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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  13:05:14  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Musing and I had a question.
I just saw a Sage Advice column where it was clarified that Mystra is not the source of magic in Faerun, but that she is the maintainer of the Weave.

It's my understanding that all magic uses the Weave, except Shadow Weave Magic, but that seems to be gone after the Spellplague.

It's also my understanding that after the Spellplague, during the 4e era, the Weave was broken and magic users had to learn to cast without the Weave.

Now that the Sundering (not to be confused with the Spellplague) is over, magic has returned to Weave based.

I'm guessing that means anyone that learned to cast Art minus the Weave during 4e is being forced to return to Weave based magic by Divine edict?

Or does that mean that magic users might exist that still know how to cast when the Weave is absent, but with the Weave repaired, they can't operate because the Weave stands between them and raw magic?

I'd like to keep speculation to in-world ideas, if I may.

My goal here is to see what sort of schools of thought different mages might come up with regarding the way magic works in the current Realms and weave those bits of information and misinformation into my home campaign.

Thanks in advance!

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)

Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  13:17:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all magic uses the Weave, but the Weave is the "conduict" for most magic styles to work. However, the Weave is not the magic, the Weave just conduct and refines raw magic (magic energy in its purest form), making safe for spellcaster to use.

Raw magic can be used without Weave (even if the Weave is working), but is hardest, dangerous and spells aren't as... how to say it, malleable as spells created using the Weave. Using raw magic is like trowing a stone. Simple, crude. The Weave allow you to mold magic to give desired effects and sub-effects (like, metamagic feats or casting at a highest level spell slot).

My theory is that people can still use magic the way it was used before the Weave was repaired, but as the Weave is repaired casters just use it because is better.

As Markustay puts it, why you will use DOS when you can use an OS like Windows to operate your pc?

You can read about Raw Magic in the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Raw_magic

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Sep 2017 13:19:47
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  15:29:42  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Not all magic uses the Weave, but the Weave is the "conduict" for most magic styles to work. However, the Weave is not the magic, the Weave just conduct and refines raw magic (magic energy in its purest form), making safe for spellcaster to use.

Raw magic can be used without Weave (even if the Weave is working), but is hardest, dangerous and spells aren't as... how to say it, malleable as spells created using the Weave. Using raw magic is like trowing a stone. Simple, crude. The Weave allow you to mold magic to give desired effects and sub-effects (like, metamagic feats or casting at a highest level spell slot).

My theory is that people can still use magic the way it was used before the Weave was repaired, but as the Weave is repaired casters just use it because is better.

As Markustay puts it, why you will use DOS when you can use an OS like Windows to operate your pc?

You can read about Raw Magic in the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Raw_magic



So, if a Mage views Weave magic as a better OS, I'm kinda wondering what the parallel "Mac vs PC" arguments would be within the Realms.

If Weave magic is your preferred OS, what counter arguments would Mages that disagree offer?

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  16:17:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
comparing to computing is a good way I feel to get an idea of what Mystra is doing. Especially because to take an example there are gods of bardic magic. There are gods of necromancy. There are gods of illusion. There are gods of divination. There are gods who might be considered to have control over elemental forms of magic. The goddess of love might be considered to have some control over mind control magics dealing with love.

So, all these spells are exactly like what we view them as in rulebooks. They are some template with guidelines to them (level, range, damage, save, special conditions, duration, associated school, what classes can use them, etc...). This standard template is then "copied" to all realities using the same "ruleset" (i.e. 5e for instance, whereas some worlds may use basic D&D ruleset with its spell templates). On some level, I truly believe that all the gods have the ability to try and change these templates. However, these changes have to be approved up a chain that ultimately goes to Mystra. In some instances, there might be something like a committee over certain spell types. So, for instance, it may be that Myrkul, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, and other death/necromantic types would have to agree on changes to necromantic spell templates (say for instance spell X they decide isn't just for wizards and sorcerers, but clerics should have it too). It might then have to pass up through the chain of approvals to Azuth as god of wizardry, since its lessening the power of wizards by giving it to priests. Then Mystra approves it, and "suddenly the weave has evolved". Some of those gods of necromancy may then pass down this new "long-hidden" "magical secret" to their priests through dreams and they put it into some kind of prayerbook and it spreads. Others may force their priests to do magical discovery to find it out.

