D&D tends to have fairly active deities that show up sometimes asking for dinner, though, which gives a lot of agency to the deity itself.
I remember on FR book where a girl managed to call on the mostly forgotten Gods of a tribe of people in prayer to aid her. The entire tribe was almost forgotten to history, and the Gods were just minor story characters in legends. Still, weak as they were, they had an effect.
Lloth once killed a Goddess and tried to have her name erased from existance, but that failed. The Drow Goddess of Undeath tried to make a weapon to erase another Deity's name from existance, but it was used on her and it destroyed her.
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Originally posted by Eltheron
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If I recall correctly, they didn't used to be so limited by the faith of their followers. That was something Ao did after the Time of Troubles, wasn't it?
I think Faith is almost a limitless power source to a deity, and I get that idea by way of my partial read-through of Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons (FR source book). The Divine Rank stat is as close to a representation of how much worship a deity receives as I think we're going to get. But Divine Rank isn't something you spend that recharges, it's a measure of "this is all the stuff you can do". So the power they get from worship is sort of inexhaustible, but the feats they can perform with it increase in strength as the amount of worship does.
Yes, I think I did read somewhere that AO made them much more dependent on faith from followers, taking down all of their power by a notch or two. Divine rank bothers me a little, in that I'd kind of prefer a system where a god might not have a ton of worshipers but still remain quite powerful, but I think D&D designers wanted deity power to be a bit more driven by numbers (I guess so it'd make sense when players want to attack a deity or its avatar).
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I'd say so too! Because I'm a little confused on all of what you just said there...
Like Midnight became the goddess of magic, Mystra. When she did, she gained much of the former goddess's knowledge and memories (probably because she'd been entrusted with a fragment of the goddess), but it wasn't her absorbing another god and merging with it. Just sort of downloading the memories.
Cyric didn't gain any of that. He killed his way to the top. Nor did Kelemvor when he lead a coup in the underworld, seizing the title from Cyric. He relied on Jergal for the knowledge of past gods of death.
What examples would you want to share on this one?
Oh sorry, by having a kind of "shell" I was avoiding the words "persona" or "skin" for a god. For example, in the Piers Anthony series about the gods, you'll have mortals step in and take the place of a previous mortal who held the "office" of a god, and they're literally moving a new person into the same body or shell that has existed forever.
In the Realms, as you said, new gods like Kelemvor or Cyric can take the power of previous gods, and somehow reject all of the memories of that former deity. I think Finder did something similar, rejecting practically everything about Moander except the power (and curiously, I think, holding a new portfolio that challenges Milil, both existing in the primary pantheon with much the same function).
But then other gods die or have their power absorbed, and the person or other god absorbing that power seems to be totally overwhelmed with and becomes swamped with the memories and personality of the dead god (the former "shell" if you will), and they either merge personalities or the dead god will overwhelm them. Mystryl becoming Mystra might be a good example, but also I think here about Lolth totally swamping new mortals that she absorbs (they become an avatar form) and Bane completely subsuming his son as part of his rebirth. Then we have weird stuff like Lathander and Amaunator (and perhaps another "dusk god" form) who seem to evolve into their other personas at need.
I'm almost beginning to wonder if different rules apply for different gods, sometimes. :)
As far as I can see the same rules apply for all.
About Finder gaining a seemingly new Domain for Art,that is not actually breaking the rules. He explained it to Joel, his Chosen Priest. When he got Corruption, he also got things like Change, Nature, and part of the Cycle of Nature. The opposite of Corruption is Renewal, and by being able to affect Corruption he can thus affect Renewal. He focused it towards art, giving him that Domain for his Portfolio. He is not break the rules, but corrupted them, which is it totally allowed to do as part of his Domain of Corruption.
Milil holds Song or Art. Finder holds Renewal, although possibly as an aspect of Corruption.
Put another way, Finder has corrupted the rules in his own favor. With Lathander down, he may be unopposed for Renewal.
