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irondogs
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  17:05:10  Show Profile Send irondogs a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Is there any information on how often high/low tide occurs in Faerun? Here on earth the tides occur about every 12.5 hours and the lunar cycle is about 29.5 days. I know that Selune's lunar cycle is close to 30.5 days. I'm not a physicist nor an astronomer, so I'm not sure how this difference affects the tides. Anybody have any ideas?

Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  17:43:42  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The quick answer, using your numbers is about 12.9 hours. There however can be other factors such as the Tears of Selune (Their mass and obits) which could effect how reqular the tides occur.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1518 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2017 :  14:53:29  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

The quick answer, using your numbers is about 12.9 hours. There however can be other factors such as the Tears of Selune (Their mass and obits) which could effect how reqular the tides occur.

Could they matter? If they're on a Trojan orbit, they're at the same distance as the moon itself.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2017 :  15:45:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

The quick answer, using your numbers is about 12.9 hours. There however can be other factors such as the Tears of Selune (Their mass and obits) which could effect how reqular the tides occur.

Could they matter? If they're on a Trojan orbit, they're at the same distance as the moon itself.



I would not see them making a big difference, there though could be variations even for objects in Trojan orbit (Actually only two points are near Selune) the rest of the Tears might be near a point and the orbits should be near stable to stay a Tear. They however could be elliptic sometimes nearer or further from the planet thus altering centers of gravity intensities effecting the tides. With out knowing mass and actual orbits it becomes impossible to determine how much or little effect Tears might cause.
It is possible that tides might start a little sooner or later, or tides just might be of variations of height. Also it clearly is possible the Tears have no detectable effect.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30649 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2017 :  17:19:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not an astrophysicist, but I'd expect that the tide caused by the Tears of Selūne is part of the tide caused by Selūne. At most, I'd expect a secondary high/low tide, so much smaller than the primary that it's almost not noticeable.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1518 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2017 :  22:00:02  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they are "fixed" trailing Selune, they would indeed produce more of a weird echo, not a separate rhythm.

Details are kind of weird, however. For "proper" Trojans the angle should be greater (60 degrees). Maybe they are just on Selune-stationary orbit? Thaough that may be even weirder in roximity of a larger planet..
Then again... it's not Newtonian physics, it's Spelljammer physics.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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irondogs
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  14:57:26  Show Profile Send irondogs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info, eveyone!
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Rils
Learned Scribe

USA
94 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2017 :  00:30:54  Show Profile Send Rils a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Note that tides may be different depending on where you are. The closer to the equator you get, the more "even" they are. I live in Seattle, somewhere around 47.5degN, and there are four distinct tides a day, in the following pattern - high-high, low-low, low-high, high-low. The difference between high-high and low-high (and corresponding lows) can be ten feet or more. And of course, they are at different times every day, the tide cycle is not 24 hours.

To keep life easy, I'd just equate local tides to equivalent latitudes on earth. It's close enough.

Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6478 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2017 :  06:59:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I live in Vancouver, just a few hours away from Seattle. We get two tidal cycles (high and low, high and low) each day, roughly 12 hours apart. Then again, we're not exposed directly to open ocean, Vancouver Island is a big tide-break, so we might be missing out on Seattle's reported tidal weirdness, lol.

Powers like Selune and Umberlee might be able to influence tides in Faerun. Although perhaps they are "not" really able to profoundly alter tides on a global scale (just like a national leader does "not" really have the power to initiate a nuclear war) without irrevocably diminishing their power. I think localized tidal anomalies should be possible in the Realms, even if they only manifest as a symptom of certain deities becoming weakened.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  19:13:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hadn't bothered to participate in this thread when it came around, because a previous discussion became 'heated' as to whether the SoFS has tides or not (and since it is roughly the size of the Great Lakes, the answer would be 'yes', but so minuscule as to be negligible). Thats as close to a 'consensus' as we were able to get. HOWEVER, while looking for something to complete a map, I came across this in the PotFS source book.
quote:
The Fang Rocks are a cluster of natural reefs lying to the northwest of the Pirate Isles, and are not themselves islands (except at very low tide).
Thus, despite any logic to the contrary, the SoFS does have noticeable tides. That means my idea for the Sharksbane Wall (in 4e) would have worked - the wall could be above sea level at extreme tides, because of the lowering of the water level in 4e. Of course, none of that matters now, because Ao snapped his magical fingers and reset everything in 5e.