In a similar way, if the gods of music decide that they should have some illusion spell, then Oghma, Milil, and Finder may need to agree to change it. Leira may need to agree to accept it. Then Azuth. Then Mystra.

In a similar way, if someone wants to discover a new way for glyph magic or scrolls to work, Deneir and Thoth may both need to agree, then up the chain. If Milil wants to change how Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments work, they might have a straight line to Mystra. Some gods may want a "deposit" of powerful transmutation magic in location Y.

The lower level committees may even negotiate for approval to send up the chain with their peers, trading favors in the form of "you approve my spell and I'll approve yours" or "hey, I need some help down in this city, if you want me to approve that...". In the end, you don't have to build out this hierarchy at all, just presume that this is the kind of bureaucracy that is in place. This may be why spells are always changing. However, it all assumes that Mystra is at the top working as the admin, and probably feverishly denying request after request (though Azuth and her other assistants in magic probably help filter things). So, what happens when Mystra "dies"..... anything in the queue possibly gets approved, even if its insanely unbalancing, conflicting with other effects and well broken... and as a result, magic "goes wild".

Now, there may be some factors that prevent gods just steadily barraging Mystra with requests for changes in an attempt to overwhelm the system. For instance, maybe sending over such a request involves giving up a small portion of divine power, so they really have to think about the changes they want to make and whether they'll be accepted.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  16:31:55  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

comparing to computing is a good way I feel to get an idea of what Mystra is doing. Especially because to take an example there are gods of bardic magic. There are gods of necromancy. There are gods of illusion. There are gods of divination. There are gods who might be considered to have control over elemental forms of magic. The goddess of love might be considered to have some control over mind control magics dealing with love.

So, all these spells are exactly like what we view them as in rulebooks. They are some template with guidelines to them (level, range, damage, save, special conditions, duration, associated school, what classes can use them, etc...). This standard template is then "copied" to all realities using the same "ruleset" (i.e. 5e for instance, whereas some worlds may use basic D&D ruleset with its spell templates). On some level, I truly believe that all the gods have the ability to try and change these templates. However, these changes have to be approved up a chain that ultimately goes to Mystra. In some instances, there might be something like a committee over certain spell types. So, for instance, it may be that Myrkul, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, and other death/necromantic types would have to agree on changes to necromantic spell templates (say for instance spell X they decide isn't just for wizards and sorcerers, but clerics should have it too). It might then have to pass up through the chain of approvals to Azuth as god of wizardry, since its lessening the power of wizards by giving it to priests. Then Mystra approves it, and "suddenly the weave has evolved". Some of those gods of necromancy may then pass down this new "long-hidden" "magical secret" to their priests through dreams and they put it into some kind of prayerbook and it spreads. Others may force their priests to do magical discovery to find it out.

In a similar way, if the gods of music decide that they should have some illusion spell, then Oghma, Milil, and Finder may need to agree to change it. Leira may need to agree to accept it. Then Azuth. Then Mystra.

In a similar way, if someone wants to discover a new way for glyph magic or scrolls to work, Deneir and Thoth may both need to agree, then up the chain. If Milil wants to change how Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments work, they might have a straight line to Mystra. Some gods may want a "deposit" of powerful transmutation magic in location Y.

The lower level committees may even negotiate for approval to send up the chain with their peers, trading favors in the form of "you approve my spell and I'll approve yours" or "hey, I need some help down in this city, if you want me to approve that...". In the end, you don't have to build out this hierarchy at all, just presume that this is the kind of bureaucracy that is in place. This may be why spells are always changing. However, it all assumes that Mystra is at the top working as the admin, and probably feverishly denying request after request (though Azuth and her other assistants in magic probably help filter things). So, what happens when Mystra "dies"..... anything in the queue possibly gets approved, even if its insanely unbalancing, conflicting with other effects and well broken... and as a result, magic "goes wild".