Mystria may seem all powerful, but is not. In one of the books about Cyric's trial, she tried to get a God of learning to help her oppose the others, (I think it was Deniar), but he asked her if she could provide his people with healing when the other would not give it, Sunlight when Lathander would not, calm the storms Tempus makes, and more. She had to admit she could not.
For worshippower meaning power, A God's Domains can influence things. During Lloth's Silence, the Drow Demi-God of Warriors managed to defeat the Masked Lord, an Intermerate Drow God of thieves and assassins when he tried to assassinate Lloth.
But back to what the thread was meant to be about: A group of adventurers could become Quasi-Dieties by recieving power from a Demi-God, or even something Divine power has been stores in.
If the power is given the the group by a Demi-God, it would be split up enough so none would be a Demi-God themselves.
If the Demi-God figured it was going to be killed by another God, then that would be one way to deny it's killer it's power. |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 13:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
The bodies of Gods can contain power, and their Divine Spark. Asmodeous himself devoured the Divine Spark in the body of Azuth, after the explosion caused by his death sent his body into the Nine Hells.
[...]
Lloth once killed a Goddess and tried to have her name erased from existance, but that failed. The Drow Goddess of Undeath tried to make a weapon to erase another Deity's name from existance, but it was used on her and it destroyed her.
This actually makes me wonder if a creature can ever truly take the divine spark of a god, or if the divine spark of a god can ever truly die. In other words, from all the events that happened in the Realms, it seems to me that the spark of a deity is connected to the deity's identity, and that they are basically immune to being actually stolen or destroyed.
We know now that, while Asmodeous took Azuth's divinity, he 1)didn't gain his portfolios 2)Azuth wasn't actually killed. He wasn't dead when he landed to Baator, it was Asmo that supposedly killed him. However, it turned out that Azuth wasn't completely subdued, and he ended up freeing himself with his own divine spark (although that required Asmodeus being provided with the spark of another dead god).
Kiaransalee's memory wasn't actually erased, and she wasn't actually destroyed. She kept holding power on--and being remembered in relation to--the things that were closest to her. Namely, undeath and related rituals. This allowed her to return in full (just like Orcus too returned).
All the memories and identities of the previous versions of Mystra are part of her new incarnation.
Jergal willingly gave away his portfolio, but he still is divine.
Deities that were killed by weapons supposed to destroy their very essence, either managed to come back like a normal dead power could (Selvetarm), or were even revealed to have actually survived, only to return to their full strength later on (Eilistraee--even though, in her case, only a particular kind of avatar was hit by the weapon, not the goddess herself. Truth to be told, the artifact had also lost power, so both cases are rather arguable).
Finder took Moander's power (btw, Lathander is no longer down, and he wasn't when Finder got his power), Lolth took many of his followers, yet Moander still has a spark of divinity, and that's enough to make him able to influence the world and be a warlock patron, and to potentially make him ascend again in the future.
In short, in the end, it seems that a divine spark always tends to go back (or remain with) its rightful owner/identity and that it can never truly be destroyed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Sep 2017 13:38:55 |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 15:55:13
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I think that summed up, Ao is the only one there who can truly make or destroy a Diety.
(The type of Avatar of Esterlee killed is called a Host)
I personally think all these world shaking events are just an excuse to change the world IC to reflect changes for new editions that will be made.
A possible IC excuse given for them being that Ao is shaking things up when his charges upset the balance too much. That's how I'd like to imagine it.
Of course, it means Ao is a bumbling idiot for allowing things to get this bad and not stepping in to fix the problems properly. |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 16:26:50
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I don't think even Ao can truly destroy a deity forever. Even mortals are hard as heck to completely destroy.