But, ummmm... I was right.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2017 19:14:08
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6478 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  20:37:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tidal effects can become far more noticeable when the underwater terrain/topology is shaped in such a way that large volumes of water need to move between open/deep areas and confined/shallow areas. So even the "miniscule" tides in the Sea of Fallen Stars could still produce large tidal shifts on the shores.

I note that the other planetary/celestial data we have about Toril and Selune (and all of Realmspace) is often inconsistent and difficult to fit within "working" models within our physics. Tidal ephemera for Toril are, at best, only approximations based on assumptions (guesses) ... not based on the precise measures and calculations available for tides on our world. And in the Realms we already know there's sometimes different "physics" for gravity and orbits and stuff like that, complicated even more by celestial objects (like Selune) being actual divine manifestations, not to mention of course magic in its entirety.

For all we know, the invisible Weave has more effect on Toril's tides than the invisible gravity of Selune.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  01:14:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*meh*

I think Toril has an 'invisible moon'. Thats whats causing the extreme tidal effects when there shouldn't be any.

I have this theory there is a 'black moon', which you cannot see against the night sky, which stay on the 'dark side' (so its never on the 'daylight' side). Some tricky physics involved there, but nothing impossible. Now, you might ask why the sars don't disappear in a circle section of saky (thus, enabling sages to 'see' where it is, even if they can't see the moon itself. My old theory was that it was an illusion, just like the one on Selūne, that mimics the background star pattern ('cloaking'). However, thanks to 4e I have an even better rational - the reason the moon can't be seen is because its 'out of phase' with Toril.

In other words, its in the same place as Abeir, but can't be seen from Abeir, because of the steelsky. However, even though the physical object is 'out of phase', energy is NOT, and the gravitic effects would still come into play on Toril (hence, all the weird tides explained).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 01:42:58
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6478 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  01:25:41  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A "cloaked" moon which has never been seen from Toril or from Abeir or by any spacefaring travellers?

Krynn has a dark moon, of course, which cannot normally be observed by any nonmagical means, which is nonetheless known and located and factored into their arcane astrology.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
936 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  02:02:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For what we know of Abeir position regarding Toril (it's in Realmspace, just "out of sync"; and the two planets share Selune and its tears), Abeir could be this "shadow moon".

(Yey, 800 post!)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Nov 2017 02:03:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30649 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  04:42:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

A "cloaked" moon which has never been seen from Toril or from Abeir or by any spacefaring travellers?

Krynn has a dark moon, of course, which cannot normally be observed by any nonmagical means, which is nonetheless known and located and factored into their arcane astrology.



It can be observed, sorta, during conjunctions, especially the Night of the Eye.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6478 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  05:31:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, Krynn's dark moon (Nuitari) can be observed - at special times under specific conditions.

What I was trying to suggest is that it seems unlikely to have a world's moon remained entirely unobserved, undiscovered, and unknown. Particularly if it influences (and explains) other things which can be observed ... like tides. As, again, even Krynn's "dark" or "invisible" moon has (very rarely) been observed ... why have no such observations (or any hints or mysteries or speculations at all) ever been offered in any Realmslore which suggests a dark moon might orbit Toril?

I would think (overlooking that we understand this is a physical "impossibility" in the way orbits work) that a satellite somehow always hidden behind (linearly eclipsed/occluded by) another satellite wouldn't have any independent effect on tides ... the gravitational attraction of both together would effectively behave as if they were both "one" satellite. While, of course, a satellite in orbit around a planet positioned "on the opposite side of the sun" would be far too distant to have any measurable effect on tides at all.