Now, there may be some factors that prevent gods just steadily barraging Mystra with requests for changes in an attempt to overwhelm the system. For instance, maybe sending over such a request involves giving up a small portion of divine power, so they really have to think about the changes they want to make and whether they'll be accepted.



I'm really liking this idea. I've always run with a parallel idea that changes in spell slots per day, or some spells from older editions getting lumped into a single spell could be explained as Mages learning to... Code more efficiently?

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  16:52:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

If Weave magic is your preferred OS, what counter arguments would Mages that disagree offer?



I guess that one of the most hotted debated topics among current age spellcasters in the Realms would be "why I have to limit myself with the Weave, that imposes me a 'limit' to use spells, when I can use spells every five minutes without it*, albeit if not as effective as spells created with the Weave" vs. "because the Weave is more reliable, gives you better control of your spells even if limits your magic to x number of spells per day, and gives you the ability to shape your spells to better effects and powerful effects, and is the 'norm'".

However, it seems that current spellcasters somehow combined both kinds of 'spellcasting', using spell slots for powerful spells, but "infinite magic" for low-level spells (cantrips, that are just 4e at-will spells). The old Weave (the 3.x and earlier editions' one) had limits even with low-level spells (mechanically, you expended spell slots with those spells).




*4e encounters powers recharged every 5 minutes in in-universe time.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Sep 2017 16:54:19
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  16:57:17  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

If Weave magic is your preferred OS, what counter arguments would Mages that disagree offer?



I guess that one of the most hotted debated topics among current age spellcasters in the Realms would be "why I have to limit myself with the Weave, that imposes me a 'limit' to use spells, when I can use spells every five minutes without it*, albeit if not as effective as spells created with the Weave" vs. "because the Weave is more reliable, gives you better control of your spells even if limits your magic and the ability to shape your spells to better effects, and is the 'norm'".

However, it seems that current spellcasters somehow combined both kinds of 'spellcasting', using spellslots for powerful spells, but "infinity magic" for low-level spells (cantrips, that are just 4e at-will spells). The old Weave (the 3.x and earlier editions' one) had limits even with low-level spells (mechanically, you expended spell slots with those spells).




*4e encounters powers recharged every 5 minutes in in-universe time.



So it's a debate of which is more preferable to your designs, that makes sense. It can also mesh with my above idea that "I want it now" magic has evolved over time. Some mages might even say that, eventually, in theory, we'll understand Raw magic well enough that casting 9th level magics like today's cantrips might be possible.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  17:17:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not only that, but also the fact that most spellcasters may have become anarchic over the course of one hundred years (why is this goddess controlling my magic? I have done magic the last century without her, thanks), or even wary of the Weave (and what if another Spellplague happens? Mystra has died thrice, a fourth time is not illogical), while maybe others may have become protective of the Weave-based magic for the same reason (we cannot leave Mystra to die again, we have to use the Weave to maintain her!—yeah, after seeing her dying twice in just a three decades [Time of Troubles and Spellplague], I imagine some spellcasters kinda paranoic about the topic).

Then we have the evil guys that want to use magic for their own devices, and now have the means. On the other hand, we also have the mages of the long-lived races, that may have been frustrated by the... un-malleability of the raw magic, and now that there is a Weave again, are happy because their spells will function they way the liked once more.

So, I guess, if you play a heavily magic campaign, this kind of debate can be amusing, even if left in the background.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Sep 2017 17:18:55
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  17:57:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

If Weave magic is your preferred OS, what counter arguments would Mages that disagree offer?



I guess that one of the most hotted debated topics among current age spellcasters in the Realms would be "why I have to limit myself with the Weave, that imposes me a 'limit' to use spells, when I can use spells every five minutes without it*, albeit if not as effective as spells created with the Weave" vs. "because the Weave is more reliable, gives you better control of your spells even if limits your magic to x number of spells per day, and gives you the ability to shape your spells to better effects and powerful effects, and is the 'norm'".