First, you'd have to completely turn the God mortal somehow, which is pretty hard in itself. Then you have to take the 'spirit' of the god and throw it in the River Styx. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2017 : 01:44:59
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| Only in the revolving door that is death in the Forgotten Realms. Other pantheons have deities that are well and truly gone. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2017 : 07:13:36
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I don't think even a planar phenomenon like River Styx can truly "erase" a god. It can certainly brainwipe the immersed being, sure, and it's a seemingly eternal cosmic fixture so its power is unlikely to be diluted by passing ages (along with future edition changes). But the Styx does not wipe out the external faith. Memory always passes to history then to legend then to myth, all things die and decay given enough time, so even faiths and distantly dim or distorted records of faiths cannot endure forever. Yet the Astral is filled with "dead" powers who no longer have any identity or any worshippers or any consciousness ... and which still remain as indestructible symbols of lost faiths and lost belief constructs ... it appears that whatever divine "spirit" or "essence" created these gods has also created an indelible imprint on the cosmos. Some of these "dead" and "lost" powers are "resurrected" or "reincarnated", Anubis is one "recent" example, the githyanki city-god "Tu'narath" might be another (they revere and worship it in some way to siphon divine energy), and Moander in the Realms might be yet another.
It's interesting to note that (then mortal) Finder was "erased" from existence in something of the opposite manner. All memory, all history, all records, all hints of Finder's whole life and existence, even his name, was erased from the Realms (through methods unknown but involving Elminster and probably the god Milil). Imperfectly erased. Still remembered by a few mortals. Still enough traces remaining for Cassana to (re)discover Finder and release him from imprisonment. All evidence of Finder removed from the world, yet he and his own memories left intact aside from extracting all knowledge of his (former) identity.
- Reincarnated souls often retain memories of their former lives and qualities of their former identities. Even after dying and being reformatted.
- Elven spirits and dragon anima also retain some echoes of their former selves when returning from their afterlives. More faded and difficult to recall after many centuries or millennia, though.
- "Petitioners", souls/spirits/etc of the deceased who attain "eternal" afterlives on the Outer Planes, also recall (and relive) their past lives, although their recollections get hazy over time and they eventually lose themselves while dissolving/merging into the substances of their deities and planar realms.
Overall it's pretty much the same thing, in the end, as those unfortunates who are stuffed into the Wall of the Faithless, if each ultimate "destination" in the afterlife is becoming an "eternal" part of whatever was loved/believed most when living - although the process itself, for those outside the Wall, is likely not as unpleasant.
- Orcus and Graz'zt still retain some fundamental remnants of their evil mortal selves, even after their souls have been consumed and corrupted and transformed through ever higher (lower?) orders of raw evil potency.
- Planescape: Torment's Nameless One (who may have been "Yemeth" or Zerthimon in his earliest lives) is an immortal cursed (tormented by) tangled and disjointed half-recollections of his own endless pasts (which sometimes manifest as independent "incarnations" acting to aid or oppose him), he's been dosed with lots of Styx yet cannot escape the constant "reminders" he encounters of his "old" selves in a world filled with people who remember him/them.
So I agree that it's impossible to truly "destroy" an eternal soul/etc. There's powerful magics which can bring back memories of past iterations, though the most ancient and distant ones are increasingly inaccessible. There's even a recurring theme of sorts in which (through whatever sort of "godlike" intervention) a soul reaches it's "limits" when stretched across too many lifetimes without being able to forget. Combine this with a deity's "indelible imprint" on the cosmos (which might become a thing intuitively embedded deep within the subconscious mind/instinct of potential faithful ever-onwards) and I think it is truly impossible to "destroy" a deity. Even for an overgod like Ao. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Oct 2017 07:42:15 |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 18:42:52
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I found that Artus Cimber is regarded as Chosen of Auril. He doesn't seem to be her worshipper or even close to one. Looking deeper he has the Ring of Winter. Could it be that the chosen power resides in items as well as beings? The ring is sentient after all.
With this I submit the dragon masks once assembled as some similar power as Tiamat needed them to return to the world, thus answering my questions about why a chosen of Tiamat wasn't in the ritual...it was, only as a great mask..subtle.
Any speculations and comment welcome. |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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Speculation on deity "fragments" held by mortals