But of course this is the Realms, Toril and Abeir and Selune and the Weave, so who knows, eh? One could always say a "portal" orbits Toril (and another orbits Abeir), since portals are the easily digested panacea which explains all other anomalies in the Realms, lol.

Another factor which can influence tides in surprising (and persistent) ways on even our world is seismic activity. Not necessarily an active volcano nor even a thermal vent on the waterbed, merely geological activity or features deep "under the surface" which produce different thermal zones, these phenomena can force water flows or convections strong enough to affect local tides.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Nov 2017 06:03:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  06:31:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then again, we didn't know about an entire other planet sitting in the same exact 'space' as Toril, until recently.

My point is, if its sitting in this pocket-dimension that Abeir is in, it would be seen from Abeir, but the 'Steelsky' thing interferes with people seeing anything outside the atmosphere - the Abeirrans have no idea what else is in their 'system'.

Making Abeir the 'ghost moon' could be interesting, Zeromaru (congrats on the post-count, BTW).
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

A "cloaked" moon which has never been seen from Toril or from Abeir or by any spacefaring travellers?
You know how spelljamming ships 'go missing' every once in awhile? Thats them finding the moon... the HARD way.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 06:32:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  07:05:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what if Abeir (and whatever else we want to imagine, like this theoretical moon) is inside its own 'crystal sphere', and the outside of that has an illusion on it that makes anyone looking at it see whats on the other side (it projects the stars 'in back' of it onto its front). Since its magical, instead of technological, each 'viewer' can look from a different angle and see what they're supposed to see - the stars behind it (which is why just "swinging around the other side" won't work - the illusion is omni-directional). Even if it had a moon, it wouldn't be all that big, compared to the size of Realmspace (which is supposed to be the biggest sphere, but others sources conflict with that). If you took something the size of Earth and its moon and put a bubble around it, and then zig-zagged all over our solar system blindly, the odds of you hitting that bubble would be miniscule.

EDIT:
Getting back to the topic, and how this relates - such an object (with one or more objects inside it) would have its own gravity, and if it passed close to Toril, it could easily cause tidal problems. There could even be a once-a-decade 'super tide', or even a once-a-century (millennia?) 'great flooding'.

Hmph. Who knows... maybe the Chondalwood elves got blamed for something that was a natural phenomena on Toril...

"I swear! The ritual was just supposed to make them all trip over their shoelaces! I have no idea where all that water came from!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2017 22:25:13
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe

USA
228 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  04:03:43  Show Profile Send Xnella Moonblade-Thann a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

A "cloaked" moon which has never been seen from Toril or from Abeir or by any spacefaring travellers?
You know how spelljamming ships 'go missing' every once in awhile? Thats them finding the moon... the HARD way.

I can only imagine the scenario when they find the "invisble moon" the hard way...I can see the captain is furious at his inept crew, the engineer is completely at a loss for how to fix such a massive "dent" in the spelljammer, and the on-board doctor is up to his eyeballs in injured crew members and they have limted medical supplies since most of them were destroyed in the crash...

"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell

Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.

Somehow I'm missing my Eberron stuff that the gremlins took when my laptop died over a year ago, but I shall get them buggers yet!
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  14:54:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

For what we know of Abeir position regarding Toril (it's in Realmspace, just "out of sync"; and the two planets share Selune and its tears), Abeir could be this "shadow moon".

(Yey, 800 post!)



Also, if we combined the tears on both sides, they may create another moon. Not saying they're staying in anything mirroring each other, but more like "portions" of a moon possibly in Abeir transferred to Toril and became a string of satellites in Selune's orbit, and that if the two were to transfer both to the same place now you'd have a misshapen mess... but if someone were to somehow try to fit them together like puzzle pieces, it might work. Also, Leira's illusion covering the moon may have something to do with this (possibly her illusion does something that hides the influence of the shadow moon).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  22:58:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except quite a few of them have 'fallen to earth' over the centuries.