However, it seems that current spellcasters somehow combined both kinds of 'spellcasting', using spell slots for powerful spells, but "infinite magic" for low-level spells (cantrips, that are just 4e at-will spells). The old Weave (the 3.x and earlier editions' one) had limits even with low-level spells (mechanically, you expended spell slots with those spells).




*4e encounters powers recharged every 5 minutes in in-universe time.



Bear in mind what I said of the above. The weave itself isn't edition specific. When the "base templates" of the spells/magic system were 2e, the weave was 2e. When the "base templates" of the spells/magic system were 3e, the weave was 3e. When the "base templates" changed to 5e the weave didn't stay vancian, rather Mystra's base that she chose to use is 5e. However, so far, she's already approved several spells that may be unique to Toril and not other settings (for instance, the cantrips booming blade, green-flame blade, lightning lure) as well as some class options that may be specific to Toril (i.e. like bladesong, storm sorcery) OR that she may have gotten copied up to the "master template" that works throughout the multiverse (via passing the rules up to Ao, who may have presented them to other overgods, who may allow said rules to work elsewhere).

I would also bet that some of the rulings for the base template of other worlds may get passed to Ao and shoved down on Mystra without her having the option to not accept them. So, for instance, if Greyhawk introduces some class options, Ao may say "yeah, we'll take that if you take THIS".

Again, all without actually having to detail this stuff, but we can understand that this kind of monotony may be using up large portions of a deity's time.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  18:03:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess the closest analogy to 'Apple OS' would be Shadoweave users. They're an elitist bunch. LOL

And then we have people who use more primitive (yet perhaps more powerful) variants, like Rune Magic (Dwarves and Giants use that, and probably other we do not know about). Rune Magic would be like a version of Linux.

The folks who learned how to do magic in a 'Weaveless' world would be akin to people who either learned one of those earlier languages/OS's, of which DOS is merely one option. And then there are guys like Elminster. In fact there may be only ONE 'Elminster' - he programs in Assembler (those 1's and 0's that Neo sees in the Matrix movies - in fact, that is a PERFECT comparison because that IS how El sees Magic - there is a scene - in Elminster's Daughter, IIRC - wherein El literally 'plucks threads of Weave' out of the air, moves them around, and changes the magic that someone else created. He isn't just 'good at magic', he literally sees the universe beyond the magic - the 'underlying truth' of it all. AND he is the ONLY mortal that has ever spoken directly to Ao (not counting ones he immediately made into Gods, like during the ToT). In fact, Ao shows him more respect than he shows many of 'The Gods'. If El hadn't been hampered with holding together whatever little of the Weave and Mystra were still left during the 'Dark Century', I do not think he would have been as depowered as everyone else. We've seen him casting on at least three other worlds - one of which - the Saurial world - may have even been Abier! And even if that wasn't Abeir, he still cast magic easily on Eberron (in the online game), and that is a CLOSED SPHERE, and he also casts magic with impunity on Earth, which is a 'magically dead' world by most standards (but to be fair, so do the other mages in the Wisards Three articles). And we KNOW he's been to Oerth (GH), although we do not have a sampling of that (and one can assume he doesn't have a problem there, either).

Which brings me to another, related point - there are nueorus examples of Mages being 'Planeswalkers' in D&D lore, and a whole bunch from FR. One would have to assume that all of them wouldhave to first learn how to cast without the Weave, otherwse none of that makes sense (or we'd have to imagine a never-before-spoken-of McGuffin - some sort of 'Mystras Amulet' - that allows a Torillian to bring a small piece of the Weave with them). I think there may be some sort of 'automatic mechanism' where this is involved, but with a timer. Lets say a Mage just learning how to cast the planes-traveling spells goes to another world. I'd say its like how air works with Spelljamming - a small piece of the weave is attached to the person as they leave, and it will 'dissipate' over time (or maybe, depending on how quickly you 'use up the magic'). That means a powerful mage cannot simply go to another world and start blasting away, because he'll quickly go through his available power, which is a nifty way of imagining the universe 'governs itself', and why some worlds do not simply take-over others. The other side of that is time - even if the Mage isn't slinging mighty spells with reckless abandon, eventually it would dissipate anyway (much the way an air-bubble around a SJ ship does). So that also puts a nice time-limit on how long Mages can stay on other worlds without 'learning their ways' (local magic physics). Guys like Elminster - and probably Nezram and a few others - probably use Raw magic when the Weave runs out, which means extended Planeswalking takes an extremely high level mage. In Nezram's case, he most likely studies the 'local physics' so that he can work within its rules, because he does tend to stay-away from Toril for extended periods, quite beyond anything anyone else does.