On the other hand, I think most of those 'Tearfalls' were NOT the Tears of Selūne themselves, but other... objects that were drifting around Realmspace (*cough* pieces of dead 'gods' *cough*).

I think in the 'Final Battle' (which was probably between Shar and Selūne, but now with 4e/5e lore maybe not), something happened to Shar. I'm not quite sure what, but she was 'lessened' (we KNOW she lost quite a bit of power, according to the myths). I personally feel this 'lessening' went a bit further - either that her physical body (if she ever even had one) was destroyed (The Tears), or, that she is somehow imprisoned, possibly INSIDE Toril itself (and my guess would be under The Shaar... for obvious reasons). AFAIK, only FR has 'Shadow dragons', BTW. Living in it's Underdark. However, aside form the final conflict between those two, we know there was much more to it than that - even the earliest lore regarding the War of Light & Darkess mentions others, as do the draconic myths. And then we have all that 4e/5e lore regarding primordials and what-not.

And Telos 'fell to earth', apparently whole-cloth. That changes things, from my perspective. Spelljammers may have missed the fact that a LOT of Realmspace's cosmic detritus was just that - chunks of organic matter (pieces of 'dead gods'), but I doubt anyone would have missed entire Gods floating about (despite my other assertion above that you'd be hard-pressed to run into an invisible planet in a solar system 'by accident', because of the vast distances involved... Unimaginable distances). Thus, despite 4e/5e lore to the contrary, Realmspace couldn't have been filled with the comatose/dead forms of sleeping gods (primordials, estelar, etc.).

Or could it?

It could have been, if all of the were 'out of phase' with the normal (D&D) universe... and we already have lore to that effect. so what if Abeirspace completely overlaps Realmspace? That Ao didn't just twin the word, he twinned the entire sphere? One 'out of phase' with the other. This means just about all that cosmic debris leftover form the Godswar would have been shunted into Abeirspace, which would include the 'dead' (sleeping) primordials and others. THUS, when the Spellplague occurred, it wasn't just Torl that was effected, and parts of Abeirspace swapped with parts of Realmspace, and that's why we have Telos (and maybe others) crashing to earth (Toril) during the Spellplague - they just materialized in the path of the planet! Gods knows what else happened out in space that we haven't been privy to.

Now, what's this got to do with the current topic, and how it relates to the OP? From my extremely basic knowledge of astrophysics (and even more basic knowledge of Quantum Mechanics), the whole reason why we have 'strong forces' and 'weak forces' is because the different dimensions effect each other on different levels, but no matter how 'far apart' (not really accurate, but I'm speaking in terms of 11-dimensional space so forgive my ineptitude), these dimensions are, they DO affect one another. This is why we can't (perhaps ever) create an accurate model of the universe - there are forces in effect we are unaware of and can't even begin to fathom, let alone measure. However, taking the most basic premise here - that there are forces we can neither see nor measure (hidden away in 'other dimensions') that CAN effect our physical universe, that means it is theoretically possible that another planet, moon, etc., passing 'through' us could effect us, even subtly. I think this was even hinted at in some of the Spellplague lore immediately following 4e's release - that these sort of 'conjunctions' have occurred before, in the past.

So maybe Shar's moon - the missing (Dark) Moon - is indeed in Abeirspace, and although 'out of sync' with Toril, it can still affect things like tides, just not as much as Selūne does. Heck, if the two planets themselves aren't in the precise same orbits, the planets could even affect each other (and that would appear to be the case - that these 'conjunctions' are not constant, but far-and-few-between). In really rare instances, you could have Selūne and Shar overlap, which would increase the tidal forces exponentially.