Which puts Nezram on-par with Elminster, at least in that one regard. Halaster is probably another. I think Larloch wants to be, but he seems to be glued to Toril (his lichdom may be linked to The weave, in fact, which is why he hasn't gone multi-spheric as so many other uber-liches have). Larloch seems to keep himself entertained using portals to spy on other places, and yet, not go to them (Ed has said he can cast magics through portals of all types, including ones never meant for that sort of two-way usage). He HAS traveled to the 'Wood Between the worlds', though, int hat one shoe=rt story. But as I've conjectured elsewhere, i think thats reall the 'Mittlemarch' - the old 'Border ethereal', and The weave does extend into that (so if he is limited to where the Weave is, then he should be able to at least travel to that place). We know the Shadoweave most certainly extend to the Shadowfell, and the Shadowfell itself extends everywhere, but that does not mean the Shadoweave does (although I am sure Shar is trying to 'grow it' all the time). The Shadoweaves probably manifests as a 'bubble of magic' within the Shadowfell (in the vicinity of Realmspace), that is slowly growing (Shar's Domain?) Eventually it should reach other worlds, but it will take a LONG time doing it that way.

However, AFAIK, we've never heard that Larloch uses the Shadoweave, and given the fact that he is "Halasters opposite" (sort of), and Halaster was connected to Shar for the longest time, he probably doesn't. The only problem I have with all my own suppositions is that Silver Fire (Spellfire) hurts Larloch - it is anethema to him. So if his particular form of Lichdom is connected to the Weave itself somehow, that would be odd indeed. Neither of those gentlemen is 'evil', per se, they are both simply 'amoral' (neutral), so they are beyond those simplistic terms. Also, it would make more sense if Halaster used the Weave and Larloch used the Shadoweave, just because of who (and what) they are and what they've done. We'd have to know in what manner was Halaster "Shar's creature" - to what end was she using him for? (and it DOES have to do with the Road of Starlight & Shadows; of that I am 100% sure, and Larloch is involved directly with that as well).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2017 18:17:24
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  18:43:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess that Spellfire hurting Larloch is kinda logic. You said in a post that the Weave is the power of life/life itself. And Larloch, even if connected to the Weave, is a lich, the "un-life", so to speak. So, he maybe is connected to the Weave, and may depend on it to live, and the refined/depowered magic-energy that the Weave normally transmits to not hurt the normal, mortal spellcaster, may not affect him. But the pure essence of the Weave? That is another beast altogether.

Is like we humans. We need water to live, but too much water will kill us.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Sep 2017 18:45:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  18:50:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yeah, if I go back to my computer analogies, its like using Microsoft explorer to download Chrome (I just did that yesterday - trying to setup a new computer) just because Micro/Windows HATES Chrome doesn't mean it won't let you do it, so I guess just because the weave does not like any sort of magic associated with death/shadows/negative energy, its still going to let you do it (lest you 'go elsewhere' for your usage from now on).

Or like how the owner of a Sports bar I am sure has his own favorite teams, but he'd be an idiot to ban the fans of other teams (or how some 'ebil gods' use Mystra's Weave, and Mystra lets that happen, even though both probably aren't really happy with that situation). In other words, the benefits outweighs the risks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2017 02:17:38
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  19:11:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Talking about risks, I'm going to take the risk to derail the topic, but... there are canon schools of magic in the Realms?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Sep 2017 19:12:45
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The Silver Sage
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  20:03:41  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I guess that Spellfire hurting Larloch is kinda logic. You said in a post that the Weave is the power of life/life itself. And Larloch, even if connected to the Weave, is a lich, the "un-life", so to speak. So, he maybe is connected to the Weave, and may depend on it to live, and the refined/depowered magic-energy that the Weave normally transmits to not hurt the normal, mortal spellcaster, may not affect him. But the pure essence of the Weave? That is another beast altogether.

Is like we humans. We need water to live, but too much water will kill us.



I disagree with the sentiment that Larloch is so heavily connected to the weave. If you'll recall after Karsis's folly and the death of Mystral, Larloch survived in Lich form. If he was so "locked into the weave" as you suggest, then he would have crumbled and died. The only explanation I can come up with for how Larloch survived the death of Mystral (and two other goddesses of magic) is that he learned to tap into raw magic and used it to maintain his phylactery.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  20:33:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was not my theory, though. I'm just trying find a logical solution for Markustay's theory

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2017 :  23:52:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Treating the weave as different templates to use for certain things makes all of this more viable when one goes to another world where the weave doesn't exist. Having worlds that share the same "edition" of D&D have the same base spell templates allows for casting without the weave readily enough. In fact, certain overgods may have an agreement that unless another overgod vehemently denies a template coming over, if a mage who came from somewhere with certain "templates" in play, they may allow them to work as local templates to said individual. Thus, a mage from Toril might go to Oerth and his spells work there, but a person from Oerth can't seem to duplicate it.... and the person from Toril smugly just says "you just don't understand the weave like me"... meanwhile its simply a permissions issue with the template. The Oerth gods may then review the template and decide to add it into their crystal sphere's "weave". They may even put some spins on the template, such that if someone from Toril ever comes over, the "spell works differently on Oerth".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
147 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  08:56:19  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is the Weave neutral, or do it favour certain magics? I had the impression the Weave don't favour light over shadow, or positive over negative. Though some, as Mythals draw on life, and most magic is from life, and positive energy.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  14:28:44  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Weave is Mystryl/Mystra, so the Weave isn't neutral. Mystra II showed us she can shutdown the Weave for certain kind of magics or for individual spellcasters if she want to (yeah, I know, was her 'first day', but is something that happened). And Mystryl was a tyrant (she purposefully hindered the efforts of spellcasters who didn't revered her). If Mystra wants it, the Weave can allow the usage of any kind of magic without hindrance, or can be useless for certain individuals/kinds of spells she don't likes.

So, the working of the Weave always has depended on how Mystryl/Mystra X behaves.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Sep 2017 14:32:45
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  16:32:40  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems to me that a lichs phylactery is powered by the soul trapped within which the lich sundered from his own body to allow him to persist.

The phylactery feeds on the soul and eventually consumes it which is why some liches crumble away. Others find new souls to imprison and become demiliches.



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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  16:47:17  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the weave. I take my idea from George Krashos.

The weave is a set of linked artefacts that contain the sentiences of a number of beings that maintain and monitor the "weave".

Its is really a gigantic spellpool (kinda like that organisation that allows members access to a spellpool). It converts raw magic into spells and allows those that tap it to cast those spells. Raw magic is of course highly toxic to leaser creatures and causes then to burn up on contact with it. The weave becomes a giant insulating blanket.

The only people in control of the weave are the sentiences inside it (the baetith plus many beings that merged with it over the millennia). The church of mystra may be able to contact some of these sentiences but there is no one that can control then or indeed knows them all.

No gods involved at all.

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
147 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  21:29:48  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I only meant Neutral as in Mystra being of the alignment, and the Weave is seemingly supporting all the spells in the basic rulebooks of 2. ed, 3rd ed, and I'm guessing 5th too. Which means; it seem to support both life spells as well as; darkness, necromancy and death. The Weave is still probably aligned towards life.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  21:53:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AFAIK, and I can be wrong here, the Weave originally supported all magic. The Shar seized part of it (The "Shadow Weave"), that is the part that conducts shadow magical energy. After that event, Mystra's Weave could only conduct the energy know as "arcane magic" and divine magic. Then, both Weaves were destroyed in the Spellplague, and the new Weave seems to be like the original version, the one that existed before Shar controlled her Shadow Weave. The current Weave can support again "all" kinds of magical energy.