Yes, I suppose I am reaching here, but I need some sort of reason for extreme periodic tides other than 'its magic'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2017 00:41:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14885 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  23:11:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I just started (bing) watching Stranger things yesterday, so that may be the reason why I am thinking about 'universes next door' to us. Universes that don't notice us until we (stupidly) notice them. That's a very Lovecraftian concept, BTW. Even us sense-deprived mere humans are able to 'feel' when someone is observing us. Animals certainly can. Science dictates that no experimental result is conclusive because the mere act of observation affects the outcome (more of that 'energies we know nothing about affecting stuff'). I theorize that the act of observing something creates a 'psychic pressure' upon the object, and those sensitive to it can tell they are being observed (be it human or... something else). Emotions can also be felt along that conduit.

But now I am stepping outside of FR/RPG talk and getting into some of my RW theories. Apologies.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2017 :  00:37:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Except quite a few of them have 'fallen to earth' over the centuries.

On the other hand, I think most of those 'Tearfalls' were NOT the Tears of Selūne themselves, but other... objects that were drifting around Realmspace (*cough* pieces of dead 'gods' *cough*).

I think in the 'Final Battle' (which was probably between Shar and Selūne, but now with 4e/5e lore maybe not), something happened to Shar. I'm not quite sure what, but she was 'lessened' (we KNOW she lost quite a bit of power, according to the myths). I personally feel this 'lessening' went a bit further - either that her physical body (if she ever even had one) was destroyed (The Tears), or, that she is somehow imprisoned, possibly INSIDE Toril itself (and my guess would be under The Shaar... for obvious reasons). AFAIK, only FR has 'Shadow dragons', BTW. Living in it's Underdark. However, aside form the final conflict between those two, we know there was much more to it than that - even the earliest lore regarding the War of Light & Darkess mentions others, as do the draconic myths. And then we have all that 4e/5e lore regarding primordials and what-not.

And Telos 'fell to earth', apparently whole-cloth. That changes things, from my perspective. Spelljammers may have missed the fact that a LOT of Realmspace's cosmic detritus was just that - chunks of organic matter (pieces of 'dead gods'), but I doubt anyone would have missed entire Gods floating about (despite my other assertion above that you'd be hard-pressed to run into an invisible planet in a solar system 'by accident', because of the vast distances involved... Unimaginable distances). Thus, despite 4e/5e lore to the contrary, Realmspace couldn't have been filled with the comatose/dead forms of sleeping gods (primordials, estelar, etc.).

Or could it?

It could have been, if all of the were 'out of phase' with the normal (D&D) universe... and we already have lore to that effect. so what if Abeirspace completely overlaps Realmspace? That Ao didn't just twin the word, he twinned the entire sphere? One 'out of phase' with the other. This means just about all that cosmic debris leftover form the Godswar would have been shunted into Abeirspace, which would include the 'dead' (sleeping) primordials and others. THUS, when the Spellplague occurred, it wasn't just Torl that was effected, and parts of Abeirspace swapped with parts of Realmspace, and that's why we have Telos (and maybe others) crashing to earth (Toril) during the Spellplague - they just materialized in the path of the planet! Gods knows what else happened out in space that we haven't been privy to.

Now, what's this got to do with the current topic, and how it relates to the OP? From my extremely basic knowledge of astrophysics (and even more basic knowledge of Quantum Mechanics), the whole reason why we have 'strong forces' and 'weak forces' is because the different dimensions effect each other on different levels, but no matter how 'far apart' (not really accurate, but I'm speaking in terms of 11-dimensional space so forgive my ineptitude), these dimensions are, they DO affect one another. This is why we can't (perhaps ever) create an accurate model of the universe - there are forces in effect we are unaware of and can't even begin to fathom, let alone measure. However, taking the most basic premise here - that there are forces we can neither see nor measure (hidden away in 'other dimensions') that CAN effect our physical universe, that means it is theoretically possible that another planet, moon, etc., passing 'through' us could effect us, even subtly. I think this was even hinted at in some of the Spellplague lore immediately following 4e's release - that these sort of 'conjunctions' have occurred before, in the past.

So maybe Shar's moon - the missing (Dark) Moon - is indeed in Abeirspace, and although 'out of sync' with Toril, it can still affect things like tides, just not as much as Selūne does. Heck, if the two planes themselves aren't in the precise same orbits, the planets could even affect each other (and that would appear to be the case - that these 'conjunctions' are not constant, but far-and-few-between). In really rare instances, you could have Selūne and Shar overlap, which would increase the tidal forces exponentially.

Yes, I suppose I am reaching here, but I need some sort of reason for extreme periodic tides other than 'its magic'.



Along these lines, one of the "great secrets" that we don't know about may be why the people of Selune (although they call the moon Leira) won't let anyone delve INTO the moon. I've posited that perhaps the moon's inhabitants are the shadowfey/ellefolk/Arak and they keep some of their folk hidden on the interior.

But, what if you can actually walk into the moon's interior walk down some caves and actually come out in Abeir (and vice versa). What if the true reason no one is allowed to go to other parts of the moon is that those parts that are in a flux state, almost like plaguelands, passing back and forth between the two worlds. Not sure if I like it, but worth discussing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
936 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2017 :  00:48:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there any official product to read about the moon?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 28 Nov 2017 :  00:56:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think this was even hinted at in some of the Spellplague lore immediately following 4e's release - that these sort of 'conjunctions' have occurred before, in the past.


In fact, is outright stated in the 4e FRCG. This is from pages 50 and 51:

quote:
Some sages suggest that the two worlds have undergone periodic conjunctions ever since they diverged, but that these were too subtle for most creatures to notice. By an accident of timing, the Spellplague occurred during just such a conjunction, which caused the briefly overlapping lands to run athwart each other instead of passing in the night as before.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 28 Nov 2017 :  01:01:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, now we'd be getting into all the conjecture (practically made canon by newer hints) that Shar and Selūne are indeed the 'same person'. Ao couldn't precisely separate the two, because they ARE the same, and thus only managed to put 'most of Shar' over in Abeir (or wherever - I'm leaning towards 'put the body in one place and the mind in another' scenario - that's been done before, with Tharizdun, I think).

So, since the two 'are connected', they remain connected... beneath the surface (because 'beneath the surface {unbeknowst to FR mortals), they ARE the same/connected). You can literally enter one and exit the other - the perfect way to get between Toril and Abeir. Well, almost perfect, there's still 'space travel' to contend with. And the Leirans.

Like you, not really loving it, but I figure I'd throw something out there for the discussion. One moon is merely 'the other side' (in a dimensional manner of speaking) of the other. You know what might make this all work out and kinda neat? If the 'other dimension' Abeir was in was the Shadowfell... that would make a LOT of sense. Its like another Ravenloft. is literally the 'dark version' of Toril. Thus, when someone travels to the Shadowfell, maybe they are in a part of Abeir (But I am thinking an underground part, since there is no sky - not even a silver one). Hmmmmmmmm...

Heres an odd thought, related to another idea I had about Abeir: The Hollow World. Except now I'm going to flip it. Suppose we have this Shadowfell Toril (which we do - there's supposed to be a 'shadow version' of everything in the Prime Material). Now suppose Ao is desperate to 'separate the sides' after the Godswar, and instead of completely twinning the planet, he just borrows some of its mass and builds an 'outer crust' on the Shadow-Toril. So basically, Shadow-Toril is now inside a larger 'world' - it literally became part of the Underdark of Abeir at this point. Thus, if you can travel to the Shadowfell from FR, and you manage to find a tunnel leading 'up and out', you can get to the surface, and find Abeir. A bit convoluted, but it could all work. A world within a world. The 'stealsky' keeps the Abeirans from knowing they're in the Domains of Dread.

You can even go full-bore Ravenloft, and say that's how the dragons and primordials remain in control of certain areas (they are 'Domain Lords'). Heck, my other idea of sticking the Birthright (Aebrynis - similar, no?) campaign world on Abeir works even better now - that also has the concept of 'Domain lords' similar to RL's, including many monstrous 'Lords'.

I wonder who Abeir's 'Dark Powers' would be?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2017 01:05:14
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