I say "all", because the SCAG says that its posible that psionic "magic" could function independently of the Weave.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2017 :  22:20:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

AFAIK, and I can be wrong here, the Weave originally supported all magic. The Shar seized part of it (The "Shadow Weave"), that is the part that conducts shadow magical energy. After that event, Mystra's Weave could only conduct the energy know as "arcane magic" and divine magic. Then, both Weaves were destroyed in the Spellplague, and the new Weave seems to be like the original version, the one that existed before Shar controlled her Shadow Weave. The current Weave can support again "all" kinds of magical energy.

I say "all", because the SCAG says that its posible that psionic "magic" could function independently of the Weave.



There was shadow magic -- which the Weave could support -- and the Shadow Weave -- which was a separate power source entirely, that may or may not have been dependent on the Weave (the designers couldn't agree, and it changed from source to source and sometimes even from designer to designer), and which was less powerful than the Weave.

Between the confusion of the Shadow Weave and shadow magic, and the fact that no one at WotC could ever agree on the nature of the Shadow Weave, I regard the whole thing as a horrible mess that never should have existed in the first place.


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2017 :  02:29:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

As for the weave. I take my idea from George Krashos.

The weave is a set of linked artefacts that contain the sentiences of a number of beings that maintain and monitor the "weave".

Its is really a gigantic spellpool (kinda like that organisation that allows members access to a spellpool). It converts raw magic into spells and allows those that tap it to cast those spells. Raw magic is of course highly toxic to leaser creatures and causes then to burn up on contact with it. The weave becomes a giant insulating blanket.

The only people in control of the weave are the sentiences inside it (the baetith plus many beings that merged with it over the millennia). The church of mystra may be able to contact some of these sentiences but there is no one that can control then or indeed knows them all.

No gods involved at all.

Hmmmm... no 'gods', you say? And by 'gods', you mean estelar, right?

What you said here gave me a notion - what if those 'artifacts' aren't artifacts in the typical sense? What if they are more like 'relics'. Or remains...

Seems to me, if a whole bunch of powerful 'somethings' slammed into Toril (whole or in pieces), it might be a good way to start a 'network', using them as relays. You could probably build a nice magical 'web' of energy like that.

Faerzress, Elemental Nodes, Moonwells & 'Pools of..", Eldath's Gates, seems to me like we have a whole bunch of 'chunks of Raw magic' laying around the planet. Maybe the Road of Starlight & Shadows is like the 'Jeffries Tubes' in Star Trek - maintenance conduits originally used to keep the whole thing up-and-running. Seems to me, if you could gain control over a few of those 'access points', you could get your hands on a boatload of 'Raw' magic straight form the source. And I just happen to know two very powerful guys competing for just such things.

Laroch may not have needed the weave because of his research into portals/Gates. He's suckling at the teat of a primordial.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2017 :  16:11:39  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i believe George intimated at the nether scrolls containing the sentiences of the baetith stored within it (over time they would lose their sense of identity like everything removed from its body).

However the weave was actually made by the spellweavers that manipulated the sarrukh into creating it. So it is likely that the first and most powerful sentiences were the spellweavers that may have been absorbed completely into it during the grand conjunction (except for jergal).

Others have undoubtedly added their own sentiences into the weave (sylune being the latest).

Im not really going to dwell on primordials at all because i think the whole dawn war stuff is just misunderstood propaganda, myth, and legend. I doubt it even happened in this multiverse. However if any primordial was plugged in then maegara seems a likely candidate.

Im still having the spellweavers as the route power behind the weave. They helped make it, were the undisputed masters of it, then all disappeared in a ritual trying to elevate them to a higher state of existence. I reckon they got stuck in the weave and jergal tried to ring them back at ascore and failed because of karsus' spell.



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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2017 :  16:20:09  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way i see it with other magic.

Raw magic is used via rituals, you literally have to weave the magic into something usable. But its powerful and used to consume lesser beings on contact (until the weave became a protective barrier of sorts and allowed the lesser beings to thrive).

I likewise think faerzress is raw magic, as is the pools of radiance.

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